Pats sign JuJu Smith-Schuster

[lexrageorge]

I'm not sure I understand the comments about JuJu's snaps. Against the Jets, he played in 53 snaps, just 2 less than Parker, who led all Pats WR's. Bourne played 40 and Douglas played 17. Obviously, he didn't do a whole lot in those snaps, which I assume is the problem.

I don't think this current iteration of the Patriots has the luxury of benching a player due to a fumble for 3 quarters of a game. It's easier for Bill to do it when they've got Brady at the helm and guys like Edelman, Gronk, Amendola, James White at the skill positions. Sure, go ahead, teach a lesson and pound ball security into their head.

This is probably an indictment on the state of the offense more than anything but Douglas has shown he can get open and make plays. He's been arguably their second best WR on the year. He leads in yards per reception and is 2nd in success rate (tied with Parker). Pulling him off the field to teach him a lesson is also tying a hand behind the back of an otherwise already limited offense.

Completely agree with this take; moreover, as has been pointed out, Douglas continued to return punts that game, which is inherently more high-risk than holding onto the ball after a reception.

It was noted that the game plan in the 2nd half of the Dolphins involved a lot of two tight end sets and so typically only 2 receivers on the field. The team cannot afford to have players fumble the ball either, so Bill's track record has proven success in this area.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

We’re seeing a good receiver in a familiar system getting thrown to by an NFL QB. Not surprised he’s doing well.

The QB leading the league in INTs?

 

[Garshaparra]

I'm not sure I understand the comments about JuJu's snaps. Against the Jets, he played in 53 snaps, just 2 less than Parker, who led all Pats WR's.

No wonder BB left Juju in there over Douglas. You can't fumble the ball if you don't catch the ball. </smartguymeme>

 

[jtn46]

I kind of disagree about Douglas. I think he's been very impressive. He leads the team in yards per reception and seems like one of the few guys who can make a play with the ball in his hands on offense. They foolishly benched him in the Miami game after the fumble. They don't have the luxury of being able to bench guys for fumbling anymore and I think Douglas is clearly one of their more talented skill position players.

Why is it foolish to bench him?

 

[Super Nomario]

Honestly I think it was fine to let him walk. I liked Jakobi a lot... he wasn't really that great, he was an accumulator and generally trustworthy, but he didn't have much juice. The problem is more that Juju has not looked the same, the brought him in because they thought he had a better skillset to fit with Bourne, Parker and Thornton... he hasn't shown it yet.

The Juju over Meyers move looks bad because Juju has been bad, not because they are really missing Jakobi.

Jakobi had flaws, but so does JuJu. That's free agency: the great players (at least at "premium" positions like WR) don't typically hit FA.

It concerns me that they repeated the same mistake with JuJu that they did with Agholor: buying high on a guy after a good year, when he was available dirt cheap a year prior.

 

[Jungleland]

I think it's more forgivable with JuJu, who had had 4 good to excellent seasons out of 6, as opposed to Agholor who's previous high water mark was 768 yards before the good season in LV and had had 3 seasons worse than any JuJu year where he wasn't hurt.

I've gotta admit I'm pretty surprised by what we're seeing here - JJSS on less money than Meyers seemed like a slam dunk to me, but I'm starting to lose faith that he isn't cooked. Hard not to want to see Mac throw elsewhere right now, and while I envision they'll be used differently from each other it's hard not to want to see him sit a game if it means Boutte getting a shot.

 

[cshea]

Why is it foolish to bench him?

What does benching him accomplish? It teaches him a lesson? Does he learn more because he sat on the sideline for 3 quarters rather than just taking his beating in the film room and at practice the next week? I'm pretty sure players know they're not supposed to fumble in the NFL and as soon as the play was over Douglas realized he's got to be careful about guys coming from behind. I don't really see the need to take disciplinary action in-game unless it becomes a habitual problem.

Again, it was easy to do this when Brady was the QB and there were established, elite veterans on offense they could lean on while teaching a lesson to a young player who fumbled. Through 3 games Douglas is the only Patriot WR to have a reception of more than 20 yards. He leads the team in yards per reception, and that includes a -4 yard reception against Philly. He showed the ability to get open in training camp and very early in the regular season. I don't expect him to be the savior or the next Justin Jefferson or anything close to that but he does seem like a useful piece for an offense that is sorely lacking talent and playmaking.

Maybe it was scheme based with the 2 TE's they ran in the second half, which is what O'Brien has said. But Parker was coming off an injury so maybe there would've been a spot to work Douglas in. Who knows. I just think if they truly benched him for the fumble then all they really did was weaken and arleady weak offensive unit. As a middling .500 team that is ostensibly trying to compete for the playoffs in a loaded division/conference they can't afford to do that. He probably doesn't change the outcome of the game so I'm not blaming the loss on this but I think it could've been handled differently.

Sorry this is straying away from the Juju talk. Maybe merge to the pass catchers thread?

 

[Deathofthebambino]

JuJu had 4 good (pretty rosy IMO) to excellent seasons playing with a HOF QB, the best receiver in the NFL at the time (AB), a great running game. Those first two seasons in Pitt, Matavis Bryant and Darrius Heyward Bey also had 50 catches on those teams.

Then Big Ben got hurt, and Mason Rudolph/Devlin Hodges and finished with 42 catches in 12 games.

Big Ben returned for a final season, and he went back up to 97 catches, but only 831 yards. He became a slow possession guy, while Claypool and Johnson became their big play guys.

He then got hurt and missed most of the 2021 season.

He then went to KC, and had a decent year playing alongside the best QB and best TE in football, and still couldn't make big plays.


He's just another guy, he's not a #1. The Pats need a #1.

 

[Jimbodandy]

JuJu had 4 good (pretty rosy IMO) to excellent seasons playing with a HOF QB, the best receiver in the NFL at the time (AB), a great running game. Those first two seasons in Pitt, Matavis Bryant and Darrius Heyward Bey also had 50 catches on those teams.

Then Big Ben got hurt, and Mason Rudolph/Devlin Hodges and finished with 42 catches in 12 games.

Big Ben returned for a final season, and he went back up to 97 catches, but only 831 yards. He became a slow possession guy, while Claypool and Johnson became their big play guys.

He then got hurt and missed most of the 2021 season.

He then went to KC, and had a decent year playing alongside the best QB and best TE in football, and still couldn't make big plays.


He's just another guy, he's not a #1. The Pats need a #1.

It's easy to feel this more while watching Jimmy force the ball into Davante Adams last night. It didn't end up in a win for them, but it's nice having a guy who's basically always open.

 

[BaseballJones]

He's just another guy, he's not a #1. The Pats need a #1.

Agreed. Of course they didn’t sign him to be a #1 nor are they paying him like a #1. But your point still stands.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Agreed. Of course they didn’t sign him to be a #1 nor are they paying him like a #1. But your point still stands.

He's the 32nd highest paid WR in a league with 32 teams. The Chargers have 2 guys ahead of him, the Raiders have 3 guys ahead of him, Tampa has 2 guys ahead of him, Denver has 2 guys ahead of him, Dallas has two guys ahead of him...

There are only 26 other teams paying a wide receiver more than he's making.

He's the definition of a #1 by contract in the NFL, and by the Pats standards.

 

[jtn46]

What does benching him accomplish? It teaches him a lesson? Does he learn more because he sat on the sideline for 3 quarters rather than just taking his beating in the film room and at practice the next week? I'm pretty sure players know they're not supposed to fumble in the NFL and as soon as the play was over Douglas realized he's got to be careful about guys coming from behind. I don't really see the need to take disciplinary action in-game unless it becomes a habitual problem.

Again, it was easy to do this when Brady was the QB and there were established, elite veterans on offense they could lean on while teaching a lesson to a young player who fumbled. Through 3 games Douglas is the only Patriot WR to have a reception of more than 20 yards. He leads the team in yards per reception, and that includes a -4 yard reception against Philly. He showed the ability to get open in training camp and very early in the regular season. I don't expect him to be the savior or the next Justin Jefferson or anything close to that but he does seem like a useful piece for an offense that is sorely lacking talent and playmaking.

Maybe it was scheme based with the 2 TE's they ran in the second half, which is what O'Brien has said. But Parker was coming off an injury so maybe there would've been a spot to work Douglas in. Who knows. I just think if they truly benched him for the fumble then all they really did was weaken and arleady weak offensive unit. As a middling .500 team that is ostensibly trying to compete for the playoffs in a loaded division/conference they can't afford to do that. He probably doesn't change the outcome of the game so I'm not blaming the loss on this but I think it could've been handled differently.

Sorry this is straying away from the Juju talk. Maybe merge to the pass catchers thread?

If Douglas wants to be successful in the NFL he needs to play. Bill is sending the message that if he turns over the ball trying to do too much, he will not play. His ability to get open and to get yards after the catch don't matter if he turns over the ball. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but that's his teaching philosophy and it's toothless if he doesn't enforce it because of a lack of talent elsewhere (and for Belichick, ball security is an important aspect of how he evaluates players, there's a reason when Brady retired he didn't pursue say, Ryan Fitzpatrick.)

 

[BigSoxFan]

The Cowboys have a really good front 7 so Mac's ball will be coming out fast this week. This might be a JuJu week! I'm predicting 8 catches for 39 yards

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

He's the 32nd highest paid WR in a league with 32 teams. The Chargers have 2 guys ahead of him, the Raiders have 3 guys ahead of him, Tampa has 2 guys ahead of him, Denver has 2 guys ahead of him, Dallas has two guys ahead of him...

There are only 26 other teams paying a wide receiver more than he's making.

He's the definition of a #1 by contract in the NFL, and by the Pats standards.

I dont think using contracts is a great barometer. It's really more of an indicator of team needs, current/future market, etc. Not to mention it doesn't really do much to define how many "number 1 WRs" there are.

Unless we're cool with ignoring guys on their rookie contracts like Jefferson, Chase, Lamb, Jeudy, Waddle, London, Garrett Wilson, Aiyuk, Ridley, Pittman, Higgins, Devonta Smith, Pickens, Olave...

 

[BaseballJones]

I dont think using contracts is a great barometer. It's really more of an indicator of team needs, current/future market, etc. Not to mention it doesn't really do much to define how many "number 1 WRs" there are.

Unless we're cool with ignoring guys on their rookie contracts like Jefferson, Chase, Lamb, Jeudy, Waddle, London, Garrett Wilson, Aiyuk, Ridley, Pittman, Higgins, Devonta Smith, Pickens, Olave...

This is correct. JuJu was offered less than what Jakobi Meyers and Allen Lazard signed for. Neither of those guys is anywhere near a #1 WR by any reasonable measure.

They got JuJu because they thought he’d be helpful, and his contract was what the FA market was at the time. His contract doesn’t indicate that the Pats signed him to be a #1 WR. No way.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I dont think using contracts is a great barometer. It's really more of an indicator of team needs, current/future market, etc. Not to mention it doesn't really do much to define how many "number 1 WRs" there are.

Unless we're cool with ignoring guys on their rookie contracts like Jefferson, Chase, Lamb, Jeudy, Waddle, London, Garrett Wilson, Aiyuk, Ridley, Pittman, Higgins, Devonta Smith, Pickens, Olave...

if the conversation is about whether or not we're paying him like a #1, I don't know, I figure that a guys contract my be the only barometer we can use, no?

Where's the cutoff? He's getting like 10mil in cash this year between signing bonuses, salary and roster bonuses. If that number was 12.5mil, would he be getting paid like a #1? He makes more money than any receiver on like 6-7 other NFL teams, and he's the highest paid receiver on the Pats. It's the definition of paying him like a #1, at least with respect to how the Pats think they should pay a #1.

I'm not worried about guys on rookie deals. Guys like Hunter Renfrow will fall off the list and guys like Jefferson will climb up the list. It's how it works, but in the year 2023, the Pats #1 receiver based on what they've spent to go get him (never mind what they gave up in Jakobi) is Ju Ju Smith Schuster.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

This is correct. JuJu was offered less than what Jakobi Meyers and Allen Lazard signed for. Neither of those guys is anywhere near a #1 WR by any reasonable measure.

They got JuJu because they thought he’d be helpful, and his contract was what the FA market was at the time. His contract doesn’t indicate that the Pats signed him to be a #1 WR. No way.

So you think the Pats just paid a guy $10mil to be the #2 or #3 receiver spot on the team? I mean, if that's the case, why not give 1mil more and just keep Jakobi who was a perfectly fine #2 or #3? They literally gave JuJu a signing bonus that was 2.5mil higher than what the Raiders gave Jakobi.

It kind of comes all back to the same point though. The Raiders and Jets pay their #2 guy the same as the Pats pay their #1 guy, and we're wondering why we have shitty pass catchers that can't get open.

 

[azsoxpatsfan]

So you think the Pats just paid a guy $10mil to be the #2 or #3 receiver spot on the team? I mean, if that's the case, why not give 1mil more and just keep Jakobi who was a perfectly fine #2 or #3? They literally gave JuJu a signing bonus that was 2.5mil higher than what the Raiders gave Jakobi.

It kind of comes all back to the same point though. The Raiders and Jets pay their #2 guy the same as the Pats pay their #1 guy, and we're wondering why we have shitty pass catchers that can't get open.

If the Raiders and Jets pay their #2 the same as Pats pay JJSS, then it’s not crazy to think the pats paid him $10m to be the #2 or #3

 

[azsoxpatsfan]

I dont think using contracts is a great barometer. It's really more of an indicator of team needs, current/future market, etc. Not to mention it doesn't really do much to define how many "number 1 WRs" there are.

Unless we're cool with ignoring guys on their rookie contracts like Jefferson, Chase, Lamb, Jeudy, Waddle, London, Garrett Wilson, Aiyuk, Ridley, Pittman, Higgins, Devonta Smith, Pickens, Olave...

Yea, contracts are based so much on when guys hit free agency, plus there’s like, what, 10 true #1 guys in the league?

 

[BaseballJones]

So you think the Pats just paid a guy $10mil to be the #2 or #3 receiver spot on the team? I mean, if that's the case, why not give 1mil more and just keep Jakobi who was a perfectly fine #2 or #3? They literally gave JuJu a signing bonus that was 2.5mil higher than what the Raiders gave Jakobi.

It kind of comes all back to the same point though. The Raiders and Jets pay their #2 guy the same as the Pats pay their #1 guy, and we're wondering why we have shitty pass catchers that can't get open.

I don’t know why they chose JuJu over at Meyers. But JuJu’s contract is lower than Meyers as is so clearly, Belichick is, at most, paying JuJu to simply replace Meyers, and that is what the market bears. I think it is abundantly clear that they don’t view JuJu as a number one receiver, and they certainly did not offer him number one receiver money. But I agree with your overall point in that they certainly need to get better production out of that position, and they really do need a true number one receiver And I even think that at this point it’s clear they overpaid even for JuJu.

But let’s say they did would you suggest and paid Meyers an extra million per year more and kept him instead of signing JuJu. Would you then the arguing that they see Meyers as a true number one receiver? Or do you think that the Raiders view Meyers as a true number one receiver? He is after all making more money than JuJu, and you argued that JuJu’s contract makes him a number one receiver. so the same would hold for Meyers, right?

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

if the conversation is about whether or not we're paying him like a #1, I don't know, I figure that a guys contract my be the only barometer we can use, no?

Where's the cutoff? He's getting like 10mil in cash this year between signing bonuses, salary and roster bonuses. If that number was 12.5mil, would he be getting paid like a #1? He makes more money than any receiver on like 6-7 other NFL teams, and he's the highest paid receiver on the Pats. It's the definition of paying him like a #1, at least with respect to how the Pats think they should pay a #1.

I'm not worried about guys on rookie deals. Guys like Hunter Renfrow will fall off the list and guys like Jefferson will climb up the list. It's how it works, but in the year 2023, the Pats #1 receiver based on what they've spent to go get him (never mind what they gave up in Jakobi) is Ju Ju Smith Schuster.

I mean, I understand your point. But having to pay the market rate for someone can often simply be an indicator of a team need and what the market provides. It's not unusual to see teams in any sport overpay players based on need and a shallow free agent market.

Jujus contract is more representative of that than the idea the Patriots thought he was one of the top WR talents in football.

Do you think the Cowboys believe Brandin Cooks is one of the top 14 WRs in football? Or that he's their number 1 over Lamb? Do the Bengals think Trey Hendrickson is the 4th best defensive end in the NFL?

I'd argue that, if you're willing to be so flexible on important criteria - like the fact that half the teams in the league have #1s who arent paid as such - it would be pretty easy to extend that flexibility and say the Patriots signed JuJu as a high end #2 receiver instead of a bottom tier #1 receiver.

Which I think we all kind of assumed was where his skill level was.

 

[rodderick]

If the Raiders and Jets pay their #2 the same as Pats pay JJSS, then it’s not crazy to think the pats paid him $10m to be the #2 or #3

They paid Juju to be a key piece in their offense. He plays the position that O'Brien's scheme basically gravitates around. I think they brought him in as a guy who could be an improvement over the player who, by pretty much every measure, had been their leading receiver since 2020. I still think if they didn't think Juju was an upgrade over Meyers, they should have just re-signed Meyers. The difference in contract is absolutely negligible, especially considering Juju has more money guaranteed at the time of signing and received a bigger signing bonus. If they thought Meyers was better and went with Juju to penny pinch I go from thinking they made a mistake to believing them to be morons.

 

[IdiotKicker]

If JuJu actually produces like a #2, he’ll be fine. Let’s give this thing a few more weeks, but it’s a 3-year deal, so ultimately, by the time we get to week 10, he’s already 20% through the deal so there has to be meaningful progress in that direction by then. 5 catches for 40-60 yards a week is fine. 1 for 5 is not.

 

[Reverend]

So, coming into this season, who were the Pats planning for to be the #1 guy?

Like, let’s remove this just from JuJu for a moment; who?

 

[jezza1918]

So, coming into this season, who were the Pats planning for to be the #1 guy?

Like, let’s remove this just from JuJu for a moment; who?

I thought I read somewhere in this thread that it's actually been Bourne who is playing the position vacated by Meyers, so maybe him? Or this guy...

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

So, coming into this season, who were the Pats planning for to be the #1 guy?

Like, let’s remove this just from JuJu; who?

I think that's the issue. They didn't have one. And I don't think Juju changed that logic for them.

But you can't fit a square peg into a round hole. Bringing back Meyers doesn't change that math, he's not a true #1. There was no options for that role on the market, either.

You could argue that other teams have found those players in trades. DJ Moore, AJ Brown, Tyreek Hill. It seems like, if you aren't drafting them, you better try trading for one, because they aren't going to be hitting the market.

 

[azsoxpatsfan]

They paid Juju to be a key piece in their offense. He plays the position that O'Brien's scheme basically gravitates around. I think they brought him in as a guy who could be an improvement over the player who, by pretty much every measure, had been their leading receiver since 2020. I still think if they didn't think Juju was an upgrade over Meyers, they should have just re-signed Meyers. The difference in contract is absolutely negligible, especially considering Juju has more money guaranteed at the time of signing and received a bigger signing bonus. If they thought Meyers was better and went with Juju to penny pinch I go from thinking they made a mistake to believing them to be morons.

I may have misunderstood you, in which case I apologize. I do think they intended for him to be their #1 option. I took “they planned for him to be a #1” to mean they were expecting him to be true #1. To use a baseball analogy, I thought you meant they paid him to be an ace, not #1 on his staff

 

[Reverend]

I think that's the issue. They didn't have one. And I don't think Juju changed that logic for them.

But you can't fit a square peg into a round hole. Bringing back Meyers doesn't change that math, he's not a true #1. There was no options for that role on the market, either.

You could argue that other teams have found those players in trades. DJ Moore, AJ Brown, Tyreek Hill. It seems like, if you aren't drafting them, you better try trading for one, because they aren't going to be hitting the market.

Word. I was sorta wondering just that, which you keyed right in on: How much of this is semantic differences between the idiomatic “A #1 Receiver” and “the #1, i.e. top receiver on the Patriots.”

Which raises a lot of questions about unit composition, yeah? Like, if you’re not going to go out and get a top receiver, how much does it make sense to pay for a crew of complementary lesser receivers? I obviously don’t know the answers to these questions. But, as per the conversation going in across threads, I wonder what the minimum That Guy who the QB can generally count on is as a precondition for success, i.e. if you don’t have at least one guy at that level, what are you even doing and how do you even expect to know what you have at other positions?

 

[BigSoxFan]

It's hard to really separate DJ Moore's value as part of the broader deal between Chicago and Carolina. What do we think his comparable standalone trade value was? A 3rd? I really like him. Guy is such an underrated WR and now is stuck in Justin Fields purgatory after being there with Baker, Darnold, etc.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Word. I was sorta wondering just that, which you keyed right in on: How much of this is semantic differences between the idiomatic “A #1 Receiver” and “the #1, i.e. top receiver on the Patriots.”

Which raises a lot of questions about unit composition, yeah? Like, if you’re not going to go out and get a top receiver, how much does it make sense to pay for a crew of complementary lesser receivers? I obviously don’t know the answers to these questions. But, as per the conversation going in across threads, I wonder what the minimum That Guy who the QB can generally count on is as a precondition for success, i.e. if you don’t have at least one guy at that level, what are you even doing and how do you even expect to know what you have at other positions?

I looked back at the top 5-10 offenses since 2018 somewhere here recently. Without a true difference maker you’re looking at 10-15% of those teams. Most had a pro bowl level QB or close to it. All those teams had better receiving options than the Pats have now.

As for their number 1 it’s clearly Parker or Bourne and I think Parker has the edge as the guy who is almost always in 2 receiver sets.

Here is an exercise: look at the 2022 list of wide receivers by yards per game and total yards. Then ask yourself is either Parker or Bourne better than this guy? You get into the late 30s or 40s. Now to be fair some of those guys were, like Parker and Bourne, a product of volume. But talent wise Parker and Bourne to me are somewhere in the 40 to 70 range. They do not consistently get open either. Bourne has good RAC skills and Parker can do some contested catch stuff. That’s not how you want to live or operate. You can scheme up things but defenses can also adjust to that. If the defense shows zone but calls man and you need to complete a pass someone has to win their route. Who is doing that here?

 

[Reverend]

I looked back at the top 5-10 offenses since 2018 somewhere here recently. Without a true difference maker you’re looking at 10-15% of those teams. Most had a pro bowl level QB or close to it. All those teams had better receiving options than the Pats have now.

As for their number 1 it’s clearly Parker or Bourne and I think Parker has the edge as the guy who is almost always in 2 receiver sets.

So… this is bad?

That sounds bad.

 

[rodderick]

I just want to know what the threshold is for a "true difference maker" because I see like Edelman thrown in that category constantly and as much as I love the guy, I don't think he fits the definition, for instance.

 

[tims4wins]

I just want to know what the threshold is for a "true difference maker" because I see like Edelman thrown in that category constantly and as much as I love the guy, I don't think he fits the definition, for instance.

Was having this same thought earlier today. Throw prime Troy Brown or Edelman on this team and it is better. But how much better?

 

[SMU_Sox]

The other issue is speed at WR. It’s hard to win vertically with these guys. Parker is supposed to be your deep threat because of his contested catches ability but it hasn’t translated. Bourne can’t do that either.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I just want to know what the threshold is for a "true difference maker" because I see like Edelman thrown in that category constantly and as much as I love the guy, I don't think he fits the definition, for instance.

It's one of the problems with the whole process people go through... if a guy has great production he's a difference maker (even if he's got a great situation/QB), if he doesn't he isn't (despite bad QB play or situation). It's all circular to an extent. Now, I don't think anyone on the Pats is one of those guys, but the edges get real fuzzy fast.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Edelman was a cut below but he’s still a top 30ish kind of receiver. Edelman could run routes and get separation. So could Troy. Those guys were better at that than anyone is on this team and it isn’t even close.

 

[Reverend]

I just want to know what the threshold is for a "true difference maker" because I see like Edelman thrown in that category constantly and as much as I love the guy, I don't think he fits the definition, for instance.

Was having this same thought earlier today. Throw prime Troy Brown or Edelman on this team and it is better. But how much better?

It’s a good point and distinction to think about. Personally, that’s why I sorta differentiate between “True #1” and “That Guy.”

Edelman and Brown will get you that first down.

Remember when Brady was semi-mocked for the dink-and-dunk offense? But they got on base first downs.

 

[SMU_Sox]

It's one of the problems with the whole process people go through... if a guy has great production he's a difference maker (even if he's got a great situation/QB), if he doesn't he isn't (despite bad QB play or situation). It's all circular to an extent. Now, I don't think anyone on the Pats is one of those guys, but the edges get real fuzzy fast.

That is where film study comes into play and some advanced stats like from Reception Perception and SIS that can measure separation ability. But mostly film study.

 

[tims4wins]

The other issue is speed at WR. It’s hard to win vertically with these guys. Parker is supposed to be your deep threat because of his contested catches ability but it hasn’t translated. Bourne can’t do that either.

One of the plays that I bet Mac would like to have back was in the first quarter, he had a real chance to hit Parker for a TD and he overshot it. Should have given Parker more of a chance. The wind probably played a factor, I think it was at his back and carried it. But still.

Edit: it was the opening drive, the 3rd down play from the Jets 29

 

[Cellar-Door]

The other issue is speed at WR. It’s hard to win vertically with these guys. Parker is supposed to be your deep threat because of his contested catches ability but it hasn’t translated. Bourne can’t do that either.

I think Thornton is the deep threat, Parker they don't seem to be playing him like a deep threat, ADOT for Bourne and Douglas (and Boutte in very limited action) is quite a bit higher. It seems like they are using Bourne on the most deep balls, and he stinks at them (though also, going back to when they had Agholor who is legit good at that 1 thing, Mac is not a great deep ball thrower overall). I'd like to see Thornton eat into Bourne's snaps starting week 5.

 

[rodderick]

Edelman was a cut below but he’s still a top 30ish kind of receiver. Edelman could run routes and get separation. So could Troy. Those guys were better at that than anyone is on this team and it isn’t even close.

I think Troy was that guy in 00-02, but some notches below for the remainder of his career.

 

[Reverend]

Edelman was a cut below but he’s still a top 30ish kind of receiver. Edelman could run routes and get separation. So could Troy. Those guys were better at that than anyone is on this team and it isn’t even close.

Jinx.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Put it this way… I can watch the all-22 of the Pats and the Fins and know that the WRs on one team are clearly a tier or two or three below the guys on the other side I’m watching. That was largely the same for last year too.

 

[8slim]

So, coming into this season, who were the Pats planning for to be the #1 guy?

Like, let’s remove this just from JuJu for a moment; who?

Like others said, the Pats didn't plan on having a receiver who would occupy an opposing DC's game planning all week, or necessitate a team's top CB being stapled to him.

Seems like they've planned to have 3 or 4 somewhat interchangeable WRs, who all do different things well, and who would be a "#1" each week depending on matchups.

I just want to know what the threshold is for a "true difference maker" because I see like Edelman thrown in that category constantly and as much as I love the guy, I don't think he fits the definition, for instance.

Per my post to Rev, Edelman fits that definition because a DC had to account for him at all times. Obviously he wasn't Moss, but he could go for 12/150 if the opposing D botched how to handle him. I don't see anyone on this team who has that ability.

 

[azsoxpatsfan]

Not really the topic but Edelman had such a killer instinct/fearlessness that I really believe he’s extremely underrated and there’s only a handful of guys I would’ve taken over him. What is this slander

 

[SMU_Sox]

Jinx.

I owe you a Pepsi (not Coke. Buy Pepsi!)

Even if we discount Brown after 02 they had Branch. Again every time we look at this or do this exercise we will see the early teams had better skill position players.

Brady elevating people is a little bit mythologized here. And it’s not the way you’d think. Because the team had better primary and secondary options the tertiary options (of which there were many) had better matchups. It’s not like Brady could make a shitty player good.

 

[rodderick]

Like others said, the Pats didn't plan on having a receiver who would occupy an opposing DC's game planning all week, or necessitate a team's top CB being stapled to him.

Seems like they've planned to have 3 or 4 somewhat interchangeable WRs, who all do different things well, and who would be a "#1" each week depending on matchups.


Per my post to Rev, Edelman fits that definition because a DC had to account for him at all times. Obviously he wasn't Moss, but he could go for 12/150 if the opposing D botched how to handle him. I don't see anyone on this team who has that ability.

It's funny, I was actually looking at some Edelman stats and he only had 8 regular season games with more than 9 catches with the Pats. I would've bet my house on the over there.

 

[Dogman]

I firmly believe BB understands the WR FA class of 2024 is worth waiting for instead of spending big money on a FA prior building up his defense AND developing his QB. I think BB did the same thing with the Patricia OC role as he wanted BoB and knew he would need to wait a year to get him so he focused on building his defense. Now that BoB is in place, we see Mac developing his medium route accuracy throws, his receiver progressions, and his presnap reads/blocking calls. BB did the same thing with Brady and aside from immediate success, he was building the team the exact same way. Build defense, execute with 3-4 #2 and #3 WR, decent blocking and pass catching TE, and a solid running game. The OL is not where it needs to be yet but I think the OL has been better in 2023 than 2022.

Throw in the WR FA 2024 class and the additional cap numbers and I feel this is what he is doing.

2024 WR FA
Evans
Higgins
Chark
Ridley
Among other names.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/wide-receiver//

 

[SMU_Sox]

The thing with Brady and his receivers were that yes Brady would give them an accurate pass but the receiver had to be in sync with Brady on what route they needed to run or convert and where they needed to be. It takes two. To me Brady elevated his OL more than his WRs. He called better protections, identified blitzers, and most importantly knew the limitations of his protection to get the ball out quickly.

 

[azsoxpatsfan]

I firmly believe BB understands the WR FA class of 2024 is worth waiting for instead of spending big money on a FA prior building up his defense AND developing his QB. I think BB did the same thing with the Patricia OC role as he wanted BoB and knew he would need to wait a year to get him so he focused on building his defense. Now that BoB is in place, we see Mac developing his medium route accuracy throws, his receiver progressions, and his presnap reads. BB did the same thing with Brady and aside from immediate success, he was building the team the exact same way. Build defense, execute with 3-4 #2 and #3 WR, decent blocking and pass catching TE, and a solid running game. The OL is not where it needs to be yet but I think the OL has been better in 2023 than 2022.

Throw in the WR FA 2024 class and the additional cap numbers and I feel this is what he is doing.

2024 WR FA
Evans
Higgins
Chark
Ridley
Among other names.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/wide-receiver//

I know nothing about what they would cost, but I would take Higgins, then Ridley, then Evans, then Chark