Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
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uncannymanny said:
That is utterly despicable.
incognito drove him off the team, bragged to people that he "broke Jmart," then almost immediately began texting him in order to manipulate him. (And later to use those texts to manipulate the press into crafting stories that suggested responsibility for everything may rest with Martin.) And all the while, he was sharing his true feelings about Martin with others in an effort to ensure that Martin would never be welcomed back.
Incognito is a bigger piece of shit than I could have ever imagined was true.
Agreed. But let's not go overboard – Philbin didn't exactly cover himself in glory here by being completely ignorant of what was going in his locker room.soxfan121 said:
This is also a huge vindication, sf121, of what you've been saying all along: that regardless of what extent to which Martin played along, this was bullying, period. The number of people in here who kept saying we were "rushing to judgment" and that there had to be some "angle" Martin was playing was, to me, disappointing given the generally high level of discourse on this board.
At the end of the day I don't care who wins and loses here. I just hope this and the Sam situation just result in a better, less destructive culture in the game.
RO, I was just coming in to post that. Woody needs to step away from Twitter right now. He's all over the place.
Damien Woody @damienwoody 1h
You talk about my mama, we're scrapping!
Damien Woody @damienwoody 2h
It's open season on NFL locker rooms
Damien Woody @damienwoody 1h
No way an OL coach wouldn't know what's going on. We spent more time together than any other group on a team
Damien Woody @damienwoody 14m
I would LOVE for someone to get 53 guys in the locker room to behave in this wonderful 'utopia' that some are speaking of
Damien Woody @damienwoody 1h
You talk about my mama, we're scrapping!
Damien Woody @damienwoody 2h
It's open season on NFL locker rooms
Damien Woody @damienwoody 1h
No way an OL coach wouldn't know what's going on. We spent more time together than any other group on a team
Damien Woody @damienwoody 14m
I would LOVE for someone to get 53 guys in the locker room to behave in this wonderful 'utopia' that some are speaking of
Shelterdog said:
For your $10, find me a post where I said he's a good guy. He can be an a-hole AND Martin's behavior can be suspect, particularly in the eye of NFL players. See Woody on Twitter. It's not either/or. There is nuance.
Well, this is one way of reading the report, I guess.
Damien Woody @damienwoody 1m
So much about the NFL is built on mental toughness. I can't see this report not having a negative effect on J. Martin
Damien Woody @damienwoody 1m
So much about the NFL is built on mental toughness. I can't see this report not having a negative effect on J. Martin
I take the opposite view re. Philbin. He is paid 7 figures+ to know what the fuck is going on in the locker room he is paid to lead. This level of ignorance should be a fireable offense for the leader of a team. Part of being in charge is being accountable. Frankly, Philbin should resign today after reading this and seeing that Coaches he hired and team leaders he designated were participating in these activities that were so detrimental to both the well being of players on the team and the success of the team as a whole. His verified claim of ignorance is either an indictment of his leadership ability or a confirmation of his dishonestysoxfan121 said:
Pouncey seems like he finds the biggest asshole and follows him like a puppy. He was allegedly involved in the altercation/necklace snatching at club in 2007 that led to a shooting of 2 people possibly by Hernandez and/or Reggie Nelson. There were also rumors of Hernandez running guns and Mike Pouncey being involved. Now he's definitively shown as Incognito's toady in humiliation and harassment. He was also Incognito's biggest defender. Seems like a classic wannabe tough guy.
It's pretty convenient that the Dolphins HC, front office, major coordinators, and the NFL at large are the only ones to really escape blame on this one.
I agree with the general consensus here and actually, for the most part, buy what the report is giving us. But at some level, the Dolphins and NFL on a macro level have to take some responsibility for what went down. The NFL has had egg on its face for two MAJOR locker-room based issues (the Bounty Scandal in NO and now Martin in Miami) recently and, in most other fields, I think a company or boss would own a lot of the responsibility if one of their employees was pushed to this level on this public a stage.
I agree with the general consensus here and actually, for the most part, buy what the report is giving us. But at some level, the Dolphins and NFL on a macro level have to take some responsibility for what went down. The NFL has had egg on its face for two MAJOR locker-room based issues (the Bounty Scandal in NO and now Martin in Miami) recently and, in most other fields, I think a company or boss would own a lot of the responsibility if one of their employees was pushed to this level on this public a stage.
Gunfighter 09 said:
After spening a bit more time with this, I kind of agree with GF09, in the sense that there are no good outcomes for Philbin. Not knowing - especially when one of your coaches is involved - is almost the worst outcome.
Regardless, I should make clear that my original comment was not targeting SF121 in any case.
I've said before that GF09 is one of my favorite posters on the board, partly because we think so differently about things that I learn something new and partly because he is SO.FUCKING.CONSISTENT. To wit:
First, I'm sending my $10 to GF09. Sorry Shelterdog....his is a more complete, accurate prediction.
Second, I totally understand why you (GF09) would be most upset with the failure of leadership. But I think that after reading the Wells report, it's a valid to infer that Philbin was uninformed because Jim Turner failed at his job. Turner really comes off like a massively incompetent jerk in the report and it's easy to see that Turner would not have reported any of his observations to Philbin because Turner actively agreed with Incognito/Jerry/Pouncey's methods.
Gunfighter 09 said:
Gunfighter 09 said:
First, I'm sending my $10 to GF09. Sorry Shelterdog....his is a more complete, accurate prediction.
Second, I totally understand why you (GF09) would be most upset with the failure of leadership. But I think that after reading the Wells report, it's a valid to infer that Philbin was uninformed because Jim Turner failed at his job. Turner really comes off like a massively incompetent jerk in the report and it's easy to see that Turner would not have reported any of his observations to Philbin because Turner actively agreed with Incognito/Jerry/Pouncey's methods.
Ben Volin: "Who knows what to think about this anymore except this is a story that Philbin wishes would go away, but won't"
Really, Ben? Who knows what to think? Here's what to think: Incognito and crew were first-class jerks.
Really, Ben? Who knows what to think? Here's what to think: Incognito and crew were first-class jerks.
Nobody has ever confused us with the Japanese, whose corporate chiefs, politicians and so forth routinely resign for things they didn't know about but brought disgrace to the company, government and so forth. So to this extent, the NFL pretty accurately mirrors the rest of our society.
But anyone advocating the application of a should-have-known-and-therefore-responsible standard to Philbin must recognize that it probably ensnares BB on AH as well. Not responsible for the murder in any legal sense, but responsible for having a very bad guy on his roster. It is undisputed that AH actually traveled to the Combine one year, when he sought BB out and told him that his life was in endanger from "associates". Anyone who had even a passing familiarity with AH's background knew this was very bad news indeed.
So I'd be interested in GF's views on the scope of accountability on that one.
I know these guys get paid a lot, but tend to draw the line of responsibility at things they actually know about, or were so obvious that denials of knowledge are not plausible.
But anyone advocating the application of a should-have-known-and-therefore-responsible standard to Philbin must recognize that it probably ensnares BB on AH as well. Not responsible for the murder in any legal sense, but responsible for having a very bad guy on his roster. It is undisputed that AH actually traveled to the Combine one year, when he sought BB out and told him that his life was in endanger from "associates". Anyone who had even a passing familiarity with AH's background knew this was very bad news indeed.
So I'd be interested in GF's views on the scope of accountability on that one.
I know these guys get paid a lot, but tend to draw the line of responsibility at things they actually know about, or were so obvious that denials of knowledge are not plausible.
Well now that we have more information, it is clear that Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey are, at best idiots and more likely shitty people.
It will be interesting to see how not just the Dolphins but also the league responds to this report. Will there be true cultural changes or will they simply be cosmetic in nature.?
It will be interesting to see how not just the Dolphins but also the league responds to this report. Will there be true cultural changes or will they simply be cosmetic in nature.?
dcmissle said:
To the extent that Philbin is being held responsible for having a known asshole like Incognito on his roster, I would agree.
To the extent that Philbin is being held responsible for the out-of-control culture of abuse that Incognito seems to have fostered in the Dolphins locker room and which included one of Philbin's assistant coaches, the comparison is ridiculous.
dcmissle said:
AH did not murder anybody in the locker room (although based on the stories he may or may not have tried to murder Welker). It's a little different when something happens inside your office, vs. outside your office.
I think it is tough for the Dolphins staff o emerge from this. Even though it is the pros, in a way guy get recruited. This looks like a poorly run team. Guys are partying all the time, harassing the staff, at least one coach is in on the harassment of a player.
I think Incognito needs to find Jesus and get reborn before training camp.
I think Incognito needs to find Jesus and get reborn before training camp.
dcmissle said:
Not that it matters--comparing to RI's behavior towards teammates at the Dolphins facility to Hernandez's midnight crime sprees is like comparing apple and baboons-but the fact you say is undisputed is completely. Specifically by Jon Kraft on behalf of the organization. http://deadspin.com/patriots-president-belichick-didnt-tell-hernandez-to-1226694308
"It said that Aaron had told Bill that he feared for his life and that his life was in danger and Bill's response was to tell him to get a safe house and lie low. I actually saw Bill—I think I would've known if that had ever happened—but I saw Bill today and I said, 'Bill, did Aaron ever tell you his life was in danger?' And he's like, "Absolutely not."
If a player had told Bill his life was in danger, Bill would say we're calling [team director of security] Mark Briggs, we're calling the authorities."
But hey you got your undisputed fact from Ron Borges so I'm sure it's right.
In terms of the legality of what occurred, Martin has a number of different options for bringing suit, including theories of respondeat superior or negligent hiring/retention.
In terms of moral culpability, I think Philbin has some share of blame to shoulder. Ultimately it's his responsibility to put competent people in place *and* to oversee them. Out of control harassment of at least 3 individuals went on for over a year. Unless Philbin's job description keeps him out of the locker-room and away from the players, I don't see how he gets a completely free pass.
In terms of moral culpability, I think Philbin has some share of blame to shoulder. Ultimately it's his responsibility to put competent people in place *and* to oversee them. Out of control harassment of at least 3 individuals went on for over a year. Unless Philbin's job description keeps him out of the locker-room and away from the players, I don't see how he gets a completely free pass.
Rovin Romine said:
I'm interested in your take on Incognito's future legal options. I have a strong feeling he will be released by the Dolphins and that he will not be invited to a training camp/get another opportunity elsewhere.
First, he was suspended far longer than the CBA allows (4 games, maximum, for "conduct detrimental to the team"). Second, he allowed an extension to that suspension (with pay? without pay?). Third, he's apparently an angry, impulsive individual (based on his tweets from the other day) who thinks he's been screwed over here. Could he (successfully) sue Martin? The NFL? The Dolphins? Jim Turner?
soxfan121 said:
I don't really do employment law, and I'm not familiar with the NFL CBA. That said, if there was a CBA violation, RI could certainly sue.* Basically it's like any other broken employment contract - the language of the CBA would control. If there's CBA language regarding "allowing" an extension it would control - otherwise you look to cases that have dealt with this kind of situation before, and then on to general employment/contract law.
Beyond that RI has a number of arguments he can make that Martin/the Dolphins harmed him by interfering with his employment or reputation, or causing him distress. Whether or not he can *prove* any of those hypothetical claims is another issue. It's hard to see how Martin himself is in the wrong here (unless RI's potential claim is that Martin is lying.) It's also hard to see how RI has a claim against the Dolphins (unless RI's potential claim is that he was ordered to bully Martin.) However, there's a general legal principle that you can't get certain kinds of relief if you have "unclean hands." It depends on what RI would hypothetically plead (and against whom) but, usually, willing participants in wrongful actions aren't allowed to then benefit from those actions.
Edit: * meaning he has a claim. The CBA probably would send him into arb on his salary issue before allowing an independent lawsuit filed in a court. Other claims (in the second paragraph) would probably be brought forward as a lawsuit in a regular court of law.
Don't see how BB/AH is at all like this. Full culpability for not getting the diligence on Hernandez correct and handicapping the team this year with the cap charge, but this situation in Miami seems like a completely different animal. From that report, doesnt seem like "Incognito bullies Martin" is the real scope of things.
Whoever would compare the 2 situations has their head in the trees. There is no way the Patriots could have known about AH because it was all on his own time while Martin situation was right in their building/under their nose. A COACH WAS INVOLVED IN THIS!!! There is no way the two are comparable. Do people want NFL teams spying on all their players? Jesus.Stitch01 said:
Point taken from Shelter that Jon Kraft disputes AH telling BB his life was in danger. Did Jon dispute the contention that BB told AH he was one mis-step from being cut?
In terms of organizational moral responsibility -- NOT potential legal liability, I stress -- the distinction between bad behavior directed toward teammates and the same directed toward outsiders is irrelevant in my view, particularly since Goodell has often sanctioned the latter. I have a duty to ferret out if you are abusing a colleague -- but not if you are gangbanging. Really?
In any case, as I stressed in the AH instance, I wouldn't hold BB accountable for what he didn't know, nor would I hold Philbin. So far as we know, this abuse did not run rampant throughout the team. It appears confned to a few players on the o-line and their position coach.
In terms of organizational moral responsibility -- NOT potential legal liability, I stress -- the distinction between bad behavior directed toward teammates and the same directed toward outsiders is irrelevant in my view, particularly since Goodell has often sanctioned the latter. I have a duty to ferret out if you are abusing a colleague -- but not if you are gangbanging. Really?
In any case, as I stressed in the AH instance, I wouldn't hold BB accountable for what he didn't know, nor would I hold Philbin. So far as we know, this abuse did not run rampant throughout the team. It appears confned to a few players on the o-line and their position coach.
Its pretty undisputed that Philbin is more accountable for what happened in his locker room than BB is for what AH did in his personal time. Not that Philbin deserves to fall on his sword or anything. I expect he will take accountability, clean out some of the players involved as well as the OL coach, and that he has already made it clear that this sort of behavior is not to be tolerated.
dcmissle said:
You are ignoring the fact that one of the activities is happening within your organization in an area you can control. (And apparently involved one of your coaches.) The other is happening outside your organization and you can't do anything about it other than to rid yourself of the offender if you find out that it is happening.
Of course the moral responsibility of the organization is greater in the former case than it is in the latter.
I have an incredibly hard time believing that you are asking serious questions.
I'm curious - if it came out that Josh McDaniels was involved in AH's gun running and murder cover-up, or even that he was in the car, would you feel differently? Because, to me, that's the level of coach involvement in the Miami situation.dcmissle said:
So TJ Lang writes:
@TJLang70: Please don't stereotype NFL players for what's going on with Miami. That type of stuff is not common in other locker rooms.
And the classic response:
@yej1983: @TJLang70 I played football from 10 yrs old to high school and you tell me this stuff doesn't go on in the locker, you need a reality check
@TJLang70: Please don't stereotype NFL players for what's going on with Miami. That type of stuff is not common in other locker rooms.
And the classic response:
@yej1983: @TJLang70 I played football from 10 yrs old to high school and you tell me this stuff doesn't go on in the locker, you need a reality check
Wow, that report makes Incognito (and Pouncey and Turner) seem even worse than I expected. Its completely nuts that he still doesn't seem to get how bad this is. "Stop the hate." Really dude? Three days ago he's tweeting about how he's gonna bury Martin, the dude is bragging that Martin wants to kill himself, and then the truth comes out and shows Icognito to be an abject scumbag, and he thinks fucking Valentine's Day is gonna save him? He's delusional, and I'd be seriously surprised if he ever played again.
Reading the report and if you are familiar with some of the quotes its pretty obvious who "Player A" is...
Not gonna print it here though.
Not gonna print it here though.
lithos2003 said:
Well that certainly would take care of a succession issue that troubles some people, though I think the jury is out on Josh. My answer is, of course.
I'm interested in fairness and proportionality. Having been responsible for people, it is understandable to me how Philbin and the FO were not aware of this. And again, it is not as if this pattern of behavior infected the whole team. This case, in other words, is pretty far removed from the bounty problem in New Orleans, which I recall involved everyone on defense because the bounties were discussed openly in team meetings.
An interesting aspect of this is how infrequently it happens. When Dez Bryant openly complained about carrying someone's shoulder pads, it made national news. More frequently, you hear stories about rookies being forced to pick up dinner tabs for astronomical amounts -- or being pressured to buy gifts or pay for trips. That's an area where I think we will see a crackdown. Maybe, also, teams will be required to appoint someone out of the chain of command to hear complaints like Martin's.
But what else, practically, needs to be done? Is there going to be a prohibition of epithets, racial, sexual or whatever? Highly doubt it. Are they going to outlaw rookies being forced to sing songs at camp or buy donuts? Again, highly doubtful. This case really appears to be an outlier.
Rotoworld via the Miami Herald already outed the name
http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/02/14/3935781/extra-points-wells-blows-the-lid.html
http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/02/14/3935781/extra-points-wells-blows-the-lid.html
PBDWake said:
Well, there really are multiple schools of thought here. I want to be crystal clear that now that the report is out, I feel strongly that Martin was a victim here (and I was one of those upthread who didn't want to leap to that conclusion based on what we knew at the time) and that Incognito, Pouncey and Jerry, amongst others, were clearly bullies.
However, you would be naive to think that there are not an insignificant number of players, coaches, executives, media members and fans who still see nothing wrong with what those guys did. It falls under the locker-room culture argument (that is even alluded to in the report) and the fact that these guys are asked to go out and put their bodies on the line every week to win and entertain. Again, I am not excusing or condoning the behavior or any apologists. I am simply saying that no matter what the report says, there are those who will ultimately pin this on Martin's sensitivity or "softness".
Hell, there are many here who use the term "soft" in the pejorative sense when talking about athletes on the teams we follow.
