I find it hard to imagine that a guy who has spent his entire life obsessed with football history would not care about setting the all time wins record.
This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots
- Thread starter DennyDoyle'sBoil
- Start date
- Status
I'd still take our coach. We need a new GM and maybe OC. It's tough to grade O'Brien because of what he has to work with, but if a new GM has an OF they love I'l all ears.
If you waived everyone on the offensive side of the ball. who is actually claimed? Bourne and maybe Zeke and maybe Rham? Other than that we have about 8 guys would literally wouldn't make any roster in the NFL. 50% of the team is void of any NFL talent.
If you waived everyone on the offensive side of the ball. who is actually claimed? Bourne and maybe Zeke and maybe Rham? Other than that we have about 8 guys would literally wouldn't make any roster in the NFL. 50% of the team is void of any NFL talent.
Yeah, but if they just play down to their talent level every week, how long does it go before we start saying coaching isn't making any difference? It's been a while now since they can't make up for talent deficiencies. The Browns just beat the 49ers while starting PJ Walker, it's the NFL, sometimes you beat better teams even if by accident. Not the Patriots.
What about this current team says "well coached"?
Edit: Let's think bigger.
What aspects of the Patriots football operation have been well-run over the past 3-4 years?
Edit: Let's think bigger.
What aspects of the Patriots football operation have been well-run over the past 3-4 years?
Last edited:
Another week, another segment on T&R of Bob Socci crapping all over Bill and the team. I continue to find it stunning coming from such a company guy.
They've pieced together excellent defenses despite struggling offenses, they've churned out CBs in particular in a way that is really impressive.
The offense as been a mess, but the defense for this team has been very good.
It seems pretty clear that Bill is struggling with both the personnel and coaching side of building a new offense, he needed to go outside his comfort zone and didn't. However the offensive struggles shouldn't make us completely ignore what they have been doing on defense the last few years
The Parker extension might be one of the most baffling and terrible personnel moves BB has made in his entire run with the team - even before his drop yesterday.
Letting Meyers go and bringing in JuJu at least seems based on some logic. Meyers is doing what he does well with Las Vegas and benefits from having Adams drawing coverage away from him. JuJu, at least in theory, would be a better fit for BOB’s scheme, has (historically) been a better big play guy via YAC where Meyers offers almost nothing in that regard. Neither are decent red zone targets but JuJu was potentially a part of the answer to the “how do the Pats generate more big plays” question. Now obviously JuJu is either in steep decline or his knee is toast (but not toast enough to fail a physical) because he looks awful. But I can sort of see the logic in replacing Meyers with Juju
Parker, on the other hand, an almost 31 year old receiver who can’t stay healthy, has only one or two good - not even very good - seasons of production and only “specializes” in things Mac struggles with (deep sideline routes and contested catches) was a terrible candidate for an extension. How BB deemed him worthy of $9M in new guaranteed money after last year’s performance is beyond me. Yes, WR are expensive and it’s hardly a cap killing amount of dead money but still completely undeserved. Between his age and injuries, it was unlikely he’d be able to repeat last year’s performance which was hardly inspiring. Just an awful usage of money
Letting Meyers go and bringing in JuJu at least seems based on some logic. Meyers is doing what he does well with Las Vegas and benefits from having Adams drawing coverage away from him. JuJu, at least in theory, would be a better fit for BOB’s scheme, has (historically) been a better big play guy via YAC where Meyers offers almost nothing in that regard. Neither are decent red zone targets but JuJu was potentially a part of the answer to the “how do the Pats generate more big plays” question. Now obviously JuJu is either in steep decline or his knee is toast (but not toast enough to fail a physical) because he looks awful. But I can sort of see the logic in replacing Meyers with Juju
Parker, on the other hand, an almost 31 year old receiver who can’t stay healthy, has only one or two good - not even very good - seasons of production and only “specializes” in things Mac struggles with (deep sideline routes and contested catches) was a terrible candidate for an extension. How BB deemed him worthy of $9M in new guaranteed money after last year’s performance is beyond me. Yes, WR are expensive and it’s hardly a cap killing amount of dead money but still completely undeserved. Between his age and injuries, it was unlikely he’d be able to repeat last year’s performance which was hardly inspiring. Just an awful usage of money
The rebuild of the defense, obviously set back by injury now, has been pretty successful. They have a good secondary and a solid front 7 despite having to replace a number of declining, retired or departed key pieces. In 2019 they had Hightower, Gilmore, McCourty, JC Jackson, Chung and Van Noy as the core of a unit which was 1st in both yards and points allowed. Other key pieces like Harmon, Collins, J.McCourty all moved on as well. Other than Guy, Wise, Bentley and Jonathan Jones, all of the starters and key role players have turned over and it’s still a top half of the league (if not top 7) unit if healthy. Generally speaking, the coaching on D has withstood a brain drain (Flores, Graham, Boyer among others)
The lack of QB, WR and total disastrous series of moves along the OL have been a different story altogether where everything they’ve tried has failed minus a few meager successes at RB (Stevenson despite his recent struggles is decent enough, Elliot was a useful signing and Henry is adequate enough in a league where TE talent is hard to find). Similarly, the coaching development has struggled to come up with anyone to fill the huge shoes of Scarnecchia or Fears, and even a guy like Chad O’Shea who seemed to put in some good work. The offense wasn’t all Brady (or Brady/McDaniels). The WR and OL talent is awful but these guys make so many mistakes in fundamentals it has to be partly on having turnover and lack of skill/experience amongst the position coaches.
Looking at the offseason choices I'm concerned a primary goal was to ditch anyone that didn't 'properly defer' to Patricia/Judge, and thus by extension Bill and the Patriot Reign. Meyers would have been nice. Hoyer putting down the clipboard and giving us a chance would have been nice. Keeping one the guards or tackles that found great success here would have been nice (prior years).
There is character in a player supporting the QB in the face of coaching mismanagement, even while that coaching grunts and snorts and sends its mediots to blame you. Bill wants the "jump! how high?" character that does it and says thank you, no matter the outcome. That has great value too, but its hard to find 53 guys with tons the latter and none of the former.
Honestly not trying to make too much of it, as each choice has its own story, but it felt like a purge of sorts. Looks like the only offensive player resigned from last year was Conor McDermott. Injury settlement and released, if you were wondering.
The Parker extension is even more baffling coming from a GM who always preached moving off a player a year too early rather than too late. I long for the days of that GM. I thought Parker was a cut candidate coming into the season, the old Bill probably would have agreed, certainly wouldn't have extended him.
It was crazy to bring Parker back. One more point that Bill is treating 2023 like it's 2006.
The teams that are winning have offensive players that are good. AJ Brown, Travis Kelce, Deebo, McCaffrey, Tony Pollard, Amon Ra St. Brown, Diggs.
The Patriots don't have anything CLOSE to talented players on offense. I would say Rhaimondre is the only one. And he's just good, to maybe very good. I can't even count Bourne, he's good on the Pats, but there is a chance a sack of potatoes would look good on the Pat's offense. I am not sure Juju Smith Shuster could beat me in a race right now.
For a team that's desperate for better OL play, why haven't the Pats shown any interest in La'el Collins? He played very well last year for Cincy and is available for just money.
This is an excellent question and I was wondering myself. I can only think they'd rather focus on the guys they've had in the org since training camp.
Not sure if that's a GOOD reason but that's the reason I can guess at.
Is he healthy? He started the year on PUP before being released, and it’s notable to me that no OL needy team has signed him yet.
The Pats also have only a shade over 2.5M in cap space, and presumably Collins isn’t gonna play for the vet minimum or something, so you’ll need to free up space to grab him.
Personally, I never take into account those types of “personality conflicts” simply because we have no way of knowing how much, if any, of it affected the personnel decision. Asante Samuel was perhaps the one guy who was so obviously disgruntled you could see why he wasn’t retained.
The offense stunk last year and Meyers is exactly the type of WR who the Pats shouldn’t pay. He’s not a #1, isn’t a deep ball guy, isn’t a red zone guy, isn’t a YAC guy. He’s a smart, competent #2 who would have been coming back to an offense which wasn’t going to have a #1 and needed some big plays or YAC or scoring threats. I don’t know that there needs to be a personality issue or discord between him and the coaching staff to make not retaining him for 3 years unpalatable.
The rest of the guys they lost last off-season are forgettable.
The OL decisions you mention: tackle, Wynn sucks and is always hurt. Trading Mason kind of made sense financially and he was a classic “move on a year too early rather than too late” type guy and Onwenu was excellent at RG. He was nearing the end of the road as far as being worth his contract anyway. Not being more aggressive in bringing back Karras (IIRC at the time they wanted him back but not at the price) and choosing (essentially) Mason over Thuney as the big dollar guard were problematic decisions.
The handling of the OL really comes down to a lack of tackle talent (hard to come by in the league but I’m surprised they haven’t taken a few more mid round shots over the last 5 years) and their decision/evaluation that Mason and Onwenu are both best at RG. I don’t see Strange as a Mason replacement simply because Mason and Onwenu have mostly played on the right side and I don’t think BB sees/saw either guy as a LG. So in that sense, the Mason/Strange “swap” is a bit more murky when evaluating.
I do think that when the book is written on BB’s total body of work as GM, the Mason extension, which probably made them gunshy at retaining Thuney and having a huge chunk of cap tied up at guard, was one of the worst “chain of events” moves in his entire tenure. Right up there with the awful Easley/Brown picks and not offering Akiem Hicks starter money in free agency because they wanted him to rotate with those 2 young guys only to cut Easley weeks after Hicks signed with the Bears.
Excellent post. Could not agree more on Meyers, as well as the Mason situation (and Hicks).
That's interesting. Since the end of last season, it feels like Tom Curran and Phil Perry have been a lot more openly critical of BB than in the past. It's hard not to think there're internal signals are that they needn't worry about BB's ire long-term.
At the end of their podcast yesterday, Perry said that he thinks Kraft will err on the side of continuity, meaning that Mayo will be the coach and that Kraft's likely evaluating the FO to determine who can become the GM (Matt Groh being a likely candidate).
Last edited:
While I'm probably as close to the front of the line as anyone in terms of being ready to move on from BB, this really doesn't generate any excitement for me, like, at all. They need a new set of brains IMO.
Going with Mayo, especially during a rebuild, is OK with me. I don't see how you can run back the same player personnel staff unless those guys can make a compelling case that they are excellent scouts, had big plans for improving the team, and were entirely undermined/ignored by BB, e.g., "We really wanted Jakobi, but Bill blamed him for last year's Raiders loss and insisted we dump him for Juju." It's hard to imagine the dysfunction in the FO runs deep enough for that case to be made, but who knows? Of course, this also requires them to be disloyal to BB and talk behind his back to Kraft, which seems risky/unlikely.
Agreed. Excellent post @NextBigThing8184 .
The OL situation has been managed poorly. And for those who keep saying "eh, they're not that bad"...even if that were true, is "eh, they're not that bad if they're healthy" the fucking goal here? A fantastic OL makes the offense work, which by extension helps the defense as well.
Let me state this again: We drafted no tackles this year.
Also, you need to roster build expecting offensive line injuries. It's five guys that play every single offensive snap. Injuries happen. It's not like your kicker getting hurt.
[
Why is it his fault he was the number 1 option on those teams? Re-sign him AND add a true number one to open things up for Meyers. Also, who gives a shit about YAC? Honestly. It's such an overrated stat. YAC only matters if it translates to higher yards per catch, if it doesn't, I couldn't really care less if you catch the ball 12 yards deep and fall down or catch it 7 yards deep and run an extra 5. Meyers had very solid per catch production out of the slot.
Completely, 100% disagree with the Meyers argument. He's precisely the guy you give Juju and Allen Lazard money to, because that's about what he got and he's not only a better player than both, he's a guy you developed and knew worked in your system, aside from being basically your sole receiver who could get open against man coverage. No one is saying he should've gotten Davante Adams's contract.
Why is it his fault he was the number 1 option on those teams? Re-sign him AND add a true number one to open things up for Meyers. Also, who gives a shit about YAC? Honestly. It's such an overrated stat. YAC only matters if it translates to higher yards per catch, if it doesn't, I couldn't really care less if you catch the ball 12 yards deep and fall down or catch it 7 yards deep and run an extra 5. Meyers had very solid per catch production out of the slot.
Precisely. Bill was remarkable in understanding that you couldn't just build a strong starting 5, you really needed a strong 8. How many seasons did we plug a backup or two into the line for some meaningful stretch of time and have it work incredibly well? Many? Nearly all?
This year we didn't even have a strong 5, even if everyone was healthy. Forget about quality depth. Andrews is on the decline, I've been noting it since last season. Brown plays when he feels like it. Strange is occasionally fine. We barely addressed the RT spot.
I think that if everything went well this OL would be, at best, mediocre. And that's not good enough when we have no high-impact weapons anywhere on the field.
We weren't THAT thin on paper except at guard. He took what ended up a pretty ok line last year and added 2 guys who started a bunch of games at tackle for other teams. On paper going into camp with 4 guys who started a combined 39 games last year (including 26 for you) is fine for tackle. Of course the guy who played servicable RT for you goes out for the year, the guy who played LT somewhere else falls off a cliff (then gets hurt), and the last guy gets a serious illness then is terrible.
Guard is a position they were thin on, relying too much on rookies, but tackle... they had 4 guys who legitimately started in the NFL last year... quality at RT was fringey but depth was better for sure.
Also the obvious... we're not plugging in a guy a week, we're working on 3-4 new guys every week, no depth chart survives that long term.
I think Reiff and Anderson being awful was well within the expected realm of outcomes for those signings (for fans and BB himself) but if RT is the only issue on the line, they could have survived. And their strategy of patching it together and seeing how the draft board fell as to not have to reach early made sense.
What is less clear to me is what they knew of Onwenu’s injury/recovery timeline in the spring.
Strange being hurt since basically day one of camp was really the straw that broke the OL’s back. Ignoring the reach aspect of his draft status, there’s no way he’s worse than playing both Mafi/Sow simultaneously. If only because he has theoretical experience between Brown and Andrews and perhaps could have developed into something close to a starting caliber guard (which the two current rookies appear to be miles away from)
We're also not discussing the fact that Hunter Henry is playing 80% of the snaps, Gesicki is playing 52% of the snaps, and neither of them could block a shot from a third grader in a pick up game. Maybe Pharaoh Brown could play guard. Here is the screen shot of the final play of the game. If you honestly want a good laugh, just watch the entire replay and watch Gesicki. No idea if he was supposed to block Crosby (he didn't) or chip him (he also didn't) and then go into a route (he couldn't, because he was too busy falling down multiple times).
View: https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/38668071
Mac sucking aside, that screenshot is the Pats OL in a nutshell. Our linemen are turning sideways to watch their QB get pummeled. It’s an anti-pocket.
They could have picked up 4 yards!
The thing that strikes me is how often our acquisitions of late have underperformed. Parker, Gesicki, JJS, Jonnu were all pretty successful elsewhere, and have been terrible here. Draft choices keep washing out. I hear a lot of people talking about how little talent we have offensively, and maybe that is the case, but I can't help but think the coaching has been pretty bad (offensively, again). BoB hasn't made an apparent difference, and the offensive line is again a disaster. I know, injuries, but what about the careless mistakes, penalties, stupid laterals, missed assignments. Even our long snapper has regressed. This just doesn't have the feel of a tough, disciplined, smart football team that has been the Pats MO for 20 years.
I still believe in Bill Belichick as both GM and coach. This past draft was great. The offensive line is obviously a problem but we knew that coming into the season. Judon, Gonzalez, Jones and White healthy and this defense is one of the best in the league. Focus on the offense next year with money to spend and high draft picks and we can compete with anyone. Yeah, this year is over, but there’s still a solid foundation in place for next year.
I'm not as high on Bill as that, but I do think that the idea that we'll fire him and upgrade is a lot more dicey than people make out, there are worse coaches than Bill, there are worse GMs than Bill, there are a lot of worse coach/GM combos than Bill
A couple questions I'm interested in opinions here:
1) As of today, what do you hope happens with Bill?
2) (Assuming the essentially guaranteed outcome of a losing record this season) does the team's record for the remaining games this season affect what you want to see happen with Bill?
3) If Mayo is the head coach for 2024 in the event of Bill being fired, does that affect what you want to see happen with Bill?
As of today, I'm 1) hoping he gets another year provided he moves on from Mac, 2) no, because I view a high pick as the best realistic outcome at this point, and 3) knowing Mayo would get the job, I'd be less inclined to fire Bill. Not because I view Mayo as bad, I'd love to see him get a HC job, but I have trouble getting excited about jettisoning BB for a defensive coach.
1) As of today, what do you hope happens with Bill?
2) (Assuming the essentially guaranteed outcome of a losing record this season) does the team's record for the remaining games this season affect what you want to see happen with Bill?
3) If Mayo is the head coach for 2024 in the event of Bill being fired, does that affect what you want to see happen with Bill?
As of today, I'm 1) hoping he gets another year provided he moves on from Mac, 2) no, because I view a high pick as the best realistic outcome at this point, and 3) knowing Mayo would get the job, I'd be less inclined to fire Bill. Not because I view Mayo as bad, I'd love to see him get a HC job, but I have trouble getting excited about jettisoning BB for a defensive coach.
The issue for me is his age. Is he really going to start a rebuild now and then stick around? It just seems like they might as well start fresh at this point, even if they might go through a bumpy period of turmoil and turnover. I've also never been a fan of him bringing his kids on board. Just not a good look, and something that makes it easier for me to see him go for some reason.
Completely agree. Also, there's the fun of watching a guy you've followed since day one develop. Laundry's great, but it's also important to have a few (welcome) familiar faces.
I just don't understand how someone can hold this position unless you believe is that he's earned unlimited bites at the apple because of his past success.
"The offensive line is obviously a problem but we knew that coming into the season." So is Bill so clueless that he didn't realize that everyone else knew? Or did he know the o-line was a problem and didn't care?
The special teams are the worst they've ever been, despite years of us being told how critical special teams is.
The offense is an embarrassment for the second straight year.
The last time they had "money to spend" to fix the offense, they signed Nelson Algolhor, Jonnu Smith and Hunter Henry. A .333 average doesn't work in football. He also signed JuJu over Jakobi just last year. What recent evidence supports the idea that giving BB money to spend will fix the offense?
At this point I think Bill willingly stepping down and handing the keys to Mayo would be the best. My concern with Mayo would be that if you just change the top you might not address the rot underneath as well.
In this scenario they likely bring in a new GM, which would hopefully help considerably. The game planning etc. seems more fixable with Belichick acolytes. They need fresh eyes on personnel.
I go back to Mac’s rookie year. That team had no reason to win as many games as it won. Going 10-7 likely set the team back as we ended up with the 21st pick in the draft but I don’t think any other coach in the league gets that team into the playoffs.
It was only two years ago. He is still an excellent coach.
Besides, won’t it be fascinating watching Bill with a top 4 draft pick? I say ‘Giddy the fuck up!’
Team is beyond banged up espn. at OL, the qb isn't a difference maker, and the refusal to understand how important play-making weapons have become in this nfl are, in some order, why this team is very bad rn. Understandable if you don't think belichick is the guy to change it all, but imo he can obv still coach. Whether he can put together a modern offense (or get the qb to operate it) seems reasonable to doubt. They're a bad team rn, fire/trade/cut everyone doesn't usually lead to the results you think it will (check in w/ 75% of the nfl on that front).
It is funny tho, a few losses and everyone on this board who leaned into the grumpy side of bill fucking w/ the media for 2 decades sure seems to be picking apart his every move w/ extreme disgust; a few losses and people start acting all hysterical.
It is funny tho, a few losses and everyone on this board who leaned into the grumpy side of bill fucking w/ the media for 2 decades sure seems to be picking apart his every move w/ extreme disgust; a few losses and people start acting all hysterical.
Not unlimited, but some. I tend to think that he's probably run into a combination of some bad decisions but also some really bad luck. I suppose it's possible that he completely fell off a cliff and won't be able to come back from it, but I'm willing to let him try. I defer to his decision (and Kraft's, I suppose) on whether he believes he has it in him (wrt to both the ability and time).
There was a run of stories a few years back about how Belichick preferred to have a smaller coaching staff than is typical for an NFL organization - I wonder if this is coming back to bite them now that the team is lacking the veteran player leadership that was a hallmark of the Brady era?
I think the Patriots organization needs a new leader. BB is into the late Tom Landry phase of his career.
I'd assume (and hope!) that if that's the path that Kraft has a long discussion about Mayo not just taking over and most things stay the same, but Mayo having a new vision.
I guess, but what is that vision? The one thing that has been excellent has been the defense, which is Mayo's specialty as well (honestly it is just as likely to get worse given the major role both Belichicks have and that you assume Steve goes too).
Mayo doesn't solve your offense issues, nor is he someone you're making GM.
If Bill goes, GM is the biggest issue, then that guy should have free reign to hire or fire whomever they want, putting in a coach (especially a 1st time coach) then hiring a GM after is almost always a terrible plan.
I have no issues if they decide Mayo is the successor to Bill because of continuity and thinking he will make a good HC. However, if they give him the reigns, they better bring in some up-and-coming offensive mind to be OC. Over the last 10 years or so, it seems like it's the bright offensive minds both young and old (Shanahan, McDaniel, Reid, Taylor, Siriani), that are having the most success in the NFL while the DC to HC types have seemed to struggle and end up back as successful DCs. It's an offensive game now, and it's time for the Patriots to realize that and adjust accordingly.
Thing is if you bring in a hotshot OC and he develops your QB guess what, he's now taking a HC gig elsewhere and you have to start the process over. I'd much rather have an offensive mind as HC and a veteran DC added to the mix. Mayo to me is the worst case scenario in that he would represent a continuation of the culture, is a defensive guy and isn't the one drawing up the schemes. He'd be a CEO type coach and you can win with those, obviously, but if you're looking for a new QB I don't want to hand his development to one of those guys.
100% agree. Mayo can’t be the next HC at this point. Maybe if the past few years had gone differently there was a path. That door is now closed IMO. If he gets the job the drought is going to lengthen considerably. And I’m not talking about a title drought lest anyone accuse me of being entitled. I’m talking about a single playoff win. 5 years and counting. Longest in Kraft’s tenure.
I have no idea what vision Mayo or any other potential candidate would have. I simply want that person to be able to state that vision to Kraft and have it be more than "I'm gonna slide into BB's seat, and keep things mostly the same, no new staff needed, I love these guys."
- Status