Trade for Dame?

[lovegtm]

Miami *does* have an offer that gets Dame there tomorrow: they trade Bam to Portland, and then use Lowry + picks/swaps to bring in a good center. He won't be as good as Bam, but that's a reasonable team.

Obviously Miami won't do this, but at some point, Portland should just publicly ask for Bam, and tell Dame they tried, but it seems like Miami didn't want him enough.

 

[EvilEmpire]

Yeah Miami isn't some big mystery. Winning also is a major, major part of it. The key piece that would be traded to Portland played all of 19 minutes this postseason, and they still made the finals. Dame/Butler/Bam is a tremendously well rounded trio - all three are willing and competent passers, 2/3 are all-NBA level defenders and 2/3 are excellent in crunch time. They've got an excellent coach and have proven that they are capable of turning leftovers into playoff rotation players (and even if most of the decent FAs are gone now, they'll have their pick of the buyout market later this year). It's obviously not ideal for your two best players to be 33 and 34, but despite some missing games, those two aren't exactly Kawhi Leonard and Paul George. Everyone had Miami pegged as the obvious beneficiary of a Lillard trade well before he demanded to be traded there.

Yeah, you're right. Even beyond the players they have right now, who are solid, playing for Spoelstra on a team with a strong, stable culture in a really nice location and in front of fans who are relatively chill compared to Boston/Philly has to be very appealing.

Boston and Philly have talent, but the organizations have had a lot of changes over the last year or three, aren't particularly appealing places to live, and the fans/local media are brutal. Playing for Mazzulla or Nurse doesn't sound very exciting either.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Yeah Miami isn't some big mystery. Winning also is a major, major part of it. The key piece that would be traded to Portland played all of 19 minutes this postseason, and they still made the finals. Dame/Butler/Bam is a tremendously well rounded trio - all three are willing and competent passers, 2/3 are all-NBA level defenders and 2/3 are excellent in crunch time. They've got an excellent coach and have proven that they are capable of turning leftovers into playoff rotation players (and even if most of the decent FAs are gone now, they'll have their pick of the buyout market later this year). It's obviously not ideal for your two best players to be 33 and 34, but despite some missing games, those two aren't exactly Kawhi Leonard and Paul George. Everyone had Miami pegged as the obvious beneficiary of a Lillard trade well before he demanded to be traded there.

That's great from a Miami perspective, but Portland would be selling embarrassingly low if they took the Miami offer. Herro is not the kind of player that Jaylen Brown would be as a centerpiece of a Lillard deal. Boston has more picks to offer than Miami as well. Portland does not have to do whatever Dame wants here because he does not have a no-trade clause and is signed long-term. As said above, Portland should be asking for Adebayo in any Lillard deal or there's no deal as that's much more appealing than any deal involving Mr. Fashion. This is a franchise-altering deal for Portland so bowing to whatever Lillard wants is not the play. Getting the best deal possible for their organization is whether that is Boston or not.

 

[EvilEmpire]

Euclis was responding to a post discussing why Dame might really be set on Miami and nothing else. What Portland should or shouldn't do about it is a completely different issue.

 

[Caspir]

Now he says he won’t report to anyone other than Miami. Running from the grind, indeed.

View: https://twitter.com/thenbacentral/status/1677321281358688259

 

[lovegtm]

Time for Portland to accommodate him; Miami can send Bam, and he's on his way to South Beach. Easy peasy.

 

[Fishercat]

So, I think the answer is a "no", but if this does drag on and Dame threatens a hold out (Portland) or no show (anywhere but Miami), does the league step-in? I'm not sure the CBA would give any wiggle room here for them to do anything but none of these outcomes outside of a competitive trade market is good for the league. A defacto force trade after the first year of a massive, team-exclusive extension for undervalue is terrible really for any team in the league who isn't an S- tier destination. Dame sitting out or performing poorly on purpose is terrible for Portland and a bad look for the league especially with a premier rookie in that market (Henderson). There's a lot of latitude in player trade demands and Dame, more than many, has valid reason to want one and Miami is absolutely a great destination, but there's a huge difference between many other trade demands we've seen and what this is developing into which is basically "trade me to Miami or I'll be the biggest problem you can imagine and no I won't go to any other good destination, so take Miami's scraps".

Unrelated to the above really,,

I know it's been talked about, but Dame is a Top 15-20 player - Miami would be entirely justified in saying "no" to a Bam trade (frankly they should say no) but Portland would be foolish to make it without him or some other major player value until other interested teams refuse to offer their similarly ranked players. If Tyler Herro is the best player in the deal on a 4/130 deal? That'd be insane.

Like, we don't have to go that far back. Kevin Durant is a better player than Dame of course (#4 on the Ringer's rankings to #14 for Dame) but of a similar age - both on long term deals where they want out. The Nets got four first rounders, a pick swap, Mikal Bridges (#37), Cam Johnson (#94) as the key pieces here. Dame isn't Durant, that return shouldn't be expected, but Herro is in the mid-70s on the Ringer list on a bad contract, the Heat picks are crapshoots and there are fewer of them.

In a league where success and failure hinges on those Top 20-30 type players, in what would should Portland ever consider this unless the market for Lilliard is truly depressed...and given that, I think we can see more on why Dame might be taking this approach - he and his agent almost certainly know multiple teams can outgun Miami on this one.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Dame spent the last 11 years playing in Portland fucking Oregon. I don't blame him one bit for not wanting to go to Boston or some other place with shitty weather and a shitty social scene.

But theres no world where Dame just decides he's going to no-show if he gets traded, either. If he doesn't play, he doesn't accrue time on his contract and it just rolls over another year. Does anyone believe that Dame is going to retire if he doesn't get to go to Miami?

Its silly, its transparent, and it wreaks of desperation.

 

[Sille Skrub]

Now he says he won’t report to anyone other than Miami. Running from the grind, indeed.

This guy is a piece of work.

 

[Average Game James]

So, I think the answer is a "no", but if this does drag on and Dame threatens a hold out (Portland) or no show (anywhere but Miami), does the league step-in? I'm not sure the CBA would give any wiggle room here for them to do anything but none of these outcomes outside of a competitive trade market is good for the league. A defacto force trade after the first year of a massive, team-exclusive extension for undervalue is terrible really for any team in the league who isn't an S- tier destination. Dame sitting out or performing poorly on purpose is terrible for Portland and a bad look for the league especially with a premier rookie in that market (Henderson). There's a lot of latitude in player trade demands and Dame, more than many, has valid reason to want one and Miami is absolutely a great destination, but there's a huge difference between many other trade demands we've seen and what this is developing into which is basically "trade me to Miami or I'll be the biggest problem you can imagine and no I won't go to any other good destination, so take Miami's scraps".

I mean, didn't Harden basically pull the same thing to get out of Houston? He didn't hold out, but he showed up in nothing resembling game shape. From the league's perspective I'm not sure this is massively different?

 

[Average Game James]

This guy is a piece of work.

I'm increasingly coming around to the same view. If you wanted to play for Miami so badly, don't sign the extension, play out your contract, then go there as a FA. Kinda hoping Portland holds firm and he gets stuck there.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Now he says he won’t report to anyone other than Miami. Running from the grind, indeed.

View: https://twitter.com/thenbacentral/status/1677321281358688259

Lol, full lying season, he's not holding out.

So, I think the answer is a "no", but if this does drag on and Dame threatens a hold out (Portland) or no show (anywhere but Miami), does the league step-in? I'm not sure the CBA would give any wiggle room here for them to do anything but none of these outcomes outside of a competitive trade market is good for the league. A defacto force trade after the first year of a massive, team-exclusive extension for undervalue is terrible really for any team in the league who isn't an S- tier destination. Dame sitting out or performing poorly on purpose is terrible for Portland and a bad look for the league especially with a premier rookie in that market (Henderson). There's a lot of latitude in player trade demands and Dame, more than many, has valid reason to want one and Miami is absolutely a great destination, but there's a huge difference between many other trade demands we've seen and what this is developing into which is basically "trade me to Miami or I'll be the biggest problem you can imagine and no I won't go to any other good destination, so take Miami's scraps".

The league, no, the team can just suspend/fine him for each missed practice, game, mandatory event, etc.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Euclis was responding to a post discussing why Dame might really be set on Miami and nothing else. What Portland should or shouldn't do about it is a completely different issue.

And that’s fine and I was addressing the other side of that discussion point.

 

[Euclis20]

Lol, full lying season, he's not holding out.


The league, no, the team can just suspend/fine him for each missed practice, game, mandatory event, etc.

He's clearly authorized his agent/representatives to throw a full on fit in order to get what he wants. Certainly his right, and the team is free to do the same, which would be to state that they won't trade him until they get a deal that they like, and then actually wait him out. Dame is doing everything he can to scare away other offers, so at this point Miami probably is the best offer. If he wants to keep yelling like this for weeks and months, maybe that remains the case. At this point, the only date that matters is the next trade deadline, in February. Give him the full Ben Simmons treatment. His value certainly won't be any lower in 6 months than it is right now, and maybe he softens his stance (or another contender feels like taking a chance). That Miami offer will still be there. Him sitting out or being a baby in Portland isn't the worst thing that can happen, not by a longshot.

 

[DJnVa]

EDIT: covered

 

[Mystic Merlin]

He's clearly authorized his agent/representatives to throw a full on fit in order to get what he wants. Certainly his right, and the team is free to do the same, which would be to state that they won't trade him until they get a deal that they like, and then actually wait him out. Dame is doing everything he can to scare away other offers, so at this point Miami probably is the best offer. If he wants to keep yelling like this for weeks and months, maybe that remains the case. At this point, the only date that matters is the next trade deadline, in February. Give him the full Ben Simmons treatment. His value certainly won't be any lower in 6 months than it is right now, and maybe he softens his stance (or another contender feels like taking a chance). That Miami offer will still be there. Him sitting out or being a baby in Portland isn't the worst thing that can happen, not by a longshot.

Yeah, I don’t see why Portland would have much urgency here. They’re tearing down/resetting anyways, and I do not think their fanbase will be holding the pitchforks to defend Dame’s right to play in Miami.

 

[Euclis20]

Thought on Philly: If Maxey is actually off the table in a Lillard trade, then Philly is the stupidest org in the league. Tatum likely has a decade of all-NBA level play left so going all in on the next 2-3 years may not be the smartest move. Embiid turns 30 in March, and considering his injury history, he's probably not the same guy even 3-4 years from now. He (Embiid) needs Lillard. I don't get Maxey for Portland at all (even if the timeline fits, the positions don't), but if Maxey/Harris/picks gets you Lillard, they have to do it. More of a no-brainer than Miami or Boston, imo.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Thought on Philly: If Maxey is actually off the table in a Lillard trade, then Philly is the stupidest org in the league. Tatum likely has a decade of all-NBA level play left so going all in on the next 2-3 years may not be the smartest move. Embiid turns 30 in March, and considering his injury history, he's probably not the same guy even 3-4 years from now. He (Embiid) needs Lillard. I don't get Maxey for Portland at all (even if the timeline fits, the positions don't), but if Maxey/Harris/picks gets you Lillard, they have to do it. More of a no-brainer than Miami or Boston, imo.

I would guess the answer there is that he's on rookie scale then a RFA, so his trade value is high. Also, if you're getting Maxey you probably start shopping Simons in a way you don't for Herro.

 

[lovegtm]

So, I think the answer is a "no", but if this does drag on and Dame threatens a hold out (Portland) or no show (anywhere but Miami), does the league step-in? I'm not sure the CBA would give any wiggle room here for them to do anything but none of these outcomes outside of a competitive trade market is good for the league. A defacto force trade after the first year of a massive, team-exclusive extension for undervalue is terrible really for any team in the league who isn't an S- tier destination. Dame sitting out or performing poorly on purpose is terrible for Portland and a bad look for the league especially with a premier rookie in that market (Henderson). There's a lot of latitude in player trade demands and Dame, more than many, has valid reason to want one and Miami is absolutely a great destination, but there's a huge difference between many other trade demands we've seen and what this is developing into which is basically "trade me to Miami or I'll be the biggest problem you can imagine and no I won't go to any other good destination, so take Miami's scraps".

Unrelated to the above really,,

I know it's been talked about, but Dame is a Top 15-20 player - Miami would be entirely justified in saying "no" to a Bam trade (frankly they should say no) but Portland would be foolish to make it without him or some other major player value until other interested teams refuse to offer their similarly ranked players. If Tyler Herro is the best player in the deal on a 4/130 deal? That'd be insane.

Like, we don't have to go that far back. Kevin Durant is a better player than Dame of course (#4 on the Ringer's rankings to #14 for Dame) but of a similar age - both on long term deals where they want out. The Nets got four first rounders, a pick swap, Mikal Bridges (#37), Cam Johnson (#94) as the key pieces here. Dame isn't Durant, that return shouldn't be expected, but Herro is in the mid-70s on the Ringer list on a bad contract, the Heat picks are crapshoots and there are fewer of them.

In a league where success and failure hinges on those Top 20-30 type players, in what would should Portland ever consider this unless the market for Lilliard is truly depressed...and given that, I think we can see more on why Dame might be taking this approach - he and his agent almost certainly know multiple teams can outgun Miami on this one.

Yup, Bam alone would not have been enough to get KD for Miami (wasn't doable because of Simmons on the roster, but that's beside the point).

Miami has plenty of ammo to get Dame.....they just don't want to trade that ammo.

Understandable! But it's not like Portland is obligated to give them Dame for less, in that case.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Yeah, just gonna not show and cost himself 8-9 figures (could his contract be voided?) lol. Sounds legit.

 

[jon abbey]

Yeah, just gonna not show and cost himself 8-9 figures (could his contract be voided?) lol. Sounds legit.

Didn't Ben Simmons do this? PHI tried to fine him $19M, it went to arbitration and was settled but I don't think we ever learned the result.

 

[EvilEmpire]

It is looking more like Dame wants to stay in Portland if he can't go to Miami.

I think we'll find out what Portland really wants soon enough.

 

[jon abbey]

Personally I'm all for Lillard forcing his way to Miami, I want to see him play with Butler and Bam.

 

[djbayko]

Didn't Ben Simmons do this? PHI tried to fine him $19M, it went to arbitration and was settled but I don't think we ever learned the result.

I'm not sure we should be comparing anyone to Ben Simmons. He has other issues going on. He wasn't refusing to play because he didn't want to be on the Nets. He didn't want to be on a basketball court anywhere in the Western hemisphere.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Didn't Ben Simmons do this? PHI tried to fine him $19M, it went to arbitration and was settled but I don't think we ever learned the result.

Simmons claimed he was out for health reasons

 

[EvilEmpire]

I didn't see anything in that tweet or article that makes me think Dame won't report to Portland if Miami falls through.

 

[gammoseditor]

Yeah, I don’t see why Portland would have much urgency here. They’re tearing down/resetting anyways, and I do not think their fanbase will be holding the pitchforks to defend Dame’s right to play in Miami.

Agreed. It’s not like Miami is going to offer less. Miami is also in trouble if they can’t trade for Dame. They let two rotation players go without replacing them. Lowry fell off last year.

 

[Kliq]

Reporting the thoughts of "someone familiar with his thinking" is an awful trend in news media.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

This person familiar with Lillard’s thinking is probably Pat Riley with a fake accent.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Exactly. Why is he so stuck on Miami outside of the obvious warm living conditions and friendship with Bam?

Gorgeous weather during the basketball season when he's there and a thriving rap scene for his brand are probably ahead of who his teammates are. It just so happens that Miami can also compete into the playoffs.

 

[ThePrideofShiner]

Gorgeous weather during the basketball season when he's there and a thriving rap scene for his brand are probably ahead of who his teammates are. It just so happens that Miami can also compete into the playoffs.

I bet Messi is another reason. The sports world is about to be focused on Miami and being a celeb there right now is a way to cash in on all of that with some crossover opportunities as well.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

View: https://twitter.com/sreekyshooter/status/1677352414737846273

 

[Pablo's TB Lover]

So let me get this straight: Bradley Beal with a no trade clause was fine releasing it for the trade from the Wizards, but Dame who rightfully could have added a no trade clause to his current contract chose not to do so but is essentially choosing the ONE team he wants to be traded to? Makes total sense.

This latest "sourcing" is definitely from Miami's side trying to keep the price down. Similar to the Lakers with Anthony Davis when there were some obvious deals out there that could beat theirs (such as the Celtics young stars at that time).

Edit: This is one of those situations where a stronger commissioner such as David Stern would be telling all principals involved to "cut the shit". He'd jump in and tell Miami and Dame to stop with leaking the single-team stuff to the press, and tell the Blazers that he'll make sure Miami gets a third team in to sweeten the deal with another 1st rounder and at that time the trade WILL be finished.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

View: https://twitter.com/sreekyshooter/status/1677352414737846273

This is Gold!

 

[NWsoxophile]

Personally I'm all for Lillard forcing his way to Miami, I want to see him play with Butler and Bam.

I do too, and I’m huge fan of both Lillard and the Blazers. I felt this way before the trade demand. It seemed pretty obvious to me even then that a split and full rebuild was the best move for both parties.

 

[Devizier]

The Durant hold-and-deal makes it pretty likely that Portland takes the same path. I mean, Miami isn’t taking anything off the table unless Herro improbably takes a massive leap. The risk is injury but I think it’s one a team in Portland’s position is willing to take.

 

[SoxFanInPdx]

Always been a fan of Lillard and go to many games during the season. However, at this point - he’s holding the Blazers hostage and other teams that would like to present a trade package in return.

This current Heat offer is absolute, fucking trash. And if the rumored it’s Heat or nothing from his agent, then Dame would have said something by now.

He signed the max knowing that Portland has never been a free agent destination and that’s on him. In matter of a month this guy has destroyed what rep he had in this town. And Cronin should absolutely hold until a really good offer comes along.

This entire saga is so dumb. Hope the Blazers just sit back and take their time. What a crock of shit Lillard has been preaching for a decade.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Personally I'm all for Lillard forcing his way to Miami, I want to see him play with Butler and Bam.

I'd report this post, but it would just go to you.

 

[Euclis20]

Always been a fan of Lillard and go to many games during the season. However, at this point - he’s holding the Blazers hostage and other teams that would like to present a trade package in return.

This current Heat offer is absolute, fucking trash. And if the rumored it’s Heat or nothing from his agent, then Dame would have said something by now.

He signed the max knowing that Portland has never been a free agent destination and that’s on him. In matter of a month this guy has destroyed what rep he had in this town. And Cronin should absolutely hold until a really good offer comes along.

This entire saga is so dumb. Hope the Blazers just sit back and take their time. What a crock of shit Lillard has been preaching for a decade.

It's pretty illuminating skimming through the blazers subreddit. I don't know if it's actually the case that players in Portland and around the league are watching the situation closely, but it's 100% the case that Portland fans are, and they will not be happy with a shitty return.

 

[Ale Xander]

View: https://twitter.com/sreekyshooter/status/1677352414737846273

Stuff like this (force me to one and only one team) should be against the CBA or something.

 

[TripleOT]

Going to Miami without a lot of assets going out certainly benefits Dame’s championship aspirations. Portland should hold firm. Once Dame’s people realize that the Allen Trust won’t be pushed around, they will either capitulate and open up the list of suitors, or not get a trade. Or Miami parts with Bam.

 

[EvilEmpire]

I do think it can be taken too far (Ben Simmons), but I don't blame players for trying to control their own destiny as much as they can. Owners/management sure as hell use the leverage they have.

 

[Van Everyman]

Stuff like this (force me to one and only one team) should be against the CBA or something.

Do the Blazers have rights to any of the publishing?

 

[Euclis20]

I do think it can be taken too far (Ben Simmons), but I don't blame players for trying to control their own destiny as much as they can. Owners/management sure as hell use the leverage they have.

Yeah he can (and his reps) can say whatever they want, but I think that everyone assume he's gonna show up in October, regardless of what team is paying him (unless it's Portland and they tell him to stay away). If he actually refuses to report, then he's Simmons (but dumber, because Simmons still theoretically had most of his career in front of him and could afford to blow a year, plus Philly had just thrown him under the bus hard while Portland has bent over backwards for Dame).

I do think this whole exercise has shown it was always more about maximizing his contracts than loyalty, but that's fine, too. As you note, teams will do the same thing.

 

[The Mort Report]

I do think it can be taken too far (Ben Simmons), but I don't blame players for trying to control their own destiny as much as they can. Owners/management sure as hell use the leverage they have.

Eh, I partially agree, I certainly don't feel bad for the billionaire owners, but I think when you are getting paid ten of millions of dollars a year you are forfeiting some control over where you are. I get that it's a slippery slope though

 

[Ale Xander]

Eh, I partially agree, I certainly don't feel bad for the billionaire owners, but I think when you are getting paid ten of millions of dollars a year you are forfeiting some control over where you are. I get that it's a slippery slope though

I don’t feel bad about the owners, I feel bad about the fans

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I do think it can be taken too far (Ben Simmons), but I don't blame players for trying to control their own destiny as much as they can. Owners/management sure as hell use the leverage they have.

I have a lot of sympathy for rookies or players on their first contract for the reason you note above. But Dame's situation bears no resemblence to that, or to what you suggest above. It really just doesn't.

Dame has been in the league a long time, chosen not to go to free agency, and just recently signed a two-year extension. All solely within his discretion, and all consciously (and with a lot of legal/agent advice) with the recognition he was giving up control over his destiny for the security of a huge, longer-term contract. I don't blame him at all for doing so, mind you, or for saying "hey, now I'm ready to move on" but you need to realize that the only reason he can't control his destiny right now is that he decided he would rather sign a bigger contract for more years (to limit his own risk of injury or decline during those years) rather than take one-year deals. It has zero to do with management using the leverage they have---he long ago could have chosen to control his path and decided not to. He also could have asked for a no-trade, which effectively allows him to control his destiny, and he didn't (or at least, didn't get one). Only apex stars can realistically do short-term deals but Dame has been one for a while now and Lebron has shown you can, in fact, control your own destiny if that's what you feel is important to do. To take the money and security of that contract and then say "I should get whatever situation I want, too" is not something I personally think is realistic or fair to the team given the security they jointly agreed to give him in exchange for giving up that right (though I know it is the direction things head in sports).

So, while I've liked Dame and I realize this is all just generic agent/player/team stuff it bugs me to read descriptions that absolve the player of any responsibility or pretend that a 10 year vet who just extended his deal is at all comparable to some rookie drafted and sent to a strange city on a restricted contract...that's just not realistic.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Stuff like this (force me to one and only one team) should be against the CBA or something.

How can anonymous reports/rumors be against the CBA? Lillard has the right to do whatever he wants or leak whatever he wants for his benefit. If the Blazers don't oblige and keep him he has the option to back off his demands or sit out/retire while not being paid. It's a hardball play but it's a business decision. They occur on both sides of the table.

 

[ManicCompression]

We just watched the Celtics trade away a guy in Smart who gave as much to the franchise as a single player possibly can. He was blindsided by it. We applauded Stevens for being shrewd.

If a player has the leverage to dictate where he goes, he should use it, because he’ll get dumped to a place he doesn’t want to go when he no longer has leverage.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

It is looking more like Dame wants to stay in Portland if he can't go to Miami.

Dame isn't playing for PDX again.

I'm more or less resigned to Dame ending up in MIA but I hope Cronin and the Trail Blazers exact their pound of flesh.

In terms of tactics, I don't think Dame was given good advice to put his ultimatums out now. I'm sure PDX wants Jaquez in the deal (I mean he's one of the better assets MIA has - which isn't saying much) but since Jaquez signed, they can't do the deal for 30 days (if people are reporting this rule correctly).

Now that the trade is going to sit for a while, there's really no downside for Cronin to just continue letting the deal sit and see what happens. Maybe Dame reports and pulls a Harden and is a terrible influence and then he has to go. But that would be even worse for his reputation, if Dame cares about that at all anymore.