UFC/MMA in 2016

[Gunfighter 09]

 
Plus, I think you know I meant if Floyd trained MMA from the start, not if he began now as a 37 year old.  But, hey, I guess all these supreme fighters and athletes are so dedicated to the MMA lifestyle that they'd rather make 10's of thousands fighting for Dana White than 10s of millions like Floyd, Manny, etc.  Or maybe they just can't hang.

 
Do you think any boxer will be making 8 figures for a boxing match in 10 years? 7 figures for a boxing match in 20 years? 
 

 
Look, I was being as deferential as possible, because I do respect UFC guys, but all three fights on that card ended on goofy looping overhands that never would've landed on a decent boxer.  A decent boxer would know to block those or counter with a short jab or quick cross down the pike.  Seriously, name one fight where a pro boxer gets knocked out with a punch that absurd.....They clinch, they turtle, they don't look down and their shoes and bend from the waist.
 

 
 
Those punches land because guys are defending three or four things simultaneously. Clinching in MMA doesn't get you an interruption from the ref and a short break to clear your head & catch your breath like it does in boxing. Clinching gets you elbows and knees to the head and body or taken the ground. I don't know quite what you mean by "turtle" but I imagine it gets countered in a similar manner in MMA. 
 
Your criticism of top level MMA fighters as lousy strikers is like an Olympic level track fan talking about how slow NFL wide receivers are, or a Collegiate Wrestling fan assuming every good heavyweight should be an All American Football Guard or Center. Just like we have no idea if Bolt could take a hit, actually catch a ball, make cuts or understand an NFL offense, we have no idea how Floyd or Manny would do fighting 5 minute rounds, working on the ground, using their feet or defending all four limbs and their neck. 

 

[Marciano490]

Again, respectfully, please tell me what it is about fighting under UFC rules that makes it impossible to counter a looping, slow-developing overhand with a quick jab or by moving your hand an inch higher to block the punch before it hits your temple?
 
I've trained with MMA fighters; I've trained them for fights.  I've worked through this stuff with them.  Anyone who's read the weightlifting thread knows I don't thump my credentials or argue for argument's sake, but saying, "well, it's a different sport!" doesn't get you anywhere when you're not saying how or why things work differently.  Why would anyone in any fight bend at the waist and look straight down.  You lose leverage.  You lose vision.  You're entirely susceptible to uppercuts, knees and kicks.
 
Liddell was considered the best striker of his time.  He got knocked out by Rampage because he threw a ridiculous uppercut that started from his waist. Someone can find and post the clip.  Was there something about fighting MMA that makes you throw an uppercut not by bending at your knees with your guard high and popping it from that position, but rather by dropping your fist to your waist, wasting time and leaving you completely open, and throwing it from that position?  Or, was he just kind of shitty with his hands?

 

[Marciano490]

It's like this - there was a discussion on the football board about different tackling and running styles between rugby and football. Why speed is different in rugby. Why tackling technique is different. That's what I'm asking for.

I don't mean to be rude, it's just frustrating that the amount of technique and science in combat sports never seems to get due respect. I've watched a ton of football for a decade and still don't know what an a gap is or a cover one. I don't understand blocking technique or pass rushing technique. Why people who don't have fight experience think they can figure it out by watching tv is beyond me. Again, no offense. But, there's a ton of technique involved in everything. You gotta learn to run right, even. To do a proper bench press. Basic stuff everyone's done or tried.

 

[kelpapa]

I think this is the sequence that Marciano is talking about. It's grainy footage, but the only video I could find.
 
AG is already in trouble when this starts. Rumble has just thrown a left kick to the head.

 
Rumble throws a left.

Looks like he bends at the waist to get out of the way.

While it's possible he could get a hand on the ground here, he's in a real bad spot.

He pulls out of the clockwise bend here.

 
Edit: I posted a couple pics out of sequence. I also realized that he may have been talking about the sequence about ten seconds after this exchange. I'm going to bed, though.

 

[Marciano490]

Yes, I just got home and rewatched it.  This is the sequence I'm talking about.  Rumble had hurt Gus about ten seconds early, Gus was able to land a decent punch in return and was still in good shape.  At 3:28 both fighters are fine and on their toes.  Rumble does a high left leg kick that Gus blocks.  Rumble follows up with a couple shots that miss but put Gus's back against the octagon.  With his back against the wall, Gus bends completely at the waist, head by his knees, face looking straight downward FOR NO REASON LIKE A TOTAL AMATEUR.  He isn't hurt here yet, just being pressed and in trouble.
 
While he's bent over at the waist, not reeling from a punch, but just losing his cool like a rank amateur, Rumble catches him with an uppercut that he doesn't see coming because he's checking out his pedicure, and it's game over.  He bends at the waist a few more times, takes some more uppercuts and down he goes.
 
This had nothing to do with the difference between MMA and boxing or Gus reeling from a punch.  It was putrid technique and defense that lead directly to him getting knocked out.
 
Case closed.  All apologies accepted.

 

[Gunfighter 09]

What is ironic about this whole discussion is that Gustafson is a boxing background fighter. From Wiki: 
 

 
 
Gustafsson started training MMA in 2006, and before that he trained in boxing which he started when he was around 10 years old.[9] In 2008-2009 he made a quick return to boxing, winning some amateur tournaments in Sweden and defeating the Swedish heavyweight boxing champion in an amateur fight.

 

Yes, I just got home and rewatched it.  This is the sequence I'm talking about.  Rumble had hurt Gus about ten seconds early, Gus was able to land a decent punch in return and was still in good shape.  At 3:28 both fighters are fine and on their toes.  Rumble does a high left leg kick that Gus blocks.  Rumble follows up with a couple shots that miss but put Gus's back against the octagon.  With his back against the wall, Gus bends completely at the waist, head by his knees, face looking straight downward FOR NO REASON LIKE A TOTAL AMATEUR.  He isn't hurt here yet, just being pressed and in trouble.
 
While he's bent over at the waist, not reeling from a punch, but just losing his cool like a rank amateur, Rumble catches him with an uppercut that he doesn't see coming because he's checking out his pedicure, and it's game over.  He bends at the waist a few more times, takes some more uppercuts and down he goes.
 
This had nothing to do with the difference between MMA and boxing or Gus reeling from a punch.  It was putrid technique and defense that lead directly to him getting knocked out.
 
Case closed.  All apologies accepted.

 
Then why all of the other noise about Floyd & Lidell, how much money fighters make, the jack of all trades comments etc?  If you want to talk about how Gus fucked up and got himself beat and hurt... here is your answer, provided by II in post 92: 
 

I understand where you are coming from and agree that striking isn't as tight as in boxing, but Gus was probably on Cloud City after that first overhand right. I imagine he wanted to go for a takedown, which a lot of guys go to when in trouble, but he wasn't all there enough to execute. He was in trouble in the Jones fight but didn't crumble as bad.
 
 

 

He was indecisive and got caught between two courses of action. It cost him beating and another shot at the title. 
 
 

It's like this: a decathalete is probably a better athlete than a sprinter, but I'd rather watch Bolt run than someone else be pretty damn awesome in ten events. The UFC fighters are insanely talented across a lot of disciplines, but I don't know enough about wrestling or jiu jitsu to appreciate what they do in clinches, so for me the striking aspect is the most intriguing, and when they're on their feet I find most UFC fighters have the same skill level as a midlevel amateur boxer.
 

 
 
This might be true (you can say better than me, I have incredibly low level wrestling and jiu jitsu experience and know very little about boxing)  but probably isn't that relevant. I believe wrestling, judo or Jiu Jitsu skills are much more important disciplines for fighters in MMA.  There are a huge number of experts in those disciplines who could be taught to strike in order to be successful in MMA, but hardly any boxers who have been taught to fight with their whole body or on the ground. I can't find a definitive list of Olympians in MMA, but from what I can tell, only one was a boxer and he only fought two fights. 
 

 
http://www.ufc.com/news/Olympians-in-the-Octagon-BTN
 
This  UFC specific article has 10 Free Style Wrestling Olympians, 4 Greco Olympians and 3 Judo Olympians
 
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1277008-13-mma-and-ufc-olympic-gold-medalists-and-those-who-fell-short/page/2
 
This non UFC specific article notes 6 Freestyle Olympians, 2 Greco Olympians and 3 Judo Olympians
 
The only two elite boxers I can find / think of with any MMA experience are an old and washed up James Toney who was helpless against a five years older Randy Couture and Boxing Olympian Ray Mercer who was choked out by Kimbo Slice (!) and knocked out Tim Sylvia. 
 
 
So, one of two things are possible: 
 
1. Boxing is the least important fighting discipline for an MMA fighter to master, and a background in other combat sports that are not so specialized and constrained by the rules is much more important. 
 
2. The money is so much better in boxing that any good boxer isn't going to go fight MMA.
 
I think option 1 is much more plausible.  
 
 

This was some great work though, I am honored to share a message board with you. The trolling followed by "why can none of your peasants converse on my level?" is pretty awesome internetting. 

 

[Marciano490]

Come on now. There was no trolling at all.  I made valid points, nobody wanted to credit them because I was a boxer not an MMA fighter.  Nobody wanted to counter with anything based in knowledge or experience, just point out that I was a boxer not an MMA fighter.  Nobody wanted to look at the tape and come up with a reasonable explanation - really? He's going for a takedown by bending at the waist in place?  If he were going for a takedown he'd move at Rumble's legs, no?  I said a million times I respect these guys and they're great athletes and some are extremely skilled in one or two disciplines.
 
When I said this had nothing to do with the difference between boxing and MMA that was in response to everyone saying I couldn't understand Gus's technique because the tens of thousands of rounds I'd spent in the ring were just plain boxing so I couldn't understand the subtle technique differences between boxing and MMA.  Still, nobody has pointed out what they are.
 
Anyways, there's interesting discussions to be had about the evolution of the sport - which I've watched from the Tank Abbot and Dan the Beast days - and how proficient fighters can be across all disciplines, but aficionados need to realize the limits of these fighters and recognize that even top guys have huge holes in their fight skills, rather than make apologies and claim boxing isn't all that important for MMA.
 
Seriously, how do you make that claim after a card in which all 3 fights were ended by a punch?

 

[Gunfighter 09]

Come on now. There was no trolling at all.  I made valid points, nobody wanted to credit them because I was a boxer not an MMA fighter.  Nobody wanted to counter with anything based in knowledge or experience, just point out that I was a boxer not an MMA fighter.  Nobody wanted to look at the tape and come up with a reasonable explanation - really? He's going for a takedown by bending at the waist in place?  If he were going for a takedown he'd move at Rumble's legs, no?  I said a million times I respect these guys and they're great athletes and some are extremely skilled in one or two disciplines.
 
When I said this had nothing to do with the difference between boxing and MMA that was in response to everyone saying I couldn't understand Gus's technique because the tens of thousands of rounds I'd spent in the ring were just plain boxing so I couldn't understand the subtle technique differences between boxing and MMA.  Still, nobody has pointed out what they are.
 
Anyways, there's interesting discussions to be had about the evolution of the sport - which I've watched from the Tank Abbot and Dan the Beast days - and how proficient fighters can be across all disciplines, but aficionados need to realize the limits of these fighters and recognize that even top guys have huge holes in their fight skills, rather than make apologies and claim boxing isn't all that important for MMA.
 
Seriously, how do you make that claim after a card in which all 3 fights were ended by a punch?

 
The meat of your posts was legitimate questions served with a side order of trolling like about how Floyd would be guaranteed to succeed in MMA, jack of all trades etc.....
 
Perhaps I should have been more clear, it is not that striking (with hands, elbows and feet) is not important, I just think the population of MMA bears out the fact that it is much easier to teach a wrestler / Jiu Jitsu / Judo specialist to strike than the inverse. 
 
In terms of technical speak, here is what I can give you: 
 
Like I said above, my personal striking experience is limited to military martial arts training, the quality of which is debatable, but I do know that when you are only focused on being punched by fists your scan is much smaller and your hands can sit much higher, therefore you can defend much higher quality punches. That might be because I come from a (incredibly low level) wrestling back ground so my mind keeps takedown defense in very high priority and I bias towards grabbing things that are hurting me, rather than using my forearms and shoulders to block them, like I believe a boxer does. From the perspective of takedown defense, having your hands lower and even wider is incredibly helpful. A good sprawl is all getting your feet back and hips low, but you are much likelier to be successful by getting your hands involved, thus having them low enough to help block you opponents shot attempt is very important. Post sprawl, you want to have your hands on the outside / top of your opponent to facilitate controlling his "horns" and getting around back and on top into a controlling position. Further, many MMA fighters are incorporating guillotine type head chokes into their takedown defense, controlling the head and really ignoring the arms anytime an opponent shoots. Both of things are facilitated by keeping your hands lower and wider, which probably leaves you more open to strikes. 

 

[kelpapa]

The meat of your posts was legitimate questions served with a side order of trolling like about how Floyd would be guaranteed to succeed in MMA, jack of all trades etc.....
 
Perhaps I should have been more clear, it is not that striking (with hands, elbows and feet) is not important, I just think the population of MMA bears out the fact that it is much easier to teach a wrestler / Jiu Jitsu / Judo specialist to strike than the inverse.

I think the reasoning is different. The original UFC was put together to have people from different disciplines fight and see which discipline was the best. Royce Gracie was sent to compete in this tournament to prove a point, and he clearly did. While it's evolved a lot since then, jiu jitsu is still the most important aspect of fighting in current MMA.
 

In terms of technical speak, here is what I can give you: 
 
Like I said above, my personal striking experience is limited to military martial arts training, the quality of which is debatable, but I do know that when you are only focused on being punched by fists your scan is much smaller and your hands can sit much higher, therefore you can defend much higher quality punches. That might be because I come from a (incredibly low level) wrestling back ground so my mind keeps takedown defense in very high priority and I bias towards grabbing things that are hurting me, rather than using my forearms and shoulders to block them, like I believe a boxer does. From the perspective of takedown defense, having your hands lower and even wider is incredibly helpful. A good sprawl is all getting your feet back and hips low, but you are much likelier to be successful by getting your hands involved, thus having them low enough to help block you opponents shot attempt is very important. Post sprawl, you want to have your hands on the outside / top of your opponent to facilitate controlling his "horns" and getting around back and on top into a controlling position. Further, many MMA fighters are incorporating guillotine type head chokes into their takedown defense, controlling the head and really ignoring the arms anytime an opponent shoots. Both of things are facilitated by keeping your hands lower and wider, which probably leaves you more open to strikes.

This is off topic, but your head is your second line of defense from a takedown in wrestling. Keeping it down and in position against a shot is key to a good defense. That's obviously not what he's doing here, though. In the fourth picture I posted, he's susceptible to punches, knees, kicks (when he comes out of it) and a takedown, and Rumble has no intention of taking a shot.
 
Realistically, Gus put himself in a horrible position, and I have only one explanation as to why he did that:
He was hurt much more than he let on from the previous exchange. Rumble landed several punches before hand and was stalking Gus across the ring. He must have been dazed and was in full blown survival mode. I don't buy that he was trying to take a shot, and I don't think he was trying to prevent himself from being kicked in the face by putting his hand on the mat.
 
I realize this is not the technical response that Marciano is looking for, but it's the only explanation I can come up with. 

 

[Marciano490]

Okay, see, this is much better, and I agree with your points and made some of the same above.
 
I'm sorry you took anything I took as trolling, it wasn't meant to be.  I'm a longtime MMA fan and probably would've tried my hand at it if I weren't painfully inflexible (I can't kick above my waist even).
 
I don't think my point about Floyd is that controversial.  He's a generational fighting talent.  If he started MMA training at age 18, you don't think he could've been champ?  I don't think that's an insulting assumption.  The jack of all trades is just a fact.  It's not meant as an insult.  The human body can only train so many hours.  It's impossible for someone who has to train jiu jitsu, boxing, wrestling, etc. to be as good in any one of those disciplines as someone who devotes all their time to just one style.  A lot of MMA fighters are great wrestlers or great at jiu jitsu, but that's because they'd trained just those sports for a decade plus and won NCAA championships or Olympic medals before transitioning to MMA.
 
I'll also continue to acknowledge - as I did before - that vastly different techniques are involved and MMA fighters have to guard against a far more complex offense than do boxers.  I've said before, and will say again here, that even the size of the gloves matters.  A boxer can guard against those overhands by simply holding his glove against his face - the added size of a boxing glove will cover the temple whereas an MMA fighter would have to position his hand to effect a proper defense.
 
Having said all those things and watched the fight 4 times now, there was nothing about Gus's waist bend that had anything to do with him being in an MMA fight.  It wasn't a takedown attempt or defense.  He wasn't trying to avoid a kick or knee.  He was completely flustered and do what people without much striking experience do in that situation, they try to protect their head by getting as low as possible, but end up blinding themselves and opening themselves up to a far broader away of attacks.  That is was and always has been my point here.

 

[beezer]

 I've said before, and will say again here, that even the size of the gloves matters.  A boxer can guard against those overhands by simply holding his glove against his face - the added size of a boxing glove will cover the temple whereas an MMA fighter would have to position his hand to effect a proper defense.

 
One other item to point out here is that the size of the gloves matters not only in terms of area being blocked, but also in terms of the impact of blocked shots.  You're actually taught when training with MMA gloves to block further away from the head or to utilize the forearms and elbows to diffuse some of the damage.  Its one of the reasons why covering up is far more effective in boxing and why those looping power shots are more prevalent in MMA.  They're both harder to block with the smaller gloves and still do more damage even when blocked. 

 

[Pxer]

It was certainly an error and I'm sure something that Gus's team will break down in their review of the fight with him. Of course Gus's boxing skills are limited, but it's pretty hard to be one of the best in the world at a particular discipline and become a UFC champion because of the aforementioned time that needs to be spent balancing different aspects of a fighter's repertoire.
 
Not sure why anyone really should have a beef with this; it's why we call it MIXED martial arts. Maybe his coaches are to blame for such a fundamental error, maybe not. I think MMA coaching has yet to rise up to the level that is going to produce the next step up in competition.

 

[Marciano490]

Anyways, looking forward to Silva-Diaz this weekend.  The sport's better with a healthy Silva, and like I said upthread, I'm a fan of Diaz's boxing skills.  For those more knowledgeable, how's the undercard look?  Obviously, I'm a Lauzon fan, but haven't seen any of Gastelum or Woodley.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Woodley's last few fights have been strange -
He looked like a killer and KO'd Koshchek
He blew out Condit's ACL on a double leg takedown, he landed on Condit's knee with all his weight, and the look on Condit's face was agony.
He lost to Rory clean sweep UD, He didn't let his hands go at all, and looked lethargic, maybe a tough weight cut or something, I don't know, but he had nothingt. 
Then he TKO'd DH Kim in like a minute.
 
In summation, I have no idea what to expect with him. 

 

[Pxer]

Igor Pokrajac, Tom Niinimaki, Sean Soriano, Mike Rhodes, and Rodrigo Damm all cut from UFC.

 

[mikeford]

ANDERSON FUCKING SILVA TONIGHT YALL

 

[theapportioner]

Psyched for Silva v Diaz.

 

[Gunfighter 09]

That was a hell of a fight by Misha Tate. She was beaten thoroughly halfway through the second round after being rocked in the first. She then nearly submitted McMann to end the second then reversed a takedown and kept an Olympic wrestling medalist on her back for 4:45 to win the 3rd round 10-8 on all three cards and secure the win. Good example of determination beating skill. 

 

[theapportioner]

I think I'm going to buy some dynamic fastener tonight.

 

[kelpapa]

AI coming out to the Sopranos theme is sick.

 

[theapportioner]

I just realized that both Rampage and Cro Cop are back in the UFC. What is this, 2005?

 

[mikeford]

Joe Lauzon let Boston down.

 

[theapportioner]

Not a good night for New England - Tim Boetsch lost too. Hopefully that doesn't carry over to tomorrow.

 

[theapportioner]

Woodley is from Ferguson, Missouri. Huh.

 

[Marciano490]

Woodley and Gastellum have good hands. Boring fight so far though.

 

[Marciano490]

If Woodley feints the jab he'll get another cross through.

 

[mikeford]

Woodley and Gastellum have good hands. Boring fight so far though.

Both guys have looked scared to engage for 2 rounds 

 

[Marciano490]

Gastellums eye isn't bad enough for Woodley to be circling right on the southpaw.

 

[mikeford]

man that fight was trash dookie. 

 

[Marciano490]

Hard fight to score but no way Woodley won all three rounds. Gastellum had the first.

 

[theapportioner]

Woodley fought timidly. Surprised one of the judges gave him 30-27. Can't see him beating Lawler or Hendricks with that kind of performance.

 

[mikeford]

ITS TIME.
 
TIME TO DIE, DIAZ

 

[Marciano490]

Silva may win but his reflexes are shot.

 

[Gunfighter 09]

This is awesome, I am laughing out loud at this shit. 
 
Don't know who won the first, but Diaz won the 2nd. 

 

[theapportioner]

Silva may be out Diaz-ing Diaz. 

 

[kelpapa]

I fucking love both of these guys. I could watch these two fight every month for the next year.

 

[Marciano490]

What a creative offensive arsenal silva has though. Awesome to watch.

 

[theapportioner]

Those are some slow ass kicks by Diaz.

 

[Marciano490]

Fun in spurts, but silvas days as a transcendent fighter are sadly gone.

 

[theapportioner]

Well, he is 39 years old.

 

[theapportioner]

Thought the judging was pretty generous to Silva.

 

[Gunfighter 09]

That was garbage. I though it was 48-47 one way or the other. 

 

[Marciano490]

I do love nick Diaz.

 

[kelpapa]

FightMetric has Silva outstriking Diaz with significant strikes in each of the first four rounds. The fifth round has not been posted yet.

 

[mikeford]

He sounded completely uncommitted to another fight.
 
I thought he won all 5 rounds fwiw

 

[theapportioner]

I'm sure Silva will fight again. But who?
 
Nick Diaz, who knows.

 

[kelpapa]

And he outstruck Diaz 26-11 with significant strikes in the fifth round. Silva landed 108/217 vs. 77/223 from Diaz.

 

[mikeford]

Diaz will fight again when he runs out of weed money

 

[mikeford]

 

[Marciano490]

I really do like Diaz, and the taunting stuff was great, but you can't call out a guy for laying back and then not take the fight to him yourself.  Diaz not being more aggressive when Silva was tentative allowed him to get into a rhythm and sweep the later rounds.