Week 2 Game Thread
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Has there ever been a worse coach with a longer tenure in the history of sports than Marvin Lewis?
...yes? He's won 10+ games 6 times in 14 years and has only had 4 losing records during that time. Clearly, they look on their way for another. The playoff futility has caused a stink that he'll never be able to wear off.
Even with the whupping Ohio St took last Saturday, I think a case might be made that they're the best football team in the state.
Then who would that coach be? He's never won a playoff game. Has there ever been another coach in pro sports who lasted 14+ years with a single franchise without winning a playoff game? I'm genuinely curious.
To be fair, since the other sports have playoff series, has a coach ever lasted as long without winning a playoff series?
Jimmy Dykes comes to mind as a near answer to your query, though not exact, as the skipper of the 1934-46 White Sox. Beyond that though, he was Connie Mack's replacement for the A's from 51-53, followed by a 100 loss season with the 1954 Orioles, a decent stretch over 41 games with the 1958 Redlegs, 3 games over .500 with the Tigers the next season and a half, ending with a mediocre showing with the Indians in the early 60s for 218 games. His teams never finished higher than third, despite getting to manage 2,857 career games.
To a lesser degree, Charlie Grimm comes close as well, but with a few conditions that Dykes lacks. 32-38, 44-49, and a bit of 1960 (just before the College of Coaches) with the Cubs. Not consecutive, and despite three pennants, never took it home for the Cubs. But those Cubs of his teams at least made it to the big game, unlike Lewis or Dykes.
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Can you show me all your posts about felonious Frank Clark, who is a way worse person than Mixon?
I'd be saying that about any other player. He got on his moral high horse about Mixon while he's never said a word about Clark (a much shittier human being) because he went to his favorite school/alma mater.
Jeff Fisher is a decent comp for Marvin Lewis. A ton of years of mediocrity. The major difference is that Fisher won 5 playoff games (career playoff record 5-6) and came somewhat close to winning a title.
I didn't remember Clark until this post, but I love this quote from his Wiki page:
And until he was canned, Fisher was the archetype for mediocrity despite having better postseason success. Pretty damning for Lewis and Brown.
NFL ratings are going into the tank.
Simmons wrote about this in the Ringer and I think he was onto something. Heading into the season, it felt dirty and more uncomfortable than ever before to be a fan of the NFL. There is so much bad (goodell, concussions, the rules, the beatings, the owners greed, what is a catch, etc) and, other than the games, nothing good. The NBA dominated the summer. You didn't hear anything good about the NFL, other than the draft, for months. There was no buildup.
If you're an average fan of the NFL, you're walking away from the sport. My wife can't tolerate to watch it anymore and while I'm still watching on Sunday, you couldn't have paid me to watch the game last night. So I'm still in, but not in the way I was 4-5 years ago.
Simmons wrote about this in the Ringer and I think he was onto something. Heading into the season, it felt dirty and more uncomfortable than ever before to be a fan of the NFL. There is so much bad (goodell, concussions, the rules, the beatings, the owners greed, what is a catch, etc) and, other than the games, nothing good. The NBA dominated the summer. You didn't hear anything good about the NFL, other than the draft, for months. There was no buildup.
If you're an average fan of the NFL, you're walking away from the sport. My wife can't tolerate to watch it anymore and while I'm still watching on Sunday, you couldn't have paid me to watch the game last night. So I'm still in, but not in the way I was 4-5 years ago.
+1. The concussion business is getting to me. Just like boxing - I used to love the Friday Night fights, watched them with my father, as I grew older, I came to realize the physical damage they wreaked on one another. Remember Benny Paret and Emile Griffith?
I can't get the images of Mike Webster and Junior Seau out of my mind. Non-guaranteed contracts, guys cut loose with life-long damage, and guys like Jerry Jones and Woody Johnson wallowing in money. Ugh.
The biggest reason I believe is the quality of the product has dropped significantly in the last few years. The playoffs last year were horrible and the regular season had lots of talk of poor play. Thursday night games have been horrible for a long time now. There are other issues but fixing the quality of play would solve many of those.
I found last night's game pretty unwatchable, and switched to Indian/Royals (which was very watchable).
There are two primary issues 1) declining quality and 2) flow of game/too many commercials.
There are two primary issues 1) declining quality and 2) flow of game/too many commercials.
It's less comfortable for me to watch an NFL game now than a boxing match. Every play I expect an injury. If it weren't for betting/fantasy I don't think I'd watch anything but Pats games anymore, and even there I missed last week's opener.
Interesting names. Props for digging this up. The fact that we have to go back 60-80 years and to a different sport demonstrates how amazing Lewis' reign of mediocrity truly is.
Don't have any statistical evidence to back this up (would be interesting to see) but it does feel like the violent nature of the game combined with increased awareness of all injuries (especially head injuries of course) has contributed to more "starters" being out on a regular basis, which then leads to shittier games and also makes following teams less fun as watching a game is much less interesting if you don't even know half the players on the field. You end up getting a bunch of games that really aren't much better than scrubs vs. scrubs.
Relatedly, this destroyed any enthusiasm I had for fantasy football - it's much less fun if half the people you drafted are injured by Week 5 and you have to spend the rest of the season looking at the scrap heap and trying to figure out which shitty replacement might score a touchdown in any given week. That may be a personal pet peeve rather than something that is actually effecting engagement on a large scale, but I can't imagine it's helping any.
Relatedly, this destroyed any enthusiasm I had for fantasy football - it's much less fun if half the people you drafted are injured by Week 5 and you have to spend the rest of the season looking at the scrap heap and trying to figure out which shitty replacement might score a touchdown in any given week. That may be a personal pet peeve rather than something that is actually effecting engagement on a large scale, but I can't imagine it's helping any.
I would agree with this. Fantasy (and gambling) has helped drive viewers to games that they wouldn't normally watch. Just last night, I forced myself to watch most of the shitty Bengals/Texans game because of my fantasy interest in AJ Green. But if fantasy starts getting impacted by these injuries, it's going to become less fun and I'll watch less and less of the non-Pats games as a result. I'm guessing I'm probably not alone in this.
I also think poor QB play is really becoming an issue. About half the teams in the league have QBs who I'd describe as being "meh or worse". Biases aside, the Pats/Saints game figures to be entertaining because you have the GOAT vs. another future HOFer. There are 14 other matchups on Sunday and only 1 game (GB/ATL) is a matchup where at least one of the QBs doesn't suck.
To pile on Lewis's absurd mediocrity (and laud the BB's ridiculous competence), Lewis broke the club record for point-diferential in 2015 with +140.
His previous best years were:
+125 : 2013
+71: 2012,2005
+42: 2006
+21: 2011, 2014
The Patriots have averaged +136 over BB's tenure. If you restrict it to the years that Lewis was in the league, it jumps to +160.
on the plus side, he was a lot better than LeBeau, or Coslet, who consistently put up -150 seasons (Lewis only had one of those)
Annual NFL revenues are about $14 billion. That sounds like a lot, but it really isn't -- for example, Kellogg's revenues are about $13 billion. Nobody thinks Kellogg's can stop (or even meaningfully influence) the trend away from packaged foods toward foodservice and fresh foods; why do we think the NFL can stop the decline in TV-watching and the fragmentation of the market that remains? The NFL's ratings are down for the same reasons that ratings for almost everything are down. This article provides a decent overview of the long-term macro trend, including some nifty charts.
http://www.marketingcharts.com/featured-24817
The NFL's Week 1 ratings drop was unexpectedly steep, especially considering the easy year-ago comps (we were having this same conversation last fall). Some of that is hurricane-related. If ratings don't bounce back somewhat in the next few weeks, then perhaps we can find fault with the NFL's marketing practices or conclude that some people have tuned out the sport for one reason or another. But I suspect we'll find those issues are marginal -- NFL ratings are part of a far larger trend that Goodell and the owners are powerless to influence; that's the main thing that's happening.
The NFL had no problem whatsoever keeping their ratings growing until 2016. Most of TV's ratings were dropping 5 years earlier or more. Maybe it was just a matter of time but in 2014 the NFL was huge, a dominate force in media and sport. It was the one thing that could buck the trend, until now.
Good point.
Why do we think the NFL was able to buck the trend earlier this decade? Did conditions that were working in their favor cease to exist, or did they just run their course? I don't remember hearing nearly as many theories about the NFL's earlier strength as we've heard lately about its weakness, even though that strength is, by far, the more interesting phenomenon.
The macro trend is so strong that I have to believe the NFL's luck was destined to run out. It's odd that so many people (including me) were surprised when it actually happened, and I suspect that's because most of us gave little thought to why the NFL was doing so inexplicably well until a couple years ago; we just sort of expected it to continue.
I'm with you 100%, my interest in the league overall now vs 4 or 5 years ago is night and day. I probably wouldn't watch at all on Sundays Patriots games aside if it weren't for The Red Zone; the overall flow of the game is awful, way too many TV time outs, it's just tedious to watch..................not to mention each week there are fewer and fewer compelling match ups, it's broken toilet team A vs tire fire team B..............next Thursday night is Rams at 49ers, are you shitting me, no thanks.
I think we did hear about the strength. Often. In 2013, 2014, the popularity of the NFL was constantly a topic, especially because almost every other form of televised entertainment was seeing a drop in ratings. The NFL's power was unsurpassed. I think if you look up my posts from back then, I was personally staking my reputation on the fact that the NFL was at its peak and a slide was inevitable. But it's been exacerbated by a variety of factors outside of just less people watching TV in general, in my opinion.
So the NFL might have just run its course. But I do not think it was that simple because the ratings would undoubtedly have dropped in 2012-2013, or at least leveled off. And they definitely did not. But with all the news, all the deplorable things the NFL has done, their abuse of the players, the league demeanor in general, and the suicides of the players with CTE in their 50's have all contributed to this recent slide. It's hard to imagine this flow of news isn't having an effect.
The NFL SUCKS. The owners are an abomination, the way they treat the players is ridiculous, they way they don't let any players have personality is woeful marketing, and the way Goodell punishes players is beyond off putting. They literally dragged one of the biggest NFL stars in history over an 18 month court case due to an alleged, insignificant drop in PSI. All of this is bad news and makes being a fan more difficult.
Thus, the ratings aren't just dropping, they are collapsing. Goodell is a horrific commissioner and the next NFL labor strife is going to be ugly. Plus the NFL product is pretty bad right now.(see last night's game) I do not think it can turn around, the NFL will not reach the heights it hit a few years ago, but I'm certainly not predicting the game is dying. Football will be here for my entire lifetime.
I think the rise of Fantasy helped prop up the NFL for the last 4-5 years to offset the decline that TV in general has experienced. I'm only currently watching for FF results and to experience the great run the Patriots are on. I stopped caring in general when I couldn't tell what a catch is anymore.
Bengals: Coach fired (albeit the wrong one), Qb struggling, star WR upset.
Let's get the Green to Pats for Jimmy rumors going!! He can be the new Fitzgerald or Andre Johndon.
Let's get the Green to Pats for Jimmy rumors going!! He can be the new Fitzgerald or Andre Johndon.
There was a pretty amazing confluence of events a few years ago with daily fantasy reaching a peak in addition to all the regular fantasy and gambling stuff, plus Ray Rice and the Brady stuff hadn't yet happened.
The league would do well to move on from Goodell and find a more competent commissioner (look at what Adam Silver has done for the NBA) to help fend off some of the inevitable decline.
The league would do well to move on from Goodell and find a more competent commissioner (look at what Adam Silver has done for the NBA) to help fend off some of the inevitable decline.
Absolute fact. Goodell is a major part of the problem. He's a tyrant and it's choking the sport.
I agree both with the critique that the flow of the game isn't great, and that realizing how much damage is being done to players makes the NFL, at best, a guilty pleasure that weighs guiltily on the viewer. But I do think Roger is key, too. The NBA and MLB (to a lesser degree, and after years of dropping) are experiencing a move in the opposite direction. So -- while I'm with Maufman that some of this is part of a general trend -- and I'm with others that some of it is matters specific to football (concussions etc), some of it also has to be the league's gross mis-management.
I think last year The Ringer looked into why the quality of play has gone done. The two biggest concerns were restricted practice time and the salary structure of the league making it more appealing to replace veteran players with rookies; which contributes to the lack of polished play. I would add in that same vein a lot of organizations are taking a cue from BB and shrewdly cutting veterans a year or two early and replacing them with draft picks. Since most teams don't have the scouting ability of BB nor the coaching of the Patriots' system to have the same results.
The lack of good QBs imo is kind of a misnomer. I don't think there are less competent QBs today than they were 10 years ago, but rather the demands of the QB position are greater than what they were in 2007 because the rules favor a vertical passing game. The result is teams are designed to have the Blake Bortles of the world taking to the air 35 times a game when that is something teams with a top ten QB would do in the past.
Don't really disagree but I still think that for a league that is now a passing league, we have far too many shitty QBs. It's clearly not the whole reason for the poor quality of play but teams like the Jets are screwed before they even take their first snap because of what they have at QB. At least Jacksonville is trying to be smart about it and is prioritizing the running game to protect against 20 Bortles misfires / game.
I think part of that is that the college game does not prepare QBs very well for the NFL. A lot of them are in spread offenses and other gimmick-based systems that involve simple reads and option plays; which a lot of them can get by on their athleticism. They get to the NFL and it is a million times more complicated than what they did in college. Most of them need to sit for a year and learn but since they are often top picks they get thrown right into the fire. It takes the right prospect, coaching and system for a rookie QB to not totally shit his pants. The flip side of this is QBs that are in "Pro style" offenses are often overvalued with the idea that they will adjust much faster (Brady Quinn, Jimmy Clausen, Christian Hackenschmidt). Someone who knows more about CF will probably have more to add.
Bortles is interesting because his second season was quite promising (4,400 yards, 35 TDS) which gave Jacksonville the idea they could run an offense based on him airing it out. The following season he regressed a lot, which is why the training wheels are back on this season.
the 2021 lockout couild be a disatner unlees both sides give owners no more thurday night football for 2 monday games or makeing the sunday 9 30 am kickoff every week and 3 games of preseason with 2 reg season byes per team to try and have the super bowl on pres day weekend players expand to rosters to 60 with 10 pra squad all rookies or 2nd year guys only no more overseas games ex in the preseason and the NFL wouild pay 1 guy per team sarly let say QB and not have it count on every team cap
fire goddell
make sunday ticket yahoo youtube only with a 150$ fee to just watch your team or 250$ to have every game
I think one of the things that is killling my enjoyment is the poor offensive line play. How can QBs develop if they are getting killed? The Cowboys and Raiders have great offensive lines and their young QBs are thriving. Seattle is considered a SB contender and yet their offense is putrid because of that line. I really worry about Watson behind that hideous o-line. What if he loses his confidence back there?
Line play has been hurt because of the spread offences in college football, lack of practice time and free agency making it hard to keep a line together.
Line play has been hurt because of the spread offences in college football, lack of practice time and free agency making it hard to keep a line together.
I'll offer a contrary take and say that I'm as excited for this NFL season as any in recent memory. My team just had its best-ever season, giving up a certain 28-3 lead notwithstanding, and I desperately want to see it get over the hump, which is certainly possible over the next few years. I suppose that if your team is hopeless or, alternatively, has won many, many Super Bowls this century, it might be easier for you to disengage from the league. But I can't quit it just yet.
Sam Bradford out against the Steelers. Should help the Steelers' defense look really good and lots of 8 man boxes for Dalvin Cook.
When did everything about pro sports the major networks do besides the actual games become an absolute shitshow*? I don't know why, but I just thought "let me put on the pre game and see what they are saying" and I see Bill Cowher in full costume acting out some Sean Payton bullshit. This is terrible.
*The one exception is TNT with basketball
*The one exception is TNT with basketball
Holy shit, Zach Ertz with a crazy catch may lead to 3 points.
Edit: Key word being may, since the rookie kicker yanked it left.
Edit: Key word being may, since the rookie kicker yanked it left.
The eagles d is impressive given the injuries and the chiefs last week.
The eagles are now down Jones, Darby, Watkins and McLeod in the secondary.
The pass rush is legit.
What a bizarre end to the 1st half.
Sproles fumbles (rare)
Eagles hold them to a field goal drilling Smith several times
Eagles throw with sub 10 seconds left, hits the safety bounces up ertz catches it and nearly scores. Then the rookie replacement kicker misses a fg lol
The eagles are now down Jones, Darby, Watkins and McLeod in the secondary.
The pass rush is legit.
What a bizarre end to the 1st half.
Sproles fumbles (rare)
Eagles hold them to a field goal drilling Smith several times
Eagles throw with sub 10 seconds left, hits the safety bounces up ertz catches it and nearly scores. Then the rookie replacement kicker misses a fg lol
Man the eagles dline is all over Smith.
To start the second half KC has gone all anti pass rush, hard counts, screens to RB, bubble screens underneath stuff and still Smith gets leveled several times.
KC goes hurry up too to try to tire them and they swap the whole line out and lose little. The line is 6-8 deep
To start the second half KC has gone all anti pass rush, hard counts, screens to RB, bubble screens underneath stuff and still Smith gets leveled several times.
KC goes hurry up too to try to tire them and they swap the whole line out and lose little. The line is 6-8 deep
Greg Olsen, who hasn't missed a game in like 10 years, on the Panthers' sideline in street clothes, on crutches. Was originally announced as a foot injury and likely to return. Not a good sign, obviously. Huge part of the Panthers' offense and by all accounts a good dude as well. Sucks.
Looking through the stats on games and Buffalo has 87 yards total offense through three quarters. I pity any of you stuck with this game today.
Kelce beasting in KC game.
Edit: and celebrates his TD by flapping his Eagle wings all over the field.
Edit: and celebrates his TD by flapping his Eagle wings all over the field.