Rex Ryan won't get another head coaching job? Really? I think you severely underestimate his coaching ability. He took them to the AFC title game 2 years in a row and routinely had outstanding defenses. His floor is a defensive coordinator but I doubt we've seen his last stop unless he chooses to retire.
2014 Jets: Report -- Rex & Idzik both to be let go
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Maybe moron was a little harsh. He's been overly budget conscious in free agency this year when it would have helped to be more aggressive. Especially when it comes to the secondary. They replaced Holmes with Decker which is an upgrade and Howard with Giacomini which is likely a lateral move while re-signing Pace and Folk. Those are all OK transactions but, if he's already butting heads with Ryan over personnel than he's already headed down a bumpy road.jon abbey said:
That being said there's plenty of time to bring in some "baragins" and try to have a decent draft but it doesn't look good right now.
SMU_Sox said:
I think he's a great/elite coordinator but I don't think he's suited to be a head coach.
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
They were 8-8 last year and how will their talent be worse than what they had last year? OL seems about the same, QB ended the season much better than he started it, so even if that was ephemeral I don't see how he could be worse (and it looks like Vick will come in, which I guess would be an improvement, too). If Ivory is healthy he's good, if he's not then...same as last year. The receivers got a decent upgrade in Decker. The defense only loses Cro, who was godawful last year, and much of that defense -- the DL, in particular -- is young, so they should improve. And they'll have decent position in the draft, though, hah!, thank to that 8-8 record not that great.
On the down side they were very lucky with injuries last year and very lucky to win a few games. So maybe their "real" record should have been closer to 6-10. But that seems like a floor for next year, too, they're by no means terrible.
And, as others have said, they have a head coach who has a record of over-achieving teams. Personally I think Rex has limits, but for a so-so team he's a good match because it's undeniable his players always play hard.
That said, I agree with the premise that idzik:
1: hasn't fucked anything up royally
2: hasn't missed out on a golden opportunity to snag someone
3: it may that another year of laying low is a good strategy.
But two counter-counters.
1: the DRC non-signing did reek of incompetence. If you don't want him, fine. But it seems Idzik did want him only he screwed the negotiations and tried to rescue himself with a big offer too late. That's incompetent.
2: you're underestimating how quickly things can turn around in the NFL. Going from a lucky 8-8 to a 10-6 playoff slot is a small jump. There's no reason to think the Jets need a Philadelphia 76ers NBA-style tank job to turn things around. They need a QB to turn things around. Maybe Vick is that guy, though I tend to think Josh McCown would have been a good interim guy.
The off-season's not over and DeSean Jackson seems like a natural fit for the Jets. They need explosive talent. Personally I think if they'd signed DRC, McCown, and then swung a trade with some of the rest of their cap space for Jackson, they'd be a playoff team next year.
Who knows, could still work out. Maybe Jonathan Joseph is dumped to the Jets for salary reasons, the Jets do pick up Jackson in a trade, and Michael Vick is better than I think.
What you think isn't relevant though. Rex would have another hC job in a second. This is the same league the Jim Caldwell just got a second shot inEck'sSneakyCheese said:
Tony C said:
Regardless of how bad Cromartie was, Wilson and Milliner weren't much better (and should be considered worse). And, while Wilson is obviously younger, the meager amount of success he's had (at least by memory, since I have no access to PFF) was as a slot corner.
They have one redeeming part of their entire roster, and it's their defensive line. Aside from Wilkerson, their second best player is...another 3-4 defensive end (Richardson). We all sit here and talk about how losing WIlfork isn't a huge deal in today's NFL, and their best two players are defensive tackles/defensive ends. Their third best player is miles behind their top two, and will also be 34 years old when the season starts (Pace). Unless you think David Harris is their 3rd best player, in which he's still on the wrong side of 30 and has been hot and cold his entire career. There's also their two starting safeties, who are 32 and 36 years old. The defense consists of 2 solid DT's, old/older players, and young players who just aren't that good.
I doubt Wilkerson plays any better than he did last year (how could he? he was a stud), but there's a legit possibility that their older players fall off a cliff (or continue their free fall).
Tony C said:
Yes. They were incredibly lucky to win a few games they should have lost last year. They were also very lucky with injuries.
Their strength of schedule last year was also .496, which would be in the bottom third of the league. Their strength of schedule this year would be .520, which would be the 9th toughest schedule in the NFL. While a teams past success isn't determinate on their future success, their is a very real possibility that they have a few injuries, don't get a few lucky bounces, and play a significantly harder schedule this year. So, 6-10 could actually be closer to their ceiling opposed to their floor.
Tony C said:
Oh, come on. Enough of this crap.
Their last 3 years they were 8-8, 6-10, and 8-8. They've been a mediocre team, and they've had a mediocre roster. There's been nothing "over-achieving" about them.
NortheasternPJ said:
Rex is a defensive genius but a mediocre head coach. IF he coaches again after the Jets, and again I think it's doubtful, he at least spends a year as someone's D coordinator. I believe that the next couple years could make or break his career. It's not only the on the field stuff either, it's the shit he pulls in the media too. He likes to run his mouth and that can be a detriment to his talent.
Believe me, I understand that there's always a terrible organization like the Lions who are willing to give dreck a second chance as well. I think personality factors into it, or with Caldwell, the lack thereof.
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
I'll buy that they haven't really overachieved as I'm not really a full-on Rex guy, but I think you make my point in terms of the larger debate on tanking: if they haven't been overachieving then they've been basically a .500 team over the last 3 years with bottom of the barrel play at the most important position on the roster. If that's your given, I don't see how it can be argued that the Jets should be tanking.
It's sort of the dream GM job in a sense: a solid base of talent (above average talent if you assume the QB position is what has pulled them back to .500 (or a touch below), an owner willing to spend, and a ton of cap room. That money has allowed you to improve your awful WR situation, could have allowed you to improve the biggest D weakness at CB, and with Jackson out there could permit you to get the sort of dynamic weapon this team needs. That and improvement at QB to something closer to league average would indicate better results than the .500 level mediocrity of the last 3 years and a wild card at 10-6 would be a perfectly reasonable goal for anyone with competitive spirit. I don't say that I'd put money on them making the playoffs, but it seems far from a tanking situation and Idzik can be blamed for not (so far) seizing the moment.
Put differently, even without the hypothetical pick-up of DeSean Jackson, I have a very hard time seeing this team winning fewer than 6 games and would be shocked if they won less than 5. So, yes, fewer wins will equal better draft position, but I don't see how it'd put the Jets in a position to draft a stud #1 QB - it'd put them somewhere near where the Bills are in this draft, for example. That QB position will remain a hole to be filled unless they can hit on a non-top 5 pick or rely on a trade or free agency.
Vick to the Jets you say? How about a WR to go with that?
Ian Rapoport
#Jets host Michael Vick Friday & worth noting they are among teams who have inquired about DeSean Jackson via trade. Vick & DeSean are close
Ian Rapoport
#Jets host Michael Vick Friday & worth noting they are among teams who have inquired about DeSean Jackson via trade. Vick & DeSean are close
Just read this on PFT:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/20/rex-ryan-i-feel-really-good-about-our-cornerbacks/
and this stood out:
Apparently they signed him back in January. Did anyone else see this? I think it's hilarious that he's even in the discussion at corner for the Jets.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/20/rex-ryan-i-feel-really-good-about-our-cornerbacks/
and this stood out:
Apparently they signed him back in January. Did anyone else see this? I think it's hilarious that he's even in the discussion at corner for the Jets.
Why does Rex pigeonhole himself so often with comments like these? Just shut your damn mouth. In no way does his statement help his football team. If I were a Jets fan I would hate this shit.
lambeau said:
Or until he throws his first PIC 6.
The New York Jets, aka, the gift that keeps on giving, 45 years and counting.
I'm not upset that Vick is there. It'll still be a trainwreck. I'm upset that Sanchez is out; I wanted Rex and Sanchez together for as long as possible.Ed Hillel said:
Boston Brawler said:
Wait until they use that money freed up by Sanchize to pay for DeSean Jackson. When DeSean realizes Vick can't hit him anymore/can't deal with Geno, things will really get interesting.
I'm excited to hear the contract details on Vick.
NFL on ESPN @ESPNNFL 3hEd Hillel said:
UPDATE: Jets gave Michael Vick a one-year, $5 million deal. (via @AdamSchefter)
Ed Hillel said:
I read on Jets Insider it's 1 year/5 million, I forget what reporter put those numbers out there.............
I don't know why you would do this apart from grabbing the back page on the tabloids.
It's not that Vick is bad. He was exemplary last year in Philly In every respect. It's instead that he's long in the tooth and fragile. And the nanosecond Geno struggles, the circus will be back in town. This is not conducive to Geno becoming a long term answer.
It's not that Vick is bad. He was exemplary last year in Philly In every respect. It's instead that he's long in the tooth and fragile. And the nanosecond Geno struggles, the circus will be back in town. This is not conducive to Geno becoming a long term answer.
M
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Vick? A terrible QB?
He gets injured a lot because he realizes a lot of his value is in scrambling. But the guy generally makes good decisions, extends plays, and probably has an NFL-average QB arm. He's not top-5 or anything, and he's old and oft-injured, but when he's on the field he's pretty productive.
He gets injured a lot because he realizes a lot of his value is in scrambling. But the guy generally makes good decisions, extends plays, and probably has an NFL-average QB arm. He's not top-5 or anything, and he's old and oft-injured, but when he's on the field he's pretty productive.
The Raiders just traded a 6th round pick for Matt Schaub and his 14 million dollar cap hit. Vick is unreliable at this stage, but I don't think he's a bad QB by any means when he's on the field, though I suspect he won't age gracefully.
I can't stress enough how entertaining the gang green forums are right now. Between the Pats "must be scared now!" To the Sanchez lovers being upset and the dog lovers being upset it's the perfect storm.
Vick is better than anything they've had in 6 years. His health is a concern. As is their plan with what to do with Geno.
Jets fans at their Sisyphean best.NortheasternPJ said:
Even if it WERE true that the Pats should be scared (of course it's not), wouldn't you wait until you had a modicum of sustained success to say it? This is what fascinates me about the Jets fans. When rooting for the pre-04 Sox, I would never have said, "the Yankees must be scared" regardless of the situation.
Vick is an exciting player to watch, past his prime, and given his style, a concussion waiting to happen. While Rex's support for Geno is understandable, I think Pat fans were just given a summer side dish of QB controversy Florham Park style by the acquisition.
But they need a backup. So if they are leaning towards giving Geno a shot this year, Vick is a good backup to get.dcmissle said:
If the Jets signed a pocket passer they might have more trouble slotting him in behind Smith.
Unless they see Vick as the starter and Geno as the backup. Then all bets are off.
I never understand teams that have their top 2 quarterbacks with different styles. I know Vick isn't the tuck and run guy he used to be, but its just a waste of practice time to have one set of plays for one guy and a different set for another. Since its the Jets, they get a pass on my level of frustration, but if they had any balls they'd trade Geno to Cleveland, sign Tebow back, draft Jordan Lynch, and run a wing T spread offense all year. We could bet on who gets concussed first, Vick, Tebow, or Lynch.
I think Vick is the perfect signing...
...for Pats fans.
Vick is aging yes -- he'll turn 34 before training camp starts.
He has declining skills. More accurately, he has declining skills across the board while maintaining his horrific turnover rates and a long streak of not playing more than 13 games since 2006. 2006 is also the last and only time he played all 16 games in his entire career that started in 2001.
Some numbers, first the traditional stats:
[tablegrid= Traditional Stats ] Started Cmp% TD AY/A QBR Rush Yds INT Fumbles Appr. Value 2010 12 62.6 21 8.5 100.2 676 6 11 15 2011 13 59.8 18 7.2 84.9 589 14 10 13 2012 10 58.1 12 6.1 78.1 332 10 11 7 2013 6 54.6 5 8.4 86.5 306 3 4 5
And from PFF from the same time period:
[tablegrid= PFF Stats ] Overall Pass Rush PFF QBR PFF QBR RK Accuracy Acc. RK 2010 11.8 -2.0 12.7 93.6 #3 76.3 #3 2011 10.5 10.1 2.7 88.0 #11 73.4 #10 2012 -11.4 -9.9 -3.2 81.4 #22 71.2 #17 2013 -0.2 -4.3 4.3 83.1 Not ranked 66.4 Not ranked
To me, some telling things about Vick's last 4 years are:
I get the rationalization behind the signing. Vick can either compete for the starting job ("best QB since Brett Favre" is how one TGG poster described it) or play a mentor role for young Smith.
Looking into past performances however, it does not matter who'll be behind the center for the Jets in 2014. It's going to be rough, more downs than up.
And that's nothing but good news for this Pats fan.
Tl;dr: Vick is not a "decent" starter in the NFL anymore, and not necessary a better option than Smith. But either will miss a ton of throws and make a lot of turnovers. Let the good times continue.
...for Pats fans.
Vick is aging yes -- he'll turn 34 before training camp starts.
He has declining skills. More accurately, he has declining skills across the board while maintaining his horrific turnover rates and a long streak of not playing more than 13 games since 2006. 2006 is also the last and only time he played all 16 games in his entire career that started in 2001.
Some numbers, first the traditional stats:
[tablegrid= Traditional Stats ]
And from PFF from the same time period:
[tablegrid= PFF Stats ]
To me, some telling things about Vick's last 4 years are:
- Vick's accuracy fell by over 5% via traditional measures (2010-2012), and a whopping 9.9% via PFF measures (2010-2013)
- Meanwhile, Vick's yards/attempt has also decreased 2.4 yards
- His rush PFF ratings have dropped like a rock, from the high of 12.7 grade in 2010 to -3.2 in 2012, before bouncing back a bit in 2013
- INT: 0.804 per game started
- Fumbles lost: 0.317 per game started
- Total turnover: 1.121 per game started
- Fumble Leaders: #1, #2, #4, #38 in overall fumbles
- INT: 1.112 per games started (69 INTs over 62 GS)
- Fumbles lost: 0.258 per games started (43 fumbles / 16 fumbles lost over 62 GS)
- Total turnover: 1.370 per game started
- Fumble Leaders: #9, #9, #9, #2 in overall fumbles
- INT: 1.312 per games started (21 INTs over 16 GS)
- Fumbles lost: 0.25 per games started (8 fumbles / 4 fumbles lost over 16 GS)
- Total turnover: 1.562 per game started
- Fumble Leaders: #9 in overall fumbles
- Vick won't last the full season, Geno will play at least 4-16 games no matter who's named the starter after camp
- Expect anywhere from 1 to 1.5 turnovers per game just from the QB position alone
- Lot of missed throws (55%-58% cmp) from either Vick or Smith
- Not a rushing threat from either QB (health issues for Vick, not a natural runner for Smith)
I get the rationalization behind the signing. Vick can either compete for the starting job ("best QB since Brett Favre" is how one TGG poster described it) or play a mentor role for young Smith.
Looking into past performances however, it does not matter who'll be behind the center for the Jets in 2014. It's going to be rough, more downs than up.
And that's nothing but good news for this Pats fan.
Tl;dr: Vick is not a "decent" starter in the NFL anymore, and not necessary a better option than Smith. But either will miss a ton of throws and make a lot of turnovers. Let the good times continue.
Super Nomario said:
True! How silly of me.
Also added fumble "leaders" for all 3 QBs discussed. Except for Vick's 6-game season in 2013, all finished no "worse" than 9th in overall fumbles. (overall fumbles seem to be more indicative than fumbles lost).
A few more numbers from PFF circa 2012, the last year Vick played under Jets OC Marty Mornhinweg (all numbers are for QBs with at least 50% snaps played):
How short memories we all have: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/01/21/michael-vick-reportedly-not-interested-in-joining-marty-mornhinweg-jets/
- Overall: #23 out of 27, between Philip Rivers and Christian Ponder
- Pass: #23 out of 27, between Josh Freeman and Mark Sanchez
- Run: #26 out of 27, between Brandon Weedon and Mark Sanchez
- Yards/Attempt: #22 out of 27, between Ryan Fitzpatrick and Brandon Weeden (Vick as a running threat is simply no longer true)
- Comp %: #22 out of 27, between Ryan Tannehill and Cam Newton
- Under Pressure: #25 out of 27, between Christian Ponder and Andy Dalton
- Play Action: #12 out of 27, between Sam Bradford and Carson Palmer
- TD: #26 out of 27, tied with Ryan Tannehill
- INT: #5 out of 27, tied with Russell Wilson and Joe Flacco
- QBR: #23 out of 27, between Matthew Stafford and Andrew Luck
How short memories we all have: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/01/21/michael-vick-reportedly-not-interested-in-joining-marty-mornhinweg-jets/
Piling on. QB DYAR in 2012 confirms both traditional or PFF grades: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2012
Coincidentally, Vick also rated out as #27th QB in his shortened 2013 season as well: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
So the question is, if Vick is clearly a bottom-of-the-league starter, is the signing really a positive move for the Jets if he is also not quite willing to play the mentor role: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/21/vick-sends-mixed-message-in-his-first-comments-with-the-jets/
and also invite never-ending scrutiny of his past from the national media: http://nesn.com/2014/03/espns-michelle-beadle-does-not-forgive-michael-vicks-dog-fighting/
Coincidentally, Vick also rated out as #27th QB in his shortened 2013 season as well: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
So the question is, if Vick is clearly a bottom-of-the-league starter, is the signing really a positive move for the Jets if he is also not quite willing to play the mentor role: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/21/vick-sends-mixed-message-in-his-first-comments-with-the-jets/
and also invite never-ending scrutiny of his past from the national media: http://nesn.com/2014/03/espns-michelle-beadle-does-not-forgive-michael-vicks-dog-fighting/
to the hungry NY media? http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/myers-adding-vick-dog-gang-green-article-1.1727531
RedOctober3829 said:
LOL thanks RO.
Here's a more pressing 40,000 ft question for Idzik & Ryan.
They were both willing to literally sacrifice Sanchez (another controversial, struggling QB with a huge turnover ratio) in pre-season and getting him out of the way for Smith.
Now, in just one year, Idzik & Ryan duo seems to have completely reversed course and will not "coddle" (media quote) Smith. To me this is a 360 degree turnaround.
If I were a Jets fan, I could have defended Idzik on standing firm on his approach & philosophy re: free agency. But now the impression would be Idzik is willing to blow in the wind, especially regarding the most important position on the field.
Real test? That could be if Jets do go out of their way to sign DeSean "The Diva" Jackson and eat up more of his cap reserve and setup another tent in the circus.
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