2014 Training Camp Thread

[dcmissle]

Not sure I would bother if that's the return
 

https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/497371844052537344

https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/497371844052537344

link to tweet

It's amusing how all of us resent paying for insurance. With Brady entering one of his final seasons, Revis here for maybe his only season, and a rookie 3rd stringer, Mallet may be the most compelling insurance value around.

It's never as simple as, if Brady goes down we are screwed anyways. Green Bay provides a very recent contrary case study.

 

[ethangl]

It's never as simple as, if Brady goes down we are screwed anyways. Green Bay provides a very recent contrary case study.

 
Contrary only because the rest of the NFCC is utterly incompetent and– actually... yeah, that seems roughly analogous to the AFCE. Never mind.

 

[Stitch01]

It would be criminal to have Brady miss six weeks with the talent on this team and miss the playoffs by a game because the quarterback completely broke the team. Unless someone goes completely off the reservation and offers a first rounder and competent backup QB for Mallet, which is never happening, he has more value to the Pats at this point than in trade.

 

[Super Nomario]

It would be criminal to have Brady miss six weeks with the talent on this team and miss the playoffs by a game because the quarterback completely broke the team. Unless someone goes completely off the reservation and offers a first rounder and competent backup QB for Mallet, which is never happening, he has more value to the Pats at this point than in trade.

And if something like that happened and Mallett played well, the Pats could potentially franchise him and trade him after the season. That's what they did with Cassel. Trading Mallett now makes almost no sense, especially since (predictably, given the adjustments from Eastern Illinois to the pros) Garoppolo has been struggling in the preseason.

 

[Pumpsie]

And if something like that happened and Mallett played well, the Pats could potentially franchise him and trade him after the season. That's what they did with Cassel. Trading Mallett now makes almost no sense, especially since (predictably, given the adjustments from Eastern Illinois to the pros) Garoppolo has been struggling in the preseason.

Exactly.  Garoppolo obviously will not be ready to lead this team this year.  This team is set up to be a championship contender this year and next.  If Brady suffers a severe injury, you throw out that possibility.  With Mallett, you still have a chance.  Without him you don't.  And try to get Darelle Revis to resign here if both Brady and Mallett are not going to be around.  Lots of ramifications if they need Mallett and they don't have him.  Not worth the chance, seeing how they've spent three years getting him to this point. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

If you could get someone to send over a third round pick though, would you do it? The only reason I would consider it is because of Kyle Orton being paid by to Cowboys to sit at home. Could he be had for the vet minimum? He has experience in a McDaniels system and I don't think he would be any worse than Mallett at this point. I'd rather take the pick instead of letting Mallett walk and hope for a decent comp pick.

 

[Jungleland]

If Orton is no worse than Mallett, then no one is giving up a third for Mallett. 

 

[Super Nomario]

If you could get someone to send over a third round pick though, would you do it? The only reason I would consider it is because of Kyle Orton being paid by to Cowboys to sit at home. Could he be had for the vet minimum? He has experience in a McDaniels system and I don't think he would be any worse than Mallett at this point. I'd rather take the pick instead of letting Mallett walk and hope for a decent comp pick.

Third round, I would think about it but not do it. Second round, I would think about it and probably do it. First round I would do without thinking about it. I don't see anything like that haul coming back for Mallett, who given that he would have missed his new team's OTAs and a couple weeks of preseason at this point.
 
There's a pretty good chance Orton retires from what I understand. What's Rohan Davey up to?

 

[Spelunker]

Third round, I would think about it but not do it. Second round, I would think about it and probably do it. First round I would do without thinking about it. I don't see anything like that haul coming back for Mallett, who given that he would have missed his new team's OTAs and a couple weeks of preseason at this point.
 
There's a pretty good chance Orton retires from what I understand. What's Rohan Davey up to?

Playing golf with Michael Bishop?

 

[RedOctober3829]

Third round, I would think about it but not do it. Second round, I would think about it and probably do it. First round I would do without thinking about it. I don't see anything like that haul coming back for Mallett, who given that he would have missed his new team's OTAs and a couple weeks of preseason at this point.
 
There's a pretty good chance Orton retires from what I understand. What's Rohan Davey up to?

Fun Rohan Davey story: I was a training camp intern with Arizona in 2006.  Rohan was in camp competing for a spot.  I got pretty friendly with him as I worked with the QBs on a daily basis. He got cut towards the end of camp.  So, he took us all interns out to the strip club and everything was on him.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Fun Rohan Davey story: I was a training camp intern with Arizona in 2006.  Rohan was in camp competing for a spot.  I got pretty friendly with him as I worked with the QBs on a daily basis. He got cut towards the end of camp.  So, he took us all interns out to the strip club and everything was on him.

 
That's a heartwarming story -- glad he gave those ladies a chance to pursue higher learning (as well as the interns).  
 
Edit: he's on the AFL's San Antonio Talons roster after a five-year absence! http://www.sanantoniotalons.com/roster/rohan-davey/

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

Fun Rohan Davey story: I was a training camp intern with Arizona in 2006.  Rohan was in camp competing for a spot.  I got pretty friendly with him as I worked with the QBs on a daily basis. He got cut towards the end of camp.  So, he took us all interns out to the strip club and everything was on him.

By everything on him you mean the strippers?

 

[RedOctober3829]

By everything on him you mean the strippers?

Absolutely.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
Has Garrapollo really looked that bad? Heh.

It has nothing to do with Garapopollo as he isnt close to being ready to play nor should he be. The only chance we will have to get any return on Mallett is in the coming weeks and the only way he's moved is if an experienced QB is acquired or available to be acquired.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

By everything on him you mean the strippers?

Hoping he didn't mean the interns.

 

[RedOctober3829]

LANDOVER, Md. -- New England Patriots defensive tackle Chris Jones is likely to miss the rest of the preseason with a left ankle injury suffered in Thursday night's preseason opener, according to a source. Jones is to have more tests today on the ankle, but the initial diagnosis is that the injury isn't a season-ending type of situation and that Jones dodged what could have been a more serious injury had it affected his knee.
 

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4765907/following-up-on-dt-chris-jones-injury?ex_cid=espnapi_public

 

[Tony C]

well, we're getting some competition for the IR-DTR slot. I wonder if Easley will be ready for week 1 or if he's part of that competition, too -- rather unfortunate pile up of injuries at DT.

 

[Stitch01]

Easley is like Dobson, he'll just get PUP'd if he's not ready. I don't think Jones or Silinga are likely to get the IR-DTR spot, they'll get IRd if their injuries are long-term or will just be inactive for a couple of weeks.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

I think we will see a roster move that will be a pretty good indicator of how close Easley is to getting on the field:
 
1. If they pick up a UDFA then it's likely to just have a body on the team for practice purposes
2. If they pick up whatever serviceable veteran might be out there, then it may be someone competing to play while the Silinga, Jones and Easley situations work themselves out

 

[Saints Rest]

Can someone remind me on the IR-DTR rules?  Does the person have to play in Week 1?  Or at least be on the 53-man roster?  Once on that list, the earliest they can be reactivated is in Week 8?  Is that a hard deadline or is there a "no earlier than/no later than" window a la PUP?

 

[Tony C]

earliest reactivated is 9th game -- they have to miss 8 weeks.
 
edit: I don't think they have to be activated at any point...if the guy is still injured then I think he can just stay on IR. The one tricky thing in re the final 53 is that player has to be counted toward the final 53 so it doesn't allow a team to avoid cutting someone who they fear will be picked up by another team. They can immediately pick that guy back up once the the guy from the IR-DTR guy is designated and removed from the 53 man roster, of course.

 

[Stitch01]

Can someone remind me on the IR-DTR rules?  Does the person have to play in Week 1?  Or at least be on the 53-man roster?  Once on that list, the earliest they can be reactivated is in Week 8?  Is that a hard deadline or is there a "no earlier than/no later than" window a la PUP?

Don't believe there is a no later than window.

 

[tims4wins]

Here is what I don't understand about the rule: I think everyone who gets placed on IR should be eligible to return, but the team can only choose one guy to come back. Why make the team choose who can come back when injuries take various amounts of time to heal, and new injuries pop up? Say the worst injury the Pats get in camp is Siliga. So they designate him IR-DTR. Then in week one someone suffers an injury that will put him out 10-12 weeks. The Pats would either have to put that player on IR and lose him for the year, or put him inactive for 10-12 weeks and lose the roster spot.
 
In short, I don't see what competitive advantage could be gained by having everyong ELIGIBLE to return, but only being allowed to bring one player back.
 
What am I missing?

 

[mascho]

Reiss serving a warm cup of "chill the hell out" re: Mallett this morning.
 

Quarterback Ryan Mallett did an excellent job to feel backside pressure on the initial third-and-8, stepping up to avoid Brian Orakpo -- who blistered left tackle Nate Solder with a speed rush -- and hitting Brandon LaFell with an on-the-run throw for the first down. The play, of course, was negated by a holding penalty on Solder. The Patriots called on a four-receiver package and naturally sent all four into pass routes, while the Redskins rushed just four and dropped seven into coverage. The Patriots’ inability to protect Mallett against a standard four-man rush tilted the downfield numbers in favor of Washington, but Mallett still made the play (just as he did on a third-and-10 conversion later in the quarter to Josh Boyce). That’s one reason we weren’t ready to blast his performance immediately after the game. It wasn’t all bad.

 

[amarshal2]

Here is what I don't understand about the rule: I think everyone who gets placed on IR should be eligible to return, but the team can only choose one guy to come back. Why make the team choose who can come back when injuries take various amounts of time to heal, and new injuries pop up? Say the worst injury the Pats get in camp is Siliga. So they designate him IR-DTR. Then in week one someone suffers an injury that will put him out 10-12 weeks. The Pats would either have to put that player on IR and lose him for the year, or put him inactive for 10-12 weeks and lose the roster spot.
 
In short, I don't see what competitive advantage could be gained by having everyong ELIGIBLE to return, but only being allowed to bring one player back.
 
What am I missing?

 
They're trying to keep teams from gaming the 53 man roster system and using IR to stash players as insurance.  I for one have zero doubts that BB would take full advantage of this if given the opportunity.  He already tries to do this by cutting/waiving guys that nobody else wants.  This would enable him to keep a deeper roster of better players.

 

[tims4wins]

 
They're trying to keep teams from gaming the 53 man roster system and using IR to stash players as insurance.  I for one have zero doubts that BB would take full advantage of this if given the opportunity.  He already tries to do this by cutting/waiving guys that nobody else wants.  This would enable him to keep a deeper roster of better players.

 
But if you are only allowed to bring back ONE player who has been placed on IR, there is no way to game the system. Am I wrong?

 

[lexrageorge]

 
But if you are only allowed to bring back ONE player who has been placed on IR, there is no way to game the system. Am I wrong?

I think the idea is that a team could theoretically create a "taxi squad" of a number of players and put them on IR.  And then figure out in week 8 which player to activate.  For example, if a bunch of running backs go down to injury, then the team could activate an RB from the IR list.  Or, if the team needed a LB, they could activate an LB from the list.  
 
As it is, teams can keep 8 players inactive on game day, plus have the IR-DTR for a player who sustains an injury early in the season.  And there is the PUP list to protect teams from losing players that are rehabbing from prior season injuries.  I hated the old system where there was no IR-DTR; at least now there is some flexibility.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Even if such a loophole did exist, what makes you guys think Bill Belichick would even take advantage of it?

 

[Stitch01]

I think there should be more spots, there might be some gaming but having to sit for 8 weeks is a deterrent its a better product if better players are on the field later in the year.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Reiss serving a warm cup of "chill the hell out" re: Mallett this morning.
 

Mallett's performance certainly wasn't "all bad" as he made throws that Brady may not have completed due to his arm strength and just so happened to be accurate on those specific passes. His problem continues to be consistency from play to play and it's frustrating to see from someone with such ability.

He's the ultimate tease.

 

[tims4wins]

I think the idea is that a team could theoretically create a "taxi squad" of a number of players and put them on IR.  And then figure out in week 8 which player to activate.  For example, if a bunch of running backs go down to injury, then the team could activate an RB from the IR list.  Or, if the team needed a LB, they could activate an LB from the list.  
 
As it is, teams can keep 8 players inactive on game day, plus have the IR-DTR for a player who sustains an injury early in the season.  And there is the PUP list to protect teams from losing players that are rehabbing from prior season injuries.  I hated the old system where there was no IR-DTR; at least now there is some flexibility.

 
But if only one guy could be activated from the "taxi squad" - one guy per SEASON, like the current rules - then you lose all the other guys for the rest of the year (just like the current system). I don't see an advantage to be gained if EVERY player who is placed on IR is ELIGIBLE to return, but only ONE can return per SEASON. There are no loopholes to be exploited here. It would just mean that you could bring back the ONE player who you thought would help your team most. And instead of being hamstrung into identifying that player when the injury occurs, you could use it as you see fit. Edit: I mean, it should be used to bring back the best player you have that happens to get hurt and has to miss time, right?
 
Fully agreed on the second point.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Mallett's performance certainly wasn't "all bad" as he made throws that Brady may not have completed due to his arm strength and just so happened to be accurate on those specific passes. His problem continues to be consistency from play to play and it's frustrating to see from someone with such ability.

He's the ultimate tease.

 
The worse part of the tease is that some of his issues seem like the type that might be solved through simply playing more.  The bounced pass to LaFell, the laser rocket thrown on a screen pass, etc... To me these look like either a guy that simply has no feel/touch for his passes or a guy who is just playing to fast.  More snaps against live, first rate competition might lead to the game slowing down for RM.  If that happened then you might have a pretty good QB.  OR he really is just a guy with no touch/feel and this is the best you are going to get.  I don't think thats a gamble that many GMs would make.

 

[rodderick]

Mallett's performance certainly wasn't "all bad" as he made throws that Brady may not have completed due to his arm strength and just so happened to be accurate on those specific passes. His problem continues to be consistency from play to play and it's frustrating to see from someone with such ability.

He's the ultimate tease.

 
There wasn't a single throw made by Mallett yesterday that Brady couldn't make. Brady can rifle in the intermediate passes with the best of them, his struggles with the deep ball are often confused for a lack of arm strength, but that has never been the case. 
 
Mallett rushes throws, has trouble setting his feet, has no touch on short passes and can be woefully inaccurate in spurts. That has been the book on him from day one, and apparently not much has changed. Nobody ever doubted his ability to throw a deep out on a rope, so it doesn't really impress me if that's the main positive we can gather from his performance.

 

[amarshal2]

 
But if only one guy could be activated from the "taxi squad" - one guy per SEASON, like the current rules - then you lose all the other guys for the rest of the year (just like the current system). I don't see an advantage to be gained if EVERY player who is placed on IR is ELIGIBLE to return, but only ONE can return per SEASON. There are no loopholes to be exploited here. It would just mean that you could bring back the ONE player who you thought would help your team most. And instead of being hamstrung into identifying that player when the injury occurs, you could use it as you see fit. Edit: I mean, it should be used to bring back the best player you have that happens to get hurt and has to miss time, right?
 
Fully agreed on the second point.

Now I understand your point and agree with you.

 

[mascho]

Reiss follows-up his earlier piece with a review of the second quarter.  Mallett's struggles "start to surface."
 

1. Following up on Ryan Mallett, there were five throws in this quarter that were poor – a low delivery to Brandon LaFell on third-and-4 to end the opening drive of the quarter, a low throw to Kenbrell Thompkins that technically wasn’t a play because there was illegal contact down the field, a rushed throw to running back Roy Finch in the right flat that appeared to require a little more patience to let develop, a skipping pass to LaFell to open the final drive of the quarter and an airmailed screen to Finch that had a chance if it was dropped in the bucket. Mallett was better in the first quarter than the second, and he could have been helped more by receiver Josh Boyce on one second-down play when Boyce cut his route directly into where the defender had leverage while Mallett wanted him to take it up the field. Mallett’s best throw was an 11-yard completion to Thompkins on third-and-10. Those throws just weren’t made consistently enough in this quarter.

 
I'm spitballing here, but I wonder if part of the problem with Mallett is that the NEP offensive scheme does not fit his strengths as a QB.  Put him in a system like Baltimore, with more downfield throws, deeper crossing routes, fewer choice routes, and he might be better suited.  I'd have to take some time and look at his college film to explore this further, but it's a thought.  

 

[Silverdude2167]

Mallett rushes throws, has trouble setting his feet, has no touch on short passes and can be woefully inaccurate in spurts. That has been the book on him from day one, and apparently not much has changed. Nobody ever doubted his ability to throw a deep out on a rope, so it doesn't really impress me if that's the main positive we can gather from his performance.

Mallett just does not seem to fit the Pats system. I think he might have value in a more vertical offense.
 
The difference between watching Mallett and JG (not accounting for the different in quality of opponent faced) seems to be how they fit into the system developed around 14 years of Brady. Not saying JG will develop into anything, but from that half of football he appears to have a better skill set for the Pats offense.

 

[DJnVa]

Following up on Ryan Mallett, there were five throws in this quarter that were poor
 

 
Five poor throws in one quarter is kind of horrific.
 
"Hey Buchholz wasn't bad for the Sox last night, he only had 3 poor innings."

 

[dynomite]

Reiss notes this morning that Connolly played Center with the B team in the 1st half while Wendell played with the C team in the 2nd half, and wonders what this means for the competition.

Obviously hard to gauge without seeing where Stork would have played.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Reiss follows-up his earlier piece with a review of the second quarter.  Mallett's struggles "start to surface."
 
 
 
 
I'm spitballing here, but I wonder if part of the problem with Mallett is that the NEP offensive scheme does not fit his strengths as a QB.  Put him in a system like Baltimore, with more downfield throws, deeper crossing routes, fewer choice routes, and he might be better suited.  I'd have to take some time and look at his college film to explore this further, but it's a thought.  

 
I think that's fair, and I'm sure some of his issues could be alleviated with fewer options, but the stuff that's wrong with Mallett is primarily in his head. It just seems like he doesn't have the ability to slow things down.
 
He threw a ton of balls into the dirt 2-3 feet in front of his receivers. That screams to me "you're gripping the ball too tight". He tries to throw the ball through people and ends up getting the nose of the ball pointed down. And Mallett knows that. He's a 4th year NFL QB, of course he knows that. The fact that he was doing it so frequently implies that he was moving too fast, had the yips, or some combination of the two. It explains his lack of control on screen passes and his lack of accuracy. The guy either (A) can't slow the game down in his head or (B) can't catch up to the play on the field (are those two things the same? I dunno.)
 
Either way, it's a real cause for concern. Having trouble making reads or knowing what windows to pass into are things that can be worked out over time. But the NFL graveyard is littered with talented QB's who couldn't stop rushing plays or panicking in the pocket. I've seen the same results from Ryan Mallett for 3 years. I have no hope of him becoming an NFL ready quarterback.

 

[Reverend]

Did you watch the post-game? Guy was, uh... let's call it "wound up."
 
Edit: Post-game is worth watching just to see Belichick. From his comments, you would have thought we had just lost the proverbial Mars Game and were going to be colonized by aliens on account of their performance.

 

[dcmissle]

Was BB funny?

Here is just one of the things that makes him great -- there was NFW Tom Brady would be exposed for even one play against a crew eager to impress its rookie coach and that included one guy, Orakpo, playing with a sense of great grievance after being franchised. If the o-line right now is just a for shit WIP, Tom can just take a seat over there.

 

[lexrageorge]

 
I think that's fair, and I'm sure some of his issues could be alleviated with fewer options, but the stuff that's wrong with Mallett is primarily in his head. It just seems like he doesn't have the ability to slow things down.
 
He threw a ton of balls into the dirt 2-3 feet in front of his receivers. That screams to me "you're gripping the ball too tight". He tries to throw the ball through people and ends up getting the nose of the ball pointed down. And Mallett knows that. He's a 4th year NFL QB, of course he knows that. The fact that he was doing it so frequently implies that he was moving too fast, had the yips, or some combination of the two. It explains his lack of control on screen passes and his lack of accuracy. The guy either (A) can't slow the game down in his head or (B) can't catch up to the play on the field (are those two things the same? I dunno.)
 
Either way, it's a real cause for concern. Having trouble making reads or knowing what windows to pass into are things that can be worked out over time. But the NFL graveyard is littered with talented QB's who couldn't stop rushing plays or panicking in the pocket. I've seen the same results from Ryan Mallett for 3 years. I have no hope of him becoming an NFL ready quarterback.

I don't necessarily disagree with your observations (they seem to match what I saw).  Except that it's really difficult to judge anything during the preseason.  How many times did folks say similar things about Matt Cassel during his first 4 years in the league? Hell, Cassel played nearly the entire preseason in 2008, and few walked away saying "potential NFL starter for an 11-5 team".  
 
There's still too many moving parts in the 1st preseason game.  By the time he throws a pass the next 2 times around, the game will be at least half over.  And then there's Game 4, which is nothing more than a glorified walk through.  

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I don't necessarily disagree with your observations (they seem to match what I saw).  Except that it's really difficult to judge anything during the preseason.  How many times did folks say similar things about Matt Cassel during his first 4 years in the league? Hell, Cassel played nearly the entire preseason in 2008, and few walked away saying "potential NFL starter for an 11-5 team".  
 
There's still too many moving parts in the 1st preseason game.  By the time he throws a pass the next 2 times around, the game will be at least half over.  And then there's Game 4, which is nothing more than a glorified walk through.  

This isnt a dig at you, but Im pretty sick of people citing Cassel as a comparable case study. He had one decent year on a squad that went 16-0 in the previous season, and then turned back into a pumpkin.

His skill set was also entirely different. Mallett's arm blows away Cassel's noodle arm, but Cassel had the ability to be a game manager. Mallett is in his fourth season and struggles to even complete throws into the flats. I want to equate him to Bledsoe, but hes a poor mans Bledsoe.

I know you think this is a rush to judgement after 1 preseason game, but I said the same things about him throughout last years preseason, which is the problem. Hes shown no signs of improvement between the day he was drafted and last night.

 

[soxfan121]

Not to mention we all wanted Cassel cut during that preseason (along with Matt Gutierrez) because they were fucking terrible. Then, the Brady injury happened and Chris Simms - who probably would have taken Cassel's job as the backup - had his workout cancelled because Cassel had to become the starter. 
 
IOW, Cassel sucked in the preseason, too.

 

[Phragle]

PFF ReFo: Patriots @ Redskins, Preseason Week 1
 
PFF hates Chris Jones and wasted no time putting him down -3.0
 
Logan Ryan was bad too -3.8
 
Connolly and Cannon combined for a +3.8 
 
Not as good for Solder -2.3

 

[Stitch01]

I see the same things and you during preseason games, but practice has to be showing improvement. Otherwise he wouldn't still be here and wouldn't have been the number 2 for two years

 

[Stitch01]

PFF ReFo: Patriots @ Redskins, Preseason Week 1
 
PFF hates Chris Jones and wasted no time putting him down -3.0
 
Logan Ryan was bad too -3.8
 
Connolly and Cannon combined for a +3.8 
 
Not as good for Solder -2.3

PFF always hates Jones.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Erik Frenz ‏@ErikFrenz 1h
Sealver Siliga just showed up at CBS Scene with a cast on his left hand and his arm in a sling.
 

Looks like Siliga will be out for a while as it sounds like he broke his hand. We won't see him until late September at the earliest.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Looks like Siliga will be out for a while as it sounds like he broke his hand. We won't see him until late September at the earliest.

Late October, you mean. That's at least PUP.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Late October, you mean. That's at least PUP.

He can't be PUP'ed since he practiced.  It's either IR-DTR(which I don't think now that he will be on) or carrying him on the 53-man roster and declaring him inactive until he's ready.  Broken hands can be a 4-6 week injury.