2015 Dolphins: Fire the Lazor!

[jk333]

 
I wasn't clear so you're both half right.  I think a lot of the presumptive contributors are bad (guards, linebackers, non Landry wideouts, and defensive backs, I'm looking at you), I expect Grimes/Albert/Wake are closing in on the end, and I think a bunch of the starters who Dolphins fans seem to love (Miller or Vernon) are really pedestrian for NFL starters and are, at best, average NFL starters.  
 
The coaching could be better, sure, but I see .500 talent at best.

 
I agree that the talent is middle of the road. But in terms of the team, Pouncey is a good center, Albert and James are probably about average and guard is a position many teams coach up. The Dolphins are incapable of that and the overall line play is terrible. I wonder why. Sure they've had injuries, but so have the Patriots. 
 
Miller is Okay and in today's NFL that's fine. To me, the run game is a function of the play-calling and secondly the line play. Finally, on the offense - Cameron, Landry, Matthews are again adequate and young. With Parker and Stills as well, the offense has the players, it just isn't performing. What do posters think are the problems - is it Miller? The line? WRs? Is it Tannehill's execution and not the play calling?
 
On defense, the talent is aging or poor but the offense has been the bigger problem so far. The defense should cost them games down the road but only if the offense can play better.

 

[sodenj5]

 
I agree that the talent is middle of the road. But in terms of the team, Pouncey is a good center, Albert and James are probably about average and guard is a position many teams coach up. The Dolphins are incapable of that and the overall line play is terrible. I wonder why. Sure they've had injuries, but so have the Patriots. 
 
Miller is Okay and in today's NFL that's fine. To me, the run game is a function of the play-calling and secondly the line play. Finally, on the offense - Cameron, Landry, Matthews are again adequate and young. With Parker and Stills as well, the offense has the players, it just isn't performing. What do posters think are the problems - is it Miller? The line? WRs? Is it Tannehill's execution and not the play calling?
 
On defense, the talent is aging or poor but the offense has been the bigger problem so far. The defense should cost them games down the road but only if the offense can play better.

 
I think the offensive shortfalls starts with the offensive line. They are protecting terribly, and run blocking even worse. It's hard to execute any type of offense when Tannehill is getting pasted and Miller is averaging 2 yards/carry. I mean Kenny Stills was one of the most explosive wideouts in football for two straight years. He's been a ghost on this team. I can't really blame Tannehill's deep ball accuracy, because I only remember one or two deep shots thus far to Stills. Tannehill just doesn't have enough time in the pocket to let the deep routes develop. I just saw on PFF that Douglas and Thomas are the 2 worst ranked guards they have in the league presently. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/09/29/10-things-you-need-to-know-from-nfl-week-3/
 
The defense had question marks going in at LB and CB, and then Delmas got hurt, further complicating things. The thought process was that Suh and the D-Line would be disruptive enough where it would allow the linebackers to have cleaner opportunities to make tackles. Pretty much none of that has gone right thus far. OV was expected to take a big step up this year with Suh and Wake drawing most of the attention and him getting a lot of 1 on 1's. He has the tools and talent to make an impact, but it hasn't translated into results this year. Not sure where they can go in terms of jump starting the pass rush, but for a team who's strength was supposed to be their talented and deep D-Line, they've gotten off to probably the worst start imaginable.

 

[pdaj]

Will the Dolphins leave Philbin in London after this Sunday? ;-)

 

[sodenj5]

One thing that has steadily been ramping up is DeVante Parker's role in the offense. He's said he's 100%, it's just a matter of him making up ground from losing those reps in training camp. I think after the bye week, he'll be moving into a more featured role.
 
Out of all the things that have gone wrong, Rishard Matthews has been a major bright spot for the team, now officially moving up the depth chart and passing Stills as a starter. He's always been talented, but lacked the consistency to see major snaps. He seems to be putting it together this year, and the results are showing on the field.

 

[Clears Cleaver]

Brian billick on M@M this am called out Wake and Vernon, no Suh as the problem. Watch the games over and focus on those two. Wake is toast, honestly, unless he's hurt he's done and Vernon is so undisciplined and never holds the edge. Teams run right at both of those two guys and neither can get off a block ever
 
creates a lot of cap space for next year though 
 
edit: maybe dolphins can trade Wake to a team needing a pass rush specialist ala what Bears did with Allen. I'd take a fifth for Wake right now. No way Vernon is coming back 

 

[Shelterdog]

Brian billick on M@M this am called out Wake and Vernon, no Suh as the problem. Watch the games over and focus on those two. Wake is toast, honestly, unless he's hurt he's done and Vernon is so undisciplined and never holds the edge. Teams run right at both of those two guys and neither can get off a block ever
 
creates a lot of cap space for next year though 
 
edit: maybe dolphins can trade Wake to a team needing a pass rush specialist ala what Bears did with Allen. I'd take a fifth for Wake right now. No way Vernon is coming back 

 
I've mentioned it a couple of times but assuming that Wake and Grimes were going to be great players this year took a big leap of faith.  The cliche is NFL players don't go downhill, they fall of a cliff, and the only way the defense was going to be as good as some hoped is if those two 32/33 year old players had exceptional seasons.  Unfortunately for you guy they both fell off the cliff at about the same time.  

 

[sodenj5]

 
I've mentioned it a couple of times but assuming that Wake and Grimes were going to be great players this year took a big leap of faith.  The cliche is NFL players don't go downhill, they fall of a cliff, and the only way the defense was going to be as good as some hoped is if those two 32/33 year old players had exceptional seasons.  Unfortunately for you guy they both fell off the cliff at about the same time.  

 
I'm not sure I would say that Grimes has fallen off a cliff. Wake has be declining for the last 2 or so years. I was hoping they could get another good year out of him with some of the focus now shifted towards Suh. OV has been a complete disappointment. He's entering a walk year, and with Wake and Suh opposite him, he should be winning 1 on 1's and he flat out isn't. Suh is taking a lot of flack, but he's the person I'm least worried about.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

Is it possible Grimes ISN'T falling off a cliff, but is instead just distracted by the seam-busting pride he's been feeling lately for his family?

 

[sodenj5]

Is it possible Grimes ISN'T falling off a cliff, but is instead just distracted by the seam-busting pride he's been feeling lately for his family?

 
Very possible. Likely, even.

 

[mcaqua]

I found this interesting:

Joe Philbin says he will stick with struggling Jamil Douglas at right guard. So why can’t Billy Turner get on the field? Offensive line coach John Benton wants his linemen to block with the technique he teaches, and Turner hasn’t done it to Benton’s liking.
“[The issue] wasn’t my production,” Turner said. “Every coach wants things done with their technique. It’s much different than what I did in college, which was straight up power.”

 
Is this sort of thing common practice?  How does this type of logic compare to depth-chart related issues in the NFLs other 31 cities?  On the surface, it seems strange to continue with something that clearly is not working - but I don't have another situation to use as a point of reference.
 
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sports-buzz/2015/09/from-wade-contract-to-dragic-pregnancy-to-bosh-illness-heat-reaffirms-family-commitment-dolphins-can-1.html

 

[sodenj5]

I found this interesting:
 
 
 
Is this sort of thing common practice?  How does this type of logic compare to depth-chart related issues in the NFLs other 31 cities?  On the surface, it seems strange to continue with something that clearly is not working - but I don't have another situation to use as a point of reference.
 
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sports-buzz/2015/09/from-wade-contract-to-dragic-pregnancy-to-bosh-illness-heat-reaffirms-family-commitment-dolphins-can-1.html

 
It's nice that Turner doesn't think he sucks, but he does. He's had a full year and a full offseason to get prepped to be the starting guard. He's received coaching and instruction, and the results on the field were still pretty bad. He has the physical tools to be a good guard, but if you can't adjust to what the coaching staff wants you to do in a year+, then you aren't ready to play. I remember a bunch of times Philbin and Lazor brought up the fact that Douglas was doing everything exactly the way they asked, he was watching extra film and studying hard to improve. Seems like a shot directly aimed in Turner's direction. I'm not saying Douglas has been great, because he's been bad. At least he is doing the requisite work to try and improve and do what the coaching staff wants. Turner is bad and doesn't seem to be able to make the necessary adjustments to get better in this zone blocking scheme.
 
That article also brings up the Jordan Phillips issue. The second rounder is the only player on the team with a sack, but he was inactive. Chris McCain has been inactive for a game or two this season as well. I understand with a guy like Phillips, who had issues with motivation in college, you might need to stay on him a bit, but when you're getting smashed in the run game, it would seem to behoove you to have as many 300 pounders at DT as possible. Philbin has cited it being a practice performance issue with both McCain and Phillips. That they need to show more and earn their spot on the active roster. Maybe it will pay off, and Phillips and McCain will bring their A game more consistently, or maybe it will backfire and teammates will see talented young players wearing shorts and t shirts on game day because they weren't killing it in practice.

 

[Clears Cleaver]

turner was a bad pick for a zone blocking scheme. period. but he got destroyed in preseason and Suh regularly put him on his arse, so not so sure where the "power" comes from.
 
Alas, more players complaining about the coaching
 
I thought Grimes has played OK. the other CB spot has been picked on

 

[mcaqua]

 
It's nice that Turner doesn't think he sucks, but he does. He's had a full year and a full offseason to get prepped to be the starting guard. He's received coaching and instruction, and the results on the field were still pretty bad. He has the physical tools to be a good guard, but if you can't adjust to what the coaching staff wants you to do in a year+, then you aren't ready to play. I remember a bunch of times Philbin and Lazor brought up the fact that Douglas was doing everything exactly the way they asked, he was watching extra film and studying hard to improve. Seems like a shot directly aimed in Turner's direction. I'm not saying Douglas has been great, because he's been bad. At least he is doing the requisite work to try and improve and do what the coaching staff wants. Turner is bad and doesn't seem to be able to make the necessary adjustments to get better in this zone blocking scheme.

 
Sure, but I'm questioning Philbin's (and his staff) inflexibility on a macro-level.  Is his stubbornness on these depth-chart related issues a detriment to the on-field product?  For a team that can't get after the passer on defense, where has Chris McCain been?  I believe he was even inactive in the opener.  Jordan Phillips, owner of our only sack to date, inactive last Sunday.  Kenny Stills has been a ghost, after becoming one of the most efficient WRs in the entire league during his stint in New Orleans.
 
Hell, you could even say the same thing about Rishard Matthews' career in Miami prior to this season.  This was a guy who survived three personnel regimes, yet never found the field because Philbin disliked him for whatever reason.  Suddenly this season he's the most productive WR on the team.

 

[Shelterdog]

turner was a bad pick for a zone blocking scheme. period. but he got destroyed in preseason and Suh regularly put him on his arse, so not so sure where the "power" comes from.
 
Alas, more players complaining about the coaching
 
I thought Grimes has played OK. the other CB spot has been picked on

 
Isn't the power just a reference to the scheme  rather than to him actually having power?
 
It's not abnormal at all for a physically limited player who plays with better technique to beat out a bigger/faster/stronger player. A lot of former players will tell you that often times good technique allows you to beat a more physically talented player.

 

[sodenj5]

Hell, you could even say the same thing about Rishard Matthews' career in Miami prior to this season.  This was a guy who survived three personnel regimes, yet never found the field because Philbin disliked him for whatever reason.  Suddenly this season he's the most productive WR on the team.

 
It's been said pretty consistently that Matthews has always been talented but was inconsistent, which has kept him from featuring in a larger role. The Stills issue, which I addressed previously, is a larger function about the offensive line sucking. It's hard to attack deep when your line is getting you smashed even on the short routes. I don't think there's a hidden agenda, but I do think this coaching staff is NOT maximizing the talent on the roster.

 

[mcaqua]

https://twitter.com/thedeependmiami/status/649232588268306432

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Really has command of his team there.

 

[sodenj5]

Really has command of his team there.

This looks like it's at the end of the game where they failed to get into the end zone again after 4 straight passes. I would say that's more of a cumulative effect of the beating the Bills handed out than the team "quitting on their coach," but then again, that doesn't generate clicks.

 

[sodenj5]

Albert officially listed as doubtful for Sunday. I would sit him if he's anything less than 100% to give him the extended time off to heal during the bye. This is obviously an important game, but having Albert back at close to 100% in two weeks outweighs having him try and push it and be 75% all season and in and out of the lineup. I was in favor of sitting him through the first 4 weeks anyways, but I didn't envision them losing to the Jags and Bills, so what do I know?

 

[Clears Cleaver]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000547697/article/dolphins-coaching-staff-could-see-changes-if-team-loses-to-jets?campaign=Twitter_atn

Lol. Shocker. Players quitting on these guys. They are going to lose like 24-3 this week.

 

[Shelterdog]

This looks like it's at the end of the game where they failed to get into the end zone again after 4 straight passes. I would say that's more of a cumulative effect of the beating the Bills handed out than the team "quitting on their coach," but then again, that doesn't generate clicks.

 
Keep telling yourself that. 

 

[Clears Cleaver]

 
Isn't the power just a reference to the scheme  rather than to him actually having power?
 
It's not abnormal at all for a physically limited player who plays with better technique to beat out a bigger/faster/stronger player. A lot of former players will tell you that often times good technique allows you to beat a more physically talented player.

 
yes, I suppose. the zone scheme relies on more athletic players who might be smaller and quicker than the average linemen in the NFL today. more pulling, more getting to second level on running plays, etc. I think maybe he was referring to blocking straight ahead man on man. Either way, he sucks. 

 

[loshjott]

Well, that was certainly the wrong thread...

 

[Shelterdog]

And the knives are out--there is a report that Coyle is out if the Fins lose today, and there are reports that there was a contentious meeting between Coyle and the players last week.   I'm guessing this leak is Tannenbaum's work.  
 
Coyle coached a few top ten defenses by points allowed.  I really don't think that he's the problem.
 
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000548336/article/dolphins-loss-could-lead-to-change-at-defensive-coordinator

 

[rymflaherty]

This locker room sounds like an absolute nightmare. There's another article up on NFL.com, this one dealing specifically with Coyle and the potential that he is replaced with a bad outing today.
 
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000548336/article/dolphins-loss-could-lead-to-change-at-defensive-coordinator
 
Reading that doesn't necassarily instill hope, if anything it made me more frustrated.  If the team comes out and plays great today it sounds like it will be more in spite of the staff rather than some sort of vindication of Coyle.  It sounds like a borderline mutiny, and if that's a media creation, the metrics/stats all indicate a team that has gotten worse over his tenure, but he's still here and "could" lose his job. Seems like such a mess.
 
We'll see shortly what kind of resolve these players have.
(edit- guess I spent too long with my conjecture, that link wasn't posted already when I started a reply. Ha!)

 

[mcaqua]

Coyle coached a few top ten defenses by points allowed.  I really don't think that he's the problem.
 
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000548336/article/dolphins-loss-could-lead-to-change-at-defensive-coordinator

He might not be the only problem - in fact it's doubtful - but that unit has gotten progressively worse every year under his tutelage. Doesn't that ultimately fall at his feet?

He certainly hasn't been a solution.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

So...this team is pathetic.

 

[Clears Cleaver]

given what Chip Kelly has done in Philly and the way Miami's play calling and offense has gone, does anyone want Lazor calling plays? or designing an offense around his theories? They cannot get a third and one if life depended on it, they cannot pass block and Tannehill still cannot pick up blitzes.
 
they traded a third round pick for a fifth WR and a first round pick on a WR who cannot understand the route tree.
they have no leadership or toughness
their DEs are possibly the worst in the league yet are making top $$
their $30M DT has done nothing all year and looks like he's quitting on the season

 

[sodenj5]

given what Chip Kelly has done in Philly and the way Miami's play calling and offense has gone, does anyone want Lazor calling plays? or designing an offense around his theories? They cannot get a third and one if life depended on it, they cannot pass block and Tannehill still cannot pick up blitzes.
 
they traded a third round pick for a fifth WR and a first round pick on a WR who cannot understand the route tree.
they have no leadership or toughness
their DEs are possibly the worst in the league yet are making top $$
their $30M DT has done nothing all year and looks like he's quitting on the season

The thing is, the offense is built to be finesse. They don't have a fullback. Their TE is a big WR. They run a ZBS with smaller lineman. Their lead guy is a speed back. They're built to spread the field and air it out. They will always struggle to pick up a third and short on the ground.

 

[Clears Cleaver]

The thing is, the offense is built to be finesse. They don't have a fullback. Their TE is a big WR. They run a ZBS with smaller lineman. Their lead guy is a speed back. They're built to spread the field and air it out. They will always struggle to pick up a third and short on the ground.

 
yes. you don't think that is completely asinine? The entire scheme is stupid. 

 

[dynomite]

So what are the odds that Philbin is the coach after the bye week? Do people think they'll make a move?

 

[Clears Cleaver]

So what are the odds that Philbin is the coach after the bye week? Do people think they'll make a move?

 
20% odds he's the still the head coach. coyle will definitely be fired (90%). Lazor 25% chance he's fired. Dickey 10% chance he's fired as GM. they need to trade Wake.

 

[sodenj5]

I think Philbin is gone because they've looked really bad in both sides of the ball. A lot of blame to go around, but this team had looked flat for four straight weeks. They are not playing to their potential or expectations in any aspect. I would say that Landry, Jenkins, Jones, and maybe Pouncey are the only players on the team playing to their potential.

 

[sodenj5]

Let's begin the wild speculation. If Philbin is canned, who is his replacement? I think Lazor is the leading candidate to finish this year. Ross loves big names. Does he write a blank check to Gruden? Cowher seems like he has no interest in coaching anymore. Not even sure who else well regarded candidates would be at this point.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Let's begin the wild speculation. If Philbin is canned, who is his replacement? I think Lazor is the leading candidate to finish this year. Ross loves big names. Does he write a blank check to Gruden? Cowher seems like he has no interest in coaching anymore. Not even sure who else well regarded candidates would be at this point.

 
It has to be Lazor. No one anywhere near decent would take this job mid-season. Time to see if Lazor can keep the ship running tight, and evaluate after the season. 
 
Miami won't concede with all the $$$ invested though, so that rules out a Wake trade IMO. I think I'd be more worried about Dickey trying to salvage the season and trade valuable picks for players who won't be in Miami next year or two. 

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Hmmm. Apparently Philbin met with Ross after the game and is still not fired, according to the posters here:
 
http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?87296-Philbin-met-with-Ross-after-game

 

[Clears Cleaver]

Labor has a better chance of being fired as he does being coach. he's gonna be gone after the season. The only question today is will if be Philbin, Coyle, Philbin and coyle or all three with Lazor
 
the offensive scheme and play calling is as bad as the defense

 

[sodenj5]

Labor has a better chance of being fired as he does being coach. he's gonna be gone after the season. The only question today is will if be Philbin, Coyle, Philbin and coyle or all three with Lazor
 
the offensive scheme and play calling is as bad as the defense

 
When the offensive line has been as porous as it's been, I'm hesitant to rush to any snap judgements about the playcalling. I think that the playcalling has not been great, but they've struggled to run block and protect in the passing game. That's why you see all of their routes as short crossing patterns and screens on third and long. The line can't hold their blocks for longer than three seconds, so it completely handcuffs the offensive playcalling. Lazor can dial up longer pass plays all day long if he wants Tannehill to take a sack every third down.
 
I think they need to commit more to the running game. Lazor is too quick to abandon it, but Miami's defense isn't helping matters when they're getting outscored by 700 points in the first quarter so far. This team falls into holes too quickly because the offense is coming out flat, the defense is giving up points, and then they're forced to start playing catch-up way too early.
 
They need to improve dramatically in every phase of the game in the next two weeks.

 

[DJnVa]

Per Florio, Philbin finds out today if he's still employed.

 

[sodenj5]

Per Florio, Philbin finds out today if he's still employed.

 
He honestly needs to be gone. Ross is incredibly loyal, maybe to a fault, but this team needs a change of direction. They have looked bad for four straight weeks on both sides of the ball. Philbin has the final say on his coaching staff and he came out yesterday and said Coyle is his guy. That may ultimately decide his fate. Ross might give him an ultimatum in order to save his job, or he may decide he has seen enough and makes the change regardless.

 

[Shelterdog]

Suh showed up to his full pad practice in sneakers, apparently to show his displeasure with Coyle's scheme.
 
Don't worry, you can cut him in 2018 and only take a 10.2 million cap hit. 
 
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/10/05/suhs-shoe-choice-at-practice-seen-by-teammates-as-a-message/

 

[Clears Cleaver]

I trust Suh more than Coyle at this point, but the players stink, too

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Showed up in sneakers? Jesus Christ. Talk about unprofessional.

 

[fiskful of dollars]

Why isn't Ricky Jerret seeing any PT? 

 

[mcaqua]

 
He honestly needs to be gone. Ross is incredibly loyal, maybe to a fault, but this team needs a change of direction. They have looked bad for four straight weeks on both sides of the ball. Philbin has the final say on his coaching staff and he came out yesterday and said Coyle is his guy. That may ultimately decide his fate. Ross might give him an ultimatum in order to save his job, or he may decide he has seen enough and makes the change regardless.

 
I just feel bad for Philbin at this point.  Its clear he's in way over his head.
 
Ross needs to do the humane thing here, though I still have my doubts he'll actually do it.

 

[Shelterdog]

I trust Suh more than Coyle at this point, but the players stink, too

 
Something somewhere isn't right if Suh thinks he should be predominantly one gapping and Coyle wants him two gapping--I'm not sure if they sold Suh a bill of goods about his role on the team or if Suh just didn't ask because, well, dollar dollar bill y'all, but players shouldn't be shocked by the schemes they're moving into in free agency. 

 

[Corsi]

Schefter:
 

As of last night, the Dolphins were preparing to fire head coach Joe Philbin, per league sources. Dolphins owner Stephen Ross always could change his mind, but the organization was preparing to make a move as soon as today, per sources. Should Ross follow through with his plan, Dolphins tight ends coach Dan Campbell would be the leading candidate to become the interim head coach and replace Philbin.
 

 

[Silverdude2167]

So what are peoples thoughts on Dan Campbell?

 

[jsinger121]

So what are peoples thoughts on Dan Campbell?

 
I'm sure the players are screaming to run through a wall for that guy. Seriously what a mess in South Florida. Championships aren't won in March.

 

[mcaqua]

https://twitter.com/davehydesports/status/651059250047942656