2022-2023 General Celtics thread

TripleOT

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Tatum is not unique in struggling his first time in the Finals. KD led his team to four straight Finals losses his first time there, his fifth in the league. He only won in the Finals when he teamed up with the HoFer laden Warriors. LeBron got swept in his first Finals (dragging a horrible team there), and lost his second time there, losing three straight games after being up 2-1, even though he teamed up with two other HoFer.

Embiid never got out of the second round, and Jokic never got to the Finals. I see JT on a par with them when taking into account playoff achievements
 

Auger34

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Brunson looks like a completely different player than he did near the end of his tenure in Dallas. The Knicks did a great job with his contract.
I’d argue he looks like the player he was without Luka completely sucking up all of the oxygen on offense.

Good for him for getting more money and going to a place where he could prove himself and get out of the Doncic shadow
 

HomeRunBaker

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I’d argue he looks like the player he was without Luka completely sucking up all of the oxygen on offense.

Good for him for getting more money and going to a place where he could prove himself and get out of the Doncic shadow
I was just about to post the same thought. This WAS Jalen in Dallas last year when he had the ball. He’s another example of how stats lie without context…..and he’s standing in the weak side corner while Doncic is backing his man into the paint.
 

lovegtm

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Thanks. I had to work today and missed the game. At some point I'll watch the whole thing, but this at least will give me a sense of what went on.
Summary: the Celtics got whatever they wanted in the first half, and then ran prevent offense for literally the entire 2nd half.

The Hawks made a run, because of said prevent offense, so the Celtics started trying again for 2 minutes and put the game away. This quality gap between these two teams is massive, and it's even worse because Atlanta owes two unprotecteds and a swap going forward.
 

Koufax

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Question: Should Jaylen Brown take the rest of the series off to let his hand truly heal? It split open yesterday during the game. That tells me that there is a risk of that being a recurring problem, with the possibility of infection. Yesterday's game showed such a disparity in talent and execution that I think it is safe to say that the Celtics don't need JB in this series, although they surely will need him later.
 

tims4wins

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First post since January!
Question: Should Jaylen Brown take the rest of the series off to let his hand truly heal? It split open yesterday during the game. That tells me that there is a risk of that being a recurring problem, with the possibility of infection. Yesterday's game showed such a disparity in talent and execution that I think it is safe to say that the Celtics don't need JB in this series, although they surely will need him later.
Had the same thought.
 

m0ckduck

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Had the same thought.
Me too— but I think it's one W too early for that. Yesterday, when the Hawks were making their quasi-run in the second half, JB was the one I trusted to get baskets to staunch the flow. Tatum seemed to go into a tentative zone after he failed to convert some finishes close to the basket and didn't get the whistle.

Get up 2-0 and then weigh the options. Plus, there's a lot days off between these early games.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Question: Should Jaylen Brown take the rest of the series off to let his hand truly heal? It split open yesterday during the game. That tells me that there is a risk of that being a recurring problem, with the possibility of infection. Yesterday's game showed such a disparity in talent and execution that I think it is safe to say that the Celtics don't need JB in this series, although they surely will need him later.
Me too— but I think it's one W too early for that. Yesterday, when the Hawks were making their quasi-run in the second half, JB was the one I trusted to get baskets to staunch the flow. Tatum seemed to go into a tentative zone after he failed to convert some finishes close to the basket and didn't get the whistle.

Get up 2-0 and then weigh the options. Plus, there's a lot days off between these early games.
I never believed that timeline for a hand cut on his shooting hand. Didn’t make sense. If you are going to sit him I’d do it at home in G2 where others are more likely to step up successfully as we will need him more in the two in Atlanta. The last thing we want to do is make this a 3-game series.
 

tims4wins

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I never believed that timeline for a hand cut on his shooting hand. Didn’t make sense. If you are going to sit him I’d do it at home in G2 where others are more likely to step up successfully as we will need him more in the two in Atlanta. The last thing we want to do is make this a 3-game series.
This makes sense, it would give him 5 full days off (today through Thursday) and you can re-evaluate come Friday's game 3.
 

the moops

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The Hawks made a run, because of said prevent offense, so the Celtics started trying again for 2 minutes and put the game away. This quality gap between these two teams is massive, and it's even worse because Atlanta owes two unprotecteds and a swap going forward.
Would we trade Derrick White straight up for Dejounte? It's gotta be a debate right?

Crazy considering BOS gave up last year's 25th pick and a swap that isn't going to happen for him and ATL gave up two future unprotected firsts and a swap
 

lovegtm

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Would we trade Derrick White straight up for Dejounte? It's gotta be a debate right?

Crazy considering BOS gave up last year's 25th pick and a swap that isn't going to happen for him and ATL gave up two future unprotected firsts and a swap
Even regardless of the protections, Atlanta's picks are likely to be a lot higher than 25. They'll probably end up worth about 4-6 #25 picks, in terms of what the cost to move up is.

White has become a better defender than Murray imo, which is pretty surprising (partly due to team). Offensively, it's all about the 3. If White really is a 38% guy on decent volume, he's probably better, otherwise it's Murray.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Would we trade Derrick White straight up for Dejounte? It's gotta be a debate right?

Crazy considering BOS gave up last year's 25th pick and a swap that isn't going to happen for him and ATL gave up two future unprotected firsts and a swap
Well fit counts too and White is a better fit IMO for BOS than Murray as he has shown he can play different roles. Not sure if Murray could do the same.

One other interesting thing (maybe only to me) is that it does show the perils of NBA team buildling. SAS hit two basically HRs drafting Murray and White at 29 - borderline all-stars - and signed them to reasonable contracts and then realized that they had to tear it down or be stuck in the NBA hamster wheel of mediocrity.
 

lovegtm

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Well fit counts too and White is a better fit IMO for BOS than Murray as he has shown he can play different roles. Not sure if Murray could do the same.

One other interesting thing (maybe only to me) is that it does show the perils of NBA team buildling. SAS hit two basically HRs drafting Murray and White at 29 - borderline all-stars - and signed them to reasonable contracts and then realized that they had to tear it down or be stuck in the NBA hamster wheel of mediocrity.
Not to contradict your point, but rather to expand on it:

A big issue for SA is that they waited too long to extend the Pop era, rather than tearing things down sooner. So, when they hit on those two borderline all-stars, they didn't have much around them, since they hadn't drafted high for a long time.

The Celtics hit very hard on TL, but imagine if it was just him and Jaylen, or just TL and prime Smart. There wouldn't be much choice but to tear it down then, either.

The Celtics picked #3 twice and hit on both, which made TL and Smart wayyy more valuable than they would have been otherwise. It also gave the ability to turn other late 1sts into elite roleplayers in White, Brogdon, and Horford.

NBA team-building is hard, but it always starts with acquiring 1-2 really, really good players. SA didn't work intentionally enough to make that happen, and so they didn't get as much value from late draft success.
 

the moops

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1997 - San Antonio had the 1st pick and got Duncan.

Since then, they have only picked in the top 10 of the draft once, and that was last year with Jeremy Sochan at # 9
 

lovegtm

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1997 - San Antonio had the 1st pick and got Duncan.

Since then, they have only picked in the top 10 of the draft once, and that was last year with Jeremy Sochan at # 9
Yup, Duncan was so good that hitting on Parker and Ginobli late-draft then led to titles.

If they hadn't had Duncan, they'd have been the Hawks.
 

Reverend

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Question: Should Jaylen Brown take the rest of the series off to let his hand truly heal? It split open yesterday during the game. That tells me that there is a risk of that being a recurring problem, with the possibility of infection. Yesterday's game showed such a disparity in talent and execution that I think it is safe to say that the Celtics don't need JB in this series, although they surely will need him later.
Me too— but I think it's one W too early for that. Yesterday, when the Hawks were making their quasi-run in the second half, JB was the one I trusted to get baskets to staunch the flow. Tatum seemed to go into a tentative zone after he failed to convert some finishes close to the basket and didn't get the whistle.

Get up 2-0 and then weigh the options. Plus, there's a lot days off between these early games.
I never believed that timeline for a hand cut on his shooting hand. Didn’t make sense. If you are going to sit him I’d do it at home in G2 where others are more likely to step up successfully as we will need him more in the two in Atlanta. The last thing we want to do is make this a 3-game series.
If they can’t beat Atlanta without Jaylen for a game or two, then they ain’t winning the whole thing. Let the hand heal.
 

benhogan

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I'd be shocked if Brown sat out any games over this cut. CJM could have easily cut back his minutes after halftime, and they didn't.

Another 3-days to heal and more medical-grade crazy glue to close if necessary
 

Smokey Joe

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Sadly the wound did not heal from primary intention (7-10 days post suturing), it will have to heal via secondary intention (2-4 weeks of leaving it alone). I heard somewhere that it is in the webbed area between the fingers which is a bitch to heal. Without looking at it, I can’t tell if it’s a minor annoyance that he can play through or something that if he doesn’t immobilize it for a couple weeks, he will end up with a big gap between his fingers that will need off season surgery to close.
A couple extra days will probably not be helpful.
 

Jimbodandy

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Would we trade Derrick White straight up for Dejounte? It's gotta be a debate right?

Crazy considering BOS gave up last year's 25th pick and a swap that isn't going to happen for him and ATL gave up two future unprotected firsts and a swap
I don't think that it's much of a debate. For any contending team, White is so much more useful. If it were a rebuilding team, maybe the argument for Murray makes sense. Maybe.
 

Smokey Joe

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I'd be shocked if Brown sat out any games over this cut. CJM could have easily cut back his minutes after halftime, and they didn't.

Another 3-days to heal and more medical-grade crazy glue to close if necessary
Typically the adhesives aren’t used much on the hand because all the loose flexible skin and hypermobility tend to make it crack and flake off, but I could see using it in this case just to keep it from getting worse. Or you could just end up gluing your fingers together.
 

NoXInNixon

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Or sweep ATL and let it heal after that series and before the next
Philly is likely to also win in 4 or 5 games, so even if the Celtics finish off the Hawks in 4 or 5, there probably won't be a huge gap before the start of the second round.
 

the moops

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Philly is likely to also win in 4 or 5 games, so even if the Celtics finish off the Hawks in 4 or 5, there probably won't be a huge gap before the start of the second round.
Good point. If BOS sweeps, their last game against the Hawks is APR 23rd. Earliest BOS/PHI series could start in APR 29, and probably would start the 29th or 30th even if PHI goes to 5 games
 

benhogan

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Would we trade Derrick White straight up for Dejounte? It's gotta be a debate right?

Crazy considering BOS gave up last year's 25th pick and a swap that isn't going to happen for him and ATL gave up two future unprotected firsts and a swap
No. If White is a legit 38% from 3 he's a better player for Boston.

1. I believe ATL gave up 3 first-round picks >>> ATL 2025 + ATL 2027 + Charlotte's 2023 protected 1st + a 2026 pick swap
2. Better contract. White 3yrs@$54MM vs Murray 2yrs@$34MM (plus Boston got White a half season earlier)
3. Murray and White both played ~6000 minutes while in SA with pretty much the same teammates, system, both starters, etc
White was consistently better +/- & On-Off

The Derrick White trade was a flat-out heist.
 
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ManicCompression

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The Derrick White trade was a flat-out heist.
It's kind of a paradox, isn't it?

- Dejounte Murray is a better player for a bad team. He's good with the ball in his hands and can soak up a lot of usage and make your 18 win team win 25 instead (just throwing out pretend numbers). He's difficult, however, to fit around because he's not a super reliable shooter and needs the ball to have an impact.
- Derrick White is a waste on a bad team because he's not a high usage player. He's much better in a complementary role and does a lot of little things well. He probably won't do much for your bad team, but he raises the ceiling of your good team by not having weaknesses and slotting in seamlessly up and down the rotation.

Because Dejounte racks up stats on the bad team due to his role, he goes for more in a trade to a "contending" team even though he's less impactful for a team already has a high-usage player. White doesn't have the amazing stats and goes for way less in a trade, even though he impacts winning in multiple ways and is more of a "16-game" player.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's kind of a paradox, isn't it?

- Dejounte Murray is a better player for a bad team. He's good with the ball in his hands and can soak up a lot of usage and make your 18 win team win 25 instead (just throwing out pretend numbers). He's difficult, however, to fit around because he's not a super reliable shooter and needs the ball to have an impact.
- Derrick White is a waste on a bad team because he's not a high usage player. He's much better in a complementary role and does a lot of little things well. He probably won't do much for your bad team, but he raises the ceiling of your good team by not having weaknesses and slotting in seamlessly up and down the rotation.

Because Dejounte racks up stats on the bad team due to his role, he goes for more in a trade to a "contending" team even though he's less impactful for a team already has a high-usage player. White doesn't have the amazing stats and goes for way less in a trade, even though he impacts winning in multiple ways and is more of a "16-game" player.
Very well said. You can replace Murray and White with a lot of other players in this league too.
 

benhogan

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It's kind of a paradox, isn't it?

- Dejounte Murray is a better player for a bad team. He's good with the ball in his hands and can soak up a lot of usage and make your 18 win team win 25 instead (just throwing out pretend numbers). He's difficult, however, to fit around because he's not a super reliable shooter and needs the ball to have an impact.
- Derrick White is a waste on a bad team because he's not a high usage player. He's much better in a complementary role and does a lot of little things well. He probably won't do much for your bad team, but he raises the ceiling of your good team by not having weaknesses and slotting in seamlessly up and down the rotation.

Because Dejounte racks up stats on the bad team due to his role, he goes for more in a trade to a "contending" team even though he's less impactful for a team already has a high-usage player. White doesn't have the amazing stats and goes for way less in a trade, even though he impacts winning in multiple ways and is more of a "16-game" player.
It's funny I always thought Murray was the superior player. He isn't. If he is one of your top offensive threats you're headed for mediocrity

After watching DW play 83 games this year, now I understand why he is an adv metric star. Constantly pushes the pace, gets back on D, & extremely high-level decision-making with the ball in his hands.
 

Kliq

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The confidence White has in the playoffs so far compared to last year is staggering. Him plus the Brogdan addition, just a totally different squad on offense.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Surely this has been posted somewhere in this forum but I can't find any mention of it.

The Bus One Boys, a big part of this team's culture:
https://theathletic.com/4407072/2023/04/18/celtics-bus-one-players-fun

Griffin gets his pregame routine in later than most of his teammates. He can pull up at his convenience.
So why was he standing outside the team hotel hours early for the game, stepping onto the first bus to the arena? Well, he had to uphold his duties as the de facto president of the Bus One Boys, an exclusive group of players tied together by an indelible bond.
“Yeah, that’s pretty much the only rule: Be on bus one,” Griffin told The Athletic. “If you don’t do that, your membership can be put up at the next fake meeting that never happens.”

Bus One is a particular crew on each team across the NBA, typically comprising of players at the end of the bench whose pregame workout timeslots tend to be the earliest. As the Celtics face the Atlanta Hawks in the first round of the playoffs this week, it’s likely you won’t see many of them play meaningful minutes. But they are still playing a role and maintaining the foundation of the positive locker room culture that will be tested throughout the postseason.

The Bus One Boys, as they have named themselves, consists of Griffin, Luke Kornet, Sam Hauser, Payton Pritchard, as well as Justin Jackson and Noah Vonleh before they were traded earlier this season.
Guest appearances often include two-way players Mfiondu Kabengele and JD Davison, deadline acquisition Mike Muscala and sometimes even Jaylen Brown when he’s getting in some early work. To gain official membership in the group, a player has to follow one simple rule.
“We’ll allow guys in perfectly fine and they’re always welcome. But if you violate the Bus One code — which is basically just not being on (the bus) — that’s really it,” Kornet said. “The only pillar is participation and attendance.”
Dedication was the word that kept coming up when talking to the Bus One Boys. It’s a half-joke, a recognition that while everything is fun, it does mean something for them to all be together.
“Nobody was missing the bus ever, and sometimes the best part of our days was just getting on the bus and talking on the way there,” Griffin said. “Especially when you stay at home, you don’t want to feel like you’re missing anything. You don’t want to be a distraction that way. So I opted into that.”
Wait, from the Bus One Boys or the actual team?
“From the Bus One Boys,” he said. “Well… for both.”
These guys sound like they are having a really great time together.

But what makes the Bus One Boys, besides, you know, being on the bus? It features everything from existential discussions to sarcastic debates over innocuous curiosities.
“Throughout the year, we crack jokes, we quote movies, we have a very dry sense of humor,” Hauser said. “It’s just fun and good energy before you get to the arena, where you have to lock in.”
Kornet came up with a theme song based on "Uptown Girl".

According to Hauser, they were singing “Uptown Girl” on Bus One when inspiration hit Kornet. He will often quietly sing to himself in the locker room, but this time he was putting on a show.
After a rousing response from his audience, he decided to start writing a full theme song.
“He’s got a beautiful voice. We heard him when he did it on the bus and he’s been tweaking it, so I’ve heard enough to know it’s heavenly,” Griffin said. “One bus ride he was particularly quiet and then he had some lyrics, so maybe that’s when he wrote it.”
Kornet is the imaginative hub of the Bus One Boys, essentially an English professor moonlighting as an NBA player. From his Kornet Kontests to somehow pulling off using the word “phlegmatic” on media day, there is hardly anything about Kornet that seems conventional in the NBA.
It was a rewarding moment in the final stages of the season, knowing this might be one of the last times they’ll all play together.
“I feel like we have a group that just enjoys each other and enjoys the time that we have and we try to make the best of it,” said Kornet. “I think it just comes from there and it’s just a way for us to keep it fun for everyone.”
 
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BlackJack

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Listen to all of us…..we are trying to negotiate a recovery timeline with Jaylen’s wound. We are all losing our minds.
Ok, final offer: A pedicure, hand massage, and David Duchovny’s hyperbaric chamber from Zoolander, but you’ve got to be healed by the start of round two!
 

Eddie Jurak

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The confidence White has in the playoffs so far compared to last year is staggering. Him plus the Brogdan addition, just a totally different squad on offense.
I'm enjoying the thought of Trae Young dreaming about White blocking his shot repeatedly.
 

lovegtm

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Mitchell, Garland, Brunson, Jrue, VanVleet, Harden, Halliburton

Those are his peers. Where he slots in there is debatable.
Yup, obviously some of those guys are much better creators, which has a ton of value.

Jrue is one of his best comps, and I didn't realize how awful he's shot it in the postseason. White would need to add more strength to really get to Jrue's defensive level, but they are more similar than people think, and the gap is smaller than people think.
 

Auger34

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Mitchell, Garland, Brunson, Jrue, VanVleet, Harden, Halliburton

Those are his peers. Where he slots in there is debatable.
Id definitely put him behind the 2 Cavs, Brunson, Jrue and Haliburton. I think he’s probably better than VanVleet. Better than sore Achilles Harden but probably worse than healthy Harden