Aaron Hernandez: eating bugs not steaks

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soxfan121

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Omar's Wacky Neighbor said:
Ouch:
 
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer 17s
DA says the state has the murder weapon from July 2012, that they allege Aaron Hernandez fired.
 
IANAL, but I have watched enough Law & Order to wonder how they are going to tie the murder weapon to Hernandez. 
 
And is it possible the State has a better case on the 2012 murders (because they have a murder weapon, for one thing)? If so, can the State go forward with the 2012 charges before the 2013 Lloyd case?
 

dcmissle

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jon abbey said:
The prosecution was quoting what Hernandez allegedly said right after shooting into the car, meaning that Hernandez's friend must be testifying against him. 
 
I think I got one in the head and one in the chest, he allegedly told a friend riding with him, the prosecutor said.
What you tell a neighbor after shooting a couple of varmints that have laid waste to your garden.

The depravity seems fully laid out -- then there's another revelation. We are way past lessons to be drawn with this guy; he's too much of an outlier to be instructive in running an NFL team.

I'd love to know, though, whether any of his team mates ever sensed the monster. Also, even while acknowledging that his friends were no saints and probably not very bright, how could you feel safe in his company after witnessing stuff like this? Wasn't it obvious he was more unhinged and menacing than your average Joe Pesci character?
 

fairlee76

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Omar's Wacky Neighbor said:
I guess "Say hello to my little friend" is too cliche  Odds that he held the pistol sideways......?
 
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer 1h
Suffolk County DA says Hernandez rolled down his window at the corner of Herald and Shawmut, said, "Yo, what's up now?" and opened fire.
Someone spent the prior night watching "Menace to Society."
 

fairlee76

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Reverend said:
 
I hear that. The first big college party I went to, I had someone nudge me while I was holding a wet cup and I spilled my beer all over some hockey player's lap. I was apoplectic and worried and he just gave me a cool, "Hey, no worries man--these things happen." That was my first HolyShitILoveCollegeAndI'mInTheRightPlace Moment and I remember it to this day.
 
Imagine living your whole life worrying about high school bs that should have ended in high school? 
 
If he ever gets out of solitary, I wonder how many other inmates are gonna spill his drink just for shits and giggles?
The spill drinks gag would never get old.  "Ooops, Aaaarrroonn, looks like I spilt half of your Tang on you...What's up now?!"
 
My clearest "respect" memory from my early 20s was when I returned home from college and went out with a buddy who had joined the military.  Dude could not go an entire night without getting "disrespected."  Always ended with him getting kicked out of bars/fighting and the rest of us teasing him/worrying he was going to come after us.
 

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soxfan121 said:
 
IANAL, but I have watched enough Law & Order to wonder how they are going to tie the murder weapon to Hernandez
 
And is it possible the State has a better case on the 2012 murders (because they have a murder weapon, for one thing)? If so, can the State go forward with the 2012 charges before the 2013 Lloyd case?
 
1) You tie the gun to the shooting itself via standard ballistics.  Slugs from the bodies/car will be matched to a test bullet fired into a gel tank.   That can establish this particular gun is the one that fired the bullets that killed the victims.  At worst you get an inconclusive match, but at least the caliber of the gun will match the caliber of the bullets.  At best you get a rifling match.  Given the number of bullets fired, odds are they'll get a decent rifling match off one of the slugs.
 
2) You tie the gun to AH by the following:
2a) You test for DNA and fingerprints.  Either one from AH is pretty much a slam dunk.
2b) You trace the physical location of the gun.  You start with where and how it was found and work back to Hernandez.  The woman who said football players put it in her trunk, etc.  Perhaps that goes back to Hernandez placing the gun where it was found.  Any evidence that describes how the gun moved from AH to the final resting place is helpful.
2c) You introduce corroborating testimony about the use of that type of gun in the shooting itself.  
2d) You trace the history of the gun itself - purchases, etc.
 
**
In this sort of case, the prosecution has the deaths, apparent motive, apparent method, and an eyewitness to the shootings.  They may also have other evidence of the shootings (statements made by AH, tattoos on AH).  So if there's anything at all that 1) strongly suggests the gun was the murder weapon, and 2) strongly suggests AH has ties to the gun, then it's pretty much a done deal.  Granted, anything can happen at trial, and we've yet to hear what the defense might be, but that's really all you need to put together a credible prosecution attempt.  Edit - evidence can have a kind of gestalt or synergistic effect on juries. Meaning that if the eyewitness is meh, but there's video that shows AH circling the block, and the ties to the gun are suggestive/plausible, and the gun is definitely the gun used in the killings, some juries will convict by dismissing the flaws in the "softer" evidence and asking themselves "What else could have happened?" A good defense attorney will fight that tooth and nail, but after a certain point, the overall weight of the evidence often matters, despite the individual flaws which may be in portions of it.  
 
In terms of liability, AH is now facing 2 cases.  That's much harder to beat than one case.  The odds of him walking were minimal, but they've now gone down significantly.  The prosecution has more bullets in the gun.  So to speak.  (Don't forget the weapons charges seem to be pretty much a foregone conclusion - and while not as severe as the murders, they're sort of a nice little insurance package for the DA.)
 
In a worst-case scenario for AH, the state might be able to refer to both cases during the prosecution of either case.  (Requires special circumstances and a special motion for permission to do so.)  If such a motion is made and granted, it further drives down AH's chances. 
 
The state can try the cases in any order the state wishes.  The judge may force one or the other to trial if one of the cases significantly lags behind the other in terms of discovery/readiness. 
 

dcmissle

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What you have is a cluster of cases that should settle, but probably won't.

The Commonwealth has no death penalty. What it can offer AH is the prospect of a few free years at the end of his life.

AH has no realistic prospect of avoiding a conviction across the board, and he knows that a conviction will land him a life sentence or damn near close to it. What he can offer is insurance against a bizarre outcome, and the cost of multiple trials.

So we're in a narrow range of plausible outcomes, and a 50-year sentence ( for example) would spark outrage from almost no one. But don't hold your breath, even though if he goes to trial and loses, he's probably locked up for good.
 

crystalline

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True- incredibly stupid and a waste.

PaulinMyrBch said:
 
Stupid doesn't do it justice. He's a poser. Gang mentality without the gang skills. Gang crimes don't get solved because no one wants to get smoked. Problem for AH is none of these guys knew anything about gang life.
Until Lloyd was killed it looked like the 2012 shooting was not going to get solved.
 

DJnVa

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crystalline said:
True- incredibly stupid and a waste.


Until Lloyd was killed it looked like the 2012 shooting was not going to get solved.
 
Except that he thought Lloyd was going to spill the beans (spill the drink!!!!).
 

crystalline

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Rovin Romine said:
Lloyd wasn't at the 2012 shooting, was he?  If not, and Lloyd knew, other people know as well. 
I think it was reported far above that Lloyd was at the club that night.

I still find it amazing none of the 5 guys in the car were the source of the leak. Two killed, one wounded and taken to the hospital, and two managed to avoid the bullets, get out of the car and run across the street while Hernandez was allegedly still firing.

Edit: I suppose it makes more sense if the men had no idea who Hernandez was, no idea they slighted someone at the bar and didnt recognize the driver and car. As has been said before- that is a crazy scenario.

2nd edit: 3 guys. Morbid, sorry.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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crystalline said:
True- incredibly stupid and a waste.


Until Lloyd was killed it looked like the 2012 shooting was not going to get solved.
 
Coincides with "until Hernandez was in custody"...
 
I don't think its a coincidence that some witness memories have improved since Aaron has been locked up. That and the public exposure of the fact that he probably does not have the gang ties they feared.  Also they found the vehicle, which energized the investigation into the double murder.
 

simplyeric

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dcmissle said:
What you tell a neighbor after shooting a couple of varmints that have laid waste to your garden.

The depravity seems fully laid out -- then there's another revelation. We are way past lessons to be drawn with this guy; he's too much of an outlier to be instructive in running an NFL team.

I'd love to know, though, whether any of his team mates ever sensed the monster. Also, even while acknowledging that his friends were no saints and probably not very bright, how could you feel safe in his company after witnessing stuff like this? Wasn't it obvious he was more unhinged and menacing than your average Joe Pesci character?
Wasn't there some sort of issue between AH and Welker, welker talked to BB and was essentially told to handle it himself...
Next thing you know, welker is in Denver for some odd set of circumstances... Maybe he felt like he had to leave?

Obviously this is a lot of conjecture. It's just something that occurred to me a little while ago.

I'll go back to drinking my Boston lager now.
 

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No, Welker rejected the Patriots' offer and the Patriots moved on to Amendola, because they didn't want to wait for Welker to find out he wasn't worth what he thought he was worth and lose out on Amendola and Welker.
 

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simplyeric said:
Wasn't there some sort of issue between AH and Welker, welker talked to BB and was essentially told to handle it himself...
Next thing you know, welker is in Denver for some odd set of circumstances... Maybe he felt like he had to leave?

Obviously this is a lot of conjecture. It's just something that occurred to me a little while ago.

I'll go back to drinking my Boston lager now.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxBxK0dFU-w
 

simplyeric

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Darnell's Son said:
No, Welker rejected the Patriots' offer and the Patriots moved on to Amendola, because they didn't want to wait for Welker to find out he wasn't worth what he thought he was worth and lose out on Amendola and Welker.
Well obviously that's the 'official' story...

But yeah so Welker's signing was unrelated, but wasn't there an altercation between them (WW and AH)?
 

moly99

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dcmissle said:
AH has no realistic prospect of avoiding a conviction across the board, and he knows that a conviction will land him a life sentence or damn near close to it. What he can offer is insurance against a bizarre outcome, and the cost of multiple trials.
 
He could also potentially save some money for his daughter rather than wasting it on a trial he has no chance of winning. Even if he beats a few charges, he's still going to be an old man by the time he is released. What kind of life would he be looking at as a 55 year old three time murderer coming out of prison?
 
Then again, a guy who murders two people over an accidentally spilled drink probably isn't thinking about that.
 

soxfan121

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simplyeric said:
Well obviously that's the 'official' story...

But yeah so Welker's signing was unrelated, but wasn't there an altercation between them (WW and AH)?
 
If only someone had invented a way to look up information on the internet. 
 
I guess we'll all just suffer along without knowing whether your recollection is true since there's no way you could research this.
 

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moly99 said:
 
He could also potentially save some money for his daughter rather than wasting it on a trial he has no chance of winning. Even if he beats a few charges, he's still going to be an old man by the time he is released. What kind of life would he be looking at as a 55 year old three time murderer coming out of prison?
 
Then again, a guy who murders two people over an accidentally spilled drink probably isn't thinking about that.
 
A much better life than a 55 year old in prison?
 

simplyeric

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soxfan121 said:
 
If only someone had invented a way to look up information on the internet. 
 
I guess we'll all just suffer along without knowing whether your recollection is true since there's no way you could research this.
 
I was on my phone in a bar, and thought, you know, it was a conversation and all.   And of course...
 
dcmissle said:
I'd love to know, though, whether any of his team mates ever sensed the monster. 
 
clearly that couldn't have been looked up on the internet....
 
Rererences to this have already been posted:
 
Ex-teammate paints unflattering image of Hernandez
 
Sorry for giving this thread the sads.
 
 
I think this was what I was remembering
 
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/21/within-days-of-draft-hernandez-threatened-welker/
 
Wide receiver Wes Welker walked by, Hernandez asked for help, and Welker replied: “Rookie, you figure it out.”
According to Shalise Manza Young, Hernandez’s reply was “f— you Wes, I’ll f— you up!
 
 

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That' well documented, yes.  
 
That had nothing to do with Welker leaving which is also well documented as 121 notes above. 
 
I understand that you want it to be true but let's rehash all of this again.
 

simplyeric

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Dogman2 said:
That' well documented, yes.  
 
That had nothing to do with Welker leaving which is also well documented as 121 notes above. 
 
I understand that you want it to be true but let's rehash all of this again.
 
 
You understand incorrectly.  I was just "conversing" over a beer by means of a post in this thread, and then said "so Welker's signing was unrelated, but wasn't there an altercation between them?"  I didn't say that meaning to continue to insist that they were related.
The post I was initially replying to was rehashing the "did anyone know?" question, which has been asked before, as you know.  It's just a conversation.  
 

Dogman

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Ok.  I guess I misunderstood when you claimed, on one hand, that was the "official" story.  You even used quotation marks to highlight your doubts of the veracity of that story. Then, on the other hand, you said they were unrelated but still reiterated there was a spat that, inferring, had something to do with the unofficial story of why Welker is no longer a Patriot.
 
Whatever.  Cheers.
 

Van Everyman

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So this shit had to be from a PCP addiction, yes? Nobody just blows two people away because one of them spilled a drink on him. Other than Jared Remy that is.
 

crystalline

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uncannymanny said:
Sadly, lives are ended over stupid shit like this every single day. If you don't react to every slight, however small or unintentional, you're not a "real man."
 

dcmissle

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Van Everyman said:
So this shit had to be from a PCP addiction, yes? Nobody just blows two people away because one of them spilled a drink on him. Other than Jared Remy that is.
That would be the least chilling explanation. But it would prompt this question to people who know a little something about PCP -- what happens when you go cold turkey?

If this accounts for the killing, remember that AH was locked up mere days after whacking Lloyd. I don't recall any withdrawal stories, which means there is little "withdrawal" from PCP addiction, or that jail house is incredibly buttoned up from a leak standpoint.
 

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Van Everyman said:
So this shit had to be from a PCP addiction, yes? Nobody just blows two people away because one of them spilled a drink on him. Other than Jared Remy that is.
 
It's not worth going to jail because somebody smudged your Puma.
 

simplyeric

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Dogman2 said:
Ok.  I guess I misunderstood when you claimed, on one hand, that was the "official" story.  You even used quotation marks to highlight your doubts of the veracity of that story. Then, on the other hand, you said they were unrelated but still reiterated there was a spat that, inferring, had something to do with the unofficial story of why Welker is no longer a Patriot.
 
Whatever.  Cheers.
Ah sorry. Totally makes sense. I was feigning skepticism, but I can see why that wouldn't have been clear.
 

Marciano490

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dcmissle said:
That would be the least chilling explanation. But it would prompt this question to people who know a little something about PCP -- what happens when you go cold turkey?

If this accounts for the killing, remember that AH was locked up mere days after whacking Lloyd. I don't recall any withdrawal stories, which means there is little "withdrawal" from PCP addiction, or that jail house is incredibly buttoned up from a leak standpoint.
And what effects does it have on your body? I can get performing on weed and even coke, but I thought pcp messed you up far worse.
 

soxhop411

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Lawyers representing Aaron Hernandez will appear in front of Superior Court Judge E. Susan Garsh next week to ask that murder and firearm indictments related to the homicide of Odin Lloyd be dismissed.
Defense attorneys James L. Sultan, Charles W. Rankin and Michael K. Fee say in court papers that prosecutors called more than 80 witnesses before the grand jury and introduced a “mountain of documentary and video evidence” against the former Patriots tight end.
Yet they argue the presentation failed to establish probable cause that Hernandez either murdered Llyod himself or participated in a joint venture with Carlos Ortiz and Ernest Wallace to do so.
“Specifically, there was no forensic evidence presented linking Hernandez to the shooting, no eyewitness testimony, no inculpatory statements by Hernandez, and no evidence that Hernandez had any motive to kill Lloyd,” the defense writes. “Basically, all that the Commonwealth showed the grand jury is that Hernandez was in a car with Lloyd and several other individuals shortly before Lloyd was shot to death.”
Hernandez’s team says the prosecution compensated for the missing evidence by improperly inundating the grand jurors with irrelevant, unfairly prejudicial and improper evidence designed to inflame them.
“To compensate for gaping holes in its proof, the Commonwealth sought to portray Hernandez, a well-known, popular professional athlete, as an immoral drug-user with violent criminal propensities,” they write. “This deliberate strategy worked.”
In deciding the motion, the parties will not present any witnesses or evidence.
Rather, Garsh will make her decision by reviewing the grand jury minutes and considering any arguments the lawyers choose to make at the hearing and in their pleadings.
It is extremely rare for a judge to grant such a request, particularly in a first-degree murder case.
To coin a football phrase, Hernandez’s odds of prevailing on the motion are a Hail Mary, as the legal standard needed to survive a motion to dismiss is low.
But at a minimum, the motion will require the prosecution to shed more light on its theory of guilt against Hernandez and provide the defense with a better idea as to how the government will look to meet its burden of proof at trial.
The prosecution has until June 13 to submit a written opposition. Garsh, on May 27, denied a prosecution request to extend the deadline to file a response.
The motion is slated to be heard on June 16.
– David E. Frank


Read more: http://masslawyersweekly.com/2014/06/11/dismissal-motion-up-next-in-commonwealth-v-aaron-hernandez/#ixzz34NPTQMPT
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Leaving in a bit to the studio :)
Live in court right now:
 
http://abcnews.go.com/live?stream=4
 
"Aaron Hernandez in Court: Lawyers Ask to Drop Charges"
 
Only part I've caught is defense claim that murders of Bradley and Ortiz were not similar enough to be consider "signature crimes".
 
Discussion of if Defense should have access to the original HDD of security tapes, instead of just being given CDs of the content.
 

Rovin Romine

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Omar's Wacky Neighbor said:
Live in court right now:
 
http://abcnews.go.com/live?stream=4
 
"Aaron Hernandez in Court: Lawyers Ask to Drop Charges"
 
Only part I've caught is defense claim that murders of Bradley and Ortiz were not similar enough to be consider "signature crimes".
 
Discussion of if Defense should have access to the original HDD of security tapes, instead of just being given CDs of the content.
 
Rovin Romine said:
 
 
In a worst-case scenario for AH, the state might be able to refer to both cases during the prosecution of either case.  (Requires special circumstances and a special motion for permission to do so.)  If such a motion is made and granted, it further drives down AH's chances. 
 
 
Didn't catch the broadcast, but the state is seeking to introduce the facts of one murder in the other murder trial.  
 
The normal rule is you try each crime separately in a vacuum (unless the crimes were all committed in a string or at the same time).  The prosecutor is there to try the crime, not the person.  The suggestion that the defendant is a bad person or is a criminal or has acted badly before is considered to be highly prejudicial in terms of inappropriately swaying the jury, and is often referred to as a "propensity" issue.  The aversion to this kind of "he's a bad person" evidence is so strong that normally the prosecutor can't even have their witnesses refer to prior "bad acts" (i.e., situations that were not convictions, but imply that the person on trial is a criminal or untrustworthy.)   The policy behind this is sound - otherwise the police would simply arrest anyone near a crime with a bad record and rely on the total facts of that person's prior life to secure a conviction.  
 
There are two basic "exceptions." 
 
One is if the defendant testifies - then any evidence the prosecutor has that they are inherently untrustworthy (i.e., information that attacks the credibly of the witness/defendant) can be introduced.  Usually that's limited to things like prior felony convictions - but just the bare fact that the defendant was convicted of a prior felony.  If the defendant mentions any of these forbidden subjects that that usually "opens the door" for the prosecutor to follow up and inquire in more detail. 
 
The second exception to the "no prior bad act" rule is informally called MIMIC - Motive, Intent, Mistake, Identity, or Common scheme or plan.  The idea is that the prosecution wants to introduce the evidence of the prior bad act/crime because they need to address something other than the "badness" of the defendant's character.  (So it's not really an "exception," so much as it is a end-run - see below.)  For example, a prior bad act that shows the motive of the defendant to commit the current crime; you can think of this as being part of "the narrative" of the crime.  Usually the MIMIC standards are very high.  I don't know specific MA law on this point though.  But in most jurisdictions there has to be 1) a huge degree of connection 2) a clear reason to introduce it (meaning that information can't be shown in any other less prejudicial way.)  Even then there are limits on what you can say as a prosecutor.  
 
Both might be a feature of this trial.  If AH testifies, he may stumble in an answer that might allow the prosecution to tie the two murders together in some way.  Or, if the prosecution gets their motion granted, the prosecution may be able to show that under a MIMIC theory the jury should hear about the other crime.  I would have guessed that "motive" would have been the primary basis for the motion if Odin knew about the prior murders.  If that can be shown, I can't imagine a judge entirely keeping the prior murder out.  
 
While it's a powerful tool for the prosecution, it's not without risks.  1) they State might create an issue for an appeal of an otherwise "clean" conviction, 2) if the second crime isn't handled skillfully, the defense can sometimes "adopt" that crime as yet another thing the State hasn't proven, more speculation and guesswork on their part, more need to railroad someone, etc.  
 
***
As a final thought, "evidence" as a body of law is fascinating.  The basic point of the rules of evidence is to make the process fair - and that means that evidentiary rules are largely concerned with not allowing information to go in front of the fact-finder (jury) until it passes various tests/thresholds to show that it is relevant to the case itself and also meets a threshold of reliability.  The obvious example is hearsay, and it's very common-sense.  You can't try to convict someone (or win a civil case) based on a witness saying, "A year ago I (Abe) heard Bill (who is not here today and who will not be testifying as a witness) say that Carl is a dirty rotten Communist who cheats on his taxes, molests little girls, and probably committed the robbery we're here today for."  How is that fair unless we get to find out about Bill or directly ask Bill questions?  And what if Bill is just making it up or says the information all came to him in a dream - a fact-finder shouldn't even be given the information in the first place. 
 
However, the parties can offer evidence for specific points which "get around" some of this screening process.  So in the hearsay example context, in some particular circumstances you could have Abe testify that he ran away from Carl because he thought Carl was a blah-blah-blah, because Bill told him Carl was a blah-blah-blah.  The legal purpose of putting that in front of the jury is only to show the effect the information had on Abe's mind, not to suggest Carl was a blah-blah-blah.  However, the average jury is going to think that they've just been told someone really really thought Carl was a blah-blah-blah, and so Carl is more likely to be a blah-blah-blah, and therefore, more likely to have committed the crime.  
 
This is rather like the idea that the prosecutor introduces evidence of prior convictions to attack a testifying defendant's credibility, but not their character, or their propensity for criminal activity.  In the real world, juries pretty much always view prior convictions as an indictment of the defendant's character, and evidence that the defendant is more likely to have committed the crime. 
 
Sometimes these type of situations are actual "exceptions" to a rule and sometimes they're "offered into evidence for a different reason."  The end result is that the jury hears about the stuff that would ordinarily be kept out.  The upshot is that while AH may not be accused of murder A during the murder B trial, there may be ways for the prosecution to let the jury know that AH is accused of murder A as well.  
 
*Caveat- a lot of the stuff I post on crim law and procedure should be taken with a grain of salt.  I routinely cut corners to try to flesh out the issue for those curious without posting an entire law outline overly reliant on specific legal terms.  I cleaned up the post a bit with regards to an exception v. evidence offered for another reason. 
 
Bottom line current assessment; AH is still toast.  And we're talking charcoal, not lightly browned.  
 

Average Reds

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Buffalo Head said:
Good point. I put you on ignore. Thanks!
 
I get that you were trying to be funny - at least I think that's what you were doing - but your last three posts here are a pretty dramatic display of pointlessly assholic behavior.
 

Rovin Romine

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SMU_Sox said:
The caller's point was that you were too verbose.
 
That's what being trapped in a lobby with a laptop gets me.  
 
I'll try to dumb it down in the future though.
 
Do you think I hurt his feelings or something?
 

barbed wire Bob

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Rovin Romine said:
 
That's what being trapped in a lobby with a laptop gets me.  
 
I'll try to dumb it down in the future though.
 
Do you think I hurt his feelings or something?
Possibly.  Many sensitive souls frequent this board.  The other possibility is that he is most likely an  asshole a lawyer and already knows all of this shit.  As a non-lawyer I appreciate  your posts explaining what's going on.
 

Judge Mental13

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It was a really long post and he was busting your balls about it. 
 
I think we can go ahead and close the case, counselor. 
 

Reverend

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I think I may be going nearsighted in my left eye.
 

kolbitr

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682
Providence, RI
RR is one of the more unusually informative lawyers on this board, despite SOSH being swarming with them. His post may have been verbose, but it was still valuable, which is all I care about. It's unsurprising that a journalist such as Buffalo Head found it too prolix, but really, aren't we dealing with forms of rhetoric? The minimalists on the board should translate it, rather than object, I feel.
 
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