Rozier starting at roughly $13 million covers the necessary salary in a Nets scenario. That’s his market value. The Suns and Hornets would likely gladly pay it.
Al Horford: he gawn
- Thread starter amfox1
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Why would you pay anyone to take Rozier when there are multiple teams that want him? I mean if he were Brad Wanamaker, sure, you’d need to pay them to pay Rozier the market rate for rotational Gs. But he isn’t. If nothing else Charlotte will take him as their Walker replacement. And he just wants a chance to start and compile numbers, so I doubt he kicks back much. And if the Knicks are willing to go crazy and offer 4/80, you use them as the third team and take him at the even higher cap number.
Because we will give them something for something they were going to do anyway
They're not doing it in a vacuum, they would need to this to *potentially* keep Horford or get an MLE.
They’d already be paying Charlotte, with Rozier, when the alternative is losing Walker and having nothing to show for it. If New York or Phoenix want to pry Rozier away from a 3/45 deal then they need to make a bid, and if they want to horn their way into the deal for Rozier I’m sure that Boston would be happy to let them participate.
But at this point it’s Boston paying Brooklyn a couple of draft picks to send a future #2 to Charlotte to facilitate a Rozier for Walker deal.
The Nets and Terry are the two potential holdup points.
Terry if he thinks he'll get a better offer (or doesn't want to go to Charlotte) the Nets because they know that they're the ones who get to suck value out of this deal, so they'll ask a heavy price.
Charlotte should be fine, they want Terry, and he's unlikely to sign for the $12M in cap space that they have, so this lets them get him at his price (somewhere between 13 and 16M a year I'd guess) and stay over the cap so they get a full MLE if they want it.
Terry if he thinks he'll get a better offer (or doesn't want to go to Charlotte) the Nets because they know that they're the ones who get to suck value out of this deal, so they'll ask a heavy price.
Charlotte should be fine, they want Terry, and he's unlikely to sign for the $12M in cap space that they have, so this lets them get him at his price (somewhere between 13 and 16M a year I'd guess) and stay over the cap so they get a full MLE if they want it.
You'd do it to create the cap situation to keep Horford. Celts have to renounce Rozier to sign Walker, so they aren't "giving" Charlotte anything.
It especially makes sense if KD is not coming to BRK and, therefore, being hard-capped is not an issue for BRK this year.
Agreed, though you lay out what Charlotte may also kick in value for the trade to the Nets.
While I'm not completely sure when the trade was/will be finalized, but wouldn't Baynes be off the table? Even if the deal hasn't been finalized that would be an awful look for the team to rescind the deal
There is a parallel debate taking place over at CelticStrong, kicked off back on Wednesday in a thread that foreshadowed recent discussions. The OP is Saltlover, who is a very good poster and knows far more than I do about the salary cap. I believe he is an accountant in real life.
https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=100640.0
I don't know if the following is correct or not, but it seems to be one thing not mentioned in this thread so far.
Right now, they are debating and unsure whether it occur since "even if Rozier signed to a max deal, the Celtics would still be about $13 million short of outgoing salary to match for Kemba. Kyrie would need to be the primary outgoing salary to make a S&T possible that keeps Horford’s Bird rights. Kyrie on his own isn’t enough either, about $6 million short, but that’s an easier hurdle."
https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=100640.0
I don't know if the following is correct or not, but it seems to be one thing not mentioned in this thread so far.
Right now, they are debating and unsure whether it occur since "even if Rozier signed to a max deal, the Celtics would still be about $13 million short of outgoing salary to match for Kemba. Kyrie would need to be the primary outgoing salary to make a S&T possible that keeps Horford’s Bird rights. Kyrie on his own isn’t enough either, about $6 million short, but that’s an easier hurdle."
They don't have the money available to sign Kemba unless they renounce Rozier. If he's not renounced, there's a cap hold on us, which prevents us from giving Kemba the max.
Technically they’d be re-signing Al normally (you can go over the cap to re-sign your own FA). Then they’d be doing a S&T to sign Kemba while being over the cap.
Except that if Boston renounced Rozier then Charlotte doesn’t get anything and Walker leaves. As a sign & trade they get Rozier at market rates to replace Walker. Clearly a worse player, but then they’re in full tank mode anyway.
Ok. So this makes some sense. But wouldn’t the inbound contract from Walker be greater than what’s going out with Rozier? Meaning the trade increases the amount they are over the cap. Is this where some ballast needs to be added?
Right—Kyrie would have to be S&T’d into the Nets’ cap space.
Edit: (or they could trade Smart or Hayward, but I don’t think the team feels that’s desirable).
I believe under the base-year comp rules Walker only counts for $16 mil or so (half of total salary) and thus he and Rozier are easier to swap.
The deal is done, but the paperwork isn’t filed. So they can just add the Baynes to Phoenix trade as part of the Walker deal, and use the Milwaukee #1 as part of the two touch rule (i.e. the Milwaukee #1 goes from Phoenix to Brooklyn thus satisfying the requirement).
Why wouldn’t Rozier be subject to base year comp as well? He certainly will be making a greater than 50% increase in salary. If Rozier signs for $14M it would only count for $7M.
Ok. Now I get it. Thanks for clearing it up. I’m in awe of the fact that NBA front offices can keep all this straight.
Awesome development. Seems Cha should also be compensating BK for this so hopefully the Celtics cost is marginally lower (not Memphis).
Not to the Heat but back to CLE. Boston got a first round pick (that they later dealt for IT4) and Tyler Zeller, I believe, in exchange for Keith Bogans' non-guaranteed $5 million contract (which counted for salary matching purposes at the time)..
They don't need to do an S&T to re-sign Horford. They need it for Kemba if they keep Horford.
They currently have an Al Horford cap hold counting against their cap. In order to sign Kemba into cap space, they need to renounce Horford's Bird rights and cap hold. If they do that, then all they can offer Horford is a 2 year deal worth $4.8 per year (the room exception). Horford's not taking that, obviously.
So the strategy for keeping Al and bringing in Kemba requires a sign and trade. They are above the cap until they reounce all the cap holds. If they can work sign and trades where Irving and Rozier go out and Kemba comes in, then they remain over the cap and don;t lose anyone's Bird rights, meaning that they would then be free to sign Al to an extension even thought they are above the cap. This would also mean that instead of the room exception they would have the MLE (~$9 million) and the biennial exception ($3.7). Although they would also be hard capped at $138 million or something, so not sure if they can really bring all of those exceptions into play.
Yeah, no, Brooklyn isn’t getting a lottery pick out of this. They’re likely getting the Milwaukee #1 and a Charlotte #2. But free draft picks are going to be necessary when you’re building a team around Irving and Tobias Harris.
I am not certain, but I believe the answer may be that Charlotte would be under the cap and thus not subject to BYC rule on the player they are acquiring, while Celts would be an over-the-cap team and thus subject to the rule.
I think that is as far as I can get us
BYC is your outgoing, the incoming is the same, so Rozier will be a small hit for us, a full hit for CHA, which will match up with the smaller hit CHA takes for Kemba, and then Kemba's full hit for us, matches up with our partial hit for Kyrie who is also a BYC,
Edit to clarify... say Rozier gets 15M a year...
BOS outgoing calculation- Rozier 7.5M, Kyrie- 25M total 32.5M
BOS incoming Calculation Kemba 32.6M
CHA outgoing calculation- Kemba 16.5M
CHA incoming calculation- Rozier 15M
Nets- incoming 32.5M for Kyrie
I agree, but they do have a lot of leverage here. Ultimately I think this is what they settle on.
Danny has a pretty strong track record in terms of willingness to walk. He wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) have any trouble calling Brooklyn’s bluff if they say it’s MEM or nothing.
Ultimately for Nets it's free picks in exchange for a competitor getting better. So unless they think they are getting Durant, they are not (right now) a contender and thus they should take the picks if they are material---any 1, or even possibly multiple 2s.
If they are getting Durant then I don't think they have any interest in helping the Celts.
So if you're an NBA owner, you're looking for people with both J.D. and C.P.A. after their names, check.
Thanks for this breakdown.
No coincidence that Mike Zarren, the Celtic’s assistant GM and capologist, is a JD who is also their general counsel.
If the alternative were Horford to Philly, I’d think they’d rather have Horford in Boston. Plus, even with Durant, with that injury they’re going to want the free picks in hopes of hitting on depth to keep his minutes lower in ‘21.
Also the current Nets front office made a point of ignoring Celtics bitterness (prior to the picks fully conveying) and just focusing on how they could get better. I doubt they change their mo tons now.
I agree how they perceive the alternative is important here, and also that if they think it is Philly they are more motivated to help.
I don't agree on the Durant piece, I think they'd assess Celts as a multi-year competitor and prefer not to help unless the benefit for Nets is more than a low 1st round pick. Pehraps we'll see--Stein tweeted that Nets are exuding a confident vibe about getting Durant and DeAndre Jordan.
Where are you getting outgoing 25M for Kyrie? Isn't he at 20.1M BYC (18-19 amount)?
I suggest a three-tier deal as follows:
1. Rozier to CHA, Walker to BOS
2. Kyrie to BRK (BOS takes back Harris to free up 6M net for BRK and pays the #1 obtained in the Baynes deal to facilitate the trade)
3. Baynes to PHX wrapped into deal in order to use Baynes' salary in the BYC calculations
I think it would work as follows:
TRADE #1
BOS out - Rozier 9.2, Kyrie 20.1
BOS in - Walker 32.7
CHA out - Walker 16.4
CHA in - Rozier 18.4, protected #2 pick
BRK out - protected #2 pick
BRK in - Kyrie 32.7 (into space)
(giving effect to the trade, BOS remains over the cap - (32.7+32.7+12.6+7.8+6.5+3.1+1.9+1.6=98.9 salaries)+(0.1 dead money)+(approx 65 in cap holds))
TRADE #2
BOS out - Baynes 5.5, Ojeleye 1.6
BOS in - Harris 7.7
BRK out - Harris 7.7
BRK in - Ojeleye 1.6 (into space), MIL 2020 #1 pick
PHX out - MIL 2020 #1 pick
PHX in - Baynes 5.5 (into space)
(trading Harris frees up a little bit more room for KD and DAJ)
EDIT: changes Rozier $ based on $18.4M
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Delete me.
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@Shams Charania Verified account @ShamsCharania 36s36 seconds ago
Free agent guard Terry Rozier plans to agree to a three-year, $58M contract with the Charlotte Hornets via sign-and-trade, league sources tell@TheAthleticNBA @Stadium.
Free agent guard Terry Rozier plans to agree to a three-year, $58M contract with the Charlotte Hornets via sign-and-trade, league sources tell