All-Potential and All-Disappointment Teams

lexrageorge

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It's funny that Matt Young made the All Disappointment team. I mean, yes, he was terrible. But he was terrible before he came to Boston on that ridiculous contract. And performed as expected.

Mike Torrez is an interesting one; was awesome that first half of 1978, and then fell apart and never seemed to regain his form.

Stanley anyone?
Which one?
 

nolasoxfan

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It's funny that Matt Young made the All Disappointment team. I mean, yes, he was terrible. But he was terrible before he came to Boston on that ridiculous contract. And performed as expected.

Mike Torrez is an interesting one; was awesome that first half of 1978, and then fell apart and never seemed to regain his form.


Which one?
He broke my young, 1978 heart. I can still see BFD's HR drifting into the LF Monster net. From that moment on, I swore to anyone that would listen that Torrez was a Yankee infiltrator.
 

curly2

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Was Rey Quinones really hyped? I just remember him as a meh major leaguer. H hit a little in A and AA, but not in AAA.
Quinones came to the Sox when Ted Williams was still an instructor at spring training. Ted said something to the effect that he liked Quinones' swing, and the hype train took off.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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After reading through the rosters so far, I have to echo some others regarding the All-Potential team, and nominate Peter Gammons to be the GM. So many of those guys rode the Gammo hype train through the minors, I wonder if there'd be a complete enough roster to fill a lineup without him.

And as I posted earlier, Lou Gorman's specialty seemed to be signing known name guys who were edging past or fully past their primes, and holding them up as the prize of the off-season. Anyone paying attention would see the hype was overdone, but naive Sox fans (like 10, 11 year old me back then) bought into it and were disappointed pretty much every time. The 1992-93 off season was really special. Traded for the aforementioned Ivan Calderon and signed 109 year old Andre Dawson, while in the same off-season letting Ellis Burks walk and trading Phil Plantier (same day as Dawson signing). Oh, and there was a free agent on the market by the name of Barry Bonds.

So I want to nominate Gorman as the GM of the All Disappointment team.
 

Bernie Carbohydrate

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Young Bernie Carbohydrate, watching the game on TV 38, October 2, 1983.

Yaz took the field for the last time in the top of the 8th, tipped his cap, and jogged off in favor of a defensive replacement.

I distinctly remember Ned Martin talking about how the Sox were in a transition, and while it was sad to see Yaz go, we could look forward to a new generation of stars, such as the young man now in left field.

That future star was Chico Walker.
 

Van Everyman

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Joel Hanrahan and Andrew Bailey are warming up in the All-Disappointment pen.

Both were pretty big "closer of the future" trades. Both were terrible, then injured. Bailey was serviceable in low leverage work in his second season. Hanrahan disappeared into the ether.
Mark Melancon deserved to be here then.

Renteria had to have been hurt the season he was with us. He looked terrible defensively which when combined with him whining about snakes in the grass of the Fenway infield makes me think the reason he failed was part injury and part not being able to handle Boston (which I think was true of Melancon as well, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere).

I think Coco Crisp, while not maybe worthy of being on this list, qualifies as a disappointment as well. He gets a bit of a pass from most of us for the great defense he played in 2007 but expectations (“Did you see that catch that Coco made?”) were super high when he was acquired. A .300 hitter when we traded for him with a reputation for being a spark plug, he broke his hand the first week sliding into third base, never really got back on track with the bat and quietly developed a reputation as a sulker.
 

Bernie Carbohydrate

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For all-disappointment catcher (in addition to Dave Valle, whose only job was to back up the mediocre Damon Berryhill and couldn't manage that) I suggest Spanky Macfarlane, whose only Sox season was 1994.

MacFarlane was supposed to fix the 1993 Berryhill/Valle mess. He had some pop and a RH swing made for Fenway. We signed him from KC, where in 1993 he'd posted an .821 OPS. He gave us a .723 OPS in 115 games, then left as a free agent. He resigned with KC in 1995, and, yup, posted a .838 OPS the next year. He must have missed the BBQ.
 

The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

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UPDATED.


The key to All-Potential Sox would be 5 tool pom-pom waving that never fully materialized, despite opportunity. Never trade this guy! He'll be hitting 30 home runs in no time. Etc. (Injury exception applies - Westmoreland, etc)

1B: Lars Anderson, Dernell Stenson, Michael Almanzar, Dave Stapleton
2B: Donnie Saddler, Wil Cordero
SS: Rey Quinones, Juan Bustabad
3B: Wilton Veras, Arquimedez Pozo, Will Middlebrooks, Garin Cecchini, Tony Blanco, Andy Marte.
OF: Franchy Cordero, Michael Coleman, Wily Mo Pena, Rusney Castillo, Jeff McNeely, La Schelle Tarver, Sam Horn, Izzy Alcantara, Greg Blosser, Jason Place, David Murphy.
C: Lavarnway, Lomasney, Swihart, Wedge, Soppach.
DH: Morgan Burkhart.

SP: Robinson Checo, Brian Rose, Henry Owens, Paxton Crawford, Michael Bowden, Allen Webster, Ruby De La Rosa, Dennis Tankersley, Bobby Sprowl, Mike Brown, Frankie Rodriguez.
RP: Craig Hansen, Anastacio Martinez

Managed by: Joe Kerrigan, Butch Hobson.
Does David Murphy deserve to be on the all-potential sox list? He was a college player drafted by Theo (his first draft IIRC) as a high floor, low ceiling guy. He ended up with the kind of career one might have reasonably hoped for from him, except mostly after he departed.
 

ngruz25

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There was a time when Henry Owens was a higher ranked prospect than Matt Barnes, Mookie Betts, and Rafael Devers.

That's also true of some other guys already discussed (Swihart, Garin Cecchini, Ranaudo), but man was Henry Owens quickly forgotten. He started 16 games over two seasons and was never heard from again.
 

mwonow

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Man, there are going to be a LOT of pitchers on the Disappointment squad.

Frank Viola, anybody?

And who was the guy who got hit with a liner, and someone else said something like "he'll be okay, it hit him in the fat?"

EDIT - also, Eric Gagne has to be in the 'pen
Just remembered, it was Bobby Jenks who took a liner to his ample gut. In his one year with the Red Sox, his ERA went from 4.44 to 6.32, while saves went from 27 to, um, 0. This guy should get a seat on the 'pen bench with Gagne. Embedded MFY Ramiro Mendoza (2002 ERA with Yanks, 3.44; 2003 with Sox, 6.75) is knocking on the door, too
 

GoJeff!

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Young Bernie Carbohydrate, watching the game on TV 38, October 2, 1983.

Yaz took the field for the last time in the top of the 8th, tipped his cap, and jogged off in favor of a defensive replacement.

I distinctly remember Ned Martin talking about how the Sox were in a transition, and while it was sad to see Yaz go, we could look forward to a new generation of stars, such as the young man now in left field.

That future star was Chico Walker.
My first Red Sox game.

Since the day before was Yaz day, we called it Chico day.
 

nvalvo

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Disappointment : Mike Torrez, Trey Ball, Adrian Gonzalez
Adrian Gonzalez posted 10 WAR in two seasons for less than $7m, a value proposition so good that the Dodgers accepted a boatload of deadweight contracts to take it off our hands.

In 2011, he finished seventh in the MVP voting! He won the Silver Slugger and the Gold Glove! He was merely good in 2012, and we were probably lucky that LA took the rest of his decline off our hands, but while he could arguably be an All-Disappointment team for the Dodgers, I don't see why one excellent year and another pretty good one would put him on ours.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Adrian Gonzalez posted 10 WAR in two seasons for less than $7m, a value proposition so good that the Dodgers accepted a boatload of deadweight contracts to take it off our hands.

In 2011, he finished seventh in the MVP voting! He won the Silver Slugger and the Gold Glove! He was merely good in 2012, and we were probably lucky that LA took the rest of his decline off our hands, but while he could arguably be an All-Disappointment team for the Dodgers, I don't see why one excellent year and another pretty good one would put him on ours.
I agree with this. The disappointment from our (Sox fan) vantage point is that he wasn't good enough to stave off the deterioration of an aging and expensive roster whose window was closing. But he was good enough to be the carrot by which the Sox jump started the tear-down/re-build process and solved a significant salary/luxury tax problem that resulted in two more championships for the franchise. I would think the only people decrying the Adrian Gonzalez experience in Boston are Anthony Rizzo super-fans.
 

Rovin Romine

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Updated.

Marvelous GM suggestions! (David Murphy removed, and some added, including Grady Little).

Dice-K is a tough call. He helped in 2007, was our best starter in 2008, and then got injured. I'm gonna say no, unless someone really argues him in there.

Please note the Injury Exception. If you list someone and in your post say they were disappointing because they got injured, they do not count. (Unless there was something truly special/obnoxious about the injury and/or their recovery and you make a case for it.)

If I missed someone, please remind me.

***
The key to All-Potential Sox would be 5 tool pom-pom waving that never fully materialized, despite opportunity. Never trade this guy! He'll be hitting 30 home runs in no time. Etc. (Injury exception applies - Westmoreland, etc)

1B: Lars Anderson, Dernell Stenson, Michael Almanzar, Dave Stapleton
2B: Donnie Saddler, Wil Cordero
SS: Rey Quinones, Juan Bustabad
3B: Wilton Veras, Arquimedez Pozo, Garin Cecchini, Tony Blanco, Will Middlebrooks, (honorable mention: Andy Marte).
OF: Franchy Cordero, Michael Coleman, Wily Mo Pena, Rusney Castillo, Jeff McNeely, La Schelle Tarver, Sam Horn, Izzy Alcantara, Greg Blosser, Chico Walker, Jason Place.
C: Lavarnway, Lomasney, Swihart, Wedge, Soppach.
DH: Morgan Burkhart.

SP: Robinson Checo, Brian Rose, Henry Owens, Paxton Crawford, Michael Bowden, Allen Webster, Ruby De La Rosa, Dennis Tankersley, Trey Ball, Bobby Sprowl, Mike Brown, Frankie Rodriguez.
RP: Craig Hansen, Anastacio Martinez

Managed by: Joe Kerrigan, Butch Hobson.
GM: Peter Gammons


The key to All-Disappointment Sox would be a reasonable expectation that was never met. (Injury exception applies - e.g. Matt Clement)

1B: Tony Clark, Danny Carter
2B: Wil Cordero, Carlos Baerga
SS: Edgar Renteria
3B: Panda
OF: Mark Whiten, Carl Crawford, Kevin Mitchell, Hanley Ramirez, Ivan Calderon.
C: AJ Pierzynski, Dave Valle, Macfarlane.
DH: Jack Clark, Roberto Petagine.

SP: Steve Avery, Matt Young, Frank Tanana
RP: Eric Gagne, Ramiro Mendoza

Managed by Bobby Valentine, Grady Little
GM: Lou Gorman
 
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nvalvo

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I agree with this. The disappointment from our (Sox fan) vantage point is that he wasn't good enough to stave off the deterioration of an aging and expensive roster whose window was closing. But he was good enough to be the carrot by which the Sox jump started the tear-down/re-build process and solved a significant salary/luxury tax problem that resulted in two more championships for the franchise. I would think the only people decrying the Adrian Gonzalez experience in Boston are Anthony Rizzo super-fans.
Exactly. I can see how, as one of the top players on two very disappointing editions of the Red Sox, Gonzalez would have a kind of aura of disappointment surrounding him, but he played very well here.
 

Rovin Romine

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Exactly. I can see how, as one of the top players on two very disappointing editions of the Red Sox, Gonzalez would have a kind of aura of disappointment surrounding him, but he played very well here.
Gonzalez more than met his reasonable expectations, especially given that there was some uncertainty due to his injury when he was acquired.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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The manager of the All-Potential team should be someone who everyone thought would be a future manager but never became one. My nominee: DeMarlo Hale.
 

ngruz25

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Adrian Gonzalez is an interesting case of a guy who arrived with extremely high expectations, and met those expectations, but not quite in the manner we would have predicted. He had less home run power but had a crazy number of singles and doubles. I recall folks salivating over his power potential moving from cavernous Petco to Fenway, especially given his opposite field stroke. He wasn't a 40 home run guy, but the sum total of his production was still fantastic. I'm not sure how much of that change in production was due to his shoulder injury.

His only full Red Sox season in 2011 was also pretty BABIP-fueled (.380, lead the league in hits for the only time in his career). The guy he was 2013 was more along the lines of what he would be for the rest of his career - less home run power, more doubles and singles power.
 

Sin Duda

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I think DeMarlo Hale would be the manager of the Missed Opportunity Team (or "Miss Topportunity" if you want it to have beauty pageant ring to it). These are the players where you can dream of what might have been. The most tragic ones are Ryan Westmoreland and Tony Conigliaro (I can still see that black eye staring back at me from the Sports Illustrated cover).

Is there enough momentum to do one more list?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The manager of the All-Potential team should be someone who everyone thought would be a future manager but never became one. My nominee: DeMarlo Hale.
Along those lines, who was the last manager to rise through the ranks by managing a Sox farm team or two? Hobson? Feels like the last guy to "graduate" from a minor league manager spot to the big league coaching staff was Arnie Beyeler?

That used to be the way new blood got injected into the managerial ranks. I guess since bench coach became a thing, that has become the gateway to a job as opposed to managing at AAA.
 

Bernie Carbohydrate

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Adrian Gonzalez is an interesting case of a guy who arrived with extremely high expectations, and met those expectations, but not quite in the manner we would have predicted. He had less home run power but had a crazy number of singles and doubles. I recall folks salivating over his power potential moving from cavernous Petco to Fenway, especially given his opposite field stroke. He wasn't a 40 home run guy, but the sum total of his production was still fantastic. I'm not sure how much of that change in production was due to his shoulder injury.

His only full Red Sox season in 2011 was also pretty BABIP-fueled (.380, lead the league in hits for the only time in his career). The guy he was 2013 was more along the lines of what he would be for the rest of his career - less home run power, more doubles and singles power.
You're describing the Mike Greenwell experience from an earlier era. He was supposed to be our next great slugging outfielder, continuing a tradition that went from Foxx to Ted to Yaz to Rice. He was instead a good OBP guy with doubles power. And people never quite forgave him. Ah, the 80s.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I think DeMarlo Hale would be the manager of the Missed Opportunity Team (or "Miss Topportunity" if you want it to have beauty pageant ring to it). These are the players where you can dream of what might have been. The most tragic ones are Ryan Westmoreland and Tony Conigliaro (I can still see that black eye staring back at me from the Sports Illustrated cover).

Is there enough momentum to do one more list?
Daniel Flores.


In the non tragic, total douchebag department, Jon Denney.
 

Rovin Romine

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I think DeMarlo Hale would be the manager of the Missed Opportunity Team (or "Miss Topportunity" if you want it to have beauty pageant ring to it). These are the players where you can dream of what might have been. The most tragic ones are Ryan Westmoreland and Tony Conigliaro (I can still see that black eye staring back at me from the Sports Illustrated cover).

Is there enough momentum to do one more list?
LOL - not from me but have at it!
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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I was shocked to see Chico had an 11-year MLB career.
Chico has a crazy B Ref page, with 365 of his 536 games played coming between ages 33-35, after spending the previous two years in the minors.

As someone who grew up going to Paw Sox games, my memory of him is being announced over the PA as "Chi-Co Wal-Ker". After that, it didn't really matter if he did anything.
 

TapeAndPosts

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I was shocked to see Chico had an 11-year MLB career.
11 years and a career WAR of -2.2. Chico played for some bad Cubs teams, a bad Angels team and ended his career with the awful '93 Mets, who went 59-103 and were the only team in history to finish seventh in the NL East. A pretty ignominious trajectory, but at least he got to play baseball.

He is Antoine Walker's uncle, so he's got that going for him.
 

NYCSox

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Schiraldi for at least the disappointment team. Heck you could make a case for Wes Gardner too. And for that matter Bobby Ojeda.

Edit: And then there’s Oil Can Boyd who had crazy potential and while decent was disappointing.
 
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Hank Scorpio

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For all-disappointment catcher (in addition to Dave Valle, whose only job was to back up the mediocre Damon Berryhill and couldn't manage that) I suggest Spanky Macfarlane, whose only Sox season was 1994.

MacFarlane was supposed to fix the 1993 Berryhill/Valle mess. He had some pop and a RH swing made for Fenway. We signed him from KC, where in 1993 he'd posted an .821 OPS. He gave us a .723 OPS in 115 games, then left as a free agent. He resigned with KC in 1995, and, yup, posted a .838 OPS the next year. He must have missed the BBQ.
Nitpick, but Macfarlane's sole year on the Red Sox was 1995, not 1994. It was the first year I followed the Sox religiously.
 

Bernie Carbohydrate

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Nitpick, but Macfarlane's sole year on the Red Sox was 1995, not 1994. It was the first year I followed the Sox religiously.
Not a nitpick, you're right--I had them muddled.

1994 Damon Berryhill backed up by Dave "All Disappointment Starter" Valle

1995 Spanky "Hold On, I'll Disappoint You Too" Macfarlane backed up by the perfectly comulent Bill Haselman

1996 Mike "Pinstripes All The Way" Stanley and Haselman

1997: The Age of Hattieberg Begins

Damn that was a rough run of catchers.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Haven’t read the whole thread, but Hanley x2 is my pick
Why? He actually lived up to his potential. He also netted the Sox Josh Beckett. I can see him being on the all disappointment team but not the all potential team.

edit: Even looking at his minor league career, it was solid. The only thing missing in 2005 was the power and considering he was a 21 year old in AA, that's not too surprising.
 

Cesar Crespo

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You are missing Julio Lugo on your list. I'm assuming anyway, unless you left him off intentionally?

Does Jose Offerman count?

Pokey Reese?
 

TapeAndPosts

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Does Jose Offerman count?
I thought a lot about Offerman. The fanbase at the time didn’t seem to understand he’d been a genuinely good-to-great player for the Dodgers and Royals the previous few years. Duke saying he was replacing Mo Vaughn's OBP didn't help, even though it was a reasonable way to think about it. And he had a decent year for us in 1999, especially offensively, which he didn’t really get credit for.

The problem was after that one year, he couldn’t keep it going. 1999 he was at 2.8 WAR, but he only gave us 2.3 WAR in the remaining three years. His Red Sox total of 5.3 WAR matched what he gave the Royals in 1998 alone, and he had had 12.3 WAR in the four years before he joined us.

So I have to say yes, Offerman was a disappointment, but for different reasons than what the WEEI crowd thought. He wasn’t a bad player who remained bad; he was a genuinely good player who only had one more good year left by the time he got to us. Duquette gets credit for identifying a guy who had performed well, but blew it betting he’d keep it up into his 30s.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Mauricio Lara was supposed to be the next great Sox lefty starter.

He wasn't. Shockingly though, he was still pitching as of last year. I'm not sure if many people remember him because he went as fast as he came. I don't remember him getting injured but maybe he did.

That might be a product of Gammons hype too, but he did have a great rookie year.
 

Humphrey

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Scott Sauerbeck 2003. Was supposed to be the lefty savior out of the pen, caused The Boss to go ballistic when the Yankees didn't pick him up (see below).


"One gets the impression that, in spite of having one
of the best records in baseball, the mood around the
Yankees organization ebbs and flows owing mostly to
small details. Take for instance yesterday's deal
between the Pirates and Red Sox that saw Scott
Sauerbeck going to Boston. The Yankees had some
interest in him and some poor sot in the organization
had to be the one to tell Yankee owner George
Steinbrenner he had gotten away to their hated rivals.
As Bill Madden writes in the New York Daily News, "You
have to believe George Steinbrenner had never even
heard of Sauerbeck until a couple of weeks ago…" Do
you think the underlings draw straws to see who gets
stuck telling Steinbrenner bad news?"
 

Sausage in Section 17

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Not Bob Stanley???
Bob Stanley, who is in the Red Sox Hall of Fame? I don't think so. Maybe he wasn't quite a savior, but he was a stalwart.

edit- And I think it's way too early to be lumping Franchy Cordero in with this ilk. He may get there yet, although I have to say I missed the hype train on him until he couldn't hit his weight.