Betts/Price to LA for Verdugo/Jeter Downs/TBA

Status
Not open for further replies.

LesterFan

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2010
15,219
Boston, MA
View: https://twitter.com/danhayesmlb/status/1225973653805903873?s=21


That kinda reenforces the Red Sox stance imo. Twins are saying “Oh no we wouldn’t give you the #4 ranked guy who’s pitched at lower level, you can have the 3# ranked guy who’s pitched in the majors”

That doesn’t add up at all and just really makes it clear that something is truly up with his medicals.
Those rankings are irrelevant as every team value players/prospects differently and have their own rankings internally.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,122
Those rankings are irrelevant as every team value players/prospects differently and have their own rankings internally.
Just so we are clear. Graterol is a consensus top 3 guy in the Twins system and Balazovic is 6-10. Graterol is ranked higher on the majority of total prospect lists.

The fact Graterol is on the table and Balazovic is off tell you all you need to know about the true value of Graterol. It’s not great.
 

Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2006
6,424
Just so we are clear. Graterol is a consensus top 3 guy in the Twins system and Balazovic is 6-10. Graterol is ranked higher on the majority of total prospect lists.

The fact Graterol is on the table and Balazovic is off tell you all you need to know about the true value of Graterol. It’s not great.
Bostons gripe is probably legitimate. But at the same time all reports are saying they definitely still want him. Who knows?
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
34,126
there's no deadline, but the Sox reportedly wanted the whole Mookie situation resolved by Tuesday the 11th, right? and now we're about to be 3 days away from that.

the longer this goes, I really hope it's more likely it's killed than we cave.
 

DisgruntledSoxFan77

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 12, 2015
1,886
Quincy
It's time to call this trade off. The fact that no team has come up with an acceptable offer after 3 days is all we need to know that we're not being dealt with in good faith
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2006
11,672
The Coney Island of my mind
Just so we are clear. Graterol is a consensus top 3 guy in the Twins system and Balazovic is 6-10. Graterol is ranked higher on the majority of total prospect lists.

The fact Graterol is on the table and Balazovic is off tell you all you need to know about the true value of Graterol. It’s not great.
I'm not clear--is Boston asking for Balazovic instead of Graterol or in addition to Graterol? If the latter, then that's not necessarily a reflection of how they rank the two internally.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,122
The difference between receiving a prospect who has top end starter potential with good reliever downside vs. a prospect who will most likely never start is ENORMOUS. And the fact it looks like the Twins are balking at swapping in a “lower” ranked prospect who actually does have starting potentially is all you need to know. This is obvious now. They tried to get one over on Bloom and he’s calling them on it. Good for him.
 

Green Monster

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,278
CT
Looks bad on the Sox. Take our shit to save yourselves money. Fuck that...
The story leaked while they were discussing potential players. They reviewed the medicals of a top50 prospect and raised their concerns. What exactly looks bad about that?
 

GoDa

New Member
Sep 25, 2017
962
The difference between receiving a prospect who has top end starter potential with good reliever downside vs. a prospect who will most likely never start is ENORMOUS. And the fact it looks like the Twins are balking at swapping in a “lower” ranked prospect who actually does have starting potentially is all you need to know. This is obvious now. They tried to get one over on Bloom and he’s calling them on it. Good for him.
It looks more like Bloom didn't have access to Google and did a really sloppy job putting this trade together. Not a great start.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,773
The difference between receiving a prospect who has top end starter potential with good reliever downside vs. a prospect who will most likely never start is ENORMOUS. And the fact it looks like the Twins are balking at swapping in a “lower” ranked prospect who actually does have starting potentially is all you need to know. This is obvious now. They tried to get one over on Bloom and he’s calling them on it. Good for him.
I disagree, the fact is that Graterol is certainly a good return for an end of the rotation starter on a slightly below market deal (because 4/13 is his base salary, there are incentives for starts and innings pitched that bring him much closer to market rate if he’s a full time starter).

It certainly isn’t a reasonable return for Mookie, however. But, honestly, that’s not their problem, it’s Friedman’s and Bloom’s.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,122
I disagree, the fact is that Graterol is certainly a good return for an end of the rotation starter on a slightly below market deal (because 4/13 is his base salary, there are incentives for starts and innings pitched that bring him much closer to market rate if he’s a full time starter).

It certainly isn’t a reasonable return for Mookie, however. But, honestly, that’s not their problem, it’s Friedman’s and Bloom’s.
You’re missing the point. Graterol in theory is a fantastic return. So much so that it didn’t really make sense at the time this all came out. However, now the Twins are balking at swapping out a lower ranking “starting pitching” prospect.

Basically, the Twins are confirming that Graterol has no chance of being a starter.
 

edoug

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,007
You’re missing the point. Graterol in theory is a fantastic return. So much so that it didn’t really make sense at the time this all came out. However, now the Twins are balking at swapping out a lower ranking “starting pitching” prospect.

Basically, the Twins are confirming that Graterol has no chance of being a starter.
Do not walk away from this... Run!
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,773
You’re missing the point. Graterol in theory is a fantastic return. So much so that it didn’t really make sense at the time this all came out. However, now the Twins are balking at swapping out a lower ranking “starting pitching” prospect.

Basically, the Twins are confirming that Graterol has no chance of being a starter.
The Twins are acquiring an end of the rotation starter. How much do you think those guys are worth? Graterol, apparently, has structural issues that limit him to the role of reliever. But when all you’re getting is a (soon to be) 32 year old 4/5 starter in the deal, a potential relief ace with years of team control is equivalent value.

Now, if you’re the Red Sox, getting an injured OF and a potential relief ace for an MVP level player and a heavily subsidized 3/4 starter is certainly shit value. But, again, that’s not Levine’s problem, he gave adequate value for Maeda. That’s Friedman’s problem because he’s insisting that he only move damaged goods and pitchers on the wrong side of 30 for Betts.
 
Alas, the creative young GM cannot spin gold from straw. Math is math. I'm guessing they took a few minutes to explore the pros and cons of resetting now v. 2021, and looking at how it would need to be done in either year.

I'm not much about blindly believing in the brain trust, but the idea that they didn't think to explore other options before offloading their homegrown superstar is...unlikely.
Ultimately, they preferred not to lower payroll via complex, heavily subsidized deals that wouldn't have brought back cost-controlled talent. But presumably they could have done that, though the subsidies might have been ugly. The creative young GM wouldn't have been able to spin gold from straw, as you say. But--to extend your metaphor--what would the long-term consequences (esp. w/r/t the 2021 reset) have been of spinning copper or tin from straw while also keeping Mookie?
 

PaSox

New Member
Jul 14, 2005
114
Usually my couch
I'm in the shit or get off the pot group. We have to think about where does David Price report this week. How about if Mookie decides to show up early. Where does he go. What happens if this deal isn't finished, and Price shows up, throws one baseball and feels a pop in his elbow? What happens if Mookie turns an ankle taking cuts in the cage? It's either a trade or its not a trade and it needs to be decided real soon.
And how awkward will be that picnic table this week if both Price and Mookie have to show up in Fort Myers. It will make for great TV, but not so much for the organization going forward.
 

Gdiguy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,311
San Diego, CA
It's time to call this trade off. The fact that no team has come up with an acceptable offer after 3 days is all we need to know that we're not being dealt with in good faith
As noted above, though - cursory googling could’ve told the Red Sox that many people already thought his medicals would lead to him being a reliever, much less private info. It’s very possible LA and the Twins have the opposite opinion - that the Sox knew there was medical concerns, made a preliminary deal knowing that, and are now using the (completely unsurprising) poor medical history to try to go back and get a better deal.

I think this is more likely, frankly - if the medicals were really much worse than expected they probably would’ve just tossed in another prospect by now.
 

rajendra82

elimination day disfunction
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
4,937
Atlanta, GA
As noted above, though - cursory googling could’ve told the Red Sox that many people already thought his medicals would lead to him being a reliever, much less private info. It’s very possible LA and the Twins have the opposite opinion - that the Sox knew there was medical concerns, made a preliminary deal knowing that, and are now using the (completely unsurprising) poor medical history to try to go back and get a better deal.

I think this is more likely, frankly - if the medicals were really much worse than expected they probably would’ve just tossed in another prospect by now.
You seem to be saying the Twins and the Dodgers knew more about what the Red Sox knew than the Red Sox did.
 

bosockboy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
20,563
St. Louis, MO
As noted above, though - cursory googling could’ve told the Red Sox that many people already thought his medicals would lead to him being a reliever, much less private info. It’s very possible LA and the Twins have the opposite opinion - that the Sox knew there was medical concerns, made a preliminary deal knowing that, and are now using the (completely unsurprising) poor medical history to try to go back and get a better deal.

I think this is more likely, frankly - if the medicals were really much worse than expected they probably would’ve just tossed in another prospect by now.
If true that’s a slippery slope for Bloom. Bad business for future dealings.
 

DisgruntledSoxFan77

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 12, 2015
1,886
Quincy
I'm willing to give Bloom the benefit of the doubt on this. Prior to the injury Graterol was starting in the minors, and went to the bullpen after coming back, perhaps Bloom saw that he WAS starting and thought he was still capable until he was able to review all the medicals. Maybe this is just me praying we didn't make a mistake but... I don't know man, this is just bizarre
 

amRadio

New Member
Feb 7, 2019
798
This doesn't seem that bizarre. I don't get the "Red Sox look bad" angle. Trades sometimes fall apart because of medicals. If the Sox found out during that stage that the medical reports and trainers notes on Brusdar indicated there were either major structural issues or doubts about his ability to contribute X amount of innings, why would anyone expect the Sox to proceed with damaged goods?
 

effectivelywild

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
468
I'm willing to give Bloom the benefit of the doubt on this. Prior to the injury Graterol was starting in the minors, and went to the bullpen after coming back, perhaps Bloom saw that he WAS starting and thought he was still capable until he was able to review all the medicals. Maybe this is just me praying we didn't make a mistake but... I don't know man, this is just bizarre
I think that the posts that imply that Bloom was completely unaware that Graterol had a history of arm issues are either a. completely disingenuous or b. ignorant of how a front office would work. I know Bloom is new to this post, but does anyone really think that the freaking GM would not GOOGLE a prospect before agreeing to acquire him as a major piece in a trade? C'mon guys. You can be unhappy about the trade, but to imply that the GM agreed to the basics of the trade without doing the equivalence of a Google search shows that you think that he must be a huge idiot. In that case, Tampa Bay must have packed his bags for him.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,773
I’m fairly certain that the Dodgers asked Bloom who would be acceptable from the Twins in a Maeda trade, Bloom gave them that list, and the Twins chose the guy they valued the least off it. After the fact, when Boston’s doctors reviewed the actual medical records they saw something that made Graterol unlikely to be a starter.

The Twins’ position is quite defensible, they’re trading for a 32 year old 4/5 starter, he isn’t worth more than Graterol. This isn’t Levine’s fault, it’s Friedman’s for insisting that he’s only willing to trade damaged goods for an MVP level player and Price on a market rate deal.
 

DisgruntledSoxFan77

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 12, 2015
1,886
Quincy
This doesn't seem that bizarre. I don't get the "Red Sox look bad" angle. Trades sometimes fall apart because of medicals. If the Sox found out during that stage that the medical reports and trainers notes on Brusdar indicated there were either major structural issues or doubts about his ability to contribute X amount of innings, why would anyone expect the Sox to proceed with damaged goods?
Unfortunately that sounds like the narrative people are trying to make. Either way I just want this over, one way or another
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
72,158
I think that the posts that imply that Bloom was completely unaware that Graterol had a history of arm issues are either a. completely disingenuous or b. ignorant of how a front office would work. I know Bloom is new to this post, but does anyone really think that the freaking GM would not GOOGLE a prospect before agreeing to acquire him as a major piece in a trade? C'mon guys. You can be unhappy about the trade, but to imply that the GM agreed to the basics of the trade without doing the equivalence of a Google search shows that you think that he must be a huge idiot. In that case, Tampa Bay must have packed his bags for him.
The best possible spin one can put on this (IMO obv) is that Bloom/BOS thought that they knew better about Graterol's future potential than MIN, who publicly announced two weeks ago that he would be a reliever for them going forward. Conceivably one could argue that was to have him help sooner and better match their timetable, but realistically MIN is as desperate for top of the rotation SPs as any contender and so even if it meant waiting a few years, if MIN thought he could possibly be a top of the rotation guy, it seems unlikely they would move him to the pen instead of just stretching him out.

I'd guess this hinges a bit on what Bloom asked MIN about Graterol while they were still discussing it, if he asked 'why did you decide to move him to reliever fulltime?' and got an answer that immediately looked like a lie when he saw the medicals, then I get BOS's irritation. I don't get the part where Graterol then potentially stays in the deal, but presumably we'll hear more specifics once it is done.
 

teddywingman

Looks like Zach Galifianakis
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2009
11,453
a basement on the hill
In my lifetime, there have been three or four players that justified my enjoyment and love for watching the Boston Red Sox. None of the others were homegrown, and none of them exhibited the joy that Mookie Betts has on the field.

I am done watching baseball now. Time to focus on something more productive in my own life.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
In my lifetime, there have been three or four players that justified my enjoyment and love for watching the Boston Red Sox. None of the others were homegrown, and none of them exhibited the joy that Mookie Betts has on the field.

I am done watching baseball now. Time to focus on something more productive in my own life.
I was done watching baseball three months ago, and I will NOT be back for about another few weeks.
 

bosockboy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
20,563
St. Louis, MO
In my lifetime, there have been three or four players that justified my enjoyment and love for watching the Boston Red Sox. None of the others were homegrown, and none of them exhibited the joy that Mookie Betts has on the field.

I am done watching baseball now. Time to focus on something more productive in my own life.
So if they get off to a 25-5 start you’re still out?
 

OCD SS

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I think the idea of a "cursory Google" search telling you all you need to know about Graterol's medicals looks a lot different from the other side of professional curtain. What teams know and think is based on a lot more direct information than the anonymous sourcing even the best prospect coverage gets. I assume that the number of times professionals see our half-baked internet opinions are think "if they only knew" are too numerous to count...The only way it's reasonable to assume that what can be found on Google should have killed the trade at the table is if you're a fan who doesn't want to see a homegrown super-star leave for budgetary reasons.

I'd guess this hinges a bit on what Bloom asked MIN about Graterol while they were still discussing it, if he asked 'why did you decide to move him to reliever fulltime?' and got an answer that immediately looked like a lie when he saw the medicals, then I get BOS's irritation. I don't get the part where Graterol then potentially stays in the deal, but presumably we'll hear more specifics once it is done.
Did MN. say they were moving him to the bullpen permanently, or just now? That can be as easy as we need his FB out of the 'pen now while we're going all in on the AL Central, and can't wait for him to build up his innings as a starter... the route to the starting rotation coming out of the pen has a long history, and it's probably going to get more common in the age of the opener. Bloom could've seen deploying him as an opener now and building his innings in Fenway for a few years, but not realized that's a lot less likely to happen without seeing the results of the physical and actual medicals. Which are definitely not on Google.
 

j44thor

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
11,207
I’m fairly certain that the Dodgers asked Bloom who would be acceptable from the Twins in a Maeda trade, Bloom gave them that list, and the Twins chose the guy they valued the least off it. After the fact, when Boston’s doctors reviewed the actual medical records they saw something that made Graterol unlikely to be a starter.

The Twins’ position is quite defensible, they’re trading for a 32 year old 4/5 starter, he isn’t worth more than Graterol. This isn’t Levine’s fault, it’s Friedman’s for insisting that he’s only willing to trade damaged goods for an MVP level player and Price on a market rate deal.
You keep saying this as if it is fact. Established back of the rotation starters on market friendly deals are still more valuable than a prospect whose ceiling is relief ace.
Relief ace prospects are pretty fungible in the minors with very few exceptions. It would be different if Graterol was a true relief ace due to having 2 unbelievable pitches but not enough to become a starter. That he can't start because of physical concerns dings him significantly.
 

dano7594

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
106
Cart before the horse, but suppose this does fall through what direction do they go:
1. One more year above the CBT
2. Find another trade partner
3. Play it out until July then unload enough money to drop below the CBT if they are not in playoff race
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2006
11,672
The Coney Island of my mind
Ultimately, they preferred not to lower payroll via complex, heavily subsidized deals that wouldn't have brought back cost-controlled talent. But presumably they could have done that, though the subsidies might have been ugly. The creative young GM wouldn't have been able to spin gold from straw, as you say. But--to extend your metaphor--what would the long-term consequences (esp. w/r/t the 2021 reset) have been of spinning copper or tin from straw while also keeping Mookie?
Take a look at the spreadsheet over at Cot's. They've been shopping Price and this was the best they could do with him. Who else on the 40 man are candidates for "complex, heavily subsidized deals" that get them to $208 (keeping in mind they have to pay, you know 40 guys). Show your work--who, how much, and who's buying?

You're pissed about the trade. That's reasonable. Casting Bloom as lazy or incompetent because he couldn't pull off keeping Betts after being told to slash salary isn't. Other teams don't view themselves as being in business to help the Mighty Red Sox unshit the bed.
 

InsideTheParker

persists in error
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
41,048
Pioneer Valley
In my lifetime, there have been three or four players that justified my enjoyment and love for watching the Boston Red Sox. None of the others were homegrown, and none of them exhibited the joy that Mookie Betts has on the field.

I am done watching baseball now. Time to focus on something more productive in my own life.
I don't mean to be rude, but I get it. You have said this how many times now?
To repeat my attitude: not buying tickets, but will watch on the telly until it's more painful than fun. I wonder if you take a peek now and again?
 

CR67dream

blue devils forevah!
Dope
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
7,600
I'm going home
In my lifetime, there have been three or four players that justified my enjoyment and love for watching the Boston Red Sox. None of the others were homegrown, and none of them exhibited the joy that Mookie Betts has on the field.

I am done watching baseball now. Time to focus on something more productive in my own life.
We get it. You don't have to tell us again. All the best in your new-found productivity!
 

thestardawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2005
917
Section 38, Row 13
Their best bet at this point is getting a mid range prospect from the twins in addition to Graterol. Ask the Twins for Brent Rooker or Nick Gordon, both who could possibly fill slots in Boston for 2020, or ask for a lottery ticket like Keoni Cavaco
 

AlexCorasFilmRoom

New Member
Jan 31, 2020
69
Their best bet at this point is getting a mid range prospect from the twins in addition to Graterol. Ask the Twins for Brent Rooker or Nick Gordon, both who could possibly fill slots in Boston for 2020, or ask for a lottery ticket like Keoni Cavaco
Rooker or Gordon would be kind of cool I guess. Duran, Urbina, Enlow would be fine as well.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,807
Santa Monica, CA
If true that’s a slippery slope for Bloom. Bad business for future dealings.
The Red Sox aren't expected to give final approval for a trade based on google search result medical history. This delay/possible withdrawal is the whole reason they get the chance to examine the guy's actual medical history before completing the deal.
 

amRadio

New Member
Feb 7, 2019
798
Without knowing the extent of what spooked them in the medicals, I don't know how people can say they should take a mid-level prospect in addition to Graterol. They should not take less value than they were originally seeking just because one of the pieces didn't pass inspection. Back to the house analogy - that's like being in the market for a 3 bed and when the inspection falls through your realtor starts showing you studio apartments. Get the value you were originally seeking or don't pull the trigger. There is no reason to help other teams win, just as they're not obligated to help us from under our luxury tax predicament.

I feel like if the Red Sox were of a mind to take less this deal would have been done yesterday. Maybe we made our bed CBT-wise and are about to lie in it.

edited for clarity
 
Status
Not open for further replies.