Cashman's Cano Contract Conundrum

koufax32

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I'll need to do some digging on Cots but my first reaction is that there's no way they could succeed in getting under 189.
I'm at school so I can't go copying and pasting here. If someone would like to add more numbers that would be great.

Tex - 24 mil
Cano - 24 mil (let's just assume here)
CI - 9 mil (his player option)
Nunez - 500k
OF
OF
OF

Sabathia - 24 mil
Kuroda - 15 mil (assuming he does another 1 year with them)
Nova - 500k
SP
SP

Bullpen

Bench

Just that quick math adds to around 100 mil on a small handful of players. When you start plugging in other FA names like Choo, etc. the math just doesn't add up. What am I misunderstanding here?
 

LeoCarrillo

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Well, their outfield is largely subsidized and will cost about $15m altogether. Ichiro 6.5m, Wells is paid by LAA and only costs like $1m, Soriano only costs the Yankees $4m and Gardner is in arb so maybe like $4m.

That's huge. They have $100m coming off. It can be done under $189m. Not saying their getting Choo.
 

LondonSox

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The shocking run of disastrous big long contracts has to be a factor here.
Hamilton, pujols, Kemp, Crawford, a rod, sabathia etc. I mean there are a lot of horrible contracts around.
No one is paying him 10 years. 7-8 maybe but the value per year could be very high, there are not a ton of good 2b around and baseball is making a shit ton of money.

It's really interesting though, if cano leaves the best player on the Yankees is.... Yeah exactly.
They need a plan. Are they ready to blow it up? There is no farm to build off, so a blow it up would like be several years. Plus more and more players are signed pre free agency for smaller teams, and are hitting free agency post peak if at all. Plus the Yankees are not the only money in town. Building a team from scratch in free agency will be crazy expensive and only a few mistakes could see them right back here again in a couple years.

They have to start over on the draft and farm. Whatever they are doing is not working and now they have lost the ability to spend their way out.
The wave of the Cuban defectors is perhaps their best chance as this is just money, not lost picks etc. Plus they come cheaper but with more risk.

I am so interested to see what they do. It's not unthinkable to miss out on Cano, to need a new manager, a rod to be suspended all year and they will either need to pay a fortune to be average or get below the cap and be horrendous.
 

jon abbey

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If he leaves, the best player is Alfonso Soriano, who will be 38, but who has played like a MVP since NY got him. He has 25 HRs since July 1, he has been pretty solid in the field and he has even stolen some big bases at times to help win games, looking surprisingly athletic all around for a guy his age. Also, he is a ticket draw for NY because of his first stint here, Yankee fans love him. He's only under contract for one more year and who their best player in 2015 would be is a big question, but also they'll presumably have a ton of money to spend then. 
 

Sampo Gida

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The Yankees have already stated that they will go over 189 million if needed to field a championship quality team, maybe they lie, but that's what they say.  That does not mean signing Cano to crazy money.  I think Yankee fans would support letting Cano walk at that asking price.
 
 
The Yankees have never been bothered by the luxury tax in the past, and while this years tax is 29 million at the 50% rate, their previous high was 25 million at 40%.  Revenue potential is higher than ever, so there is no financial necessity to be under 189 million, and fielding a  dog of a team will cost them revenues. If you assume a drop in attendance of 1 million, that's 50 million there, and double that at least for lost merchandise sales, concessions, ratings drop at YES etc.  Obviously, it nice to be under 189 million to save on tax, salary and collect revenue sharing rebates but you need a competitive team to sustain revenues for these savings to do the bottom line any good.
 
 
As for the cost to field a competitive team in 2014.  Look at the Red Sox.  They have exactly 3 home grown players in the starting lineup this year, and 3 starting pitchers,  The rest of the starting players on the team opening day were acquired via free agency except Salty who was acquired via trade for nothing much, many of the free agents were signed last offseason.   There are a number of reasonably priced free agents this year who won't require 5 years or 100 million.  Napoli, Cruz, Peralta, Drew, Feldman. Colon, Granderson, Pierzynski, Salty, etc who could fill holes and with Cano gone (asking 300 million is absurd and you can't wait till January to rebuild a team).  Not saying who they should sign here, just that there are always guys who can give you league average or better for reasonable money .  You don't have to chase the stars to build a team.  Of course, there is an element of luck in the reasonably priced signings working out.  Injuries and age related decline that exceeds projections are risks that exist for any signing.
 
 
One thing for sure though, any team with Wells and Ichiro in the lineup is doomed to fail.  DFA these 2 washed up has-beens pronto.  Obviously, the Yankees have to hope Teixeira, Soriano, Gardner and CC, Pineda, Nova are healthy and good next year, and Jeter has to move to 3B while Arod is out, and then fill some holes with reasonably priced free agents.  Maybe they bring back Reynolds as insurance at 1B, 3B and DH depending on who else they pick up in free agency.
 
The bars pretty low for the playoffs, 90 W's, it does not take much to get there, they almost did it this year before running out of gas.
 

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I think they're ok with an outfileld of Ichiro, Gardner, Wells and Soriano.  It's not ideal, but they can get by.  They've got young outfielders coming up, and I don't see them paying long-term for a FA outfielder.
 
IMHO they need to rebuild their pitching staff, which was very disappointing during the last 1/3 of the season.  Chamberlain, Hughes, Pettitte and Rivera are gone.  Kuroda is probably gone.  They're paying Sabathia like a #1 but he didn't pitch like one.
 
The only bright spots were Nova and possibly Robertson.  Logan was ok, and They've got some young guys (Claiborne, Kelly, Marshall, Phelps. Warren, etc.) but who knows about them long-term?  IMHO they need to add at least one quality starter to have a chance at 90 wins.
 
As for Cano. I think he signs for roughly Teixiera money, whether it's in NY or elsewhere.
 

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Brickowski said:
I think they're ok with an outfileld of Ichiro, Gardner, Wells and Soriano.  It's not ideal, but they can get by.  They've got young outfielders coming up, and I don't see them paying long-term for a FA outfielder.
 
This would be the worst outfield in franchise history.
 
Oops, just saw Ichiro, Gardner and Wells. With Soriano in there it goes from historically bad to just really really bad.
 

LeoCarrillo

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C'mon. Gardner is good. And if they come out of the gates pitching well (is Pineda close to healthy?) they can be as good as this season. For under 189.
 

Meff Nelton

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Gardner's a very good player, Soriano will be useful though definitely not as good as he has been in the second half. But giving 800-1000 at bats to these two guys
 
.237/.285/.354, 70 wRC+
.260/.295/.341, 72 wRC+
 
would kill the team. Ichiro and Wells are horrible baseball players.Truly awful. They need to be cut or traded or sacrificed.
 

JimD

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LeoCarrillo said:
C'mon. Gardner is good. And if they come out of the gates pitching well (is Pineda close to healthy?) they can be as good as this season. For under 189.
The Yankees are almost 13 games over their 3rd-order pythag expectations, by far the highest in baseball this season. I'd be very wary of just patching a few holes and expecting a repeat contending performance next year.
 

Sampo Gida

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JimD said:
The Yankees are almost 13 games over their 3rd-order pythag expectations, by far the highest in baseball this season. I'd be very wary of just patching a few holes and expecting a repeat contending performance next year.
 
The Red Sox and Indians exceeded their 2012 pythags by 26 and 25 games respectively in 2013.  Better health (Tex, Jeter, Granderson-if he returns, Gardner),  improved performance approaching career numbers (CC) and patching holes effectively with the money saved from suspensions, retirements and lost players in free agency, and perhaps a healthy Pineda,  and who knows?   
 

TomRicardo

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Sampo Gida said:
 
 
The Red Sox just signed a bunch of over 30+ FA with to deals up to 3/39 and it worked out well.  Most of the players I listed should be available for 3 years or less except Garza, Salty, McCann, and most of them will be available at 15 million or less per year.
 
Yankees have lived with the luxury tax forever.  Revenue sharing rebates are probably the main motivation to cut payroll.  Their post revenue sharing revenues are double the average MLB team plus they have YES revenues which are not counted or shared, so they can afford it.
 
But the Red Sox still had at their core a solid group of players and had a ton of talent in their farm system.
 
The Yankees don't have anything in AAA.
 

TomRicardo

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Sampo Gida said:
As for the cost to field a competitive team in 2014.  Look at the Red Sox.  They have exactly 3 home grown players in the starting lineup this year, and 3 starting pitchers, 
The bars pretty low for the playoffs, 90 W's, it does not take much to get there, they almost did it this year before running out of gas.
 
How are you counting home grown?  Ellsbury. Pedroia, and Nava? Are you not counting Middlebrooks?  3B was covered by home grown players all year. 
 
The Yankees once again have several impediments to copying the Red Sox strategy.
 

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TomRicardo said:
 
But the Red Sox still had at their core a solid group of players and had a ton of talent in their farm system.
 
The Yankees don't have anything in AAA.
 
Exactly, and the Indians are irrelevant unless the Yankees will get to play a shitty AL Central schedule next year.
 

Sampo Gida

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TomRicardo said:
 
How are you counting home grown?  Ellsbury. Pedroia, and Nava? Are you not counting Middlebrooks?  3B was covered by home grown players all year. 
 
The Yankees once again have several impediments to copying the Red Sox strategy.
 
WMB, Ellsbury and Pedroia are homegrown.  Iglesias of course filled in for WMB but he is gone.
 
Nava was a 25 yo free agent pickup from an independent league.  Not sure that qualifies, in any event, he has been used as a platoon player for most of the year and I was referring to full time starters.
 
as for the impediments . The farm system is more of a 2014 thing, it helped a bit in 2013, mainly Iglesias, but was not a critical factor in the teams 2013 success which was fueled by bringing in 30+ yo free agents and the health of veterans injured in 2012. 
 
The Yankees can duplicate what the Red Sox have done for 2014 without a deep farm system, if they spend the money.    As for the core, the Red Sox core had uncertainties as well, Ellsbury, Papi and his achilles, Salty and his awful 2nd halfs.  Pedroia was the only certainty for 2013.  Yankees have a weaker core without Cano, but with Cano its not much weaker..
 

Sampo Gida

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jon abbey said:
 
Exactly, and the Indians are irrelevant unless the Yankees will get to play a shitty AL Central schedule next year.
 
The point on the Indians was the magnitude of their improvement. They had the same shitty schedule last year, but managed to improve by 24 W's against the same shitty schedule this year.
 
Actually, the Astros probably improved every AL team by a couple of runs, so call it a 22 W improvement
 

jon abbey

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They went 17-2 against the White Sox, the only reason they're still playing. 
 

jon abbey

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Sounds like they beat up a team they were supposed to beat. How is different from the A's beating up Houston?
 
The A's were 81-62 without the Houston games, CLE was 75-68 without the White Sox games (62-62 without CWS and MIN).
 
HOU, CWS and MIN all being dreadful really skewed the strength of schedules in the AL this year, but this is all way way off topic for this thread.
 

Sampo Gida

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The Tigers and AL East cleaned the Indians clock.  They were a combined 16-36 against them. 
 

bankshot1

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Heard Cashman with Francesa today: to my ear it sounded like the $189MM handcuffs off, they will likely be be in the market for 3 FA starters, want Kuroda back and will be aggressive on Cano.
 

jon abbey

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The phrase he evidently repeatedly used about the $189M was "it's a goal, not a mandate." I'll be stunned if they go over at this point, it made sense to ditch the plan last winter but much less now.
 
Also, I highly doubt they'll be going after three FA SPs (assuming that's what you meant by starters). They have Nova, Sabathia, plus Phelps, Warren, and Pineda, who was evidently totally healthy when they shut him down late in the year, just because they thought he'd worked enough. I would say they'll try to add two SPs to that, one if Kuroda comes back (which I also doubt). 
 
So, yeah, I don't believe any of that, unless $160M or so qualifies as being aggressive on Cano. 
 
http://riveraveblues.com/2013/10/cashmans-press-conference-recap-girardi-cano-a-rod-sabathia-luxury-tax-more-94960/
 

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If Cashman were being fully honest, here's a guess at how that might have gone...
 
"Hi, Brian!"
"Hi, Mike. Not sure why I'm here, as you've pretty much become a joke and a parody of what you used to be, but here I am, so let's get it going."
"Oh, so it's going to be like that? OK. So your team really screwed the pooch this year, huh?"
"They did but we always expected that. We didn't expect to compete this year and certainly not in 2014, still not sure how we won 85 games."
"Well, it certainly wasn't due to your letting Martin and Ibanez go when you could have kept them both for around $10M. Feel good about choosing Hafner over Ibanez now?"
"No, that was clearly idiotic from the moment I did it. Honestly I had a bad hangover that morning and thought I asked Raul to stay, but turns out I asked him to leave. Of course I never would have done that if I'd been sober, the guy was a postseason hero last year, a perfect fit for our park, and was cheap."
"Good, at least you're being honest. So what about this $189M cap? Are you definitely going to stick to that?"
"Yeah, my hands are basically tied on that. The Steinbrenner boys want to maximize franchise value so they can get out before too long."
"Interesting. What about starting pitchers?"
"Well, Nova was a nice surprise, although we did our best to bury him in AAA. Also we're locked into the decaying CC, so that's two spots. We'll probably sign one or two cheap journeymen to compete with Pineda and Phelps and Warren for the other spots."
"How about Kuroda? You want him back?"
"(stifles giggle) Yeah, a 39 year old who absolutely collapsed down the stretch and will command an eight figure deal is a really high priority for a team on a strict budget. Do the math, fat boy."
"Probably wise. What about Cano?"
"Man, who knows. We'll probably set a maximum figure in the $160M-$180M range and tell him if he gets a better deal than that and he wants to leave, good luck to him. We're not competing next year with or without him. Just don't tell the fans, we're hoping to raise our prices again next year (does not try to stifle giggle)."
 

Sampo Gida

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Yeah, wait until the Steinbrenners get the projections for 2014 from the financial and marketing departments in their budget meetings .    A revenue drop of what?????  And we save what????? Whose fucking plan is this.?!?!! 
 
I always thought a key part of the plan was being able to make the post season in 2013 to give them a buffer for a lost season in 2014.  That did not happen obviously.
 
I guess all we can do is wait and see. 
 

bankshot1

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The #s for YES came in and viewership was down about 31% in '13. 
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/sports/baseball/a-season-of-goodbyes-by-yes-viewers.html?ref=baseball

 
The Yankees’ 85-77 record prevented them from making the American League playoffs. A disappointment, yes, but grounds to shun them? No.
 
Yet a staggering 111,000 viewers disappeared from the Yankees’ telecasts for each game on the YES Network, leaving an average of 244,000 devoted souls to watch. That 31.2 percent plunge suggests deep dissatisfaction with a team that played most of the season without many of its stars and fielded lineups filled with the likes of Zoilo Almonte, Luis Cruz, David Huff and Brennan Boesch.
 
 
 
A look at Yankees viewership since 2007 shows a troubling trend that did not start with this year’s disappointing finish. There were 454,000 viewers six years ago, but 210,000 — nearly half — have since departed.
Part of that drop might be attributable to fans being bored with winning and the empire slowly fraying. Some fans might have switched to watching on laptops and mobile devices; that use is not measured by Nielsen. There could be a quirk in the way Nielsen measures television viewing. Or fans might be watching less of each game, which reduces viewership.
 

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bankshot1 said:
I'm paraphrasing the guy who said he wasn't in on Damon, so believe what you like.
 
 
Exactly. When it comes to the free agent market, never believe a thing Cashman says. Hell, he isn't even the one making the decisions half the time now.
 

glennhoffmania

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From Bankshot's post, I love this line:
 
Part of that drop might be attributable to fans being bored with winning and the empire slowly fraying
 
Yeah, nothing causes fans to stop watching their favorite team like winning.  If that's the case I'm confused about why viewership wouldn't have skyrocketed in 2008 and 2013.
 

NYCSox

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I kind of like this one too.
 
 
That 31.2 percent plunge suggests deep dissatisfaction with a team that played most of the season without many of its stars and fielded lineups filled with the likes of Zoilo Almonte, Luis Cruz, David Huff and Brennan Boesch.
 
Must be really disheartening to not have a six time All Star at every position. Boo effing hoo.
 

bankshot1

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As noted up thread, the Yankees have to be concerned with selling seats (and all the associated stuff, parking, beers etc) and YES advertising. Since moving to the new place attendance is down from about 3.67 million in 2009 (about 45,400 per game) to 3.27 million (40,500) in '13. (and 4.3 million and about 53,100 per in the old place in '08).
 
Attendance popped about 90,000 after the '09 WS, but its been in steady decline since then. Now we can blame the local economy for some of the game day attendance, but TV is mostly free and one could expect that fans might substitute it for the expense of a ticket. But that doesn't seem to be happening either. 
 
The brain-trust (the Steinbrenners, Fox/YES, Levine, Trost, and Cashman) probably understand the allure of stars, both old and new, along with the expectation of championship potential to stabilize and eventually reverse the trends.  
 

jon abbey

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That's where I think Soriano helps them a lot for 2014, like I said. Even casual fans recognize his name and remember him fondly, and so Cano doesn't have as much leverage in that dept, at least for 2014. 
 
Joel Sherman, who usually knows what he's talking about, wrote in an article yesterday or today that NY expected to save $60M in 2014 if they can stay under $189M, plus of course the big savings they'd get from the reset tax rate in future years. I don't know if that number is accurate, but it is probably at least the number that Yankee management believes to be the case currently. 
 

jon abbey

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Also I'm sure ticket prices on average for NY have gone way up since 2008, it'd be interesting to see total ticket revenues year by year, but pretty sure those numbers aren't reported anywhere.
 

Sampo Gida

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bankshot1 said:
As noted up thread, the Yankees have to be concerned with selling seats (and all the associated stuff, parking, beers etc) and YES advertising. Since moving to the new place attendance is down from about 3.67 million in 2009 (about 45,400 per game) to 3.27 million (40,500) in '13. (and 4.3 million and about 53,100 per in the old place in '08).
 
Attendance popped about 90,000 after the '09 WS, but its been in steady decline since then. Now we can blame the local economy for some of the game day attendance, but TV is mostly free and one could expect that fans might substitute it for the expense of a ticket. But that doesn't seem to be happening either. 
 
The brain-trust (the Steinbrenners, Fox/YES, Levine, Trost, and Cashman) probably understand the allure of stars, both old and new, along with the expectation of championship potential to stabilize and eventually reverse the trends.  
 
Some of the attendance drop may have been attributed to price increases at the new stadium.  And while ratings drop at YES are a concern, the Yankees deal with News Corp just paid them 450 million just to extend the rights to Yankees broadcasts like forever, and the deal will cut their ownership from 34%  to 25% at some point as Newscorp exercises its right to purchase additional shares.  Its not like they own 80% of the revenue at YES like the Red Sox do at NESN.  Not that the revenue from sponsors is insignificant, just not as important to the Yankees as it is to the Red Sox.
 
Losing for a year or two like the Red Sox may be a way to energize a fan base made apathetic from years of winning and being the upperdawg, and competing with other teams on the same terms by keeping the payroll under the threshold may also help to this end. However,  given the state of the farm system I do not endorse this approach since 1-2 years can easily become much longer..
 

bankshot1

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jon abbey said:
Also I'm sure ticket prices on average for NY have gone way up since 2008, it'd be interesting to see total ticket revenues year by year, but pretty sure those numbers aren't reported anywhere.
Ticket prices as reported went up significantly in 2009, but as the economic crisis hit, I think it fair to assume prices from 2010 to current day have probably been flat. When combined with attendance down about 400,000, I think it safe to conclude the revenues from the ticket sales are most likely down 2010-2013. 
 

bankshot1

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Sampo Gida said:
 
Some of the attendance drop may have been attributed to price increases at the new stadium.  And while ratings drop at YES are a concern, the Yankees deal with News Corp just paid them 450 million just to extend the rights to Yankees broadcasts like forever, and the deal will cut their ownership from 34%  to 25% at some point as Newscorp exercises its right to purchase additional shares.  Its not like they own 80% of the revenue at YES like the Red Sox do at NESN.  Not that the revenue from sponsors is insignificant, just not as important to the Yankees as it is to the Red Sox.
 
Losing for a year or two like the Red Sox may be a way to energize a fan base made apathetic from years of winning and being the upperdawg, and competing with other teams on the same terms by keeping the payroll under the threshold may also help to this end. However,  given the state of the farm system I do not endorse this approach since 1-2 years can easily become much longer..
To believe that if the Yankees do not use their financial advantage to restock the team they will still somehow rekindle fan interest seems somewhat far-fetched. Winning attracts fans, their loyalty and their money. The risk to the Yankees is that while they retool on a level financial playing field (will never happen) the Mets with a young and skilled starting rotation, steal market share as they are viewed as real under-dog and with ticket prices that are viewed as more fan friendly, and in a nice ballpark.  
 
The News Corp/YES deal adds complication in that News Corp has no say in the product. But my guess is that some discussions about product quality take place, as no one at YES or News Corp or the Yankees can be happy with a 31% decline in viewers. 
 
 While a swing in the market may seem far-fetched, NYC was a Mets hot-bed in the 80s, and the Yankees may have to re-invest at a higher rate for '14 than originally anticipated last year, to protect the brand.
 

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bankshot1 said:
To believe that if the Yankees do not use their financial advantage to restock the team they will still somehow rekindle fan interest seems somewhat far-fetched. Winning attracts fans, their loyalty and their money. The risk to the Yankees is that while they retool on a level financial playing field (will never happen) the Mets with a young and skilled starting rotation, steal market share as they are viewed as real under-dog and with ticket prices that are viewed as more fan friendly, and in a nice ballpark.  
 
The News Corp/YES deal adds complication in that News Corp has no say in the product. But my guess is that some discussions about product quality take place, as no one at YES or News Corp or the Yankees can be happy with a 31% decline in viewers. 
 
 While a swing in the market may seem far-fetched, NYC was a Mets hot-bed in the 80s, and the Yankees may have to re-invest at a higher rate for '14 than originally anticipated last year, to protect the brand.
 
I have to disagree with the bolded section.  For example, interest in the Red Sox started waning after the 2007 championship season while they were still winning in the regular season.
 
Here is a 2009 article on the subject.
 
http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/massarotti/2009/10/root_root_root_for_new_york.html
 


 
Last year, during a season immediately following a world title, local television ratings for Red Sox broadcasts on NESN dropped nearly 20 percent. This year, they dropped an additional seven percent. The Sox are producing fewer golden eggs than they have at perhaps any other point during the era of John Henry’s ownership, which cannot help but make you wonder if the Sox need a crisis the way a depressed nation might need a war.
 
 
Certainly, fans stay away in droves when the losing begins, but winning "every year" can get old for some fans.  Just saying it's not always a bad thing to lose for a short time to make fans appreciate winning even more and not take it for granted, assuming the winning ways restart in short order (2-3 years tops).
 
I do agree the Yankees can not hope to compete in the short term without spending given the state of their farm system and age and quality of their core players, so this option is not viable IMO.
 
Management has been very clear that 189 is a goal and not a mandate and that they will go over to field a championship quality team.  Whether they are lying or not I have no idea. .  Cano of course is a huge test for them.  30/300 should be rejected for the long term implications while something in the area of 7/175 with a vesting option for an 8th year at the same AAV makes sense for the short term and long term.  Being able to walk away from a popular home grown talent and go after more viable free agents price wise and who offer a decent probability of being productive players (above average, but short of elite) beyond that of a roll of the dice is a challenge.
 

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Sampo Gida said:
 
I have to disagree with the bolded section.  For example, interest in the Red Sox started waning after the 2007 championship season while they were still winning in the regular season.
 
Here is a 2009 article on the subject.
 
http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/massarotti/2009/10/root_root_root_for_new_york.html
 
 
 
 
Certainly, fans stay away in droves when the losing begins, but winning "every year" can get old for some fans.  Just saying it's not always a bad thing to lose for a short time to make fans appreciate winning even more and not take it for granted, assuming the winning ways restart in short order (2-3 years tops).
 
I do agree the Yankees can not hope to compete in the short term without spending given the state of their farm system and age and quality of their core players, so this option is not viable IMO.
 
Management has been very clear that 189 is a goal and not a mandate and that they will go over to field a championship quality team.  Whether they are lying or not I have no idea. .  Cano of course is a huge test for them.  30/300 should be rejected for the long term implications while something in the area of 7/175 with a vesting option for an 8th year at the same AAV makes sense for the short term and long term.  Being able to walk away from a popular home grown talent and go after more viable free agents price wise and who offer a decent probability of being productive players (above average, but short of elite) beyond that of a roll of the dice is a challenge.
I think we agree on the larger point (bolded above) that given the state of the current team, and the apparent lack of quick fixes on the farm, that the FA market seems to be the most viable option for the Yankees to quickly return to their winning ways, and selling eyeballs either at the stadium or on TV. I do reject the idea that if the Yankees adopt a level playing field financial strategy, spontaneous combustion will take place. IMO it seems the $189 million budget goal, which was questioned in the opening post, seems in jeopardy.  
 
As to the Red Sox, while somewhat off-topic it should be recalled that in response to softening demand post 2007 (TV ratings, the "sell-outs" continued until 2012) , they made some fairly dramatic FA moves, which both enthused and pissed off different parts of the fan base. While the moves ultimately were repudiated by the Sox, one can not blame them for complacency. The Yankees are smart, and have the resources, and I do not believe that in the face of obvious on-field needs, a significant weakening of demand, and a younger and hungrier competitor cross-town, they will be complacent either. 
 

EvilEmpire

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Whether or not they go over $189 million depends in large part who there is to sign.  They have quite a few holes and quality FAs are locked up younger and younger.  If they indulge in more long contracts to players on the wrong side of 30 just to put butts in seats and chase after WC games in the short term, they sure as hell are going to have a rough time sustaining success even if their payroll is huge.  Those contracts will be millstones around their necks too.  Now seems to be the time to make a transition and try to gain some roster flexibility down the road.  Expectations are low -- the core players that have had the most success in pinstripes are almost gone.  I don't think it is a coincidence that many of them are/were homegrown.  Bottom line, I'd rather not have the Yankees increase expectations too much by signing too many big contracts if all it does is delay an inevitable bottoming out a few years later. It seems like it will take more than a few guys to put the team over the top beyond a WC game win or two.  The worst case scenario is that they take on even more payroll, lose more roster flexibility, and still don't win a damn thing.
 
I can't take another situation like the post-Ewing Knicks. 
 

jon abbey

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They're not going to go over $189M and they're going to suck next year. People should vote with their wallets and stop buying tickets to games until they put a product on the field worth watching again. That was not the case this year, with occasional exceptions.
 

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Steinbrenner's people said Tuesday the team's "serious goal" is to have the payroll fall beneath the $189 million threshold so the Yankees' luxury-tax rate is significantly reduced. If A-Rod is suspended, a source told ESPNNewYork.com the Yankees could re-sign Cano and possibly someone like Atlanta Braves catcher Brian McCann. If A-Rod's money is still on the books, it would be virtually impossible to sign Cano and another big-money free agent and stay under $189 million.
 
Steinbrenner said fielding a championship team will ultimately trump the luxury tax when making final decisions.
In initial talks with the Yankees, sources said Cano asked for a 10-year deal in excess of $300 million.
 
"I don't feel this organization is ready to do something like that," Steinbrenner said Tuesday on "The Michael Kay Show" on ESPN New York 98.7 FM. "No, I do not.
 
"We'll see. I know that is a number that is out there now. We'll see if he gets it, how much he wants to be in New York. But, again, I can promise it is going to be a very, very solid offer that we do make because we are going to try. We are going to try the best we can to keep him."
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/9793441/robinson-cano-get-solid-offer-new-york-yankees-not-10-years-says-hal-steinbrenner
 

Sampo Gida

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If Steinbrenner has not already flushed the "goal" down the toilet in the face of what is obvious to everyone, that they will suck next year without maintaining the payroll close to what it is, then JA is right.
 
The fact it sounds like he is going to take a wait and see approach to Arod and Cano to see how much money they can spend is just so much BS, since by the time late Dec and January roll around, the pickings would be slim, so even if he wanted to spend they would have the excuse there is not much to spend on.   He should make the offer to Cano, a very fair one, and should already have made it actually, and tell him come Nov 15 it's off the table.  He should also assume a 100 game suspension for Arod +/- 35.  If Arod gets off scott free he can hire leg breakers and collect the insurance.
 
I think if Girardi does jump ship, in part it will be because he knows whats coming.
 
Business wise it seems dumb.  The only thing I can think of is he cut a deal for revenue sharing relief down the road, beyond the rebates, if he adheres to the threshold to reign in salary inflation.  That of course is collusion, and something Bud is famous for, but it's all speculation at this point. Maybe he is just playing possum and will go wild in a feeding frenzy once the free agent season season begins. :unsure: 
 

jon abbey

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Sampo Gida said:
Business wise it seems dumb.  
 
You keep saying this, but I really don't think you have enough info to go on. Joel Sherman wrote today:

"That is because there is roughly $100 million in savings available in the next 24 months in doing so via money not spent on payroll, money not paid to the tax next year and money received from the revenue-sharing allocation program — plus a lowered tax rate in future years if the Yanks go back over the threshold."

http://nypost.com/2013/10/08/hal-steinbrenner-being-contender-more-important-than-189m-cap/
 

Apisith

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Could the Yankees offer big money but also offer it over a longer timeframe to reduce the AAV? Say 12/$210m or something? Cano would get more dollars but it would be the last contract that he'll sign. It would also significantly lower the AAV, helping them achieve their $189m budget goal. It seems like it's the only solution where Cano gets paid and he stays with the Yankees while they achieve their budgetary goals.
 

jon abbey

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Assuming A-Rod is suspended for a good chunk of next year at the minimum, they have plenty of room to sign Cano and stay under $189M, presumably he is by far their top priority to spend big money on this offseason. The monetary concerns with him are not his AAV, it is being roped into multiple years at the end of the deal with an increasingly worthless player the way that they are now with A-Rod. I think if anything they would try to go shorter and raise the AAV, 6/150 or something like that. 
 

jon abbey

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The new SI has a quote from a GM predicting he stays with NY for 8/178.
 

Sampo Gida

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The big thing on dealing with Cano is not to lose out on other free agents waiting for him.  They should give him a drop dead date by Nov 30 and not let them string it out till January. 
 
 
jon abbey said:
 
You keep saying this, but I really don't think you have enough info to go on. Joel Sherman wrote today:

"That is because there is roughly $100 million in savings available in the next 24 months in doing so via money not spent on payroll, money not paid to the tax next year and money received from the revenue-sharing allocation program — plus a lowered tax rate in future years if the Yanks go back over the threshold."

http://nypost.com/2013/10/08/hal-steinbrenner-being-contender-more-important-than-189m-cap/
 
Sorry missed that.  Cost saving at the expense of revenue is dumb, at least it was in my industry where revenue growth drove decisions, even if you had to lose a bit off the bottom line.  Losing 50-100 million in revenue to save 100 million in expenses just is not done.  Of course, MLB is not a competitive industry, so maybe it works there.
 
Of course, maybe the Yankee Stadium Bonds are the issue. they could be worried about ratings agencies downgrading the bonds if expenses are not curtailed, or hoping for an upgrade if they do, although I would think a revenue drop would be equally concerning to the ratings agency.   Yankees business partner Goldman Sachs may be advising them.  Pure speculation on my part though.
 

TheYaz67

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Well, now a "Cano agent conundrum" has emerged as a new problem, with Jay Z accused of violating MLPA rules....
 
http://news.radio.com/2013/11/06/jay-zs-pricey-gift-to-robinson-cano-investigated-by-major-league-baseball/
 
 
Jay Z is looking at a new problem.
 
While the rapper/mogul famously divested his ownership stake in NBA team the Brooklyn Nets to throw his hat in the ring of representing athletes with the formation of Roc Nation Sports, an expensive watch given to his superstar client Robinson Cano has generated an investigation by the Major League Baseball Players Association for violating agent regulations (via CBS Sports).
 
.....
 
The trouble arises in that such a gift is in direct conflict with Section 5(B)(5)(a) of the Players Association regulations, which states in no uncertain terms: “No Player Agent or Applicant shall provide, cause to be provided or promise to provide, any money or any other thing of value to any player, or any person related to or associated with such player, the purpose of which is to induce or encourage such player to use or continue to use any person’s or firm’s services as a Player Agent, Representative, or Draft Advisor.”
 
According to Players Association officials, the gifting rules are in place to prevent athletes from choosing representation based on “improper inducements.”
 
If he has to get a new agent, that may slow down a Cano deal/delay other deals....
 

jon abbey

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The piece I read on that a few days ago said that the penalty if that were ruled illegal would only be a fine at most, also didn't the present come well after he had chosen his new agency? I don't think it's much of an issue.