Celtics 2014 Pre-Season Thread

[Brickowski]

We're talking about layups.  This is the guy who is supposed to be our best player, and we're talking about layups.  Not outside shots, not outside shots, but layups. 
 
Getting serious.  He will never be a prolific scorer for the reasons you stated, but I do believe he could look for 1 extra layup per quarter right now because there is no outside shooting skill to be had on this team.

 

I don't see him really doing this actually. I don't think he is capable of it from the PG position since most of his accused stat-padding in the past had come in the form of assists with the help of our scorekeeper when dumping the ball to Pierce and KG.

We ran essentially the same sets last year with him making the same passes as he has in the past......the difference being that Green isn't Pierce and Sully/Olynyk isn't KG. He'll benefit from Thornton as our pure scorer but they don't figure to see a ton of time on the floor together.

The point is that he can't play the way he did when he had PP, KG and RA.  He has to adapt to the strengths and weaknesses of the other four guys on the floor.  He has to push the ball.  He has to play without the ball and use baseline cuts and backdoor cuts to score.  He has to make the kinds of plays that Pressey made last night: going coast-to-coast at top speed and taking advantage of a disorganized defense to get easy baskets.
 
He wants to play chess when the other four guys are playing backgammon.  It may produce a bunch of double doubles and triple doubles for Rondo, but it won't produce wins. 

 

[Sprowl]

Once Rondo returns the pace will slow dramatically as he isn't a push it style PG or has ever been one.

 
In fairness to Rondo, there was such a time in 2009-2012 when he would occasionally find a reserve that could keep up with him (eg, Ryan Hollins, Jeff Green, Mikael Pietrus, Chris Johnson), and run a two-man fastbreak while the Big Three and Perk watched from the defensive end. I doubt that Rondo can do it anymore, since his athleticism has deteriorated and injuries and bad habits have accumulated, but with other personnel he once could have done so.

 

[ifmanis5]

Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Where Every Thread Ends In A Rondo Argument.

 

[oumbi]

Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Where Every Thread Ends In A Rondo Argument.

Mods, can we change the forum title to this? Really.

 

[radsoxfan]

I've yet to meet a coach who enters the season talking about how their team will play slower and defensively passive without applying ball presser. It's all gobblygook coach speak this time of year. Once Rondo returns the pace will slow dramatically as he isn't a push it style PG or has ever been one.

 
I respect a lot of your opinions on this board, but I think you see what you want to see with Rondo. The team has been slightly below average (in the 15-20 range) in pace of play throughout Rondo's entire Celtic career.  He has been playing almost exclusively with older players the majority of that time.  Last season he was coming back from a major knee injury.
 
Rondo has done plenty of pushing the pace, and in fact has played his best basketball when doing that.  I agree that sometimes he needs to do it more, and that he needs to have more of an in-between pace (when not trying to start a fast break, he shouldn't automatically walk it up). But saying he hasn't been a push it style PG isn't an accurate statement in my opinion.  
 
The more interesting question to me is, can he still be that type of player post injuries at an older age?

 

[Brickowski]

As a non sequitur, I laughed at the headline in the Globe this morning:"Celtics Forced to Rely on Offensive Balance."  Maybe it should have read: "With Rondo and Green Absent, Celtics Forced to Play the Right Way."

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
I respect a lot of your opinions on this board, but I think you see what you want to see with Rondo. The team has been slightly below average (in the 15-20 range) in pace of play throughout Rondo's entire Celtic career.  He has been playing almost exclusively with older players the majority of that time.  Last season he was coming back from a major knee injury.
 
Rondo has done plenty of pushing the pace, and in fact has played his best basketball when doing that.  I agree that sometimes he needs to do it more, and that he needs to have more of an in-between pace (when not trying to start a fast break, he shouldn't automatically walk it up). But saying he hasn't been a push it style PG isn't an accurate statement in my opinion.  
 
The more interesting question to me is, can he still be that type of player post injuries at an older age?

As you are aware I struggle at times with rationalizing this player. I don't feel I'm that far off base here though. Doc used to march up the sidelines waving for Rondo to push the ball upcourt even with those older players and last season the pace was like nice and day once Pressey subbed for Rondo.

 

[radsoxfan]

As you are aware I struggle at times with rationalizing this player. I don't feel I'm that far off base here though. Doc used to march up the sidelines waving for Rondo to push the ball upcourt even with those older players and last season the pace was like nice and day once Pressey subbed for Rondo.

 
Well last season really shouldn't count in my opinion. I agree Pressey pushed the ball much more, but the first 30 games after major knee surgery isn't a very good time to make an evaluation.
 
Doc would sometimes ask Rondo to push more…. but that doesn't mean that his baseline was not pushing the ball though. Doc would ask players to do things that are their strengths even more than they were already doing them quite often.  That's what coaches should do. Rondo has been a one man fast break quite often throughout his career, but was hindered last season by injuries and previously by aging teammates.
 
I agree this year he needs to be more aggressive and create open court opportunities, though thats easier said than done when you are playing close 40 minutes a game.  I hope he is closer to 30-32 this season, and plays with more aggressiveness both offensively and defensively.

 

[Brickowski]

It's not just Rondo's unwillingness to push the ball (some of which you can attribute to his injury) but also his unwillingness to share the ball.  That's all in his head.
 
Radsoxfan, I hope he makes the changes that you want him to make, but I'm not optimistic.

 

[ifmanis5]

Sunday's game vs. the Nets will be 44 minutes. NBA experimenting with shorter games.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Sunday's game vs. the Nets will be 44 minutes. NBA experimenting with shorter games.

Potential leverage for upcoming labor negotiations I'm sure. There will need to be a ton of give and take or else a lockout/missed season will occur.....this could help give the players something that isn't their old 57%. Proactive is good.

 

[The Social Chair]

From a viewer perspective shorter games are always better. But the NBA's games move pretty quickly until the last 2 minutes. That's the part of the game they really need to experiment with. 

 

[HomeRunBaker]

From a viewer perspective shorter games are always better. But the NBA's games move pretty quickly until the last 2 minutes. That's the part of the game they really need to experiment with. 

I agree it only needs a little tweaking down the stretch as most games are ending in that 2:15-2:20 window anyway. On the business side that's when the most viewers are watching a close game and the more commercial time for the network$......well you know how that goes.

 

[Brickowski]

From a viewer perspective shorter games are always better. 

Not from my perspective.  I like the 48-minute, 4-quarter format.
Maybe we should ask for a corresponding 1/12th reduction in ticket prices.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

From a viewer perspective shorter games are always better. But the NBA's games move pretty quickly until the last 2 minutes. That's the part of the game they really need to experiment with. 

 
I would love it if they limited late game timeout use in some way, especially since most endgame plays just end up being isos or drive and kicks, aka the stuff teams run all game except simpler. Assuming that's a non-starter, a small but sensible tweak would be to eliminate the stupid rule that puts the ball at halfcourt after a timeout. At the very least it would shave a little extra time off the clock moving the ball upcourt during those late game possessions. Of course this would also eliminate some great last second plays but something has to give when they've started experimenting with shorter games.

 

[Brickowski]

IMHO the overall length of the game has little or nothing to do with what happens in the last two minutes.  If they want to fix the last two minutes there are plenty of ways to do it.  For starters, eliminate the "one foul to give" rule.  Limit timeouts.  Have a rule that, each foul in the last two minutes means one point to the team that is fouled plus possession of the ball at halfcourt.  No more parades to the free throw line.
 
But as others have noted, the league likes to stretch the game out at the end because it can squeeze in more commercials.

 

[Granite Sox]

From a viewer perspective shorter games are always better. But the NBA's games move pretty quickly until the last 2 minutes. That's the part of the game they really need to experiment with.

No more than two TO's per team in last two minutes. One full, one :20.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

No more than two TO's per team in last two minutes. One full, one :20.

The networks just paid over $2B dollars to sell advertising time with the final 6 minutes of an NBA game being the prime slots. Good luck having them agree to selling LESS advertising in these slots.

 

[bowiac]

I think shortening the games isn't being creative enough to be honest. If they want to rest players a bit, but don't want to lose games, then they can cap each players' usage at 75 games per year or something.
 
Same ratio as cutting 4 minutes off the games, but also saves some travel, and doesn't lose them ad minutes.

 

[Brickowski]

It occurs to me that a 44 minute game would create time for four additional one-minute commercials given an overall telecast of the same length.
 
But I'm reading that the 44-minute format was proposed by the coaches committee, not by the owners or the networks.  I'm not sure what material advantage the coaches would derive from a shorter game.

 

[Cellar-Door]

It occurs to me that a 44 minute game would create time for four additional one-minute commercials given an overall telecast of the same length.
 
But I'm reading that the 44-minute format was proposed by the coaches committee, not by the owners or the networks.  I'm not sure what material advantage the coaches would derive from a shorter game.

Less need for bench players. Less terrible mismanagement of rotations.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

It occurs to me that a 44 minute game would create time for four additional one-minute commercials given an overall telecast of the same length.
 
But I'm reading that the 44-minute format was proposed by the coaches committee, not by the owners or the networks.  I'm not sure what material advantage the coaches would derive from a shorter game.

Well Doc would get to the airport for his off day flight to Orlando quicker.

 

[Brickowski]

Less need for bench players. Less terrible mismanagement of rotations.

Will four 11-minute quarters, as opposed to four 12-minute quarters, have a significant impact on NBA rotations?  It might for a few teams, but overall I just don't see it.

 

[ALiveH]

how about more ads on the screen during regular game time (like soccer) in order to have fewer commercials.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Will four 11-minute quarters, as opposed to four 12-minute quarters, have a significant impact on NBA rotations?  It might for a few teams, but overall I just don't see it.

It depends. Are substitution patterns driven by minutes played or rest time? If the latter, there would not be much of an effect - players would still need to rest. Probably its a mix of both.

 

[ifmanis5]

Turner starting at PG tonight. Stevens admits that Olynyk is pretty much is the starting center at this point.

 

[Kliq]

On the bright side, the Celtics are really just a good rim protector away from being a damn good defensive team. A backcourt of Turner/Rondo/Bradley/Smart is pretty stifiling, and they have solid wing defenders in Green and Wallace. It is just the bigs that suck.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

It seems like we have the following:

PG: Rondo*, Smart
SG: Bradley, Thornton
SF: Green, Turner
PF: Sully, Bass
C: Olynyk, Zeller

While Rondo is hurt, Pressey may get some time at the point. Otherwise he's the 12th man.

Wallace will be the 11th man, unless he goes Bogans.

I could see Bass being moved, mainly because some team might actually want him.

Maybe Green gets time at the 4, allowing more minutes for Turner/Thornton.

 

[Kliq]

Thornton will almost certainly be this season's Jordan Crawford, where a lot of touches will allow him to have some great scoring nights, which will make him an option for contending teams looking for a spark off of the bench. He also has a sizable expiring contract. I see him being shipped away, with more minutes going to Turner at SG and Young getting reps at SF.

 

[Kliq]

Who else is excited for the end-of-game Avery Bradley contested jumpers?

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Will four 11-minute quarters, as opposed to four 12-minute quarters, have a significant impact on NBA rotations?  It might for a few teams, but overall I just don't see it.

It's 20 minutes of play. It would have to have some impact, but probably a good one for the quality of play on the court and a bad one for the 10-12 guys on the bench.

 

[Brickowski]

It's 20 minutes of playing time, but that's spread out over 8-9 players, and the likely result is that one more guy near the end of the bench sees his time cut, while the guys at the top of the rotation play almost the same number of minutes.
 
Too bad Turner was ejected last night.  At 6-7 he might have been able to bother that last shot a little more.

 

[wutang112878]

On the bright side, the Celtics are really just a good rim protector away from being a damn good defensive team. A backcourt of Turner/Rondo/Bradley/Smart is pretty stifiling, and they have solid wing defenders in Green and Wallace. It is just the bigs that suck.

 
That backcourt is atrocious offensively though.  A lineup can survive with 1 offensive black hole, like say Perk back in the day but when a defense can ignore a couple of guys then you have serious problems.  Also, if we are depending on Wallace for anything more than passing out towels then we are in trouble.

 

[luckiestman]

Turner is playing very well. I don't know how long it can last. 
 
Zeller and Olynyk looked really good. It is a weird thing that I think Sully is better than either of them but pairing Sully with either of them seems like a worse duo.

 

[mauf]

It seems like we have the following:

PG: Rondo*, Smart
SG: Bradley, Thornton
SF: Green, Turner
PF: Sully, Bass
C: Olynyk, Zeller

While Rondo is hurt, Pressey may get some time at the point. Otherwise he's the 12th man.

Wallace will be the 11th man, unless he goes Bogans.

I could see Bass being moved, mainly because some team might actually want him.

Maybe Green gets time at the 4, allowing more minutes for Turner/Thornton.

When you find yourself saying things like "damn, they're sure going to miss Kris Humphries," you know you've got a terrible team.

My son and I play a game where we pretend to give Avery Bradley electric shocks every time he takes a perimeter jumper with more than 5 seconds remaining on the shot clock. He really shouldn't be on the floor at the same time as Rondo. But we're tanking, so I guess we have to do whatever makes most sense for Smart's development.

 

[PeaceSignMoose]

According to Forsberg, the Celtics are close to acquring Will Bynum for Joel Anthony, who I completely forgot was still here.

 

[wutang112878]

On the court that accomplishes nothing, but salary wise we would dump about $1M which isnt bad

 

[HomeRunBaker]

On the court that accomplishes nothing, but salary wise we would dump about $1M which isnt bad

It gives us someone other than Thornton as a shot creator which is a major need on this team. Not leaps and bounds or anything like that but we certainly improved on the court.

Edit: Nevemind. Looks like this move is purely financial to save $900k and Bynum will be waived. I suppose we need to get used to these types of deals.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

It gives us someone other than Thornton as a shot creator which is a major need on this team. Not leaps and bounds or anything like that but we certainly improved on the court.

Edit: Nevemind. Looks like this move is purely financial to save $900k and Bynum will be waived. I suppose we need to get used to these types of deals.

why is Detroit doing it?

 

[nighthob]

why is Detroit doing it?

Because they still have hopes of winning and are probably going to move either Smith or Monroe for a SF and need some depth at the PF/C spot.

 

[Brickowski]

Because they still have hopes of winning and are probably going to move either Smith or Monroe for a SF and need some depth at the PF/C spot.

Yes, I would not be surprised to see Josh Smith headed West. Smith and SVG are just an accident waiting to happen.

 

[nighthob]

I actually think it's Monroe that's going as he's a terrible defensive 4 and not good enough defensively at the 5 to push out Andre Drummond.

 

[Brickowski]

I actually think it's Monroe that's going as he's a terrible defensive 4 and not good enough defensively at the 5 to push out Andre Drummond.

Monroe is virtually untradeable.  He would have to consent to any trade, and the acquiring team would not get Bird rights.
 
Of course, Smith is also virtually untradeable given his contract.  But I could see Smith being moved for the almost equally undesirable Rudy Gay

 

[nighthob]

Well, certainly no team over next summer's cap is going to trade for him, but I'm not sure why this would deter teams under the cap from dealing for him.

 

[Brickowski]

Well, certainly no team over next summer's cap is going to trade for him, but I'm not sure why this would deter teams under the cap from dealing for him.

Teams under the cap tend to be lottery teams.  Why would Monroe consent to such a trade?

 

[nighthob]

Because rather than looking like the worst defensive PF in the NBA he would instead appear to be an average defensive center? If Detroit is starting Drummond/Monroe at the C/PF spots they're also headed for the lottery. Only Monroe will look worse on both sides of the ball there.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

After jacking up nearly 5 1/2 three-pointers per game last year while connecting on just 29% from the college arc I wasn't prepared for Smart to continue not having a conscience from behind the NBA line. So far 2-7 from three today.......why does Marcus Smart continue firing away at will when he's such a horrific perimeter shooter who hasn't shown any improvement in makes or form which is painful to watch?

 

[Scoops Bolling]

Because it's the preseason and working on it during meaningless games is not a terrible idea?

 

[JakeRae]

Because it's the preseason 2014-15 season and working on it during meaningless games is not a terrible idea?

 
I fixed that for you. 
 
This team is building for the future. Smart learning to shoot adequately from range would be a huge factor in him realizing his potential. The best way to learn is by doing.
 
I'd be more worried if Smart stops shooting threes than if he keeps missing them.

 

[Kliq]

Sullinger threw up a 21-19 in 29 minutes tonight. I know it's preseason, but damn!