Celtics Trade Timelord, Brogdon, and picks for Jrue Holiday
- Thread starter DeadlySplitter
- Start date
I think the easy way to group guys is
Ballhandler
Wing
Big
Jrue is a Ballhandler, he can and will play with White who is also a Ballhandler, but he won't play much if any with 2 others.
Ballhandler
Wing
Big
Jrue is a Ballhandler, he can and will play with White who is also a Ballhandler, but he won't play much if any with 2 others.
2018. Rondo started 63 games at the point, Jrue started 81 games at off guard. Worked out pretty well, that was the only NO team in 15 years to win a playoff series (and both Rondo and Holiday started every playoff game that year). He's not a pure point in the simplest sense of the word, but there are only a handful of those guys and it's hardly a title requirement, so whatever.
I could've sworn Smart at one point was listed at 6'4.
I trust the current height measurements on basketball-reference, at least for veterans. They re-measured all players before the 2020 season (I believe with an emphasis on accuracy), so I'm ok with the listed heights for guys that were around back then (maybe Tatum has grown an inch since then).
Jrue was perhaps my favorite non-Celtic, and yet I don’t like this trade - unless perhaps Brogdon is too injured to contribute this year.
I mean, I felt worried about the front court before giving up Rob. The Cs were planning on banking on three fragile bigs. With this move they are going to be forced to rely on two. And that doesn’t even get into the picks, which seemed far more generous than necessary.
Portland’s Cronin comes off as a genius; he’s truly turned lemons into friggin gold. On paper, the “Dame fiasco” has ended historically good for a team that everyone assumed was between a rock and a hard place. And that’s without even getting into what he gets in return for Brogdon.
I mean, I felt worried about the front court before giving up Rob. The Cs were planning on banking on three fragile bigs. With this move they are going to be forced to rely on two. And that doesn’t even get into the picks, which seemed far more generous than necessary.
Portland’s Cronin comes off as a genius; he’s truly turned lemons into friggin gold. On paper, the “Dame fiasco” has ended historically good for a team that everyone assumed was between a rock and a hard place. And that’s without even getting into what he gets in return for Brogdon.
Feel a little bad for Pritchard to miss the last train out to Portland. But he should get more minutes in Boston now, right?
Again, I’m not trying to be argumentative.
I think that Jrue was better off ball in New Orleans.
I think that they have more depth at the ballhandler position (White and Pritchard) than they do at the wing if they plan to play with one small and one big.
That is true but pre-trade we were counting on 3 bigs with 2 playing at a time. After the trade we are counting on 2 bigs with one playing at a time.
Out of necessity, yes. He's now our 3rd guard, which means like 15-20 minutes a game for him, if you assume White will continue to miss almost no time and Jrue minimal time.
Shoes is part of it, guys are usually listed as their with shoes height so if Smart wore thicker insoles then they round up... Voila 6'4"
Our top 3 guards are Jrue, White and Jaylen. One of the first two will be on the floor nearly all of the time when we are at fully strength. One of the first two I would expect to be coming off the bench as part of that primary 3-guard rotation. There will be time for Pritchard as we won't be at 100% all the time or maybe not even that often...but at full strength he's never getting those 15-20 consistent minutes.
Significant side benefit of the deal, from my perspective: not having to witness you guys wishing all kinds of misfortune upon the Warriors (beyond the standard Draymond hate, Curry annoyance, etc.)
Haven’t read though all the reactions yet — my gut reaction was that it’s a great trade for the Cs. Got the best player in the deal, which is usually a win in the NBA; plus traded some interior D for elite perimeter D, which makes a ton of sense with KP in the fold and Smart shipped off. Absolutely love the new presumptive starting 5 if they can develop chemistry on the fly.
Haven’t read though all the reactions yet — my gut reaction was that it’s a great trade for the Cs. Got the best player in the deal, which is usually a win in the NBA; plus traded some interior D for elite perimeter D, which makes a ton of sense with KP in the fold and Smart shipped off. Absolutely love the new presumptive starting 5 if they can develop chemistry on the fly.
I would be surprised if they don’t start White and Jrue and bring Al off the bench.
Yeah, if you keep Jaylen in the guard rotation then who's in the wing rotation - it's Tatum, Hauser and ??!
I assume they start Jrue, White, Brown and Tatum when available and usually Porzingis, but maybe rotate a bit more there. Al is 6th. They'll use the season to see who 7 and 8 are, with Hauser, Svi and Prichard having inside track
And Jaylen. This whole guard vs wing thing isn’t a reality. There will be plenty of minutes where Jaylen is a “shooting guard” and plenty of minutes where he is a “small forward”.
I mean the likely starting 5 of Jrue, White, Brown, Tatum, and Porzingis has him in the wing rotation.
Random musings about this trade:
Brad is clearly not a fan of the "just run it back" strategy. Can't blame him; team's flaws got badly exposed by Miami; it wasn't just shot luck.
Celtics were better than the Warriors going into their Finals matchup, but GSW's bench was able to run the Celtics off the floor. So Brad went out and got Brogdon and Gallinari.
Running it back this time would mean a team with a declining Horford (which may yet be this team's Achilles heal), a Smart whose best defensive days were past him, a Rob Williams who despite being handled with kid gloves all season was still a shell of his peak by the time the playoffs rolled around, and a Brogdon who may have had the best season he's going to have.
So, kudos to Brad for going all in to build the best possible starting lineup around Tatum, which really should be his #1 goal anyway. Playoff crunch time should be much less of a problem for this team going forward, which matters a lot.
The team still has assets in future years if it comes to that. Porzingis is extended for 2 more years after this one. And Brown's contract is a hugely valuable asset for as long as he's healthy given the expected cap explosion in the coming years. So may as well go all in now; the Bucks certainly didn't regret doing so, and they found a way to present themselves as a formidable challenger this coming year.
Brad is clearly not a fan of the "just run it back" strategy. Can't blame him; team's flaws got badly exposed by Miami; it wasn't just shot luck.
Celtics were better than the Warriors going into their Finals matchup, but GSW's bench was able to run the Celtics off the floor. So Brad went out and got Brogdon and Gallinari.
Running it back this time would mean a team with a declining Horford (which may yet be this team's Achilles heal), a Smart whose best defensive days were past him, a Rob Williams who despite being handled with kid gloves all season was still a shell of his peak by the time the playoffs rolled around, and a Brogdon who may have had the best season he's going to have.
So, kudos to Brad for going all in to build the best possible starting lineup around Tatum, which really should be his #1 goal anyway. Playoff crunch time should be much less of a problem for this team going forward, which matters a lot.
The team still has assets in future years if it comes to that. Porzingis is extended for 2 more years after this one. And Brown's contract is a hugely valuable asset for as long as he's healthy given the expected cap explosion in the coming years. So may as well go all in now; the Bucks certainly didn't regret doing so, and they found a way to present themselves as a formidable challenger this coming year.
A lot of semantics with positional definitions.
Brad uses Ballhandler, Wing, and Big.
Just because someone is labeled a "ballhandler" doesn't mean they can't play Wing and vice versa.
In fact, every one of their Top6 (JT, JB, JH, KP, DW, and AH) can play multiple roles. Positional versatility is an attractive quality that Brad has said he values.
I expect Al to be the first man off the bench when all are healthy with Hauser, PP, Svi up next. Luke will see lots of regular season minutes since they will load manage KP/Al.
Just note every one of those 10 players can hit a 3 (incl Kornet). This team will be going 5-wide quite a bit
Brad uses Ballhandler, Wing, and Big.
Just because someone is labeled a "ballhandler" doesn't mean they can't play Wing and vice versa.
In fact, every one of their Top6 (JT, JB, JH, KP, DW, and AH) can play multiple roles. Positional versatility is an attractive quality that Brad has said he values.
I expect Al to be the first man off the bench when all are healthy with Hauser, PP, Svi up next. Luke will see lots of regular season minutes since they will load manage KP/Al.
Just note every one of those 10 players can hit a 3 (incl Kornet). This team will be going 5-wide quite a bit
I agree with most of this, but not the bolded. Regardless of what he did early in his career, Kornet is not a 3 point threat. Ben Simmons has as many made 3 pointers in his last two seasons as Kornet (3).
Maybe as a rare change of pace, but not for any other reason.
Under that convention, Holliday is obviously a ballhandler.
For whatever it is worth, basketball-reference has them both at 6'3".
I expect White and Holliday to both start and both handle the ball to some extent. But if I had to call one of them a combo guard, it would be White.
I would imagine White will get those assignments.
Someting else to think about: Mazzulla's lead assistant, Charles "I'm a general!" Lee, knows Jrue well from their time in Milwaukee together.
Denver didn’t. Really they only needed 4 guys.
Great trade love going for it. Every . Single. Time.
Hope you're right, but don't see him even in the TOP13 at the moment
He's long but isn't physically developed, not NBA-ready for frontcourt play.
His footwork is raw, NBA guards will cross him up.
Hat tip Karalis (and his guest) but I thought this was an interesting they made. If you were to combine (i) Smart and Brogdon, you'd basically end up with Jrue Holiday and (ii) Grant Williams and TL, you might end up with Porzingas.
4 players into 2 with most of the strengths seem to be better for playoffs.
My take is that the Cs are not going to be as good during the regular season but if they are healthy, this team is built for the playoffs.
Also, I think Oshae Brissett may get significant minutes for this team for his defense and - hopefully - rebounding. One thing the Cs are lacking in is rebounding.
4 players into 2 with most of the strengths seem to be better for playoffs.
My take is that the Cs are not going to be as good during the regular season but if they are healthy, this team is built for the playoffs.
Also, I think Oshae Brissett may get significant minutes for this team for his defense and - hopefully - rebounding. One thing the Cs are lacking in is rebounding.
Pritchard is not a good ball handler. He’s an undersized SG. So they needed a ball handler capable of guarding bigger players.
Great move but also welcome to the 2nd Apron.
View: https://youtu.be/zZktAgRTznY?si=_A580v5l-q8shXGf&t=551
View: https://youtu.be/zZktAgRTznY?si=_A580v5l-q8shXGf&t=551
I don’t disagree. I just think he’ll be paired as a small with wings who have playmaking ability.
Again, this makes no sense.
If you're counting your top two at the position of ballhandler as White and Pritchard so you can play Holiday at wing, that position has as it's top two options Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown.
Why do you think they intend to play a lot with one small and one big? They'll likely often play with two smalls and one big, sometimes two bigs and one small, sometimes two bigs and two smalls and yes, sometimes one big, one small and three wings(those being 3 of Tatum/Brown/Hauser/Brissett/Svi/maybe Lamar Stevens)
You don't need to go hunting for extra minutes for Pritchard. He's a borderline rotation player, and probably the 8th best player on the team currently.
Even better, just play him with another small with playmaking ability, like White or Jrue.
I think Jrue can handle them fine. It was definitely a weak spot for Smart in recent years.
The reality at the guard spot is that it’s extremely rare for any defender to be able to actually stay in front of the quicker guys and they’re usually getting switched onto bigs anyway. It’s a team job, and one last year’s mix of players (and scheme) really struggled with.
Porzingis is not much of a rebounder. Neither is Al. Tatum might be the only plus rebounder on the team.
Jrue was until today my favorite active player who had never been a Celtic. I liked Rob and loved Marcus. But this is a significantly better team than in June.
Also I read through the thread but not sure it was mentioned: How often does the NBA team with (now) the best odds to win the finals get an all-star from the (now) second best team in the odds who is a division rival, and NOT via free agency?
Has that happened zero times ever?
Love having a guy on the Celtics who knows our biggest opponents in the East pretty much inside out.
Also I read through the thread but not sure it was mentioned: How often does the NBA team with (now) the best odds to win the finals get an all-star from the (now) second best team in the odds who is a division rival, and NOT via free agency?
Has that happened zero times ever?
Love having a guy on the Celtics who knows our biggest opponents in the East pretty much inside out.
I’ve had a soft spot for Jrue ever since Philly sent him as their lotto rep and he had to awkwardly stand up there next to the Wizards rep to find out if his team was about to win the sweepstakes to draft the clear #1 pick who happened to play the same position as him.
The Kyrie trade was kind of like that. Not to win the Finals, but maybe the ECF.
There’s enough talent at the back half of this roster, and in the trade deadline buyout market, to fill any playoff needs in spots 7-9 in the rotation. The Celtics have the best 1-6 in the league.
Ownership isn’t afraid to put all their chips in the middle to get another banner. Four $30+ million players on their roster, with two heading to $50 million soon.
Ownership isn’t afraid to put all their chips in the middle to get another banner. Four $30+ million players on their roster, with two heading to $50 million soon.
One thing worth noting, while minor, the Celtics can't sign any player who is bought out that was making more than the MLE as they are over the 2nd apron.
I love this trade.
And while it’s indeed painful to see Rob go, how many games do you see him playing next season? My upside guess would be 50. And do you see him playing every playoff game? I don’t. The more likely result is him missing several games.
The sad fact is that life with Rob was always going to be a crapshoot, and no one would have been the least bit surprised if he missed significant time this season.
And while it’s indeed painful to see Rob go, how many games do you see him playing next season? My upside guess would be 50. And do you see him playing every playoff game? I don’t. The more likely result is him missing several games.
The sad fact is that life with Rob was always going to be a crapshoot, and no one would have been the least bit surprised if he missed significant time this season.
Other than Tatum, TL was really the only plus rebounder (for his position or otherwise) in the last couple of years. It's kind of shocking that the Celtics led the league in DRB% last year, considering. All signs point to Tatum leading the Celtics in rebounds for the 6th year in a row.
The only forwards who had more total rebounds than Tatum last year were Mobley, Portis, Giannis and Randle. Just like his passing and defense, Tatum is really pretty great at rebounding when he tries (and more than solid when he doesn't).
How is this possible? They were the number one team in the NBA in defensive rebounding last year. They are full of good rebounders.
They were solid across the board, but TL and Tatum were the only ones near the top at their respective positions. White averaged 3.6 rebounds per game which isn't bad for his size, but there were 37 guards who averaged more. Jaylen also averaged a career high 6.9 per game.