Celtics vs. Warriors, NBA Finals

Who you got?

  • Celtics in 4

    Votes: 6 1.5%
  • Celtics in 5

    Votes: 18 4.6%
  • Celtics in 6

    Votes: 146 37.2%
  • Celtics in 7

    Votes: 127 32.4%
  • Warriors in 4

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Warriors in 5

    Votes: 23 5.9%
  • Warriors in 6

    Votes: 56 14.3%
  • Warriors in 7

    Votes: 15 3.8%

  • Total voters
    392
  • Poll closed .

Eddie Jurak

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As much as we may want to pin the blame on Tatum and Brown, I think the real issue is that almost nobody else has stepped up to help win a game in awhile this series. Curry has an off night and Wiggins and Klay each chip in 20+ points. In Game 2, outside of Tatum and Brown the other three starters contributed 6 points - in total.

Smart has been putting up some points in recent games - but I also feel like he's been forcing it with some bad turnovers on entry passes. I was surprised to see he only had 4 TOs last night, felt like more than that. Horford, White, Grant, Pritchard - those guys haven't done a heck of a lot in awhile.
The only Celtic who played a half decent game last night was Rob.
 

Koufax

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Horford was open a lot last night but ignored by his teammates.
 

NomarsFool

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I do hope Brad Stevens is taking note and making plans to upgrade some of the 6/7/8 spots in the rotation, as the C's have gotten next to nothing out of those spots in these Finals. Which has hurt them in that the bench hasn't provided any sort of a momentum change in any of the games, and the starters are clearly out of gas.
Well, he just traded for White - which is #6 on the depth chart, I'd think. It's a shame he has been so inconsistent. Definitely some great games, but others that seem like real clunkers.

He has a real decision to make re: Grant Williams. Sometimes he looks like an NBA rotation player, and others - not so much.
 

bosockboy

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The extra games against Milwaukee and Miami are showing up. Miami, in particular, should’ve been done in 5. Exhilarating wins but the extra games took a piece out of them.
 

chilidawg

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Tatum's decision to push around his food on his plate like peak Tony Soprano and let himself get pinned to the sideline by Wiggins was maddening. They're frankly lucky they even got a shot off as his desperation pass could have easily gotten stolen.
I said in the game thread at the time that they deserved the Poole shot for having such a bad possession prior to it. Chance to close out the quarter and failed miserably.
 

Auger34

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As much as we may want to pin the blame on Tatum and Brown, I think the real issue is that almost nobody else has stepped up to help win a game in awhile this series. Curry has an off night and Wiggins and Klay each chip in 20+ points. In Game 2, outside of Tatum and Brown the other three starters contributed 6 points - in total.

Smart has been putting up some points in recent games - but I also feel like he's been forcing it with some bad turnovers on entry passes. I was surprised to see he only had 4 TOs last night, felt like more than that. Horford, White, Grant, Pritchard - those guys haven't done a heck of a lot in awhile.
What’s maddening about Smart is that the turnovers are just insanely awful. He had 3 on inbounds passes that didn’t have a fucking prayer of succeeding. He really, really needs to value possession more than he does right now
 

RorschachsMask

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Pretty crazy that we can tie the finals 3-3 in a couple of nights with the Jay’s having horribly inefficient series, Tatum with a 50% TS, and Jaylen at 51%. Need them both to score an efficient 25+ on Thursday, I’m cautiously optimistic.
 

NomarsFool

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How did GS rejuvenate Andrew Wiggins? I thought he was supposed to be a horrific defensive player?
 

BaseballJones

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How did GS rejuvenate Andrew Wiggins? I thought he was supposed to be a horrific defensive player?
They have a phenomenal program there led by a great coach and one of the most coachable megastars ever to play in Steph Curry. Wiggins always had talent. This was a great situation for him to enter into.
 

BaseballJones

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And as far as the series being “on serve”… it’s amazing but true. 3-2, Warriors, with game 6 in Boston. If Boston can take care of business then the pressure is squarely on Golden State, as they do NOT want to blow a 3-2 lead, especially given that they have memories of blowing a 3-1 lead a few years ago.

Just get it to game 7 somehow.
 

lars10

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Tatum's decision to push around his food on his plate like peak Tony Soprano and let himself get pinned to the sideline by Wiggins was maddening. They're frankly lucky they even got a shot off as his desperation pass could have easily gotten stolen.
He also got fouled passing it to Brown... Brown should have probably dribbled it back out since there was so much time left on the shot clock, but I think they're also trained to take shots when they have a good, clean look.
 

Eddie Jurak

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In game 5 (10-point loss): Rob Williams played 30 minutes, scored 10 points/8 rebounds/2 assists, and had no blocks, steals, or turnovers. But he was a +11, the only non-garbage time Celtic to be positive. The Kornet krew were a +6 in one minute. In the other 17 minutes, the Celtics as a team were -27.

In game 4 (10-point loss): Rob Williams played 31 minutes, scored 7 points/12 rebounds/4 assists/1 steal/2 blocks/no turnovers. He was a +6, which led the team. Tatum was a +1, Brown and Pritchard were even, and everyone else was minus. In the 17 "not Rob" minutes, the Celtics were -16.

In game 3 (16 point win): Rob Williams played 25 minutes, scored 8 points/10 rebounds/0 assists/3 steal/4 blocks/no turnovers. He was a +21, to lead the team. The Kornet krew was even in 2 minutes. In the 21 "not Rob" (and not garbage) minutes, the Celtics were a -5.

In game 2 (19 point loss): Rob Williams played 14 minutes, scored 2 points/2 rebounds/1 assists/0 steal/2 blocks/no turnovers. He was a -6, to lead the team in non-garbage time, which came early in this game. (Nesmith was a +10 over the game's final 10 minutes. In the 24 "not Rob" (and not garbage) minutes, the Celtics were -23.

In game 1 (12 point win): Rob Williams played 24 minutes, scored 8 points/6 rebounds/0 assists/1 steal/4 blocks/2 turnovers. Rob was a -1. The Kornet krew was -3 in 1 minute. In the 23 "not Rob" (and not garbage) minutes, the Celtics were a +16.

Game 1 does not fit with the others. But since game 1, the Celtics are +33 in 100 minutes with Rob, versus -71 in 79 minutes without him. Add in game 1 and the numbers arer still pretty striking: +32 in 124 minutes with Rob, -55 in 102 minutes without him.

Celtic series MVP (of a team trailing 3-2 after 5)... Rob?
 

BaseballJones

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One problem with today's game (among many actually) is that there's this drive or three mentality. I get the analytics. But the low post, and the midrange, are just lost arts for the most part. When guys drive, they have opportunities for pretty easy pull ups from about 8-12 feet. But no, they HAVE to get all the way to the rim. So they eschew a pretty easy pull up jumper and instead force a drive into heavy traffic. At that point, they either throw up a difficult shot or they pass back out. But the problem with a pass back out is that usually their back is to the three point line. So in one motion, they have to turn their bodies and, not really knowing where the defenders are, they fling the ball at where they hope their teammates are. As we saw from that clip, so many times the result is just a horrific pass either out of bounds or to the opposing team (which is doubly bad as it starts a fast break the other way).

Teams really, really, REALLY need to learn how to score in all ways. Threes. Drives to the rim. Pull ups. Mid-range jumpers. Low post play (god how nice would it have been last night to have one guy who could dominate in the post?). GS was giving Boston the little mid-range shot. I know that over the course of a season you don't want to major in those, but in any given game, that just might be the ticket to winning.

It's just infuriating - and honestly, this kind of play has filtered down to the pick up courts too - to see players only either drive to the rim (throwing up a crazy shot or making a crazy kick out pass) or chuck a three. Especially when neither of those is really working (threes aren't falling, and too many turnovers on drives). Can the Celtics PLEASE figure out another way to score? Pretty please?
 

HomeRunBaker

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How did GS rejuvenate Andrew Wiggins? I thought he was supposed to be a horrific defensive player?
Wiggins always had the physicals to be an elite defensive player. It’s tough to motivate a 22-yr old multi-millionaire while losing 60 games a year in Minnesota. Metrics don’t really account for these type of factors.
 

lexrageorge

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How did GS rejuvenate Andrew Wiggins? I thought he was supposed to be a horrific defensive player?
They have a phenomenal program there led by a great coach and one of the most coachable megastars ever to play in Steph Curry. Wiggins always had talent. This was a great situation for him to enter into.
I'm guessing we all forgot that Wiggins was rookie of the year in 2015. Granted, that cream of that class had a lot of late developing players: Jokic averaged 10 ppg; Clint Capella played 12 games; Embiid missed the season with his foot injury.

The problem with Wiggins is that he never seemed to improve while playing for the T-Wolves. Sometimes happens with good young players that end up on teams lacking talent, and the Minnesota team of Wiggins rookie year had very little NBA-ready talent outside of Wiggins (LaVine wasn't ready at 19). He had 4 head coaches, including the vastly overrated Tom Thibodeau. And there was the drama of players like Jimmy Butler and KAT playing for contracts.

At Golden State, he is on a team that could afford to coach him and allow him to bring out his talent.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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Don't post here often, but I just have to say this is the most maddening, frustrating "good" team I have seen in awhile. This is 2003 level frustration. They are the better team and have continuously pissed it away.
 

m0ckduck

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The extra games against Milwaukee and Miami are showing up. Miami, in particular, should’ve been done in 5. Exhilarating wins but the extra games took a piece out of them.
It certainly feels as if Boston has played twice as many postseason games as Golden State. In fact, it's 23-21. Granted, there's a big disparity between the intensity of their series, and the fact that Golden State has had a better distribution of rest days...
 

Shaky Walton

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Forgive me if someone has already noted this...I've been treading lightly on all manner of Celtics media today.

Prices on Stub Hub for Game 6 are falling faster than Peloton stock.

FWIW.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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One problem with today's game (among many actually) is that there's this drive or three mentality. I get the analytics. But the low post, and the midrange, are just lost arts for the most part. When guys drive, they have opportunities for pretty easy pull ups from about 8-12 feet. But no, they HAVE to get all the way to the rim. So they eschew a pretty easy pull up jumper and instead force a drive into heavy traffic. At that point, they either throw up a difficult shot or they pass back out. But the problem with a pass back out is that usually their back is to the three point line. So in one motion, they have to turn their bodies and, not really knowing where the defenders are, they fling the ball at where they hope their teammates are. As we saw from that clip, so many times the result is just a horrific pass either out of bounds or to the opposing team (which is doubly bad as it starts a fast break the other way).

Teams really, really, REALLY need to learn how to score in all ways. Threes. Drives to the rim. Pull ups. Mid-range jumpers. Low post play (god how nice would it have been last night to have one guy who could dominate in the post?). GS was giving Boston the little mid-range shot. I know that over the course of a season you don't want to major in those, but in any given game, that just might be the ticket to winning.

It's just infuriating - and honestly, this kind of play has filtered down to the pick up courts too - to see players only either drive to the rim (throwing up a crazy shot or making a crazy kick out pass) or chuck a three. Especially when neither of those is really working (threes aren't falling, and too many turnovers on drives). Can the Celtics PLEASE figure out another way to score? Pretty please?
I'd definitely like to see Jaylen mixing in dribbling with the intent to shoot rather than drive. He can get open FT pull-ups with explosive 2 dribble drives that get his man on their backfoot and free his shooting hand. He has taken a fair number of mid-range jumpers but they've been more afterthoughts as you said when the initial plan doesn't work and there isn't a clear option for a pass. Any clean look for Tatum/Brown should be considered a good look, especially when the team is having trouble scoring. For Tatum I think this takes the form of shorter floaters/little jumpers where he is still attacking intentionally but being smart about not forcing it against 2-3 rim defenders.

It's a balance because they are tougher shots and less efficient but the offense has been terrible. Marcus occasionally understands this when he's posting smaller guards and using his bulk to get clean looks.

More movement + more intention with their iso play and they'll be fine. That is how they shined in the 3rd along with tight D.
 

jezza1918

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In game 5 (10-point loss): Rob Williams played 30 minutes, scored 10 points/8 rebounds/2 assists, and had no blocks, steals, or turnovers. But he was a +11, the only non-garbage time Celtic to be positive. The Kornet krew were a +6 in one minute. In the other 17 minutes, the Celtics as a team were -27.

In game 4 (10-point loss): Rob Williams played 31 minutes, scored 7 points/12 rebounds/4 assists/1 steal/2 blocks/no turnovers. He was a +6, which led the team. Tatum was a +1, Brown and Pritchard were even, and everyone else was minus. In the 17 "not Rob" minutes, the Celtics were -16.

In game 3 (16 point win): Rob Williams played 25 minutes, scored 8 points/10 rebounds/0 assists/3 steal/4 blocks/no turnovers. He was a +21, to lead the team. The Kornet krew was even in 2 minutes. In the 21 "not Rob" (and not garbage) minutes, the Celtics were a -5.

In game 2 (19 point loss): Rob Williams played 14 minutes, scored 2 points/2 rebounds/1 assists/0 steal/2 blocks/no turnovers. He was a -6, to lead the team in non-garbage time, which came early in this game. (Nesmith was a +10 over the game's final 10 minutes. In the 24 "not Rob" (and not garbage) minutes, the Celtics were -23.

In game 1 (12 point win): Rob Williams played 24 minutes, scored 8 points/6 rebounds/0 assists/1 steal/4 blocks/2 turnovers. Rob was a -1. The Kornet krew was -3 in 1 minute. In the 23 "not Rob" (and not garbage) minutes, the Celtics were a +16.

Game 1 does not fit with the others. But since game 1, the Celtics are +33 in 100 minutes with Rob, versus -71 in 79 minutes without him. Add in game 1 and the numbers arer still pretty striking: +32 in 124 minutes with Rob, -55 in 102 minutes without him.

Celtic series MVP (of a team trailing 3-2 after 5)... Rob?
By the gamescore metric Tatum is pretty clearly the mvp for the celtics so far. The issue is - A. he pales in comparison to Curry and B. it's indicative of how bad the role players have been collectively been in this series. Eye test wise Tatum has been fine this series (in a vacuum, not compared to expectations). Of the main counting stats - points/boards/assists - Tatum is one rebound shy (in game 4) of leading the team in all categories for the last two games. And I think we all agree that he still hasn't played nearly to the level of what's expected at this point.
Adding up total gamescores for the 3 celtics and curry here is what it bears out:
Tatum = 76.7 (15.3 avg)
Brown = 68.7 (13.7 avg)
Williams = 57.7 (11.5 avg)
Curry = 107.5 (21.5= avg)

I understand gamescore is just one aggregate metric, but I think it also passes the smell test in this case. Tatum has been the best celtic, but still not nearly good enough...I'll also add that if RW was healthy and could play more minutes my guess is he would be mvp, but simply isn't able to be out there enough. Specifically with regards to last night, if Brown plays well or you get bench contributions they probably win that game. If both happen it's an easy win. I mean for effs sake, our primary bench players (white/grant/pritchard) played a collective 42 minutes and scored 4 points. Kornet and Nesmith scored 6 points in about 3 collective minutes!

Last thing, I don't post much and when I do it's usually in defense of Tatum. The above is not meant to be further defense of him...he has not been good enough. My main point is that neither has the rest of the team. And yet, somehow, if they hold serve Thursday they will find themselves in a game 7 with most of the pressure being on Golden State.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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He also got fouled passing it to Brown... Brown should have probably dribbled it back out since there was so much time left on the shot clock, but I think they're also trained to take shots when they have a good, clean look.
He may have gotten fouled by Poole but that looks like inadvertent contact to me and I simply don't see a foul on Wiggins. Also, Jaylen gets the ball with three on the clock, so taking it back out wasn't happening. So in sum total he chewed up 20 seconds of clock and dribbled himself to nowheresville. Terrible oft-repeated mistake tbh.

View: https://streamable.com/sdizch
 

Eddie Jurak

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By the gamescore metric Tatum is pretty clearly the mvp for the celtics so far. The issue is - A. he pales in comparison to Curry and B. it's indicative of how bad the role players have been collectively been in this series. Eye test wise Tatum has been fine this series (in a vacuum, not compared to expectations). Of the main counting stats - points/boards/assists - Tatum is one rebound shy (in game 4) of leading the team in all categories for the last two games. And I think we all agree that he still hasn't played nearly to the level of what's expected at this point.
Adding up total gamescores for the 3 celtics and curry here is what it bears out:
Tatum = 76.7 (15.3 avg)
Brown = 68.7 (13.7 avg)
Williams = 57.7 (11.5 avg)
Curry = 107.5 (21.5= avg)

I understand gamescore is just one aggregate metric, but I think it also passes the smell test in this case. Tatum has been the best celtic, but still not nearly good enough...I'll also add that if RW was healthy and could play more minutes my guess is he would be mvp, but simply isn't able to be out there enough. Specifically with regards to last night, if Brown plays well or you get bench contributions they probably win that game. If both happen it's an easy win. I mean for effs sake, our primary bench players (white/grant/pritchard) played a collective 42 minutes and scored 4 points. Kornet and Nesmith scored 6 points in about 3 collective minutes!

Last thing, I don't post much and when I do it's usually in defense of Tatum. The above is not meant to be further defense of him...he has not been good enough. My main point is that neither has the rest of the team. And yet, somehow, if they hold serve Thursday they will find themselves in a game 7 with most of the pressure being on Golden State.
The difference between Tatum and Rob here would look to be entirely a function of minutes played, which is part of value no doubt.

My point was really that the Celtics look like 2 different teams depending on whether Rob is on the floor or not. It’s striking. Can’t really ask that question for Tatum because he is almost always on the floor.
 

jezza1918

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The difference between Tatum and Rob here would look to be entirely a function of minutes played, which is part of value no doubt.

My point was really that the Celtics look like 2 different teams depending on whether Rob is on the floor or not. It’s striking. Can’t really ask that question for Tatum because he is almost always on the floor.
Totally agree. WRT to the bolded, one thing I've been wondering this morning is are the celtics too reliant on Tatum on both end of floors? I do wonder if Tatum playing pretty high level defense for most of the game affects his ability to close. Or, from a broader perspective, what's the track record for stars being the focal point for a team on both ends and ultimately leading the team to a title. I cant imagine that list is too long, in the modern era at least. That said, I'm willing to be told I'm wrong by people who know more than me though!
 

BaseballJones

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Wiggins has been terrific for them. Crazy thing isn't his scoring (he's a career 19.3 point scorer), it's his rebounding.

His career rebounding average is 4.4 per game. He's never averaged more than 5.1 rebounds a game over a full season. He's just a meh rebounder for a guy his length and athleticism. I mean, fine. Nothing special.

This series? He's averaging 9.4 rebounds per game. His WORST game he secured 5 rebounds. All playoffs actually he's been good on the glass - averaging 7.6 rebounds a game during the playoffs. Kind of crazy uptick in production on the boards.

Last two games? 16 and 13. What the hell?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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Forgive me if someone has already noted this...I've been treading lightly on all manner of Celtics media today.

Prices on Stub Hub for Game 6 are falling faster than Peloton stock.

FWIW.
This is great news!! No better time to force a Game 7 than after the public gives up on the team.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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Cheapest ticket right now is $745. What the hell were they before this morning if that’s considered falling?
You should have seen the prices for the games down in Miami. Morning of one of the early series games was considering surprising the wife. Mid-court low level balcony $1500 per. Obstructed view nosedbleeds behind the basket and standing room only started at $450 per.

We watched from the couch.
 

NomarsFool

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It makes sense that a potential series clinching game 6 would be much more valuable that a series tieing game.

On a different topic, if a team just throws a pass to the other team, can we stop calling that a "steal"? Let's just call it "an acceptance" or something like that :)
 

8slim

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One problem with today's game (among many actually) is that there's this drive or three mentality. I get the analytics. But the low post, and the midrange, are just lost arts for the most part. When guys drive, they have opportunities for pretty easy pull ups from about 8-12 feet. But no, they HAVE to get all the way to the rim. So they eschew a pretty easy pull up jumper and instead force a drive into heavy traffic. At that point, they either throw up a difficult shot or they pass back out. But the problem with a pass back out is that usually their back is to the three point line. So in one motion, they have to turn their bodies and, not really knowing where the defenders are, they fling the ball at where they hope their teammates are. As we saw from that clip, so many times the result is just a horrific pass either out of bounds or to the opposing team (which is doubly bad as it starts a fast break the other way).

Teams really, really, REALLY need to learn how to score in all ways. Threes. Drives to the rim. Pull ups. Mid-range jumpers. Low post play (god how nice would it have been last night to have one guy who could dominate in the post?). GS was giving Boston the little mid-range shot. I know that over the course of a season you don't want to major in those, but in any given game, that just might be the ticket to winning.

It's just infuriating - and honestly, this kind of play has filtered down to the pick up courts too - to see players only either drive to the rim (throwing up a crazy shot or making a crazy kick out pass) or chuck a three. Especially when neither of those is really working (threes aren't falling, and too many turnovers on drives). Can the Celtics PLEASE figure out another way to score? Pretty please?
We're both Syracuse alums, so you may appreciate this comparison. Remember back in 2010 when the 'Cuse had Arinze Onauku at C? He shot 68% from the field that year, and could be automatic at times in the post. He was such a run stopper -- when we'd give up a few baskets and momentum was turning, you could reliably get him the ball down low and he'd get a 2. The NBA game just doesn't seem to be played that way anymore, and I think it contributes to the inability to make a few shots and disrupt an opponent's run.
 

BaseballJones

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We're both Syracuse alums, so you may appreciate this comparison. Remember back in 2010 when the 'Cuse had Arinze Onauku at C? He shot 68% from the field that year, and could be automatic at times in the post. He was such a run stopper -- when we'd give up a few baskets and momentum was turning, you could reliably get him the ball down low and he'd get a 2. The NBA game just doesn't seem to be played that way anymore, and I think it contributes to the inability to make a few shots and disrupt an opponent's run.
Yep, he was solid and I agree. I think you still need to be able to play P&R defense and he wasn't able to do that really. But yeah, it's so nice to have a guy that is a pretty sure bucket that you can go to.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The rest of the series seems pretty simple to me. Nothing changes except Boston needs to absolutely maximize their opportunities when Poole is on the floor. They have successfully attacked him and limited his minutes which is a key to slowing down the Warriors offense. Last night Curry had quite a bit of help in the form of Wiggins, Klay, Payton, Poole and even Draymond. If they can limit Steph's help and continue to force him to work, they have a good shot to take the next game in Boston.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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This is going to sound kinda dumb, but I think JVG said something similar last night when he said that the Celts looked hungover in the first half. It was almost as if they were still thinking about Game 4 and not focusing on Game 5. If the Celts are to win this thing, they have to win in a fashion where Golden State is in a similar funk on Sunday night.

I know, I know, all they need is a win to keep playing; but I think that in order to win a Game 7 in San Francisco while running on fumes, Boston needs a little help. A funked-out Golden State would be a nice bit of help.
 

Everetts Dinosaurs

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I'll be honest, I'm pretty bummed today. I thought I'd be mad, I thought I'd be bitter, I thought I'd be cussing out the refs. Instead, I just feel like we've blown a great opportunity to bring in a banner. I know the series isn't over and this team has proven resilient. I fully believe that we can come back, but I also recognize that the odds are stacked against us.

In December we were wondering if this core was something we could build around, if the Jays could play together, if Marcus could be a point guard on a contender, if Rob could take the leap, if any of the recent draftees could be a part of the rotation. For 5+ months it felt like we were sitting on a contender, on a foundation that we could build on for years to come. Now some of those questions are creeping back into the picture.

I'm probably just being overly dramatic on the morning after a loss, and I look forward to the team proving me wrong on Thursday.
 

radsoxfan

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Is it possible Tatum is just kind of gassed? I did some a quick stat check on B-Ref and found for minutes played amongst top 3 guys this series:
Tatum - 2,731 reg/898 playoffs (3,629 total)
Brown - 2,220 reg/832 playoffs (3,052 total)
Curry - 2,221 reg/687 playoffs (2,898 total)
So Tatum has played 731 additional minutes than Curry this season, or an additional 20 games at 36 MPG. While I think his shoulder is affecting him to some degree, lots of guys are banged up at this point...including Curry. So I guess I'm just wondering if it's as simple as Tatum just being tired. Especially given the load he is asked to carry on both ends. I put it out there on the mentality thread, but is there a way to take some burden off him defensively to keep him fresher for offense at the end of games? Or is that just so against their DNA that it's not worth the risk?

Following up on this and cross posting from game thread. I think that’s at least part of the problem. Perhaps there’s no solution at this point….


2022 playoff minutes leaders:

Tatum: 943
Brown: 876
Horford: 776
Thompson: 751
Curry: 724
Wiggins: 723
Smart: 722


Ime has basically decided Tatum will sit in garbage time otherwise he’s playing. I get the desire, especially when the bench isn’t playing well.

But those 4th quarter performances aren’t an accident. I’m definitely in the “explanation not excuse camp”. He can’t keep doing this to Tatum (and Brown to a lesser degree) and expect All NBA performances for 45 minutes a game against a fresher team.

Lebron has occasionally been able pull off these super human full game efforts but he also managed to find ways to rest on D for chunks of the game. Plus he’s Lebron.

I don’t find much fault with Tatum for potentially needing 4 minutes off each half to do everything he’s asked to do at a high level.
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
23,202
Klay is one of the most likeable players in the NBA, and the push-off on Smart followed by the sneering shake of the head was some incredible villainy.
 

jezza1918

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Jul 19, 2005
2,936
South Dartmouth, MA
I'll be honest, I'm pretty bummed today. I thought I'd be mad, I thought I'd be bitter, I thought I'd be cussing out the refs. Instead, I just feel like we've blown a great opportunity to bring in a banner. I know the series isn't over and this team has proven resilient. I fully believe that we can come back, but I also recognize that the odds are stacked against us.

In December we were wondering if this core was something we could build around, if the Jays could play together, if Marcus could be a point guard on a contender, if Rob could take the leap, if any of the recent draftees could be a part of the rotation. For 5+ months it felt like we were sitting on a contender, on a foundation that we could build on for years to come. Now some of those questions are creeping back into the picture.

I'm probably just being overly dramatic on the morning after a loss, and I look forward to the team proving me wrong on Thursday.
I think you are being properly dramatic, but the drama is slightly misplaced. Those questions aren't really creeping back into the picture, they are two wins away from being NBA CHAMPIONS. This year. Right now. Still. And I think the Jays still have room to grow, as does Rob, and Marcus as a PG probably gets a little better too. The drama lies in the fact that while I truly believe my last sentence will come to fruition, that is by no means a guarantee they waltz right back here 2 or 3 times in next half dozen years. In all honesty, despite them getting better...just the nature of sports leads me to believe the chances of this crew being two wins away from a title ever again are less than 50/50.
In a less - diarrhea of the mouth response - Five months ago the question was "can they ever win together?" I think they have definitively answered that question in the affirmative..."will they ever win together" is the lingering one.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
25,295
Klay is one of the most likeable players in the NBA, and the push-off on Smart followed by the sneering shake of the head was some incredible villainy.
Meh. It was an offensive foul that was missed. Tatum pushes off all the time too. Thing is...HE gets called for it sometimes.
 

jezza1918

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Jul 19, 2005
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South Dartmouth, MA
Following up on this and cross posting from game thread. I think that’s at least part of the problem. Perhaps there’s no solution at this point….


2022 playoff minutes leaders:

Tatum: 943
Brown: 876
Horford: 776
Thompson: 751
Curry: 724
Wiggins: 723
Smart: 722


Ime has basically decided Tatum will sit in garbage time otherwise he’s playing. I get the desire, especially when the bench isn’t playing well.

But those 4th quarter performances aren’t an accident. I’m definitely in the “explanation not excuse camp”. He can’t keep doing this to Tatum (and Brown to a lesser degree) and expect All NBA performances for 45 minutes a game against a fresher team.

Lebron has occasionally been able pull off these super human full game efforts but he also managed to find ways to rest on D for chunks of the game. Plus he’s Lebron.

I don’t find much fault with Tatum for potentially needing 4 minutes off each half to do everything he’s asked to do at a high level.
I guess I probably shouldve posted my response here and not the game thread? But ill do some crossposting as well:

Agree. Tatum has now played about 5.5 more games worth of minutes than Curry over the course of the last two months...and while I don't have enough of an eye to say this with certainty, my guess is he's shouldering a larger defensive load as well. Is it the entire explanation for the 4th quarter performances? Absolutely not. Is it even half of the "explanation" pie chart? Who knows. But IMO it's definitely a measurable part of the explanation.
 

coremiller

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Jul 14, 2005
5,886
Klay is one of the most likeable players in the NBA, and the push-off on Smart followed by the sneering shake of the head was some incredible villainy.
Part of the context there of course is that Smart is one of the most physical, handsy defenders in the league, and also one of the biggest floppers, and the Warriors players probably feel (rightly or wrongly) that Smart has been getting away with a lot. So when the Warriors get one over on Smart they let him know about it.