Change of Address for Kevin Love - How About Causeway Street?
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Exactly. I know you guys don't really see it as such but a lot of Wolves' fans see this past season as pretty successful. The mindset was that they would be able to draft/sign a few solid bench players and maybe sneak into the playoffs next year in the hopes that it would be enough for them to sign Love.DrewDawg said:
Trading away Love is going to damage all the good will this season has built up and it's going to set back their playoff hopes on top of that, probably by at least a few years. Coupled with the mismanagement of past regimes and it's just a really shitty situation that Love has forced them into.
DrewDawg said:
But they pretty much have to trade him, and if there's no top 5 pick being offered, they're going to have to take the best offer out there. Let's say the Celtics and Lakers win 1-2 in the lottery and both want to keep the pick. Then it's a matter of deciding between the Brooklyn/Sullinger package and offers like Chandler Parsons/Omer Asik. And the Brooklyn/Sullinger pakcage is similar to what Orlando got for Dwight Howard, in a very similar situation.
MakMan44 said:
A bit of a quibble, but they brought it on themselves by not signing him for the additional year in his last deal and saving that for Rubio. It was obvious from that moment that he would leave as soon as he could.
Yeah, that's completely true. My quoted was meant as more from a fan's perspective. The narrative of the offseason was upgrading to make the playoffs, letting Love help pick the coach and praying that it was enough to get him to stay. To be fair, I'm not really surprised this is the way it's turning out but I really did have a lot of fun watching them play this year when they were playing well and it sucks that next season is very likely fucked because of this.jon abbey said:
Again, you guys know the NBA better than I do but, if they do keep him, couldn't they look to sign and trade him? From what I understand, the Wolves still would be able to sign him to the biggest contract next season, unless they trade him now. Why would keeping him through next season automatically mean they get nothing?Rudy Pemberton said:
It depends. Lee can replace a decent amount of Love's production. He is a bad defender and doesn't have Love's shooting range. However he is very good around the basket and rebounds decently too.BigSoxFan said:
If the TWolves are looking to build on last season, Lee and Barnes might get them a shot at the playoffs next year. If they are looking to rebuild, then the Warriors aren't really a viable trading partner.
Barnes struggled this season but it was his second year in the NBA. There are plenty of star players who also took a few seasons before making the leap and he has some of the skills to do the same. Sullinger is better than him but Barnes has way more upside than Olynyk imho.moondog80 said:
DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Not get off track too much, but I doubt there are very many stars who had as bad a two year start as Barnes. If any. His combined PER is 10.4. Which is to say, I don't think he helps the GS offer much, if at all. He's a throw-in, like Gerald Green in the Garnett deal.
You mean average PER. Its his average. I dont love PER but if you want to use it, Joe Johnson had an average PER of 11.7 his first two seasons too. He turned out to be pretty good.moondog80 said:
The latest scuttlebutt is that Love's two preferred destinations are Golden State and Chicago, the only two playoff teams that have been mentioned as possible destinations.
The situation will almost certainly percolate (and the number of potential suitors will likely expand) until June 26 as the Wolves do their best tocreate a bidding war.
The situation will almost certainly percolate (and the number of potential suitors will likely expand) until June 26 as the Wolves do their best tocreate a bidding war.
I do not profess to be any sort of expert, especially in advanced metrics. But it's no secret that I like Kevin Love. Here's why:
1. The man is a big, big, big time rebounder. 12.5 per game this year. 12.2 for his career. 13.7 per game over the past four seasons. Elite rebounder. And you can never have too much rebounding.
2. Can hit the three. He's not Ray Allen or Stephen Curry, but for a big man he's pretty darned good. He's a career 36.2% three point shooter. He shoots 81.5% from the line for his career. Excellent shooter and scorer.
3. Very good passer. 4.4 assists per game this past year with not much around him. And not just the assist stat - he's just a very good passer, period.
4. #8 in the NBA in offensive rating, per basketball-reference.com.
5. #3 in win shares in the NBA per basketball-reference.com.
6. #3 in the NBA in PER, per basketball-reference.com.
What I don't like is that he is a liability on the defensive end of the floor. But of the guys coming up in the draft, how many will turn out to be 26 point, 13 rebound, 4 assist, good-shooting, good-passing players who are top 5 in the NBA in PER? Um….most likely zero. Maybe one. Maybe.
I know he's not the perfect player. Slow, can't jump, not a good defender. But other than LeBron and Durant, everyone has a hole in his game.
1. The man is a big, big, big time rebounder. 12.5 per game this year. 12.2 for his career. 13.7 per game over the past four seasons. Elite rebounder. And you can never have too much rebounding.
2. Can hit the three. He's not Ray Allen or Stephen Curry, but for a big man he's pretty darned good. He's a career 36.2% three point shooter. He shoots 81.5% from the line for his career. Excellent shooter and scorer.
3. Very good passer. 4.4 assists per game this past year with not much around him. And not just the assist stat - he's just a very good passer, period.
4. #8 in the NBA in offensive rating, per basketball-reference.com.
5. #3 in win shares in the NBA per basketball-reference.com.
6. #3 in the NBA in PER, per basketball-reference.com.
What I don't like is that he is a liability on the defensive end of the floor. But of the guys coming up in the draft, how many will turn out to be 26 point, 13 rebound, 4 assist, good-shooting, good-passing players who are top 5 in the NBA in PER? Um….most likely zero. Maybe one. Maybe.
I know he's not the perfect player. Slow, can't jump, not a good defender. But other than LeBron and Durant, everyone has a hole in his game.
Seems to me that people are underestimating the cost of Love, particularly in regards to the Golden State possibility. Given that they don't have a first round pick they can deal until 2020, I think they're looking at Thompson, Barnes, and Lee for Love, with some body like Buddinger or Martin going to Golden State as well. The bloom's off Barnes enough that he's not going to bring back Love on his own, and I don't think David Lee is enough of a selling point to offset that.
If the C's offer the #4 pick this year, their 1st rounder in 2016 (leaving them with the Nets pick that year) and Minny's choice of Sullinger or KO, no other team can touch that, right? That still leaves the re-signing issue, but at least Boston would be in the driver's seat in terms of getting the Wolves' attention.
Grin&MartyBarret said:
Lee and Barnes could well be enough. It all depends on which/how many teams Love indicates he is willing to sign an extension with. If the list is short, that will significantly undermine Minnesota's leverage (unless they can find a GM foolish enough to role the dice and trade for Love without a commitment.)
It will be interesting to see what kind of assets MN really wants. If the goal is build a championship contender then the mainstream answer is draft picks, the higher the better. But they could just be looking to be respectable. As Zach Lowe has pointed out in some of his recent writing, loosing a superstar and rebuilding is really really hard even when you win the trade - see Orlando. MN has been rebuilding for forever. Maybe Flip reasons that there fans cannot withstand another complete reset.
TheRooster said:
There are teams that can come close. Phoenix can offer Dragic or Bledsoe, one of the Morris twins, Frye and 2 picks this year. Houston can offer Parsons, Asik, Terrance Jones and picks. The Lakers, if they land in the top 3, can offer that pick.
According to the trade machine, Sully, Wallace, Chris Johnson and draft picks will work under the cap:
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=n7g9bze
Chicago can straight up trade picks and Boozer to make salaries match:
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=l958d93
Let's go Trader Danny, make this happen (if we fall out of the top 5)!
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=n7g9bze
Chicago can straight up trade picks and Boozer to make salaries match:
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=l958d93
Let's go Trader Danny, make this happen (if we fall out of the top 5)!
Grin&MartyBarret said:
The Suns have stated many times that they will match any offer for Bledsoe in free agency. Minn would be taking a huge risk with Dragic fleeing after one season (player option for 15-16). That said, I could see a deal centered around Alex Len and draft choices (their own 2014 + Indiana's 2014?). Remember, they will have $14M+ coming off the books with Okafor's deal expiring so I don't believe they will have to match salaries.
The picks replace Sullinger, Boozer replaces Wallace, and is a much better player as well as a 15M expiring.jsinger121 said:
Love is a very good player, but some of his raw stats are misleading because of how the team is built and the sheer number of minutes he plays a game.ivanvamp said:
I'm Using player tracking for this, mostly looking at players with 30+ MPG: http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingRebounding.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=REB_COL_PCT&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&filters=MIN*GE*30
He's good, but not one of the best in the percentage of rebound chances he turns into a rebound. He also fattens up his numbers with uncontested rebounds.
His scoring efficiency isn't elite, but it is again very good, and his range helps open up driving lanes.
He's one of the better passing big men in the league, not Noah good, but on par with the Gasol Brothers.
Now the bad news.
Defense however.
He appears to be possibly the single worst defender at the rim in the NBA. The other contenders are Tristan Thompson and THaddeus Young, but both faced about 60% of the attempts per game of Love, who not only gives up an insane percentage at the rim, but also gives it up on over 9 attempts a game. (some of this is likely comes from something that is part of Love's rep. He: 1. Likes to admire shots so his guy is uncovered any time he misses. 2. Likes to set up to get the defensive rebound at the expense of actually covering his man.) Basically if you start Love he's probably guaranteed to be giving back double digits every night just on dunks and layups.
Lastly he'll make 20M by himself if extended, if Rondo re-signed that is most of the cap, and a team built around Rondo and Love needs at least 1 more superstar to even be a borderline contender, which they won't be able to get.
Minnesota might take Wallace if he comes attached to the Pierce/Garnett picks from Brooklyn. For a team that recognizes that its immediate window is closed, those picks are probably worth a lot. Again, I don't think the Celtics will have a hard time putting together a "winning" package for Love; they have tons of assets and can build any number of packages with them. The problem, as HRB mentioned earlier, is convincing Love to say (I think he says no).
No way I am including Wallace at the cost of those Nets picks. You don't need the cap space next year and after 2014-2015 he becomes an expiring.Devizier said:
I agree the challenge is not building an attractive package for Minny, but rather making Boston a preferred destination for Love. Melo could actually be helpful on that front. If Houston thinks they can get Melo, Morey will need cap space and Asik would be on the move. That trade exception would be key. Rondo, Bradley, Green, Love and Asik, with one of Sullinger and Olynk off the bench, along with Wallace and whomever you sign with the mid-level is a playoff team in the East. Wallace and Green's contracts also means you will have cap space to add another piece in the near future. Plus you have all of those Nets picks to add talent.
Option #1 is the only realistic option here(and Minnesota likely isn't taking that offer)ALiveH said:
It's getting severly underplayed, but let's just say Love wants to be in Boston(I doubt it), he's not signing an extension.
The maximum extension he can sign this summer is a 2/37 added on to his current deal, and to even get that he has to waive his opt-out option.
If he wait til next summer and opts out, he can get a 5/109 deal from whatever team he's currently on, or a 4/82 deal from a new team.
An extension makes zero financial sense for him, even if it were from his ideal landing spot.
If the pick is outside the top 3, I'm very much in favor of a package built around the pick and Jared Sullinger for Love. Kevin Love has his faults as a player, but I think they can be hidden in the right system. He needs to play with a rim protector, to be sure, but you can find those guys outside of the lottery, whether it's by trading for Asik or finding a gem like Ibaka late in the first round. Love is a defense-bending offensive chess piece, and his rebounding and passing make him a franchise cornerstone type player, in my opinion. A Rondo-Green-Love foundation is a playoff team in the East, but they'd be an All-Star wing player away from being a championship contender. I think there's a decent chance they can get that guy eventually with one of the Brooklyn picks, either directly or via trade. For me, Love falls into the category of "get him if you can and fill in the rest later". He's clearly a max guy, so there's no worry of overpaying him. Of course, whether Boston can offer the best package, or whether Love is willing to sign here are two separate questions.
All things considered - offense, defense, rebounding, etc. - what is the likelihood that a player the Celtics take in the first round of the draft, *even if it's the #1 pick*, turns out to be as good a player as Kevin Love - a perennial all-star and not just the we-like-him-so-we're-voting-for-him-even-though-he's-crappy kind of all-star?
25%? 50? 75%?
25%? 50? 75%?
Swedgin said:
I'm with you. Wallace's contract is not so onerous anymore. The Celtics would be better hanging on to the picks for 1) a second move, if an extension is contingent on it or 2) future use. I'm just pointing out that the Celtics can build any number of packages for Love.
But that's not the question. The question is, would you rather have Sullinger and Embid (or Parker or Wiggins) plus capspace, or Love and bupkis? Love doesn't just cost you the pick. He costs you at least one more decent young player plus cap flexibility going forward. Also, if you trade for Love, you are pretty much committed to paying Rondo. Otherwise, what's the point?
Efforts to build Rome in a day usually fail.
Hard to say, almost everyone in this class will be better defensively, with the chance to be much, much better. Offensively probably no-one in this class will be as good. Rebounding there could be some guys as good.ivanvamp said:
However as Brick correctly notes, it's more than just comparing Love to the pick, Sullinger is part of it, and $20M a year in cap space.
So the real question is can you make a better team with Sullinger, whoever you pick and a max free agent in 2015? I'd say yes.
Kevin Love is as noted above and in other threads a tough guy to quantify, he's an All-Star, but he is an entirely one side of the court player, and he depends on volume to put up a lot of his numbers. I'd rather have a player who got less points and rebounds but did so more efficiently and played defense, which I think you can get out of several guys in the top 5.
I'd certainly not trade a top 3 pick for him with Sullinger, I think even if they don't end up putting up the raw numbers he does (though Parker might, he's got Melo 2.0 written all over him) all 3 should bring a lot to the table and for so much less money.
Brickowski said:
I honestly don't understand this, particularly coming from you. You preach every year at the draft about how teams can find All-Star caliber players late in the first round and in the second round, and now suddenly the Celtics would have Love, Rondo and nothing else. They have 6 first round picks in the next 3 years--with an outside shot at having 7. They are loaded with assets. The idea that Ainge is going to acquire Love, pay Rondo, and then stop building simply isn't true.
Cellar-Door said:
Who is the max free agent who is coming here to play with Jared Sullinger and a 2nd year player? Maybe you can convince somebody, who knows.
But it's not like trading for Kevin Love paralyzes the Celtics flexibility. Again, the Celtics have a ton of assets in the form of first round picks. In the past year alone first round picks have been traded for Kyle Lowry. Loul Deng, Martin Gortat, Jrue Holiday, and the cap space that allowed Golden State to sign Andre Iguodala. Why people think acquiring Kevin Love is going to cripple a franchise that owns 6 first round picks in the next 3 years is beyond me.
Cellar-Door said:
Well, there's the rub. In the abstract you're surely right. Love alone is obviously not as good as Sullinger, the pick, and a max free agent who is Love's equivalent. But who would that max free agent be? They're not just floating around to be snatched. The Celtics have a certain sexiness to them because of history, but they're also a bottom rung team in a cold weather city, a city that fairly or not doesn't have a great rep among African Americans -- in other words, maybe Miami or the Lakers or possibly even the Knicks (some years) can say we're not going to trade assets we'll just wait to sign whomever we want for no compensation, but the Celtics can't assume they'll attract anyone...and, if not, then you turn into Detroit throwing money at mid-level guys.
edit: or, in other words, like GMB said...too slow on the trigger! I'll just add that it comes down to whether you think Kevin Love is a guy who truly deserves a max contract or if you think him closer to Josh Smith. To me it's crystal clear he's much closer to elite status and well worthy of a max contract. Much as I think criticisms of LeBron or CP3 or whomever for not having carried a team to a championship are lame as hell, Love not even getting his teams into the playoffs does cause hesitation, I will admit. But I'd still move beyond that hesitation - by all metrics he's an elite player, top 5-7 in the league.
Brickowski said:
Maybe. What if Minnesota simply wants the #3 pick (say that's what Boston has), plus a first-rounder next year, plus one contract that can help them moving forward (Wallace)? You don't need to move Sullinger then, perhaps. Now, obviously I would imagine Minnesota would want that, but who knows. Maybe they don't like Sullinger. I mean, if the price is three first rounders, Sullinger, and some other serious piece, then you pass. But if you can get him for this year's top first rounder, and another one in 2015, and Wallace, then yeah.
Three way: Boston, New Orleans, Minnesota
Boston gives: top 1st round pick in 2014, Sullinger, Bass, Rondo
Boston gets: Love, Jrue Holiday
Minnesota gives: Love
Minnesota gets: Ryan Anderson, Brandon Bass, Boston's 1st round pick in 2014, New Orleans' second round pick in 2014
New Orleans gives: Anderson, Holiday, 2nd round pick in 2014
New Orleans gets: Sullinger, Rondo
Why Boston does it: First, they get the best player in the trade in Love. Cornerstone player (I know some here don't agree with that, of course). Second, I assume they can't afford Love, Rondo, and a third outstanding player because Rondo's contract is up after the 14-15 season, and he'll want max money, most likely. So they deal him now and get a point guard with good potential at reasonable money, signed for two years past Rondo. This frees them up to add another star player either this season or next.
Why Minnesota does it: Love is going to be gone, so they need to get something for him. A top 3 (or 5, whatever it is) pick is a great start. Ryan Anderson is probably better than Sullinger as a replacement for Love at the PF position, and he's only making $8 million. Bass is a useful bench piece whose contract expires after 14-15, so going into next year he becomes a nice trade chip. And they get an additional 2nd rounder as well.
Why New Orleans does it: They buy "low" on Rondo, believing that he is still a star, and he can help Davis reach a higher level still. And they'll be able to afford to sign him long-term because they just cleared a bunch of money in this trade (Anderson's $8.5 million and Holliday's $9.2 million vs. Sullinger's $1.4 million and Rondo's $11.9 million), and Davis isn't making that much, especially for a megastar. Sullinger is a very nice replacement for Anderson, and would make for a really nice complement to Davis. Sully isn't a good rim protector but they can afford it because Davis is a monster. It allows Sully to score and rebound and play positional defense, while Davis dominates the rim. This is all about (1) improving big at the PG position, and (2) clearing some money for the future.
I think the biggest risk here is clearly Boston's. And that may be why they don't do it. They'd have to believe that (1) Love is a superstar building block, (2) Holiday can become a terrific NBA point guard, and (3) the money that is freed up by the Rondo/Holiday exchange can net them a 3rd player who qualifies as a star. Plus, they would hope that with their remaining picks over the next few years (which they'd still have in abundance) could either be used to acquire that third player or that they could strike gold with a deal to add a rim protector (Asik or Ibaka?) and a 3rd star.
(Oh, and the trade works via NBA trade machine)
TheRooster said:
The one pick in the top 8 the Celtics absolutely cannot end up with is #4 FWIW.
As to the GS idea, I don't see it as a good fit (unless they have some future picks I don't know about?)
Lee is a solid player, but is already over 30 and making 30M over the next 2 years. Barnes is not a good basketball player. An optimistic outcome for him is looking like a Jeff Green-type career, but he definitely could end up worse than that. I suppose maybe the Iguodala signing and Mark Jackson messed him up this year, but he was terrible.
That duo might be a bit more current value than the Celtics Sullinger/picks offer, but Minnesota would be foolish to prefer that package.
You can also add all-star players with picks in the top 6. I simply don't think that Love is the right player to help them get to the promised land-- and I don't think Rondo is either. For starters, Love has never appeared in an NBA playoff game.
No, Ainge won't stop building if they acquire Love. But it makes a good 2015 free agent much less likely, and it also takes them out of the lottery with their own pick in 2015. Then, long term, you have to decide whether to pay all these good young players you've drafted or pay luxury tax.
I'd rather rebuild the way that OKC or Indiana have done it than via the big splash, the way Houston has tried to do it (and has failed miserably).
Brickowski said:
Huh? You realize that OKC was incredibly fortunate to hit it out of the park with their #2 (Durant), #4 (Westbrook) and #3 (Harden) picks in three straight drafts?
OKC is the exact opposite of your argument that you can build a team through late first round and early second round picks.
Think Ibaka, Serge.
But we're not talking about trading a late first round pick. We're talking about trading a top 6 pick for an injury prone player who has never appeared in a playoff game, as opposed to shooting for the next Durant, Westbrook or Harden.
And I'm really tired of the "no free agents will come" arguments. They will come if you pay them, and the 2015 class is pretty strong. And on the flip side of that argument, what free agents will want to come to play with Love, a volume shooter who plays poor defense on the ball, and a prick like Rondo, whose teammates don't like him very much? Maybe that has changed, but maybe not.
If they re-sign Rondo as well, that's not all that unattractive for a max guy, even if Green picks up his option they're only at about 23M, add in the two rookies from this year and you are at about 29 or so that leaves a projected 37M so Rondo and a second max whether by signing or trade fits easily.Grin&MartyBarret said:
If Rondo isn't re-signed you are looking at space for two max deals, much like Miami had, but instead of Wade, you would have a top 8 player from this draft, this year's 17, two firsts next year, and a ton more picks, that makes for a lot of sign and/or trade options. The ability to pair up with the guy you want is worth more than location as seen in past years (Miami, KG here).
Most players go where the money is, they don't need as good a player as Love to break even.Tony C said:
I don't think Love is a top 5 player. Partially because I don't trust the metrics entirely on Love, in part because the current metrics don't accurately measure defense at all. Love is a TERRIBLE defensive player, and none of the Metrics are all that good at showing it, because most of the metrics are either team based, or based on the steals/blocks stats. I think as player tracker improves we will see a better way of measuring defense and we will be better able to evaluate Love.
As an example DWS has Love getting win shares every year he's been the league despite being widely known as one of the worst players in the league, this year he was in the 40 in DWS? That's crazy.
If we had a better gauge on NBA defense I think we'd Love with negatives there (much like dWAR in baseball) and it would have a big impact on where he was ranked.
Edit- Adding Tyson Chandler's estimation of Love's defense:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKto9xsrNQo
heh...great quote from Chandler.
the flip is this:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-question-of-kevin-love/
In re top 5...well, he's certainly top 10. And, for example, I'd take Love over Harden in a heartbeat. (Don't even bring up defense, there!)
As for players following the money....a worthy max player will have plenty of options
Anyway, interesting debate. I do agree the Wolves not even squeaking into the playoffs does give me pause, but as the +/- figures show, he sure did his part.
the flip is this:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-question-of-kevin-love/
In re top 5...well, he's certainly top 10. And, for example, I'd take Love over Harden in a heartbeat. (Don't even bring up defense, there!)
As for players following the money....a worthy max player will have plenty of options
Anyway, interesting debate. I do agree the Wolves not even squeaking into the playoffs does give me pause, but as the +/- figures show, he sure did his part.
I think they're closer defensively than you think, given their positions. It's easier to cover up for a bad shooting guard defensively than it is for a bad big man.Tony C said:
As I've discussed previously, I wouldn't put Love in my top 10, and I'm probably among the 3-4 most statistically inclined posters here. He's still a top 20 guy, probably top 15, but I'd rather have Harden certainly.
The highest profile FA to sign in Boston over the past 25 years were Xavier McDaniel, Dominique's corpse and Pervis Ellison. We had to acquire a HOFer to convince Garnett to leave Iceland and had to include a 15% trade kicker to Mark Blount's MLE to beg him to stay.
There's a good reason why Ainge continually stockpiles large salary slots. He recognizes the only way to acquire an impact player aside from getting lucky in the draft is by having these large slots to move in creative deals for a player who is already locked into a contract. No high profile FA is signing in Boston, never has never will.....Ainge understands this.
End of "we can sign a big FA" rant. Carry on
There's a good reason why Ainge continually stockpiles large salary slots. He recognizes the only way to acquire an impact player aside from getting lucky in the draft is by having these large slots to move in creative deals for a player who is already locked into a contract. No high profile FA is signing in Boston, never has never will.....Ainge understands this.
End of "we can sign a big FA" rant. Carry on
I'm not sure where I would slot in on the "statistically inclined posters list", but I think I'd take Love over Harden. I may be biased by recently seeing Harden roll over on D in the playoffs, but he really is a huge liability out there.
I understand the logic of preferring a bad defensive guard to a bad defensive big man, but Houston had Howard/Asik, and Harden's D was still a major issue. I know Love stinks on D too, but I'll take Love and his extra rebounding over Harden if I had to pick.
I understand the logic of preferring a bad defensive guard to a bad defensive big man, but Houston had Howard/Asik, and Harden's D was still a major issue. I know Love stinks on D too, but I'll take Love and his extra rebounding over Harden if I had to pick.
Well, I certainly agree you won't see Kevin Love roll over on D in the playoffs. I tried to watch a T-Wolves playoff game, but I just couldn't find it.radsoxfan said:
Houston has Asik/Howard and Harden's defense was such a big issue they had home court advantage in the first round in the hardest conference in memory.
Yes Harden's defense is an issue. James Harden has never missed the playoffs however. Kevin Love has never made the playoffs. At some point, that starts to mean something...
It doesn't mean Love is a loser, or that he's bad, but there's a discontinuity when one of the most dominant advanced metrics guys can't go above .500 or make the playoffs, ever in his career. There's basically no precedent for it in NBA history. It's a team game, but it's also a superstar game. Kevin Garnett dragged some truly terrible Timberwolves teams to the playoffs. That's what superstars do - they win titles when surrounded by two or three other great players, and they make the playoffs when they're not. They don't go six years without going above .500 and missing the playoffs every year. At least not historically.
I think that's where the argument ends. On the defense, I'd take minor issue -- Love is bad but not as bad as Harden -- he tries but is limited. But as his +/- numbers show his team wins with him on the floor. The Wolves problem was when he wasn't playing. Harden is worse imho, guards just blowing by him bad/major liability bad. The flip, though, is I completely agree it's unprecedented for a stud player to not even get his team into the playoffs. I mean Lebron was killed for not getting the shitty except for him Cavs to the championship...but they won regular season games. I don't know how to explain Love not even being able to get his team into the playoffs. Obviously there are caveats -- it's the Western Conference, Adelman was AWOL this year/injuries other years, the supporting cast awful every year, etc. -- but, yeah, still....
As I said, Ainge needed to acquire a HOFer in Ray Allen on convince KG to come to Boston and sign the extension. He initially refused.Rudy Pemberton said:Garnett wasn't a free agent, but he had to agree to come here, and he did. I don't really bit the argument that a top FA will never come to boston. NBA free agency hasnt been around that long, and how often have the C's had significant cap room? And hell, what about Shaq?
This is why none of the "albatross" contracts Ainge takes on whether it be Raef or Ratliff or Gerald Wallace not only don't hinder us in any way they are a necessity to get large deals done like KG's.
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