Cora, Cora, Cora!

Merkle's Boner

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I'm on board with criticisms of the team's efforts and fundamentals. But people speculating about what Story needs to do could stand to get some perspective. There's simply no way you know better than him what he needs to be ready. And labeling the decision "unilateral" is pure speculation; were you on the conference call with Story, Bloom, the medical team, and whoever else may weigh in there? Of course not. I get that it's been a frustrating week but we don't get to start telling strangers what they need to do for their personal health and well-being just because the Blue Jays were in town.
I think it’s an interesting discussion. Is he the only one who knows what he needs to be ready? Does the medical staff have no say? Is there nothing to the idea of pushing yourself a little harder in order to be with the big club for the biggest series of the year, even if you’re not 100%. It sure seemed like Cora, a guy who never has anything bad to say about any of his players, was disappointed Story had elected to stay in Worcester for the entire allotted time. I mean, earlier in the week, he certainly implied that Story would be available for the series. Yeah, circumstances change but I think it’s fair to question what role Bloom and Cora had in the decision making process. And Story hit 2 or 3 homers this weekend.
 

BroodsSexton

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I mean like 2/3 of this forum said "hold" maybe only selling off excess pieces which is what Bloom did. Like...I can get the frustration but most of us didn't want to pick a lane, so I don't know if we can really get on the Sox for doing the same
Isn’t a borderline wildcard team the definition of “hold”? You have a shot of catching lightning in a bottle in the second half and anything can happen in the playoffs so you don’t really want to blow it up. But you could also crap out so it doesn’t really make sense to go all in…
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I think it’s an interesting discussion. Is he the only one who knows what he needs to be ready? Does the medical staff have no say? Is there nothing to the idea of pushing yourself a little harder in order to be with the big club for the biggest series of the year, even if you’re not 100%. It sure seemed like Cora, a guy who never has anything bad to say about any of his players, was disappointed Story had elected to stay in Worcester for the entire allotted time. I mean, earlier in the week, he certainly implied that Story would be available for the series. Yeah, circumstances change but I think it’s fair to question what role Bloom and Cora had in the decision making process. And Story hit 2 or 3 homers this weekend.
I saw the highlight of one of those HRs and it was on an 85 MPH cutter right down the middle. Which he won't be seeing in the major leagues.

I'm the one who has been banging the "Story is fragile" drum for quite some time so I don't have an issue with him taking the full allotment of time given to get ready to come back.
 

Manuel Aristides

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I think it’s an interesting discussion. Is he the only one who knows what he needs to be ready? Does the medical staff have no say? Is there nothing to the idea of pushing yourself a little harder in order to be with the big club for the biggest series of the year, even if you’re not 100%. It sure seemed like Cora, a guy who never has anything bad to say about any of his players, was disappointed Story had elected to stay in Worcester for the entire allotted time. I mean, earlier in the week, he certainly implied that Story would be available for the series. Yeah, circumstances change but I think it’s fair to question what role Bloom and Cora had in the decision making process. And Story hit 2 or 3 homers this weekend.
I just think, when you're starting your discussion with two hypothetical unanswerable questions, move to a vague idea, then say what the manager "seemed" to think and what he implied last week... you're just wildly speculating. Frankly I disagree; I don't think it's at all fair to speculate about something that is impossible for us to know and will always remain so and cues off an individual's personal experience/medical journey. It's not my cup of tea, but you do you. Not saying you're not entitled to your opinion, just wanted to have one voice in the thread that trusted an adult to make their own professional and medical decisions behind closed doors.
 

Humphrey

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Per the announcers it was scoring from second base. I'm not sure why you're being snarky, I'm simply stating a fact.
It makes sense that a team would review/practice a facet of the game that they'd only encounter a limited time during the season; which I would say undoubtedly Fenway's left/center field falls under that category.
 

LogansDad

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The idea that Cora and his staff have to spend time teaching basic fundamentals to supposed major league level players is pretty offensive.
Interesting post coming from your username. I don't watch football anymore, but do you not think that Bill Belichick and his staff are teaching fundamentals literally every day of practice?

There isn't a time in an athlete's life that they shouldn't be doing everything they can to get better.
 

jbupstate

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The indecision in picking a lane. If he thought this team was worth investing in, then go out and get players that could help them make the playoffs. If he didn’t believe they could make playoffs, sell off pieces that could get some decent prospects back in return.

What future chances were being hindered by buying at this deadline? You either could have acquired a SP with term left and look at it as a 2024 move or a cheaper rental such as Rich Hill to help in the short term.

Is Bloom going to continually horde his prospects or is he going to eventually figure out which ones to help the team on the field and which ones to deal for established talent? You can fault DD for a lot of things w/the farm, but one thing you can’t is he identified ones to trade. He did a great job in the Sale, Kimbrel, and Eovaldi deals.
You can’t hoard prospects until you have them. This time last year the doomsday fans were saying Bloom lucked in to Mayer (probably true although I believe that “was” a tank job season) and his picks were too focused on SS and weak.

Tremendously disappointing weekend as a fan. Team as a whole just played poorly while The Mustache and the Jays were on fire.

Now it’s going to be a ton of previously prepared articles for clicks and anti Bloom posts.

This offseason could be the beginning of a long window of success but Bloom is going to need to make some moves that require potentially overpaying or trading good young players for a better than good player(s). This will be the off-season that should make or break Bloom.
 

cornwalls@6

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Almost wonder if Cora gave Bloom an ultimatum, either Verdugo goes or I go....
I mean, it's possible that Cora may have that much of an outsized view of his importance to the organization, but I kind of doubt it. More likely fed up with the sloppy, undisciplined play, the very weak response to the trade deadline, and Verdugo's transgression lit the fuse. I know there's some recent history of a little bit of tension between the two, but I find the notion of that kind of ultimatum being given highly unlikely.
 

Fishercat

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Isn’t a borderline wildcard team the definition of “hold”? You have a shot of catching lightning in a bottle in the second half and anything can happen in the playoffs so you don’t really want to blow it up. But you could also crap out so it doesn’t really make sense to go all in…
Pretty much, at least that was my thought. You hope they go on a big run in the easier part of the schedule and that the current talent can continue the good they're doing. Even if Bloom went all in on the break, how many wins do we get on this stretch? Maybe a Snell saves them from a bullpen game and they get one of those. I just can't fault the pathway personally.

You can’t hoard prospects until you have them. This time last year the doomsday fans were saying Bloom lucked in to Mayer (probably true although I believe that “was” a tank job season) and his picks were too focused on SS and weak.

...

This offseason could be the beginning of a long window of success but Bloom is going to need to make some moves that require potentially overpaying or trading good young players for a better than good player(s). This will be the off-season that should make or break Bloom.
The danger on this, and I agree with you, is that often the guys who represent value will be those "hoarded" prospects. To your point, there wasn't much to hoard from 2019-2021...but it's worth noting that the 2019 system had four guys contributing to this year's roster in real manners. One is Triston Casas (#2)...then it's Jarren Duran (10), Kutter Crawford (20), and Brayan Bello (24). Our Top 5 was Chavis, Casas, Delbec, Darwinzon Hernandez, and Jay Groome. And it's hard to have it both ways. Sure, don't hoard prospects...but we have a 370 post thread on Noah Song who was 14th in the 2021 prospect rankings and just got returned. So like...it's tough to win with everyone.

To both your point and Red's point, a lot of the Sox success will hinge on identifying the prospects best used in trades and acqusitions and best used on the roster, but to do that you need guys to do this with. The Sox farm system is in a much better position to do this now than they were even six months ago, nevermind years ago. Let's see what he can do with it.
 

chawson

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What future chances were being hindered by buying at this deadline? You either could have acquired a SP with term left and look at it as a 2024 move or a cheaper rental such as Rich Hill to help in the short term.
Here's my answer to this. Anyone we acquired at the deadline would have bumped Crawford or Houck from the rotation in a week or two. I don't think there are many pitchers realistically available (i.e. not Verlander) at the deadline clearly that much better than Kutter Crawford that it was worth pushing him to what would essentially be a mop-up role, tanking his value to us.

In a week or two, the rotation will be Sale, Bello, Paxton, Crawford and Houck, with Whitlock and Pivetta in the pen. Let's say we had traded like, Bastardo and Bonaci for Hill. Then Sale comes back from the 60-day IL, which means we're already bumping one from the 40. Hill would bump someone else off. That's not that tough a loss; two of Bleier, Jacques, Llovera or Garza can go. But it also bumps one of those guys from the rotation, which is questionable.

The FO's thinking could be that it's worth more to us long-term to let Houck and Crawford finish the year as starters. In one sense, it would be good to know what we have when planning next year's rotation, and keep their innings up. In another, they look a lot more appealing in potential trades.

I don't know that there were a lot of pitchers available through '24 on the market, unless we were gonna give up a haul for Brady Singer or Mitch Keller. Trading a departing FA like Turner for a pre-arb guy like Edward Cabrera, or expendable prospects for Johan Oviedo, would have been terrific, because they're such valuable long-term assets that you just figure it out. Or, I suspect, someone else would have been traded on that day to make it all work.

It's worked out badly, of course, but on August 1st, getting swept at home by our direct rivals obviously looked an unlikely outcome, especially with Bichette on the shelf.
 
Mar 30, 2023
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Here's my answer to this. Anyone we acquired at the deadline would have bumped Crawford or Houck from the rotation in a week or two. I don't think there are many pitchers realistically available (i.e. not Verlander) at the deadline clearly that much better than Kutter Crawford that it was worth pushing him to what would essentially be a mop-up role, tanking his value to us.

In a week or two, the rotation will be Sale, Bello, Paxton, Crawford and Houck, with Whitlock and Pivetta in the pen. Let's say we had traded like, Bastardo and Bonaci for Hill. Then Sale comes back from the 60-day IL, which means we're already bumping one from the 40. Hill would bump someone else off. That's not that tough a loss; two of Bleier, Jacques, Llovera or Garza can go. But it also bumps one of those guys from the rotation, which is questionable.

The FO's thinking could be that it's worth more to us long-term to let Houck and Crawford finish the year as starters. In one sense, it would be good to know what we have when planning next year's rotation, and keep their innings up. In another, they look a lot more appealing in potential trades.

I don't know that there were a lot of pitchers available through '24 on the market, unless we were gonna give up a haul for Brady Singer or Mitch Keller. Trading a departing FA like Turner for a pre-arb guy like Edward Cabrera, or expendable prospects for Johan Oviedo, would have been terrific, because they're such valuable long-term assets that you just figure it out. Or, I suspect, someone else would have been traded on that day to make it all work.

It's worked out badly, of course, but on August 1st, getting swept at home by our direct rivals obviously looked an unlikely outcome, especially with Bichette on the shelf.
Tanner Houck gave up three hits and three walks in 1.1 IP this weekend, and showed a noticeable decline in velocity. There's a very good chance he doesn't start a game for the Red Sox for the rest of the year.

Not going after starting pitching reinforcements because you're getting back Tanner Houck, who is wildly inconsistent to begin with and hasn't pitched in two months, seems like pretty questionable idea.
 

soxin6

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Out of curiosity I checked, Fenway was 96-97 percent full for all three games of this series.

36,376
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Did you watch the games? The stands were full of Jays fans. There was lots of cheering this weekend because the Jays were winning. Let’s see what the attendance looks like next weekend.
 

jon abbey

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Did you watch the games?
I'm not even watching most Yankee games anymore, but attendance for MLB games is not an immediate reaction thing, most people buy tickets months in advance.
 

chawson

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Tanner Houck gave up three hits and three walks in 1.1 IP this weekend, and showed a noticeable decline in velocity. There's a very good chance he doesn't start a game for the Red Sox for the rest of the year.

Not going after starting pitching reinforcements because you're getting back Tanner Houck, who is wildly inconsistent to begin with and hasn't pitched in two months, seems like pretty questionable idea.
So? Is Houck's career suddenly derailed because he missed two months recovering from a non arm-related injury?

I was a Houck skeptic coming into the season, but he put up a 3.81 xFIP over 13 starts this year, which is terrific, with an elite 50% ground ball rate. His walk rate decreased and whiff rate increased over last year, despite being in the rotation. He faced 20+ batters in 9 of his 13 starts, which is something he didn't do once last year. Our team's defense has been bad; that's not on Houck.
 
Mar 30, 2023
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So? Is Houck's career suddenly derailed because he missed two months recovering from a non arm-related injury?

I was a Houck skeptic coming into the season, but he put up a 3.81 xFIP over 13 starts this year, which is terrific, with an elite 50% ground ball rate. His walk rate decreased and whiff rate increased over last year, despite being in the rotation. He faced 20+ batters in 9 of his 13 starts, which is something he didn't do once last year. Our team's defense has been bad; that's not on Houck.
The "so?" is that Tanner Houck does not appear remotely ready to effectively rejoin the Red Sox rotation any time soon, which is what your entire post was premised on.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The "so?" is that Tanner Houck does not appear remotely ready to effectively rejoin the Red Sox rotation any time soon, which is what your entire post was premised on.
One minor league rehab outing and all that is crystal clear? Since when is the first game back from injury for any player considered reflective of what they'll be able to contribute going forward? I think all anyone should be looking for out of Houck's first appearance is that he can pitch without fear of being slammed in the face by another fucking line drive. He's got up to 30 days to fine tune the rest.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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One minor league rehab outing and all that is crystal clear? Since when is the first game back from injury for any player considered reflective of what they'll be able to contribute going forward? I think all anyone should be looking for out of Houck's first appearance is that he can pitch without fear of being slammed in the face by another fucking line drive. He's got up to 30 days to fine tune the rest.
I don’t think the Boston Red Sox can wait 30 more days for SP help, though. By the time the cavalry returns, it may be too late. No one is questioning the ability of Houck and Whitlock to help long term, it’s the short term that’s the concern.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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One minor league rehab outing and all that is crystal clear? Since when is the first game back from injury for any player considered reflective of what they'll be able to contribute going forward? I think all anyone should be looking for out of Houck's first appearance is that he can pitch without fear of being slammed in the face by another fucking line drive. He's got up to 30 days to fine tune the rest.
And it wasn't his arm that was injured. I imagine he'll be back up to game speed in 2 more starts before he's back.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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And it wasn't his arm that was injured. I imagine he'll be back up to game speed in 2 more starts before he's back.
No question. That's why I said up to 30 days. My point was more that the expectation for his first rehab outing shouldn't be that he's 100% ready to rejoin the big league club.
 
Mar 30, 2023
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One minor league rehab outing and all that is crystal clear? Since when is the first game back from injury for any player considered reflective of what they'll be able to contribute going forward? I think all anyone should be looking for out of Houck's first appearance is that he can pitch without fear of being slammed in the face by another fucking line drive. He's got up to 30 days to fine tune the rest.
Yes. One 1.1. IP outing in which he was throwing 2 MPH slower than normal does in fact make it crystal clear that he will not be a Major League starting pitcher "a week or two" after the trade deadline.
 

Rovin Romine

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I think it’s an interesting discussion. Is he the only one who knows what he needs to be ready? Does the medical staff have no say? Is there nothing to the idea of pushing yourself a little harder in order to be with the big club for the biggest series of the year, even if you’re not 100%. It sure seemed like Cora, a guy who never has anything bad to say about any of his players, was disappointed Story had elected to stay in Worcester for the entire allotted time. I mean, earlier in the week, he certainly implied that Story would be available for the series. Yeah, circumstances change but I think it’s fair to question what role Bloom and Cora had in the decision making process. And Story hit 2 or 3 homers this weekend.
To drill down on the bolded a bit. . .Cora more than a bit passive-aggressive in terms of blaming the players. He'll place collective blame and so shelter himself from responsibility. "We need to execute our pitches," isn't really not calling someone out when one single pitcher imploded, and it's far from saying, "So and so tried hard, but I shouldn't have put them in that position." All that to say, yes, he does put blame on the players pretty consistently, but he often does not use specific names.

Mind you, I'm not saying he should call players out by names. What he should be doing (in conjunction with his coaching staff) is leading a prepared team onto the field. How he does that is entirely up to him, and the proof is in the pudding.

I think it's no secret that I view his days-off policy (as he implements it) as somewhat random and preplexing. So too his bullpen/PH usage. My main critique is that the "long-view," predictable roles, pre-scheduled days-off no matter who we are playing, approach hasn't seemed conducive to picking up marginal wins over marginal losses. But whatever - if they had a better record, the approach would justify itself. (And to be clear, I'm not personally invested in some kind of "best approach" philosophy. I don't in fact care what the approach actually is - run a tight clubhouse, run a loose clubhouse, whatever works. But it has to work.)

Here, I think it's fairly ironic to see Cora try to call out someone for sticking to the schedule instead of stepping in to try to win a key game. Because that's not the culture on this club.

I also think it's ironic that Cora's bemoaning a team that's not playing fundamental baseball well; I really have no idea the number of hours Cora and Staff drilled these guys in Spring Training or what they set up to carry into the season. But I do remember Cora going on and on and on about the WBC and helping P.R., etc. Which in and of itself is no bad thing. But get the job done. Cold showers, group prayer, hard-drinking nights on the town, nothing-but-drills, mental visualization. . .whatever works, man. Set the tone, vary it, but make it self-perpetuating in some way. Help the players help themselves.

It's like Cora's the guy saying, "Hey, I never thought I'd have to say this. . .but it's urgent now. So just play better. Now."
 
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joe dokes

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Yes. One 1.1. IP outing in which he was throwing 2 MPH slower than normal does in fact make it crystal clear that he will not be a Major League starting pitcher "a week or two" after the trade deadline.
You said good chance he doesn't start a game "for the rest of the year" based on his 1st rehab appearance. Which is it? There's quite a gap between 2 weeks and "the rest of the year."
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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You said good chance he doesn't start a game "for the rest of the year" based on his 1st rehab appearance. Which is it? There's quite a gap between 2 weeks and "the rest of the year."
“Start a game” seems like the key role here. I’m sure Houck pitches for the Sox this year, but will he assume a starters workload as he did before? That remains to be seen, just based on timing.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Yes. One 1.1. IP outing in which he was throwing 2 MPH slower than normal does in fact make it crystal clear that he will not be a Major League starting pitcher "a week or two" after the trade deadline.
Considering he made that rehab appearance a week after the deadline and all expectations are that he's going to need 2-3 rehab outings before they consider activating him, your "a week or two" after the deadline is a bullshit premise from the start. Of course, your original statement that I was responding to was that he wasn't going to be ready "any time soon" when no one has tried to claim he would be.
 
Mar 30, 2023
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Considering he made that rehab appearance a week after the deadline and all expectations are that he's going to need 2-3 rehab outings before they consider activating him, your "a week or two" after the deadline is a bullshit premise from the start. Of course, your original statement that I was responding to was that he wasn't going to be ready "any time soon" when no one has tried to claim he would be.
Could you at least make an effort to find out the context of what I was replying to? To wit:

Here's my answer to this. Anyone we acquired at the deadline would have bumped Crawford or Houck from the rotation in a week or two. I don't think there are many pitchers realistically available (i.e. not Verlander) at the deadline clearly that much better than Kutter Crawford that it was worth pushing him to what would essentially be a mop-up role, tanking his value to us.

In a week or two, the rotation will be Sale, Bello, Paxton, Crawford and Houck, with Whitlock and Pivetta in the pen. Let's say we had traded like, Bastardo and Bonaci for Hill. Then Sale comes back from the 60-day IL, which means we're already bumping one from the 40. Hill would bump someone else off. That's not that tough a loss; two of Bleier, Jacques, Llovera or Garza can go. But it also bumps one of those guys from the rotation, which is questionable.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Could you at least make an effort to find out the context of what I was replying to? To wit:
A week or two from now is different than a week or two after the deadline. A week or two from now, Houck will have made multiple rehab starts and probably will be back in the Boston rotation, presumably as an opener of sorts (maybe 3-4 innings, 50-60 pitches) until he's ramped back up to starter pitch counts. Same plan with Sale. Chawson is 100% correct on that (as long as everyone stays healthy).

Still doesn't excuse using a single outing to declare a pitcher useless. Particularly when that outing wasn't about being 100% effective so much as proving he can get on the mound and pitch at all.
 

chawson

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Yes. One 1.1. IP outing in which he was throwing 2 MPH slower than normal does in fact make it crystal clear that he will not be a Major League starting pitcher "a week or two" after the trade deadline.
Houck faced 12 batters in that outing. He typically faces around 20-24 as a starter. I have no idea what exactly he'd need to work on after a facial reconstruction surgery, but throwing 2 mph slower in his first game back from six weeks of rest isn't a big deal, and I don't think we should write him off.
 

trekfan55

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I hate what the Sox are doing this year.

I also balme Chaim Bloom for a lot of the team's faults (it's his job to build a better team after all).

But saying he should have sold is not as easy as we think. First, neither he nor us is as all in as Houston/Texas was when they gave up propsects that will end up in the top 10 in the Mets system.
It takes two to tango and it takes to GMs to finish a trade.
That being said, neither Bloom nor Cora can be expected to field a winning team with basically 3 starters. It is an impossible task.
 
Mar 30, 2023
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A week or two from now is different than a week or two after the deadline. A week or two from now, Houck will have made multiple rehab starts and probably will be back in the Boston rotation, presumably as an opener of sorts (maybe 3-4 innings, 50-60 pitches) until he's ramped back up to starter pitch counts. Same plan with Sale. Chawson is 100% correct on that (as long as everyone stays healthy).
So because Tanner Houck may be able to go 3-4 innings at the end of August if everything goes well (which, right now there's evidence to suggest that it may not) that's a good reason not to trade for a starting pitcher?

Still doesn't excuse using a single outing to declare a pitcher useless. Particularly when that outing wasn't about being 100% effective so much as proving he can get on the mound and pitch at all.
I did not declare him useless, nor did I say his career is derailed as Chawson said I did. I said that, given his current timeline and usage, there is a very good chance he does not return to the Red Sox this year as a starting pitcher. Are you guys capable of defending Bloom without twisting everyone's words?
 
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Mar 30, 2023
197
You said good chance he doesn't start a game "for the rest of the year" based on his 1st rehab appearance. Which is it? There's quite a gap between 2 weeks and "the rest of the year."
I said it was clear that he wouldn't be capable of being a Major League starter in a week or two based on his first rehab appearance, and I further said that there's a good chance he doesn't make any more starts in Boston this year. There is absolutely no contradiction in these statements, so I have absolutely no idea what you want here.
 

Patriot_Reign

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Interesting post coming from your username. I don't watch football anymore, but do you not think that Bill Belichick and his staff are teaching fundamentals literally every day of practice?

There isn't a time in an athlete's life that they shouldn't be doing everything they can to get better.
To your first point, when I signed up here it was originally to post in the media forum, at the time I was reading Michael Holley's book "Patriot Reign". As an avatar it seemed appropriate as he's a well known media guy. Growing up I lived & breathed Red Sox baseball but these days I'd put basketball first.

To your second point of course that's fair. But at the highest level after likely playing for at least half of your life don't think it's too much to ask players to know things like where the cutoff throw goes or understand situational base running.

edit: literally as I hit submit was listening to F&M and they had a caller call up about the same thing about sloppy play where the players should know better and they had the point that maybe it's more that the players have quit so it's on Cora to whip them into shape. Seems a fair possibility, though shitty.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I like Cora as a manager. I have no strong opinion on Bloom. But the fact is, if they finish out of the playoffs this year, one or both of them are gone.
My guess is that it would be Cora.
Well bringing in a new manager has proven to be the key to winning the WS so I’m all in!!!
 

Merkle's Boner

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Cora’s decision to take Bello out after 99 pitches is yet another example of this team focusing more on 2024 than winning this year. Bello gave them the best chance to win and they have babied him all year so that they could push him in games like this. And curious to see what Cora says to Duvall after that travesty of a play in RF, not that it probably would have made a difference.
 

bosox188

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Cora’s decision to take Bello out after 99 pitches is yet another example of this team focusing more on 2024 than winning this year. Bello gave them the best chance to win and they have babied him all year so that they could push him in games like this. And curious to see what Cora says to Duvall after that travesty of a play in RF, not that it probably would have made a difference.
I doubt I need to tell you this, but are very few pitchers going past 100 pitches in a game these days, especially young pitchers. And Winckowski has been pretty reliable lately, it's not like Cora was punting there. Unless you want someone like Dusty Baker to manage this team, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many managers who would be leaving Bello in past 100 pitches after 6+ quality innings.

Keep in mind, Bello started this season on the IL with forearm inflammation.
 

Auger34

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To drill down on the bolded a bit. . .Cora more than a bit passive-aggressive in terms of blaming the players. He'll place collective blame and so shelter himself from responsibility. "We need to execute our pitches," isn't really not calling someone out when one single pitcher imploded, and it's far from saying, "So and so tried hard, but I shouldn't have put them in that position." All that to say, yes, he does put blame on the players pretty consistently, but he often does not use specific names.
I am pretty much always on the side of managers/coaches taking all of the responsibility for failure with the media but this paragraph is pretty insane.

What you’re saying is passive-aggressive and not accepting responsibility is stuff that literally every manager says.

Tito was about as big of a players manager as there is and he said “We need to execute our pitches” or “we need to execute our plan” all of the damn time.

I know you’re not a Cora fan but this is really trying to find something to complain about
 

Yaz4Ever

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I'm not a Cora fan, but I don't have a problem with pulling Bello at about 100 pitches. Bob Gibson isn't in the league anymore and it's pretty common to be pulling guys earlier than we'd like. Bello is our future, so I'm good with saving his arm in a lost season. We're going nowhere this year, imho, so maybe I'm less concerned than some about "going for it" this year. I am, however, curious to know what's going on between Cora and Verdugo. It seems personal from my way outside the clubhouse view. Did he sleep with Mrs. Cora or something? I don't hear any Boston radio or anything and haven't read anything here, but are other players stating (or rumored to be saying) anything negative about either of them?
 

Tony Pena's Gas Cloud

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Cora’s decision to take Bello out after 99 pitches is yet another example of this team focusing more on 2024 than winning this year. Bello gave them the best chance to win and they have babied him all year so that they could push him in games like this. And curious to see what Cora says to Duvall after that travesty of a play in RF, not that it probably would have made a difference.
Um, no. I was at the game. He was losing control of his offspeed pitches in the 7th and he was fortunate that he was facing the hitters at the bottom of the order. Is there an issue with using Winckowski, Martin, and Jansen to protect a two run lead with seven outs to go? That's kind of how you draw it up, yes?
 

Rovin Romine

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I am pretty much always on the side of managers/coaches taking all of the responsibility for failure with the media but this paragraph is pretty insane.

What you’re saying is passive-aggressive and not accepting responsibility is stuff that literally every manager says.

Tito was about as big of a players manager as there is and he said “We need to execute our pitches” or “we need to execute our plan” all of the damn time.

I know you’re not a Cora fan but this is really trying to find something to complain about
Mind you, I'm not saying he should call players out by names. What he should be doing (in conjunction with his coaching staff) is leading a prepared team onto the field. How he does that is entirely up to him, and the proof is in the pudding.
 

joe dokes

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So because Tanner Houck may be able to go 3-4 innings at the end of August if everything goes well (which, right now there's evidence to suggest that it may not) that's a good reason not to trade for a starting pitcher?
No, there isn't "evidence." One start -- his first rehab start -- isn't "evidence" of anything, regardless of the result. (other than an injury bothering or not bothering the player -- that is useful information.)
 
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Benj4ever

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Nov 21, 2022
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Um, no. I was at the game. He was losing control of his offspeed pitches in the 7th and he was fortunate that he was facing the hitters at the bottom of the order. Is there an issue with using Winckowski, Martin, and Jansen to protect a two run lead with seven outs to go? That's kind of how you draw it up, yes?
I'm more upset at Winck/Wong for their strategy against Garcia (first batter Winck faced). Winck started with a 2-seamer up in the zone (lame check swing by batter), another two seemer middle-away (Garcia way late on pitch). Ok, so they throw a slider away to see if Garcia will chase - fine. But that sets up the 2-seamer at the top of the zone (or slightly above) on pitch 4. Instead they try for another slider chase. Whatever. But you still have to go back to the high 2-seamer, because he looked so bad against it. Instead, they go down in the zone, where the pitch is easier to handle. (then, of course, the bloop single)

Look, when a guy looks so bad on the fastball up, you've got to go back to it...but nothing! That hacked me off to no end!
 

simplicio

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I'm more upset at Winck/Wong for their strategy against Garcia (first batter Winck faced). Winck started with a 2-seamer up in the zone (lame check swing by batter), another two seemer middle-away (Garcia way late on pitch). Ok, so they throw a slider away to see if Garcia will chase - fine. But that sets up the 2-seamer at the top of the zone (or slightly above) on pitch 4. Instead they try for another slider chase. Whatever. But you still have to go back to the high 2-seamer, because he looked so bad against it. Instead, they go down in the zone, where the pitch is easier to handle. (then, of course, the bloop single)

Look, when a guy looks so bad on the fastball up, you've got to go back to it...but nothing! That hacked me off to no end!
This pitch may have been down, but it was definitely nowhere near the zone. Pitch selection was fine, Garcia got lucky.
68816
 

jbupstate

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This pitch may have been down, but it was definitely nowhere near the zone. Pitch selection was fine, Garcia got lucky.
View attachment 68816
It’s what makes baseball so great and yet so frustrating. That was a great pitch but Garcia did a great job staying alive and lucked in to a hit.

The Raleigh home run the other night was was right after a great pitch by Schrieber that Raleigh barely fouled out of Wong’s glove.
 
Mar 30, 2023
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No, there isn't "evidence." One start -- his first rehab start -- isn't "evidence" of anything, regardless of the result. (other than an injury bothering or not bothering the player -- that is useful information.)
Of course it's evidence. It might not be conclusive evidence, but the fact that he was throwing 2 MPH slower is an extremely important data point to consider when trying to figure out what he's going to be down the stretch -- particularly if, as the statement that started this thread suggested, it was smart not to trade for a starter because Tanner Houck was going to come back and effectively be one. It's childish wishcasting to suggest otherwise.
 

Trapaholic

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Just a good piece of hitting by Garcia. Throwing the barrel out there and spoiling a good pitch.

That Duvall thing was unreal. I did not have the volume on my TV but I could see what was happening in real time. I did not follow Duvall much before he signed with the Sox. My knowledge of him mostly came from playing fantasy baseball. He is a veteran guy who has been around and won a ring. There is something with this team where guys just do not seem to be focused on the moment. It is tough to even pinpoint because so many stupid things seem to happen, and it is not just one or 2 guys.

The wild part to me is that even in '21 the base running and defense left a little to be desired. There has been a lot of turn over on the roster since then and the mental errors keep piling up. I am at a loss.
 

InsideTheParker

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Just a good piece of hitting by Garcia. Throwing the barrel out there and spoiling a good pitch.

That Duvall thing was unreal. I did not have the volume on my TV but I could see what was happening in real time. I did not follow Duvall much before he signed with the Sox. My knowledge of him mostly came from playing fantasy baseball. He is a veteran guy who has been around and won a ring. There is something with this team where guys just do not seem to be focused on the moment. It is tough to even pinpoint because so many stupid things seem to happen, and it is not just one or 2 guys.

The wild part to me is that even in '21 the base running and defense left a little to be desired. There has been a lot of turn over on the roster since then and the mental errors keep piling up. I am at a loss.
I missed the Duvall non-play in real time, so I watched it this morning on the YouTube summary. You can hear either Youkilis or OB saying that D. thought it was out of play. He may have, but then he needs glasses. That's the roomy part of the OF and Verdugo routinely runs to his left to snare those catches.
 

joe dokes

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Just a good piece of hitting by Garcia. Throwing the barrel out there and spoiling a good pitch.

That Duvall thing was unreal. I did not have the volume on my TV but I could see what was happening in real time. I did not follow Duvall much before he signed with the Sox. My knowledge of him mostly came from playing fantasy baseball. He is a veteran guy who has been around and won a ring. There is something with this team where guys just do not seem to be focused on the moment. It is tough to even pinpoint because so many stupid things seem to happen, and it is not just one or 2 guys.

The wild part to me is that even in '21 the base running and defense left a little to be desired. There has been a lot of turn over on the roster since then and the mental errors keep piling up. I am at a loss.
I think players with either more flaws, or fewer-but-significant ones (defense & brains, for example) are an unfortunate corollary to a team in transition.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I think players with either more flaws, or fewer-but-significant ones (defense & brains, for example) are an unfortunate corollary to a team in transition.
This to me is on Cora again. I generally think he's a neutral manager- he's handled some roster problems pretty well (general positive) but makes questionable bullpen/starter moves (neutral) but I think is bad at getting team focus and sharp (negative). I'm not sure who I'd prefer though either.

As an aside... I generally don't read sports articles or writers at all but just decided to check in on a variety of the Boston area sports teams, and I would put money down that there's some unspoken race between them all to out Bloom-Hate each other and to find new and interesting ways of doing it.
I realize to some, I probably look like a Bloom fan but I'd consider myself Bloom-moderate. Just some of the criticism is so ungrounded it's laughable