Hoplite said:
Hoplite said:
Hoplite said:
You are a cherished member and your contributions are valuable.
David Ortiz Extended!
- Thread starter soxfan121
- Start date
You are a cherished member and your contributions are valuable.
Anybody know what kind of music he rocks to?soxhop411 said:
David Ortiz @davidortiz 1m
Finishing my workout to have another monster season for all those media hater that still doubting!!! pic.twitter.com/Aoorrc1egG
Can we stop the nonsense already and just pay the man? He's been the most important Red Sox player for the last decade. '04, '07 and '13 don't happen without him. He's still productive and he's shown no signs of decline. He's dedicated, he's respected as a team player and he's the ambassador of everything Red Sox. Screw the monetary aspect, he's worth every penny they dish out.
I love Ortiz as much as anybody, but it's inevitable that the decline is coming. Exactly when, obviously no one can say, but if you have to err, it's better to err on the side of giving up on someone a year too early than a year too late.Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
Also, we're always making fun of the Yankees for negotiating against themselves, and that's exactly what they'd be doing right now if they gave him an extension.
Also also, he's been paid pretty well over the past decade.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
Been following the team for almost 50 years. IMO in terms of contribution to the teams success over a 10 yr period Papi is ranked 2nd after Yaz, and you could make a good argument that Papi is number 1, since there has been more success. Frankly, you could go back 100 years in Red Sox history and Papi is still in the discussion for #1.
They're not giving a 300-lb Sabathia additional years, nor committing $275 million to A-Rod, nor giving 3 years to a creaky Derek Jeter and keeping him at the most important defensive position. No one would have batted an eye if the Yankees gave Jeter an extra year before they had to, but they gave him three with an option. Similarly, Ortiz is not asking for a multiyear extension. It's not a valid comparison.NoXInNixon said:
Red(s)HawksFan said:
"No, no, no. That's the only thing I don't miss about Boston. I'm pretty sure other players feel that way, too."
-Pedro on CHB
Since joining the Red Sox, when Papi was in the starting lineup they have been 835-619 (574 WP), or a 93 W team. When he has not started, they were 160-179 for a 471 WP , or a 76 W team. Obviously he is a 17 W player and should make 100 million a year. 
Seriously, Papi has been underpaid for most of his years with the Red Sox with the exception of 2008-2010 and 2012 due to his injury, but weep not for him since the Red Sox have paid him 111 million and god only knows what he gets in endorsements. Red Sox could risk some of that 50 million in surplus value they have banked over the years and give him an extra year. I expect they will do so with some incentives to keep him hungry so he remains the lean and mean machine he is now.
Seriously, Papi has been underpaid for most of his years with the Red Sox with the exception of 2008-2010 and 2012 due to his injury, but weep not for him since the Red Sox have paid him 111 million and god only knows what he gets in endorsements. Red Sox could risk some of that 50 million in surplus value they have banked over the years and give him an extra year. I expect they will do so with some incentives to keep him hungry so he remains the lean and mean machine he is now.
Whether or not to extend and aging Ortiz is the question. I see alot of emotional pleas and list of what has been as a response. How is that a rational point of view going forward?
1) He ain't done yetseantoo said:
2) Giving him one year extensions every spring until he has a terrible season means the downside is you're paying for two bad seasons at most, and really, how likely is that?
3) Keeping him happy is a good thing.
4) Keeping the fans happy is a good thing.
Bottom line, if he doesn't get paid, ownership has a little more money and everyone else loses.
Whether or not to extend and aging Ortiz is the question. I see alot of emotional pleas and list of what has been as a response. How is that a rational point of view going forward?
1. We have him signed for a year already, check.
2. See Carlos Delgado for a comp, baseball reference uses him as the best comp. player for the last 4 straight years.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/delgaca01.shtml
Dave Ortiz career slash line 287/381/549 and finished 10th for the MVP at 37.
Carlos Delgado slash line 280/383/540 and finished 9th for the MVP at 36.
Carlos played 26 games at 37 and never played again.
Dave Ortiz is 38.
Is this sample of 1 the end all be all, or course not but at least it's joining the conversation with reality.
3. Makes me sad.
4. Makes me sad for you.
Serioulsy. I love Dave too but I'm not a fan boy of throwing money at people simply because I'm a fan.
At his age and with steroids attached to his name, any game could be his last. I'm happy he's signed through this year and this year only. Should the Sox extend him another year I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
Do you want a mulligan, to mock me or do you want to engage in a real conversation?Rasputin said:
1. We have him signed for a year already, check.
2. See Carlos Delgado for a comp, baseball reference uses him as the best comp. player for the last 4 straight years.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/delgaca01.shtml
Dave Ortiz career slash line 287/381/549 and finished 10th for the MVP at 37.
Carlos Delgado slash line 280/383/540 and finished 9th for the MVP at 36.
Carlos played 26 games at 37 and never played again.
Dave Ortiz is 38.
Is this sample of 1 the end all be all, or course not but at least it's joining the conversation with reality.
3. Makes me sad.
4. Makes me sad for you.
Serioulsy. I love Dave too but I'm not a fan boy of throwing money at people simply because I'm a fan.
At his age and with steroids attached to his name, any game could be his last. I'm happy he's signed through this year and this year only. Should the Sox extend him another year I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
You don't have to be a fanboy to think that giving Ortiz an extra year is good business. It's just a different point of view.
I think it's good business because a happy Ortiz very well maybe a more productive Ortiz, it eliminates the risk that he takes his talents elsewhere for 2015, when he still well may be productive (the good Delgado comp be damned), and the damage inflicted by an extra $15 mm or so of dead money on the payroll in 2015 if Ortiz breaks down will not be debilitating in my view. The last point is obviously not desired but I don't think that whiffing on that amount will seriously impact thier ability to put a contending team on the field in 2015.
I'll be ridiculed for the next point but I also think that part of last season's success can be attributed to the general positve energy around the players and the team. New chemistry. New manager. No one talking about contracts. The intangibles point is of course not the ONLY reason the Sox won. But I do think it played a role and the players' comments after the WS are consistent with that. If Ortiz doesn't get his one-year extension, one of the team's biggest leaders will be (or might be) less positive in 2014, and I'd rather avoid that. Now if David insisted on even a two-year extension, they'd have to say "so be it." But tacking on a year, all things considered, is a good investment given what David brings in all respects, in my view.
I think it's good business because a happy Ortiz very well maybe a more productive Ortiz, it eliminates the risk that he takes his talents elsewhere for 2015, when he still well may be productive (the good Delgado comp be damned), and the damage inflicted by an extra $15 mm or so of dead money on the payroll in 2015 if Ortiz breaks down will not be debilitating in my view. The last point is obviously not desired but I don't think that whiffing on that amount will seriously impact thier ability to put a contending team on the field in 2015.
I'll be ridiculed for the next point but I also think that part of last season's success can be attributed to the general positve energy around the players and the team. New chemistry. New manager. No one talking about contracts. The intangibles point is of course not the ONLY reason the Sox won. But I do think it played a role and the players' comments after the WS are consistent with that. If Ortiz doesn't get his one-year extension, one of the team's biggest leaders will be (or might be) less positive in 2014, and I'd rather avoid that. Now if David insisted on even a two-year extension, they'd have to say "so be it." But tacking on a year, all things considered, is a good investment given what David brings in all respects, in my view.
Delgado played primarily 1B for his entire career. That puts a lot more wear and tear on someones body. Their hitting profiles may be similar up until now but that's where the similarities end.
If you can't acknowledge that Ortiz, right now, is the most important player on the team I honestly don't know what else to say.
If you can't acknowledge that Ortiz, right now, is the most important player on the team I honestly don't know what else to say.
seantoo said:
Because their entire business model is based on emotion. It's an entertainment industry. If you can't see that I actually pity you.
Also from a completely economic, non-emotional perspective it may not be a bad deal even if he declines. It shows that the team values loyalty, leadership and Papi's off-field contributions enough to bend a bit on what is "good business" for a franchise icon. Other players see this and are more likely to want to be a Sox. So you improve your chance of signing a FA you want by X amount because they saw how you treated Ortiz. Heck, you may make up the cost this year if Lester takes a below-market extension.
Are they going to give everyone who asks a deal before they "have" to? No, and I think the players understand that Ortiz is pretty singular - I don't see a slippery slope situation here. If another player brings us three rings then he can ask for some extra security too and be justified in doing so.
If Bogaerts and a couple of the pitching prospects develop into All-Star level contributors and you want to extend them all, it will be nice to have a couple of them on below-market deals, or be able to convince someone to stay who would have otherwise taken the most money possible with Seattle or whoever.
Are they going to give everyone who asks a deal before they "have" to? No, and I think the players understand that Ortiz is pretty singular - I don't see a slippery slope situation here. If another player brings us three rings then he can ask for some extra security too and be justified in doing so.
If Bogaerts and a couple of the pitching prospects develop into All-Star level contributors and you want to extend them all, it will be nice to have a couple of them on below-market deals, or be able to convince someone to stay who would have otherwise taken the most money possible with Seattle or whoever.
seantoo said:
You asked a question, I answered it. And you understand that with three and four, I was speaking from the team's perspective.
At some point, David Ortiz is going to stop being a very bad man, and the Red Sox are probably going to be paying him several million dollars when that happens. Whatever the exact amount of that money, it's going to be pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things. If the benefits are pretty trivial, well, it aint my money.
I personally can't wait until MLB starts determining playoffs on payroll efficiency instead of wins.
Rasputin said:
This is from an article by Cafardo about his weight loss going into the 2012 season:
If accurate and Ortiz sticks to it, then the one year extension would be part of a thought process that has actually remained consistent for like two years, if not more, and which was previously reported on.
Talk radio really should lay off these guys sometimes.
Edit: More fun stuff from that article:
smastroyin said:
That would be really helpful for our discussions of contracts because then they wouldn't have to even play the games which would radically reduce uncertainty due to the potential for injuries--just think the wonders it would do for the Sizemore thread!
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
Eck, not necessarily singling you out here as several have echoed this sentiment. He's been paid more than anyone else was willing to pay him. He's under contract for next season so he's getting paid and again it's more than anyone else was willing to pay him. Look I get what you're saying, I don't whole heartedly agree, but I get it. If he were 28 instead of 38, yeah extend him. If he were 32 instead of 38 yeah, tack another year on to the end of the current deal. He does one thing and does it pretty damn well, but why at this stage of the game do you offer $15-$16 million or more for another season before knowing what this season is going to bring you? You do agree that at some point the decline WILL come, yes? What if this season his skills drop to the point of 15-20 HRs, 65-70 RBI, .270 BA and an OBP hovering around .300. You going to be happy about having him for another year at $15-$16 million? Would you offer that extension at the end of THAT season. At least get through spring training and perhaps part of the season. I know these things can be an in season distraction and probably magnified in Ortiz's case because he'll likely go the "disrespect" route. But seriously, that's a lot of freakin' money we're talking about.
His point is that Ortiz has likely brought John Henry more value than he has been paid.
Of course it is good business sense to get the most return on investment so you can't just make this comparison. On the other hand, while baseball teams are largely exceptionally profitable, they are also vanity projects and no single player has contributed more to this ownership group's vanity than David Ortiz. Obviously there are several other factors in place, but the point remains - if the Red Sox lose $15-16 million of profit because they pay David Ortiz to be useless it's not going to kill anyone. The bigger risk by far is the roster spot, if you ask me. I would still take the chance though.
I realize I made a snarky post above, but I think people need to understand the point. It is all well and good to admire the work teams like A's and Rays do to remain competitive, but there is also no reason for the Red Sox to staple themselves to that model. They are a high revenue team. If they can win 95 games by spending money, the idea that they might still be able to do it while saving $30 million on payroll is appealing to people who admire such things, but at the end of the day, that is just profit. It's not going into ticket price reductions or cheaper beer. It is going into the pockets of the partners. And they have a right to it. I just don't understand why fans would care.
Of course it is good business sense to get the most return on investment so you can't just make this comparison. On the other hand, while baseball teams are largely exceptionally profitable, they are also vanity projects and no single player has contributed more to this ownership group's vanity than David Ortiz. Obviously there are several other factors in place, but the point remains - if the Red Sox lose $15-16 million of profit because they pay David Ortiz to be useless it's not going to kill anyone. The bigger risk by far is the roster spot, if you ask me. I would still take the chance though.
I realize I made a snarky post above, but I think people need to understand the point. It is all well and good to admire the work teams like A's and Rays do to remain competitive, but there is also no reason for the Red Sox to staple themselves to that model. They are a high revenue team. If they can win 95 games by spending money, the idea that they might still be able to do it while saving $30 million on payroll is appealing to people who admire such things, but at the end of the day, that is just profit. It's not going into ticket price reductions or cheaper beer. It is going into the pockets of the partners. And they have a right to it. I just don't understand why fans would care.
No, it's not a lot of money we're talking about. What Ortiz gets paid is in no way going to hinder the Sox. They are still going to do what they need to. At this point in his career it's obvious that the end is coming, I mean, no one plays forever, but David has earned the benefit of the doubt. Basically, if the Sox pay an extra year for a lesser Papi do you really think they're going to care let alone the fan-base? Do you have any idea how much money they're going to make on Ortiz's farewell tour?
smastroyin said:
In this vein, the article I quoted above discusses Ortiz staying with the organization after he retires as a player. How much money do we think the Red Sox could make just through whoring out Pedro and Ortiz for, like, luncheons and dinners and shit? Do they golf? What would a round of golf with Pedro and Ortiz pull? They could even just make it for charity and the two alone could probably pull the whole Jimmy Fund contribution on their own.
Methinks David got that wrong, or Henry wasn't clear. Pedro M., Pedroia, Lester, Varitek, Manny, Youkilis couldn't/can't play in Boston? Maybe Manny shut out the press once or twice.Reverend said:
Sometimes the Red Sox go too far in the "it's a business" thing. Ortiz combines as one of the most iconic and the most productive when it counts (clutch) as any Red Sox player ever. Get him inked.
smastroyin said:
I'd love Ortiz to be with us until his retirement, but I don't feel any great moral outrage about his millions earned, one way or the other.
I'm conflicted on the greater ownership/labor issue.
On one hand, if there's no ownership/MLB system, including ballparks, ticket admission, coaching, and the whole shebang of baseball infrastructure, the ability and skill of the individual players don't mean much - you've got a lot of "mute, inglorious Milton's" out there. Or baseball itself would be a kind of fringy sport.
Yet on the other hand, without the (star) players, the ownership/MLB system wouldn't be as popular as it is, nor would particular clubs/years be as successful, nor would the marketing be as successful.
Then there's the antitrust exception for the sport.
The last element is the fan base, which provides the revenue in the most basic sense. And if the fans want to pay to see a team of all redheaded lefties, that has to be factored in as well.
So it's kind of a chicken/egg/farmer/barnyard-which-protects-from-foxes thing with me.
[SIZE=10.5pt]I really find myself perplexed that so many fans and media types have decided that this line must be drawn with David Ortiz. In the last twelve months, the Sox FO bet $13 mil on Ryan Dempster and then traded for Jake Peavy and took on another $14.5 mil obligation for 2014, all in the name of shoring up the middle to back end of the rotation. They decided that it was worth $26 mil a year over three seasons to acquire potentially solid (but not great) players like Victorino and Napoli (before the hip condition was discovered) even though both were coming off disappointing recent stretches. More recently, they decided that $8.5 mil is perfectly fine to pay AJP to patch up the catching until the kids are ready. The team has shown a willingness (wisely, in my opinion) to overspend when necessary to fill holes and avoid long-term obligations. Yet David Ortiz, fresh off a terrific bounceback season and a World Series for the ages - he's the guy we have to make sure they don't overcommit to? You know, God forbid the Sox risk overpaying that guy for one year. I don't get it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Also, for those who get so worked up about Ortiz freely discussing his contract situation and wish he’s ‘shut up’ – that’s who he is. You get the player who embraces the biggest moments like few others, the team leader who gathers everyone together in the dugout of the World Series for a few words when it feels like nothing is going their way, the guy who strolls up to the microphone uninvited at the post-Marathon ceremony and delivers an eloquent statement of defiance - you get all of what is so great about Big Papi because he always wears his heart on his sleeve. It’s just part of the package. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I just don’t get worked up about those contract pleas for this reason. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Also, for those who get so worked up about Ortiz freely discussing his contract situation and wish he’s ‘shut up’ – that’s who he is. You get the player who embraces the biggest moments like few others, the team leader who gathers everyone together in the dugout of the World Series for a few words when it feels like nothing is going their way, the guy who strolls up to the microphone uninvited at the post-Marathon ceremony and delivers an eloquent statement of defiance - you get all of what is so great about Big Papi because he always wears his heart on his sleeve. It’s just part of the package. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I just don’t get worked up about those contract pleas for this reason. [/SIZE]
smastroyin said:
YTF said:
Yeah as you can see from something I posted earlier in the thread this is a concern for me as well. Another concern is that IF the Sox are going to hold themselves to the idea of keeping payroll below the luxury tax threshold then the dollars DO matter. I'm not suggesting that they try to screw the guy over or play games with him, but Jesus he's got the contract the two year deal that he wanted. He's delivered on year one and honestly I don't think the team would be squeezing him if they wanted to get a sense of what this season might be like before offering an extension. If extended is he going to be looking for the same next offseason? Are we looking at a perpetual two year contract here?
JimD said:
Are you talking about the same off season where Ortiz was set to begin the two year deal that he was looking for?
Read: "I began losing weight because my pharmacist has had to make a u-turn in my "training regimen" due to the changes in MLB's testing. Then he disappeared to Sochi this winter, I can't find him so here I am lean."Reverend said:
Do you really want to extend a non-juiced Papi into his 40's? I love Papi, he is my fuckin DH.....but the drop off is coming soon and if he's all natural as this photo appear that dropped could come sooner rather than later. If we extend him we better extend his pharmacist too.
I don't know what we are to make of your "interpretation." David was much thinner last year than in previous years and performed very well, to say the least. He looks thinner than ever because we are seeing him in workout clothes, because he is continuing his special diet, because he is working out, all of which should help to extend his career.HomeRunBaker said:
Rasputin said:
Please. The last time you had these kind of feelings it worked out sooooo poorly that I beg you, please, don't do this again.
Rasputin said:
I wonder just how creative ownership is going to be with the inevitable extension. Will it be the "lifetime" deal that includes a post-retirement job in the organization (like, figurehead Director of the Dominican Academy/spring training instructor/legend-in-residence)?
If things weren't going well, we'd know. David is a little too honest about his contract but he certainly has earned it. God, I love that man. Not unconditionally, mind you. But damn close.
The only diet info that I can add is anecdotal:
Three years ago in an early Feb batting practice David was coming behind tha cage after a number of weak grounders. The fans watching were calling out how well and trim he appeared.
David lit up with that Island Smile and said,"Ess a special diet for me. But if I don' star' heeting better I'm going back to chicken 'n rice.
Three years ago in an early Feb batting practice David was coming behind tha cage after a number of weak grounders. The fans watching were calling out how well and trim he appeared.
David lit up with that Island Smile and said,"Ess a special diet for me. But if I don' star' heeting better I'm going back to chicken 'n rice.
https://twitter.com/jtomase/status/435867351699836928
John Tomase @jtomase Feb 18
David Ortiz has a message for critics who harp on his contract demands (bad word alert): "I earn it, bitch." http://bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/clubhouse_insider/2014/02/ortiz_on_critics_every_time_i_talk_about_my_contract_i …
John Tomase @jtomase Feb 18
David Ortiz has a message for critics who harp on his contract demands (bad word alert): "I earn it, bitch." http://bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/clubhouse_insider/2014/02/ortiz_on_critics_every_time_i_talk_about_my_contract_i …
Love the comments. An angry Ortiz is a good Ortiz. He's right too. Guys like Shaugnessy that continue to rip him for talking contract don't seem to realize that he in fact has been worth every penny that he's been paid. Until he fails, he should be paid as one of the best power hitters in the game.
Yup, that was about what I expected from Ortiz. Most of it is on the money, even if some of us would rather not hear about it.
If the Sox do want to extend him, they should get this done and move on. The potential savings they'll enjoy by "winning" the negotiation when his ask is $15 mm (assuming that's true) isn't worth letting this thing fester or remain unresolved on March 31, in my view.
If the Sox do want to extend him, they should get this done and move on. The potential savings they'll enjoy by "winning" the negotiation when his ask is $15 mm (assuming that's true) isn't worth letting this thing fester or remain unresolved on March 31, in my view.
Tomase was just on 98.5 with Bertrand & Jones (Felger & Mazz are off). He said Ortiz was upbeat and jovial while making these comments, and that they weren't yelled or unleashed with any tone of anger. Tomase called the outburst more entertaining than serious, though Ortiz clearly meant every word of it.
I can absolutely see him saying it that way. But we all know the rest of the media are simply going to take his words and portray them as more "Angry Papi Is Still Bitching About Money". The presentations will all lack the context Tomase provided, and they'll be intended to work fans into a "Can You Believe This Rich Spoiled Athlete??" fervor.
I can absolutely see him saying it that way. But we all know the rest of the media are simply going to take his words and portray them as more "Angry Papi Is Still Bitching About Money". The presentations will all lack the context Tomase provided, and they'll be intended to work fans into a "Can You Believe This Rich Spoiled Athlete??" fervor.
As someone who lives a few miles from Boston, I'd like to get a general idea about how people other than CHB, radio hosts trying to drive up ratings and people on the board feel about the Ortiz contract situation. I thought what he said today was funny and also true. He should be extended.
I've yet to see/hear any of the media whose position has been that the team should stand firm say Ortiz isn't worth it or hasn't earned it. And there's a simple reason for that: They CAN'T say it. Because they all know it isn't true. His numbers and track record cannot possibly be argued with.
Instead, what they harp on is how much (in their views) publicly bitching about one's contract can/will be a distraction to the team, how it's a sign of selfishness, how it proves Ortiz isn't really the big, lovable teddy bear many fans swoon over. They also continue to play the "He's a big guy and he's fragile, you never know when he's going to pop another Achilles" card, and the "He's had slumps before, and they've been epic, so why take that risk?" card. It's naysayers 101: Cast doubts and aspersions, field calls/tweets/letters from supporters & detractors alike, profit.
Instead, what they harp on is how much (in their views) publicly bitching about one's contract can/will be a distraction to the team, how it's a sign of selfishness, how it proves Ortiz isn't really the big, lovable teddy bear many fans swoon over. They also continue to play the "He's a big guy and he's fragile, you never know when he's going to pop another Achilles" card, and the "He's had slumps before, and they've been epic, so why take that risk?" card. It's naysayers 101: Cast doubts and aspersions, field calls/tweets/letters from supporters & detractors alike, profit.
The Ortiz comments aren't really accurate. First, no hitter is making $30 million a year and almost no one is making $25. The best position players are making $20-$25, not $25-$30. Second, and more important, Ortiz is not as good as the guys making that type of money. Or, at the very least, he is not as good as the teams expected those players to be when they signed them to those contracts.
On a rate stat level, Ortiz' performance last year was most comparable to that of Choo. (They have a wRC+ one point apart and wOBA's with .010 although Choo gets there with less power and more OBP.) Choo signed for $18.6 million this offseason. And, while his terrible defense makes him basically the equivalent of a DH, he played in 17 more games and accumulate 112 more PA, making his fWAR 1.4 higher than that of Ortiz.
If we are looking for a value comp, we need look no further than the Red Sox 1B. Napoli's overall value last season was virtually identical to that of Ortiz at 3.9 fWAR to Ortiz' 3.8. His health concerns probably mitigate substantially against the age difference. He signed a contract that was pretty much the same as the one Ortiz got a year ago.
Basically, the contract Ortiz is on, which he signed as a FA, is equivalent to his fair market value, more or less. Part of signing a contract is giving up the right to renegotiate terms every year. If Ortiz wants to sign an extension which builds in a discount for the Red Sox to guarantee him money in 2015 a year before they need to, I would be fine with that. I would not offer him a FA-rate extension a year in advance though. It sets a terrible precedent for future dealings with players to do so.
If Ortiz has another great year, a 2-year, $30-34 million dollar deal is probably waiting for him after next year. If he struggles or gets hurt, he might be looking at a 1 year, $5 million dollar deal with incentives or even just be out of baseball entirely. If he wants to sign an extension for around $10-$12 million right now, I'd do it. I'd also consider a $15-$16 million dollar extension with a team option at the same rate added on for the third year and no, or minimal, buyout. If he is looking for $15+ million without the team really getting anything, I try to politely explain to him that I'm not saying no because I don't think he's worth it but because the team has to hold the line on not being willing to extend players who are currently under contract unless they are willing to take a discount. $15 million for Ortiz, as evidenced by his last contract and the contract Napoli just signed, is not a discount, or if it is, it is a very slight one.
The short version of all of this is that it is bad for business to extend players unless you get a discount. Extending Ortiz should only happen if he is willing to take a discount, either in dollar terms or by giving the team options at the end. And, in either case, he really should keep his contract complaints between himself, his agent, and the front office rather than discussing it in the press.
On a rate stat level, Ortiz' performance last year was most comparable to that of Choo. (They have a wRC+ one point apart and wOBA's with .010 although Choo gets there with less power and more OBP.) Choo signed for $18.6 million this offseason. And, while his terrible defense makes him basically the equivalent of a DH, he played in 17 more games and accumulate 112 more PA, making his fWAR 1.4 higher than that of Ortiz.
If we are looking for a value comp, we need look no further than the Red Sox 1B. Napoli's overall value last season was virtually identical to that of Ortiz at 3.9 fWAR to Ortiz' 3.8. His health concerns probably mitigate substantially against the age difference. He signed a contract that was pretty much the same as the one Ortiz got a year ago.
Basically, the contract Ortiz is on, which he signed as a FA, is equivalent to his fair market value, more or less. Part of signing a contract is giving up the right to renegotiate terms every year. If Ortiz wants to sign an extension which builds in a discount for the Red Sox to guarantee him money in 2015 a year before they need to, I would be fine with that. I would not offer him a FA-rate extension a year in advance though. It sets a terrible precedent for future dealings with players to do so.
If Ortiz has another great year, a 2-year, $30-34 million dollar deal is probably waiting for him after next year. If he struggles or gets hurt, he might be looking at a 1 year, $5 million dollar deal with incentives or even just be out of baseball entirely. If he wants to sign an extension for around $10-$12 million right now, I'd do it. I'd also consider a $15-$16 million dollar extension with a team option at the same rate added on for the third year and no, or minimal, buyout. If he is looking for $15+ million without the team really getting anything, I try to politely explain to him that I'm not saying no because I don't think he's worth it but because the team has to hold the line on not being willing to extend players who are currently under contract unless they are willing to take a discount. $15 million for Ortiz, as evidenced by his last contract and the contract Napoli just signed, is not a discount, or if it is, it is a very slight one.
The short version of all of this is that it is bad for business to extend players unless you get a discount. Extending Ortiz should only happen if he is willing to take a discount, either in dollar terms or by giving the team options at the end. And, in either case, he really should keep his contract complaints between himself, his agent, and the front office rather than discussing it in the press.
I think Rich said it best this morning on T&R - who cares? You know he is going to do it, none of his teammates seem to care, all it really does is create fodder for the media who are desperate for anything interesting to say at this point. And a platform for people like JakeRae who probably throw darts at Curt Flood for ruining the perfect reserve system where business decisions were all made by the business and those pesky indentured servants could go be plumbers if they found it so hard.
It's not that the points aren't valid from the Red Sox or business side of the equation - but Ortiz has a right to bitch and moan however much he wants as well. I'm not sure why people get bothered by it.
It's not that the points aren't valid from the Red Sox or business side of the equation - but Ortiz has a right to bitch and moan however much he wants as well. I'm not sure why people get bothered by it.