Just got an alert through the IFTTT service (basically this alert scrapes espn.com for Sox related news and texts it to me) that said Ortiz was involved in an 'altercation' with CHB, but it's not on espn.com. Anyone have a line on this story?
David Ortiz Extended!
- Thread starter soxfan121
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After Ortiz's news conference, there was a verbal confrontation in the Red Sox clubhouse between Ortiz and Boston Globe columnist Dan Shaughnessy, who called the designated hitter "selfish" for talking about his contract a year before it expired in a story that ran in late January.uncannymanny said:
http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=10483551
Just another attempt to drive up clicks for his articles. Kind of like a rapper getting in a fight to raise his "street cred". CHB is absolutely worthless.
It kind of shocks me that CHB hasn't been banned from the Red Sox clubhouse. Should have happened over a decade ago.
Hank Scorpio said:
CHB now works for JWH. Why would JWH ban a guy he is paying to cover the Red Sox?. Just has to fire him.
Sampo Gida said:
Even if he doesn't fire him, send him to cover something else (permanent beat assignment to Liverpool sounds good).
Isn't Shaughnessy a columnist anyway? Why does he need to be in Ft Myers at all? I think that's an expense JWH could strike from the budget fairly easily. It's not like Abraham and Cafardo can't handle the frenetic pace of covering the Red Sox spring training beat on their own.
JakeRae said:
Do teams pay equally for defense and offense?. I think they pay more for a players offensive contribution since its a scarcer commodity than defense.
In Batting Runs, last year Ortiz was ranked 7th, Choo 8th and Napoli came in at almost 1/2 of Papis, and ranked 34th . Using wRAA ( I don't think the park adjustments do Papi justice though), that has Choo 6th , Papi 8th and Napoli (4 runs behind Choo) far behind at 24th (16 runs behind Papi). So I think the Choo comp was better than Napoli comp.
Also, the best position players are on multi-year deals which are discounted for the number of years. Ortiz is only looking for a 1 yr extension.
So you're suggesting Ortiz can have a sub par 2014, while still getting his 500 ABs earn $15 mil and essentially turn the remaining one year of THIS contract into a 3 year deal earning $16Mil per in the final two years? $47 million for '14, '15 and '16?
Is there any other type of 'news' where the reporters are so consistently making themselves part of the story? The story here isn't Ortiz vs the Sox (as both sides have said things are fine and will sort themselves out), it's once again an athlete vs the media. Sports reporters really are the worst.
Andrew said:
If you are going to whine in public about your contract when you make 15 million a year when folks are struggling to make it on 100K or less, you are pretty much fair game. Papi made himself the story. Writers need folks to read their stuff and in an offseason where Drew has been the major story for the Red Sox (at least it seems like its always the top thread) you can't blame them for running with it.
JakeRae said:
Just a couple points of disagreement:
1) Baseball hero Alex Rodriguez made $28mm last year, $29mm in 2012, $32mm in 2011, and $33mm in 2009 and 2010. He's basically a hitter, and that's in the $30mm/year range. Source.
2) The list of hitters who made $20mm or more in 2013 is: Alex Rodriguez, Mark Teixeira, Prince Fielder, Joe Mauer, Vernon Wells, Adrian Gonzalez, Miguel Cabrera, Matt Kemp, Carl Crawford, and Ryan Howard (Source). Of that list, only Cabrera had a higher wRC+. And, frankly, looking at that list I prefer Ortiz to anyone on the list other than Cabrera (not a result of rigorous comparison). And are we going to use how good Ruben Amaro expects players to be as a measuring stick?
Sampo Gida said:
Every Red Sox fan should be icing their shoulders from chronic high-five injuries that these are the biggest stories the media has to cover on this team. Cherington is so far settled into the cat-bird seat at this point that I imagine him playing X-Box six-hours a day in his office with Henry shouting, "Good job, Ben!" whenever he walks by.
You probably don't realize this, but using that picture destroyed any point you were attempting to make.Hoplite said:
Exactly, what team would give up a draft pick to sign an aging DH type to a short-term deal?
If that stat you showed really says that Ortiz is worth the same as Napoli then it says a lot about how flawed the stat is, and nothing more.
crazybird1 said:
That scenario is bad enough, but not the worst case as you've also committed a roster spot to a guy that you're going to be OK with benching as to not trigger an option clause.
Plympton91 said:
For starters, DHs lose WAR because of the negative positional adjustment because DHs obviously don't play defense, which I've always thought is kind of stupid because if you play in the AL, somebody needs to play DH so you end up with a negative thrown in structurally without reference to quality of play.
FanGraphs's WAR disaggregation is pretty black-boxy and only gives you the raw data and then fWAR, but b-ref similarly has Napoli and Ortiz close in WAR (4.1 to 4.4) and at least gives you the bWAR components for offense and defense: at b-ref, Napoli has an oWAR of 2.9 and a dWAR of 0.3 while Ortiz has a oWAR of 4.4 and a dWAR of -1.3... so apparently I'm supposed to accept that Ortiz lost almost a third of his value relative to replacement because he played DH and wasn't a tremendous fielder in the 6 frickin' games he played at first?
Also, how much WAR is something like this worth?
David Ortiz and the Red Sox are talking contract, and both sides would like to reach a resolution before the season begins.
A source confirmed a WEEI.com report that the sides have opened discussions. Ortiz and his agent, Fernando Cuza, met today with members of ownership, as well as the front office.
The designated hitter and franchise icon wants a one-year, $15 million extension for the 2015 season. Given those reasonable parameters, as well as the willingness of both sides to negotiate, it won't be a surprise if a deal is struck in Fort Myers.
http://bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/clubhouse_insider/2014/02/source_ortiz_and_red_sox_meet_to_discuss_contract
Tomase
A source confirmed a WEEI.com report that the sides have opened discussions. Ortiz and his agent, Fernando Cuza, met today with members of ownership, as well as the front office.
The designated hitter and franchise icon wants a one-year, $15 million extension for the 2015 season. Given those reasonable parameters, as well as the willingness of both sides to negotiate, it won't be a surprise if a deal is struck in Fort Myers.
http://bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox_mlb/clubhouse_insider/2014/02/source_ortiz_and_red_sox_meet_to_discuss_contract
Tomase
If $15 mm is really the ask, the Sox will be able to get a deal done now. There's not a lot of point to trying to "win" the negotiation to save relatively small dollars, especially with so much money coming off the books in 2015. And it's not as if $15 mm for David Ortiz will set some bad precedent that will come back to haunt them in future negotiations with David or other players.
If that's all true, then if the Sox don't get a deal done before opening day, I think we have to conclude that they are unwilling to sign him for 2015 without seeing what he has in 2014 (or at least part of it), don't think he'll have a big market in 2015 (or at the very least, that they can chill that market) and that not getting a deal done now will not materially detract from his performance and lead to a distraction that matters.
While I very much want them to get this done yesterday, knowing that they've made that judgment -- if I'm right -- will be interesting stuff.
If that's all true, then if the Sox don't get a deal done before opening day, I think we have to conclude that they are unwilling to sign him for 2015 without seeing what he has in 2014 (or at least part of it), don't think he'll have a big market in 2015 (or at the very least, that they can chill that market) and that not getting a deal done now will not materially detract from his performance and lead to a distraction that matters.
While I very much want them to get this done yesterday, knowing that they've made that judgment -- if I'm right -- will be interesting stuff.
The question will be years. I think you sign him any number around 15m if it's just one year. If it's multiple years or there are vesting options then I can see waiting a bit. At this point it's hard to see them parting ways, so the timing of an extension doesn't concern me.
If he wants 1/15 then you give it to him now. One year will not hamper anything even if he becomes a pumpkin and rides the pine as the elder statesman.
If he wants 1/15 then you give it to him now. One year will not hamper anything even if he becomes a pumpkin and rides the pine as the elder statesman.
He clarified that he's asking for one year, 2015.yecul said:
Here's one report saying that:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20140219/boston-red-sox-david-ortiz-contract-extension.ap/
It would be great if the CBA allowed contractual clauses imposing gag orders on players prohibiting them from any discussion of current or future contracts until the expiration of said current contract, and it would be even greater if Ortiz's new deal contained such a clause.
Because while I'm fully behind Ortiz getting another well-deserved year, if he's really serious about wanting that and nothing more then he should be firmly held to shutting the fuck up about it henceforth until the 2015 season ends.
Because while I'm fully behind Ortiz getting another well-deserved year, if he's really serious about wanting that and nothing more then he should be firmly held to shutting the fuck up about it henceforth until the 2015 season ends.
I disagree.mabrowndog said:
Today, on the eve of the 2014 season, he wants to know that he's not playing for his 2015 contract during the 2014 season. And he wants to leverage the Sox into guaranteeing him another $15 mm while the getting is good. That's an understandable position. And even if it wasn't, it's his view.
If David is productive in 2014 and will be playing for the Sox in 2015, he may very well feel exactly the same way before next season. Why shouldn't he express that position then?
Said differently, I don't read David to be saying "this is what I want, and I will never have a different desire." To the contrary, he's just saying that "I'm not today asking for an extension through 2016, I just want to be extended another year at this point." And if he was asking for two years right now, I think many people would view his request a lot less charitably.
Late edit: Made a change to convert this to the English language.
My ulterior point was that I'd prefer not to have it once again become headline creation fodder for the multiple talentless hacks incapable of generating any other Red Sox insights. Papi hates these guys, yet can't resist feeding them the very thing that continues to sustain them.
http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/rob-bradford/2014/03/13/weight-world-david-ortiz-contemplates-life-ma
I think "I don't understand the mind of David Ortiz" is the perfect way to sum this up. Is he just trying to tell the younger guys to step up? It's all strange.
This is the first time I've actually felt inclined to side with the David Ortiz-detractors, when you consider how great an offense they had last year with Ortiz's perceived "they just pitch around me", it makes it seem like he's more concerned with getting his share rather than the success of the team.
Or maybe I'm reading into his comments wrong. I don't know. Like I said, strange.
I think "I don't understand the mind of David Ortiz" is the perfect way to sum this up. Is he just trying to tell the younger guys to step up? It's all strange.
This is the first time I've actually felt inclined to side with the David Ortiz-detractors, when you consider how great an offense they had last year with Ortiz's perceived "they just pitch around me", it makes it seem like he's more concerned with getting his share rather than the success of the team.
Or maybe I'm reading into his comments wrong. I don't know. Like I said, strange.
I don't think it's that hard to interpret.
For one, his complaint as such is the same one that has been voiced here basically forever - what are we going to do for power without Papi. Obviously there are other ways to win. As well it's not the 00's anymore so a "good power" guy looks a little different than David is used to.
For two, like most ballplayers he believes in protection and has made similar comments for the past 5 (things that make you feel old) years since Manny has been gone.
For three, "I'm the man, pay me."
For one, his complaint as such is the same one that has been voiced here basically forever - what are we going to do for power without Papi. Obviously there are other ways to win. As well it's not the 00's anymore so a "good power" guy looks a little different than David is used to.
For two, like most ballplayers he believes in protection and has made similar comments for the past 5 (things that make you feel old) years since Manny has been gone.
For three, "I'm the man, pay me."
Man, there was almost nothing as fun as the Papi-Manny duo. I'd be reminiscing about that if I were him, too.C4CRVT said:
rembrat said:
Exactly. Be careful what you wish for, David.
I'm glad he threw a bone to Middlebrooks there. I get the point he's making, but I think we should see how Wombat, Xander and maybe even Brentz develop before we declare a young stud emergency.
One could also infer that he's saying: "And pay somebody else, too. Cause the team around me isn't good enough."smastroyin said:
Does he have the same psychotherapist as Vince?
Like seriously. Maybe he wants Pedroia to fire a slingshot at his face.
"I don't count Pedey as a middle-of-the-order guy." may be true, but how on earth do you voice that?
Like seriously. Maybe he wants Pedroia to fire a slingshot at his face.
"I don't count Pedey as a middle-of-the-order guy." may be true, but how on earth do you voice that?
This makes sense to me. I think he sees himself as "the man" as someone who can drive in runs and hit dingers and doubles. He mentioned Nap, who was second on the team in HRs, Salty, who was 3rd in SLG, and WMB, who was actually 3rd in HR and obviously has some of the best power potential on the team.
But beyond Nap and WMB there really isn't a big bat in this sense as of yet. Pedroia, Victorino, Nava, etc, are all valuable hitters but they lack in traditional power numbers and I'm confident Ortiz isn't looking at their wOBA.
Also, looking at more advanced stats, he really is head and shoulders above everyone else, even Napoli, especially when you don't adjust for position (as I doubt he is).
Combine that perspective with Ortiz' usual tendency to say what's on his mind and it makes sense ot me. And I certainly don't see getting upset at it. Our star could be Jeter and always say the clichéd thing, but then he wouldn't be Ortiz. You take this with the "This is our fucking city" and in the end you come out way ahead. Oh, and the three rings.
But beyond Nap and WMB there really isn't a big bat in this sense as of yet. Pedroia, Victorino, Nava, etc, are all valuable hitters but they lack in traditional power numbers and I'm confident Ortiz isn't looking at their wOBA.
Also, looking at more advanced stats, he really is head and shoulders above everyone else, even Napoli, especially when you don't adjust for position (as I doubt he is).
Combine that perspective with Ortiz' usual tendency to say what's on his mind and it makes sense ot me. And I certainly don't see getting upset at it. Our star could be Jeter and always say the clichéd thing, but then he wouldn't be Ortiz. You take this with the "This is our fucking city" and in the end you come out way ahead. Oh, and the three rings.
Essentially, he's complaining about the intentional construction of the roster that is not so reliant on many superstars like himself. The formula worked last year and my man Ortiz may not realize he's criticizing the current Red Sox formula for success. Maybe he misses the prospect of Ellsbury at the top of the order. Hope he will eventually elaborate.
I think he's looking at last year's lineup that, while winning the Series, was often fairly impotent aside from him in the postseason. (really, how the heck did they manage to score any runs that weren't driven in by Ortiz?) Then a full third of that lineup has turned over with the replacements being two rookies and an veteran nearly Papi's age. I can see where he might be a bit concerned that we're in for a few months of what they experienced in October, only without the emotional element to scrap for a run or two late in a game.
But since it's Ortiz, I'm really hoping there was something lost in the translation and he really wasn't trying to run down his teammates or the front office in the way the article seems to portray. And yeah, there's definitely a bit of "I'm the best you've got, pay me" in there too.
But since it's Ortiz, I'm really hoping there was something lost in the translation and he really wasn't trying to run down his teammates or the front office in the way the article seems to portray. And yeah, there's definitely a bit of "I'm the best you've got, pay me" in there too.
Red(s)HawksFan said:
They scored 853 runs last year, first in the majors and 57 more than the second place team. They also managed to, you know, score more runs than their opponents in the play-offs too. If you look at the Sox last year and think "boy that offense is impotent" you're simply not being rational.
I agree that some of this doesn't come off in print the way it was intended.
Parts of it read as a call to the younger guys like WMB, Xander as well as Nap to step it up because if they are going to win again they can't compeletely rely on him to do what he did last year.
Parts of it read as a call to the younger guys like WMB, Xander as well as Nap to step it up because if they are going to win again they can't compeletely rely on him to do what he did last year.
Andrew said:
Post-season. I specifically referred to the post season where Ortiz was otherworldly and the rest of the team, save for a couple key moments, barely hit at all (.168/.225/.252 in the WS outside Ortiz).
Of course they had a potent offense last year, and should have something similar this year. But Ortiz isn't thinking about total runs and OBP, he's looking for gaudy HR totals.
He had one beyond otherworldly moment in the ALCS, and otherwise was 1 for 21. If other guys hadn't stepped up, the Sox wouldn't have made it to the WS, and Ortiz wouldn't have had a chance to be truly otherworldlyRed(s)HawksFan said:
Red(s)HawksFan said:
That's just not the game of baseball anymore, though. I guess that's why Ortiz makes his money in the batter's box and not in the front office.
Andrew said:
"But come, Éomer, Éomund's son!' he went on in his soft voice again. 'To every man his part. Valour in arms is yours, and you win high honour thereby. Slay whom your lord names as enemies, and be content. Meddle not in policies which you do not understand.'"
Ortiz needs to listen to Saruman.
These last posts are exactly on point. It's no shame to Ortiz, as he is a specialized craftsman, but these comments don't speak to what the FO/management now understand about baseball. I posted in a gamethread recently about something that RHF is referring to in that if you go over the stats for last year's playoffs, you see that lots of players seem to hit very poorly at times--hey, they faced great pitching, right?--but the team just keeps scoring runs.
Like Toe Nash implies, chick's may not dig wOBA even though we know it wins ball games, but we don't need Ortiz to understand any of this--we only need him to keep being Ortiz, which frankly has been pretty awesome thus far.
Ortiz being Ortiz. Deal with it.
Like Toe Nash implies, chick's may not dig wOBA even though we know it wins ball games, but we don't need Ortiz to understand any of this--we only need him to keep being Ortiz, which frankly has been pretty awesome thus far.
Ortiz being Ortiz. Deal with it.