#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[Leather]

Unless a HC/OC is willing to put his name to that, it's worthless.
 
I mean, this is where we're at now?  
 
BB should call up every market and say  "Every time I visit that stadium, I tell the players to wear tinfoil hats, because they use sonic rays to read our playcalls."

 

[Leather]

"I just heard from a respected HC that the Colts leave child porn in the visitor's locker room." #wherethere'ssmoke

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

https://mobile.twitter.com/jasonphilcole/status/570595970238578688

Maybe it's McDaniels!? #SmokingGun

Dumb.  Why would they use locals when the visitor's locker room is already wired for sound and video?

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

double post

 

[Hendu for Kutch]

SoSH has got to be able to figure out who this is, right?
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_National_Football_League_offensive_coordinators
 
The funny thing is, they have no evidence that the Patriots are spying on them in the locker room, or they'd have presented it to the NFL.  So this is entirely being done on a paranoid hunch or gossip basis.  Which makes it worthless even before considering it's anonymous.  It's both funny and sad, really. 

 

[DJnVa]

Going anonymous when the entire population of former HC now OCs is small is dumb.
 
Unless I'm missing someone: Chan Gailey, Hue Jackson, Todd Haley, Marc Trestman, or Norv Turner.
 
I'm going with Chan Gailey, currently OC of the Jets.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

SoSH has got to be able to figure out who this is, right?
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_National_Football_League_offensive_coordinators
 
The funny thing is, they have no evidence that the Patriots are spying on them in the locker room, or they'd have presented it to the NFL.  So this is entirely being done on a paranoid hunch or gossip basis.  Which makes it worthless even before considering it's anonymous.  It's both funny and sad, really. 

 
Gailey
Trestman
Jackson
Haley
Shurmur
Turner
 
"Respected." Probably Norv Turner. I don't think Gailey's really respected.

 

[Norm loves Vera]

Well Cole will get a thousand more followers on twitter for that one tweet.. it will be interesting to see how many retweets it gets as it's a slow NFL day. 
 
Nothing gets more eyes these days than another "Patriots Cheat" whisper.

 

[JohnnyTheBone]

Can Gary Kubiak be ruled out?  His nose got out of joint when he was mocked mercilessly for the lettermen jackets.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Not a current OC, though. And definitely not "respected."
 
And he got mocked for those letterman jackets because they were mercilessly destroyed by the Pats the week they wore them.

 

[Corsi]

It's Norv.
 
9/13/07
 

San Diego Chargers coach Norv Turner laid out the ground rules when he addressed his team on Monday, one day after beating the Bears in the season opener.
 
In shifting his team's focus to the next opponent on the schedule -- the New England Patriots this Sunday -- Turner didn't want his players speaking of revenge for last season's playoff loss. He didn't want anybody dwelling on the anger that swelled after a few Patriots mocked the post-sack celebration of Chargers linebacker Shawne Merriman following that defeat.
 
Most of all, he didn't want his players to take a lackadaisical approach in terms of protecting the Chargers' game plan. To that end, Turner told the players that their playbooks would be locked up during their Saturday afternoon walk-through at Gillette Stadium. That was a guarantee.
 
Normally, Turner might not be so overly paranoid about entering another team's stadium. But ever since news spread that the Patriots were videotaping the defensive signals of the New York Jets during New England's 38-14 win last Sunday, extra precautions were being made.
 
"Norv wanted us to know that he was going to be careful," one Chargers player said. "We'd already heard a lot of things about the Patriots in the past. But what happened this week has made everybody a lot more cautious. He was even talking about keeping Patriots employees from entering our hotel.
 

 


 

 

[Harry Hooper]

We worked really, really hard, yet the Pats still beat us. They must be cheating!

 

[Ed Hillel]

Worked out well for Norv:
 
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=270916017

 

[Preacher]

We worked really, really hard, yet the Pats still beat us. They must be cheating!

 
Just think if Norv didn't take those measures back in '07.  That 38-14 beating could have been much worse. 

 

[Corsi]

ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk  1m1 minute ago
Colts S Mike Adams says he was too excited after intercepting two Tom Brady passes in November to notice whether balls were underinflated.

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk  1m1 minute ago
Colts S Mike Adams says he was too excited after intercepting two Tom Brady passes in November to notice whether balls were underinflated.
 

 
Death by a thousand paper cuts

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

 
ProFootballTalk ‏@ProFootballTalk  1m1 minute ago
Colts S Mike Adams says he was too excited after intercepting two Tom Brady passes in November to notice whether balls were underinflated.
 

 
Been waiting for confirmation of this since D'Qwell Jackson said the same thing.

 

[TheoShmeo]

So now both Colts DBs who picked off Brady deny noticing that the balls were underinflated.  And Chuck Pagano similarly said he knew nothing about the NFL having been alerted prior to the AFC Championship Game. 
 
If all of the them are telling the truth, Mr. Grigson seems to be kind of alone.  Who told him that the balls were underinflated?  Bob Kravitz?  Jim Irsay?  Bill Irsay?  The Ghost of Patriot Whuppings on the Colts?

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Or the Ravens.

 

[Stitch01]

Love these quotes that show how much real estate the Pats have in various heads throughout the league.  Sounds like stuff teams would have said about Red in the 60s.

 

[E5 Yaz]

If all of the them are telling the truth, Mr. Grigson seems to be kind of alone.  Who told him that the balls were underinflated?  Bob Kravitz?  Jim Irsay?  Bill Irsay?  The Ghost of Patriot Whuppings on the Colts?

 
The key word, of course is "If." Who knows who's telling the truth anymore?

 

[Ed Hillel]

I really hope Wells goes down this avenue with Grigson. Don't just ask when he alerted the league, ask what his motivation was to suggest it in the first place. Maybe they're going to say the equipment guy noticed it after Adams' interception. My guess for what actually happened was Harbaugh got butt hurt after Brady's comment and told Pagano, which would make him a big liar as well.
 

The key word, of course is "If." Who knows who's telling the truth anymore?

 
Why would he lie about this, though? It would be easily refuted and he'd be destroyed by Wells.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Why would he lie about this?

 
Who knows? Maybe he doesn't want to get involved with entire mess. He's a free agent, so maybe he wants to concentrate on that.

 

[ifmanis5]

Is it fair to posit that among the under-inflated ball worries various teams have is a fundamental distrust of the NFL refs to do their jobs properly? Because the refs control the balls and are supposed to maintain them so that they meet the proper specs. As long as the refs do their jobs the balls shouldn't be an issue. Ever. So, do they trust the refs or not?

 

[mikeot]

Lead story in yesterday's Washington Post sports section, titled
 
"Was DeflateGate nothing more than just a bunch of hot air?"
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/deflategate-and-what-it-amounted-to-remains-an-open-question/2015/02/23/e01311dc-b9f1-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html?tid=pm_sports_pop

 

[E5 Yaz]

Lead story in yesterday's Washington Post sports section, titled
 
"Was DeflateGate nothing more than just a bunch of hot air?"
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/deflategate-and-what-it-amounted-to-remains-an-open-question/2015/02/23/e01311dc-b9f1-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html?tid=pm_sports_pop

 
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/88102-the-patriots-balls-this-is-the-thread-that-does-not-end-it-goes-on-and-on-my-friend/?p=5914503

 

[Rough Carrigan]

Love these quotes that show how much real estate the Pats have in various heads throughout the league.  Sounds like stuff teams would have said about Red in the 60s.

Yup. 
I think they should have fun with it.  Have guys in hazmat suits leave the opposing locker room just before the other team arrives each game. 

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

 
Been waiting for confirmation of this since D'Qwell Jackson said the same thing.

 
I stand corrected. This news has been out there for a month but apparently never made it past NorthJersey.com (Adams is from Paterson) and into the public consciousness:
 

 
“I had just picked off Tom Brady on ‘Sunday Night Football,’ I’m freaking thrilled, running to the sideline, flip the ball to our equipment manager and ask him if he could put that away for me,” Adams told The Record after he participated in the first Pro Bowl of his career here Sunday night. “There was nothing suspicious about those footballs. First I heard [allegations] of that was after the fact, after our playoff game when the report came out. A report said it started all the way back to me, and that just wasn’t true.”
 
Adams has the two footballs at his Indianapolis area home, and despite some jokes from friends, there are no plans to see at what level the PSI sits two months later. “I just wanted to clear the air with ESPN. Those weren’t my words. I didn’t accuse anyone of anything, both then and now,” Adams added.
 
“I want to move forward and I know the Patriots want to move forward. I’m 11 years into the league, there’s no reason for me to hide it now. There’s nothing for me to be afraid of, so if I did say something, I’d admit it. I was just glad to have the two picks of Tom Brady, not the balls.”

 

[Hoya81]

 
I stand corrected. This news has been out there for a month but apparently never made it past NorthJersey.com (Adams is from Paterson) and into the public consciousness:
 

The equipment manager holds the balls that players take out of circulation for turnovers/touchdowns until the game is over, right?

 

[tims4wins]

The equipment manager holds the balls that players take out of circulation for turnovers/touchdowns until the game is over, right?

 
That brings up the question - are teams even allowed to take balls out of circulation?

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Watch the "30 for 30" piece on the Pistons to see how getting into an opponent's head succeeds. Apparently anything that causes a sliver of doubt, or distracts a professional athlete's attention, works pretty well. 

 

[RetractableRoof]

Watch the "30 for 30" piece on the Pistons to see how getting into an opponent's head succeeds. Apparently anything that causes a sliver of doubt, or distracts a professional athlete's attention, works pretty well.

Mike Scott did a number on the Mets getting in their heads one year as well.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Mike Scott did a number on the Mets getting in their heads one year as well.

 
Gaylord Perry made the Hall of Fame by doing so?

 

[RetractableRoof]

Gaylord Perry made the Hall of Fame by doing so?

Off topic, but I think the inverse can also be true as well. Taking something (a tradition/routine/binky) away from some athletes can sometimes mess with their head as well. I think Clay is a case of that - he loses his way easily and I think he got himself into a tailspin when the spotlight cost him his bullfrog usage. It goes to show how special some athletes are (Pedro in Cleveland) with respect to mental toughness/discipline when circumstances would seem to indicate they should not be successful.

Note: I'm not dumping on Clay, just musing on how much of athletics is mental. Perhaps it is that at the top pro levels the physical talents differ less between players and the mental aspects are often the separaters.

 

[ifmanis5]

That brings up the question - are teams even allowed to take balls out of circulation?

Emmitt Smith did so 164 times.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Emmitt Smith did so 164 times.

 
 
True, although he was taking his own offense's footballs.

 

[DJnVa]

 
Gailey
Trestman
Jackson
Haley
Shurmur
Turner
 
"Respected." Probably Norv Turner. I don't think Gailey's really respected.

 
Is Turner respected?
 
I always remember this story from Bill Simmons:
 

Drove former Redskins coach Norv Turner from a $25 blackjack table last April at Mandalay (when the Coach was winning, no less) by looking at the ceiling and screaming, "The Coach ... is ... killing me." This happened after Turner was winning big and inexplicably turned conservative, staying on "16" three different times when the dealer had a "10" showing. If you know anything about Turner's tenure in Washington, you can attest to how funny this story is. I swear to God, it happened.
 

 

[Marciano490]

I stay on 16 against a ten, too.

Not that any part of that story is true, besides maybe Bill played blackjack at a casino, once. But saying staying on 16 is conservative is stupid.

 

[Spelunker]

I stay on 16 against a ten, too.

Not that any part of that story is true, besides maybe Bill played blackjack at a casino, once. But saying staying on 16 is conservative is stupid.

Aren't you *supposed* to be holding (or surrendering) in that situation?

That is, is this just another example of Simmons crowing and being entirely incorrect?

Edit: I bet BB would stand there as well.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

It's a Simmons-at-a-casino-story and is ergo complete garbage. I mean really.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Aren't you *supposed* to be holding (or surrendering) in that situation?
That is, is this just another example of Simmons crowing and being entirely incorrect?
Edit: I bet BB would stand there as well.

For most players it's a 50/50 thing. But the general rule of thumb is when at a table with other people it's considerate to be consistent. If you hit on 16 dealer showing 10, always hit. If you stay, always stay. I'm more of a feel player myself so I'm often cursed at but am usually tipsy enough that I don't give a flying fuck.

 

[TFP]

I stay on 16 against a ten, too.

Not that any part of that story is true, besides maybe Bill played blackjack at a casino, once. But saying staying on 16 is conservative is stupid.

 
 

Aren't you *supposed* to be holding (or surrendering) in that situation?

That is, is this just another example of Simmons crowing and being entirely incorrect?

Edit: I bet BB would stand there as well.

 
 

For most players it's a 50/50 thing. But the general rule of thumb is when at a table with other people it's considerate to be consistent. If you hit on 16 dealer showing 10, always hit. If you stay, always stay. I'm more of a feel player myself so I'm often cursed at but am usually tipsy enough that I don't give a flying fuck.

 
Wait what? You surrender because your hand is so bad you shouldn't even keep playing with it and save your money. Why would you also stay with that hand? The book absolutely says to hit with 16 against a 10. If you don't want to play by the book, that's more than fine, but the right play is to hit and to stay is being conservative. BB would hit there 10 out of 10 times.

 

[Spelunker]

Yeah, my mistake. I was looking at various odds charts lying in bed, apparently half asleep enough to be unable to see properly. Carry on.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I don't know if "conservative" is the right word. I could see the argument that standing is less "conservative." If you know the odds, it's actually gambling, or playing a hunch, which is not conservative. Hitting is the conservative play.

Whatever the semantics, what it is, is being scared. It's avoiding the high chance of an immediate loss and hanging in there a little longer, but in the process making the choice that gives you less of a chance to win. Sounds like Norv to me. The football equivalent might be down by 11 with five minutes left on your opponent's ten yard line, fourth and one. Just made that up, but let's say going for it gives you a slightly better chance of winning. Many coaches will kick to make it a "one possession game." What they are doing there is not wanting to make the hard decision that could essentially end the game right there and instead they are making the worse decision to try to stay in the game a little longer. That's standing on 16 against a 10. (Though if you're playing in a game where the dealer peeks at the hole card with a ten, I think the advantage of hitting over standing is very small. Either way, Norv is a chicken shit. I'm sure he doesn't split 8s against a ten either.)

 

[Leather]

How many times do people have to point out that the odds are the same, whether or not someone "steals" your card.  
 
It's post-hoc bullshit.

 

[TFP]

How many times do people have to point out that the odds are the same, whether or not someone "steals" your card.  
 
It's post-hoc bullshit.

 
That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

[TFP]

I don't know if "conservative" is the right word. I could see the argument that standing is less "conservative." If you know the odds, it's actually gambling, or playing a hunch, which is not conservative. Hitting is the conservative play.

Whatever the semantics, what it is, is being scared. It's avoiding the high chance of an immediate loss and hanging in there a little longer, but in the process making the choice that gives you less of a chance to win. Sounds like Norv to me. The football equivalent might be down by 11 with five minutes left on your opponent's ten yard line, fourth and one. Just made that up, but let's say going for it gives you a slightly better chance of winning. Many coaches will kick to make it a "one possession game." What they are doing there is not wanting to make the hard decision that could essentially end the game right there and instead they are making the worse decision to try to stay in the game a little longer. That's standing on 16 against a 10. (Though if you're playing in a game where the dealer peeks at the hole card with a ten, I think the advantage of hitting over standing is very small. Either way, Norv is a chicken shit. I'm sure he doesn't split 8s against a ten either.)

 
Hitting is the right play, even though it's counter-intuitive, but I don't think that makes it conservative. I definitely see what you're getting at, so it's probably just coming down to our individual definitions of "conservative". I see it similar to a 4th down decision like you mention. The odds tell you to do one thing, but you do the other because it's "safer" and less prone to criticism later. Any man that goes for 4th and 2 against Indy absolutely hits with 16 against a 10.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

The best rule of thumb is probably to hit a two card 16 against a 10 while standing on a three card 16, especially if it includes a 4 or 5.

Ultimately, it really doesn't matter much at all. You're nearly equally screwed either way.

 

[Leather]

 
That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 
Isn't Simmons saying Turner was "Killing him" by being conservative (i.e. not calling for another card?).  
 
EDIT: and, I mean,if you want to be a wise ass about it: explain to me what any of this has to do with the Patriots deflated footballs, again?

 

[TFP]

 
Isn't Simmons saying Turner was "Killing him" by being conservative (i.e. not calling for another card?).  
 
EDIT: and, I mean,if you want to be a wise ass about it: explain to me what any of this has to do with the Patriots deflated footballs, again?

It read that you were responding to our conversation about hitting on 16 and if it mattered, not Simmons' initial point complaining about the coach. Be clearer in your writing next time.
 
And after 285 pages, I'm not about to take on the task of keeping this thread perfectly on topic. That's a task for someone far better than I.