#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[DegenerateSoxFan]

If I were Kraft, I would insist on Goodell personally attending the ring ceremony in September, and make a huge public stink if he declines.  Make him risk his life walking into Gillette after this, please.

The highest decibel level ever recorded in a stadium was 142.2 at Arrowhead Stadium on September 29, 2014 during the Pats-Chiefs game. Even with the noise-bleeding design of Gillette, I think the booing that would accompany a Goodell sighting in Foxboro would shatter this.

 

[Bergs]

If Kraft really believes he can get Roger booted in the next 11 months, what's to stop a hypothetical next commissioner to review the findings and reinstate the picks? If Brady's appeal is blindingly successful - to the point it strongly rebukes the NFL's process and decisionmaking and publicly paints Goodell as the massive fuckhead we all know him to be - can RK leverage that into a palace coup? And if so, who cares about the team appeal, because the next commish can make it go away before the '16 draft.

 

[Myt1]

Do you really feel that way?  I would gladly agree to have Brady serve this whole suspension in exchange for the picks back.

I feel that way and I have no doubt the Krafts do too. The suspension is what made this personal.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Yeah, I'm not too worried about it. The Patriots are setting this up so its them and Brady against Wells and the NFL, only the NFL and Wells were supposed to be neutral. The takedown of the report will eventually do more good than harm in the court of public opinion judging whether this was a screw job, and when one of your sons gets pilloried and railroaded, that's just what you do.

Wells's problems yesterday and in the report were systemic. I'm less worried about a lack of perfection in the decisions going into the takedown. When your adversary has been controlling the narrative since January with selective false leaks and then you get hit with the piece of shit they got, it's scorched earth time.

The Pats' response ensures this isn't going to fade from the headlines while the process plays out, which is what we were worried about yesterday.

 
Very well said.

 

[PseuFighter]

That is my understanding as well, which puts pressure on Goodell to decide quickly who is hearing it -- himself, one of his "independent" arbitrators, or a genuinely independent arbitrator.

Brady has no interest in agreeing to a delay before the hearing examiner is identified. He'll want to know quickly who he has to persuade. I would argue he has no interest in a delay after that, but it depends on whether his lawyers are ready to go.

If this appeal goes south, he'll want to get his court papers ready after that.

 
Thanks. So let's say it gets heard in the next ten days. Is there a time to respond after that? And if that fails, it goes to court? (most likely?)
 
Assuming it goes that route, any chance it drags on to the point where the courts could issue some injunction allowing Brady to play until it gets heard?
 
Just trying to fully understand the options on how this could play out. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Harry Hooper]

I feel that way and I have no doubt the Krafts do too. The suspension is what made this personal.

 
I disagree. Kraft acted to stop the escalating penalties. He's not going to accept handing over a 1st rounder every time any sort of infraction (large or small) occurs for the Pats.

 

[nighthob]

If I were Kraft, I would insist on Goodell personally attending the ring ceremony in September, and make a huge public stink if he declines.  Make him risk his life walking into Gillette after this, please.

And they should have this song playing as part of the three minute tribute to The Artless Roger and Ted Wells...
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPZuYwYxnL4

 

[dcmissle]

 
Thanks. So let's say it gets heard in the next ten days. Is there a time to respond after that? And if that fails, it goes to court? (most likely?)
 
Assuming it goes that route, any chance it drags on to the point where the courts could issue some injunction allowing Brady to play until it gets heard?
 
Just trying to fully understand the options on how this could play out. Fascinating stuff.

Case is supposed to be heard in 10 days, but there is no time specified for a decision. An arbitrator would be justified spending a full month before issuing a decision.

If the decision is adverse, Brady then files the court case. The complaint would be accompanied by a request for a temporary restraining order/preliminary injunction to prevent the suspension from going into effect.

It's in the team's and TB's interest to tee this up asap, as you want a ruling by mid-to-late August. That sounds far away. It isn't.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

If Kraft really believes he can get Roger booted in the next 11 months, what's to stop a hypothetical next commissioner to review the findings and reinstate the picks? If Brady's appeal is blindingly successful - to the point it strongly rebukes the NFL's process and decisionmaking and publicly paints Goodell as the massive fuckhead we all know him to be - can RK leverage that into a palace coup? And if so, who cares about the team appeal, because the next commish can make it go away before the '16 draft.

 
I think a coup, at least in the next 12 months, is very unlikely for a variety of reasons.
 
-It goes against NFL practices and precedent.  They've only had three commissioners and the previous two have retired largely on their own terms (Tagliabue was urged out the door according to some, but there was no coup by any means).
 
-The optics of Goodell being removed at Kraft's behest are terrible.  They would get absolutely killed by people claiming that Kraft ran the league and that the Patriots not only cheated but were getting away with it because their owner was too powerful.
 
-A substantial number of owners clearly are happy to see the Patriots get their comeuppance.  Kraft might have allies but he would need 75% of the votes to remove Goodell from what I understand.  I just don't see that kind of coalition lining up behind him, especially given the points above.

 

[Captaincoop]

I feel that way and I have no doubt the Krafts do too. The suspension is what made this personal.

 
Putting aside emotions, the picks impact the team on the field more than losing Tom Brady for 4 games.

 

[pappymojo]

I feel that way and I have no doubt the Krafts do too. The suspension is what made this personal.

This was the beauty of the way the NFL let the anonymous leaks set the narrative, used the Wells report to cement the narrative and then announced the punishment. They fucked Brady and the Patriots both and together in almost every manner.

The NFL has forever tarnished the reputation of and publicly embarrassed the team's most iconic player.

This is no longer about finding peace or hoping for a lessened punishment.

 

[Shelterdog]

I believe that Kraft is also trying to appease his team's fan base. If I, as a Patriots fan, think that Kraft did not do right by Brady (and Belichick), and they then retire, my allegiance to the team is a lot weaker. If, however, Kraft goes all-in publicly in support of Brady (and Belichick) and they retire, my allegiance to the team remains much stronger. This is 'us versus them' and Kraft is now firmly on the 'us' side.

 
It's also about the team's reputation.  He wants the brand to be the equivalent of the Packers--adored and revered by most for a history of excellence--and not the Raiders--cheaters and bad dudes famous for their insane owner and beloved by street gangs.

 

[Captaincoop]

 
It's also about the team's reputation.  He wants the brand to be the equivalent of the Packers--adored and revered by most for a history of excellence--and not the Raiders--cheaters and bad dudes famous for their insane owner and beloved by street gangs.

 
Well, that ship has sailed.

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
It's also about the team's reputation.  He wants the brand to be the equivalent of the Packers--adored and revered by most for a history of excellence--and not the Raiders--cheaters and bad dudes famous for their insane owner and beloved by street gangs.

 
I agree that's what he wants. But I think that chances of that happening are slim and fat.

 

[Bleedred]

I would have expected this under Kiam or the Sullivans but never Bob Kraft.

All the reasons why Wells' presser was stupid apply here, but more so because of the Pats' baggage.

This isn't going to move the needle in our favor one iota; in fact, it probably makes it worse. The brand takes a beating.

It certainly will not help with Goodell or the owners; in fact, it probably hurts.

And the irony is, in an appeal, the team could have made these points confidentially (not a public proceeding) and without giving the adversary prior notice.

I know Bob signed off, but he is getting old. If this is Jonathan's coming out party, that's not good news for us.

This worries me a lot.  The rebuttal looks like a Jonathan thing more than a Bob one....ALL CAPS and all.  

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

What a horrible coincidence! The very nickname given to him would be the exact thing that would bring him down!

i dont want this to go unappreciated.

 

[dcmissle]

This was the beauty of the way the NFL let the anonymous leaks set the narrative, used the Wells report to cement the narrative and then announced the punishment. They fucked Brady and the Patriots both and together in almost every manner.

The NFL has forever tarnished the reputation of and publicly embarrassed the team's most iconic player.

This is no longer about finding peace or hoping for a lessened punishment.

And this is seen as a problem in 6 states ... I would have played the game a bit longer and tried to get the team's punishment diminished.

Before today, there may have been a fair chance of that happening -- if only to allow Roger to demonstrate that he can be "fair".

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, I'm not too worried about it. The Patriots are setting this up so its them and Brady against Wells and the NFL, only the NFL and Wells were supposed to be neutral. The takedown of the report will eventually do more good than harm in the court of public opinion judging whether this was a screw job, and when one of your sons gets pilloried and railroaded, that's just what you do.

Wells's problems yesterday and in the report were systemic. I'm less worried about a lack of perfection in the decisions going into the takedown. When your adversary has been controlling the narrative since January with selective false leaks and then you get hit with the piece of shit they got, it's scorched earth time.

The Pats' response ensures this isn't going to fade from the headlines while the process plays out, which is what we were worried about yesterday.

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJdKA4OvRRQ

 

[E5 Yaz]

DoritoDink has a twitter account

 

[yep]

Even given the leaks and the bias, the point of no return was the defiant and brazen series of Pats press conferences. The adamant and unequivocal lies (assuming guilt), and the arrogant, absolutist tenor made it impossible for this to be a cooperative outcome.

If you're going to lie to the press, publicly call out your boss, demand an apology, and promise full transparency on national tv... That's a declaration of war.

It doesn't matter how petty the offense, if you do that and then it turns out you were lying, and you get caught in a cover-up, you have to expect the hammer.

 

[kartvelo]

Even given the leaks and the bias, the point of no return was the defiant and brazen series of Pats press conferences. The adamant and unequivocal lies (assuming guilt), and the arrogant, absolutist tenor made it impossible for this to be a cooperative outcome.

If you're going to lie to the press, publicly call out your boss, demand an apology, and promise full transparency on national tv... That's a declaration of war.

It doesn't matter how petty the offense, if you do that and then it turns out you were lying, and you get caught in a cover-up, you have to expect the hammer.

Well, then, if such a thing ever happens, they should expect the hammer.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

You may be right on the leaks issue.

The major point I was trying to make is this - the NFL deliberately or negligently let this issue develop. Once Grigson received word that a game ball was underinflated, they were in a jam. They hadn't done anything of substance on the first warning. That would sound very bad in the press. They knew Grigson would go public with this at some point, and was certain to do it quickly if the NFL didn't react.

So they did, with a screwed up half time check. They then tried to get ahead of the curve, by treating any violation as an act against nature, with a Claude Rains type reaction of shock. This created a new dynamic, and here we are.

It wasn't a big deal until the NFL allowed it to get out of hand.

 
I agree with you across the board.  Well said.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Just saw a bit from NESN.com saying the Pats told the league that Jaguars ballboys saw Colts ballboys with inflation needles in their hands in a game between JAX and IND earlier last year.

 

[Shelterdog]

 
Well, that ship has sailed.

 
 

 
I agree that's what he wants. But I think that chances of that happening are slim and fat.

 
I agree with you both but do think that this fight is not just about hurt feelings or the negative effect the punishment will have on the team.  It's also about trying to maintain the value of the franchise's brand which, while hard to quantify is also very real.

 

[kartvelo]

Just saw a bit from NESN.com saying the Pats told the league that Jaguars ballboys saw Colts ballboys with inflation needles in their hands in a game between JAX and IND earlier last year.

That's in the rebuttal.

 

[Harry Hooper]

In regard to Pash's letter that insists Wells would not look into NFL personnel potential misbehavior, he blames the media frenzy surrounding the Super Bowl for the leaks and sidesteps the convenient timing of the leaks -- especially the one timed to break during the Patriots' Monday flight to AZ.

 

[MedfieldFan]

One point that I haven't heard anyone bring up - the timing of the penalties hurt.     I have to believe that if the Patriots knew they were going to lose a 2016 first rounder, they might have gone in for the extra money on Revis.

 

[NavaHo]

I don't know about you guys, but I can't wait to hear the results of the NFL's internal investigation into the league and the Colts! Right?

 

[Ferm Sheller]

One point that I haven't heard anyone bring up - the timing of the penalties hurt.     I have to believe that if the Patriots knew they were going to lose a 2016 first rounder, they might have gone in for the extra money on Revis.

But lost out on Malcom Brown, who by all accounts was a steal

Edit: to be clear, I'm saying they would have been docked a first rounder this year

 

[Ed Hillel]

In regard to Pash's letter that insists Wells would not look into NFL personnel potential misbehavior, he blames the media frenzy surrounding the Super Bowl for the leaks and sidesteps the convenient timing of the leaks -- especially the one timed to break during the Patriots' Monday flight to AZ.

He may have also mentioned that the league had knowledge of facts contrary to the reports and could have squashed them at any time. Or at least tempered them.

 

[Myt1]

 
Putting aside emotions, the picks impact the team on the field more than losing Tom Brady for 4 games.

Only in a very narrow scope.

The inability to properly measure the impact of Tom Brady generally notwithstanding, you're talking about the face of the franchise who led to one of the most successful runs in the history of American sports and the man has sacrificed--relatively, I know we're talking about a professional athlete--for the good of the team and the concept of how the team is run for the ultimate, cold blooded success. He's seen receivers and linemen come and go, and seen what some of his peers have been given to work with that would pad their stats, possibly to the detriment of their teams' success. He is, with no exaggeration, one of the best success stories in the history of sports.

And that guy just got fucked as publicly as can happen in today's day and age. His integrity and credibility were just torched and the kindling was as empty as it possibly could have been.

If you care at all about your team, your players, and your legacy, you go all in for Brady here, calculations regarding a marginal win be damned.

This isn't to say that I don't acknowledge dc's point. He's right to some extent. But eventually, you just have to punch back. That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more.

 

[Doctor G]

And this is seen as a problem in 6 states ... I would have played the game a bit longer and tried to get the team's punishment diminished.

Before today, there may have been a fair chance of that happening -- if only to allow Roger to demonstrate that he can be "fair".

I think Goodell is primarily interested in demonstrating that he can be decisive. The other owners do not want him to be fair.
he is trying to ge the stink of Rice off his hands. 

 

[Harry Hooper]

I don't know about you guys, but I can't wait to hear the results of the NFL's internal investigation into the league and the Colts! Right?

 
There's an alternate universe where Kraft and Goodell concocted this whole thing together as a stunt to identify everyone at NFL HQ who needed to be cashiered. It's not this one, though.

 

[Myt1]

The other thing is that Roger and Ted are Caesar and Caesar's wife. They're the ones who have to be above reproach. It's a little like the different set of standards for the government vs. the private litigant or the defense.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

I don't know about you guys, but I can't wait to hear the results of the NFL's internal investigation into the league and the Colts! Right?

They tried to decipher Jim Irsay's text messages but they all said 'abshdhfhe d bdbdheu sssddffszds'.

 

[dcmissle]

It's quite amazing what you give away when you sign up as an owner. As succinctly summarized by Seifert in an ESPN piece:

Article VIII of the NFL constitution gives the commissioner, and by proxy the league office, "full, complete and final jurisdiction" to resolve disputes. It also gives the commissioner "complete authority" to issue discipline for rules violations. Finally, Article IX expressly prohibits public criticism of the league by member clubs, stating: "All complaints or criticism ... shall be made to the Commissioner only and shall not be publicized directly or indirectly."

The 20,000 words today crapped all over that last sentence. I don't believe we will see follow-up discipline for that, but there really hasn't been anything like this since Al Davis.

 

[Super Nomario]

Even given the leaks and the bias, the point of no return was the defiant and brazen series of Pats press conferences. The adamant and unequivocal lies (assuming guilt), and the arrogant, absolutist tenor made it impossible for this to be a cooperative outcome.

If you're going to lie to the press, publicly call out your boss, demand an apology, and promise full transparency on national tv... That's a declaration of war.

It doesn't matter how petty the offense, if you do that and then it turns out you were lying, and you get caught in a cover-up, you have to expect the hammer.

 
You may be right ... but I think you're forgetting what the environment was like at the time. Belichick and Brady had a couple "we don't know what happened" press conferences, with the result that the media raked them over the coals, suggested that Belichick was throwing Brady under the bus, that Kraft didn't have folks' backs, etc. After Belichick and Kraft had strong press conferences with a unified front, the team was able to move on to Super Bowl preparation without this becoming a massive distraction. Those press conferences effectively became the final word on things until the Wells Report came out. Maybe it did result in the antagonism that led to this outcome, but the league's leaks beforehand (as well as their actions around Spygate) don't give me a lot of confidence that a less antagonistic approach would have resulted in a vastly different penalty. Once Wells and his multi-million-dollar report were involved, there was no chance of this becoming a token penalty. You don't commission a $5 MM report so you can fine someone $25K / ball.
 
Let's assume (as the thread posits) the Patriots are 100% guilty. Would it have been smart of them to be contrite and fess up, or lie and try to win the Super Bowl and deal with the consequences later? Given the inconsistency in past penalties, there's no ruling out Goodell suspending Brady for the Super Bowl. It was probably smart to lie, which is just another way in which the capricious and draconian penalties ultimately hurt rather than help the league's integrity.

 

[Reverend]

It's quite amazing what you give away when you sign up as an owner. As succinctly summarized by Seifert in an ESPN piece:

Article VIII of the NFL constitution gives the commissioner, and by proxy the league office, "full, complete and final jurisdiction" to resolve disputes. It also gives the commissioner "complete authority" to issue discipline for rules violations. Finally, Article IX expressly prohibits public criticism of the league by member clubs, stating: "All complaints or criticism ... shall be made to the Commissioner only and shall not be publicized directly or indirectly."

The 20,000 words today crapped all over that last sentence. I don't believe we will see follow-up discipline for that, but there really hasn't been anything like this since Al Davis.

 

 

[Myt1]

If the guy were Catholic, he would have had the doors to the Cathedral sealed and started yelling at God in Latin.

 

[Shelterdog]

I don't know about you guys, but I can't wait to hear the results of the NFL's internal investigation into the league and the Colts! Right?

 
I think this is the one place where Wells and Paul, Weiss really screwed up .  The report says there was no bias, Wells says there was not bias but if the Pats' response is accurate PW DIDN'T FUCKING INVESTIGATE BIAS.
 
Not quite sure what their basis is for the bias statements.

 

[BusRaker]

Kraft should form his own league with the Pats. The winner of their league can play the NFL winner in the World Championship of Football.

 

[NavaHo]

The Wells Report states that they "found no evidence of bias" on the part of the NFL. It's really hard to find something when you're not looking for it.

 

[Hoya81]

If the guy were Catholic, he would have had the doors to the Cathedral sealed and started yelling at God in Latin.

http://youtu.be/dVgK5HKj3P4

 

[Average Reds]

It's quite amazing what you give away when you sign up as an owner. As succinctly summarized by Seifert in an ESPN piece:

Article VIII of the NFL constitution gives the commissioner, and by proxy the league office, "full, complete and final jurisdiction" to resolve disputes. It also gives the commissioner "complete authority" to issue discipline for rules violations. Finally, Article IX expressly prohibits public criticism of the league by member clubs, stating: "All complaints or criticism ... shall be made to the Commissioner only and shall not be publicized directly or indirectly."

The 20,000 words today crapped all over that last sentence. I don't believe we will see follow-up discipline for that, but there really hasn't been anything like this since Al Davis.

Agree with the Al Davis comparison, but disagree with the idea that there will be more discipline.

When your so-called independent investigator stages a contentious conference call to reiterate his findings in pointed language, you can't really blame the targets of his anger from pushing back.

Of course, as I'm writing this I realize that making an argument that this isn't a smart play probably means the odds are very high that Goodell imposes more discipline.

 

[Harry Hooper]

 
I think this is the one place where Wells and Paul, Weiss really screwed up .  The report says there was no bias, Wells says there was not bias but if the Pats' response is accurate PW DIDN'T FUCKING INVESTIGATE BIAS.
 
Not quite sure what their basis is for the bias statements.

 
This is probably another prime source of Kraft's rage. I think Roger flat out double-crossed him on this. Kraft had been led to expect the Wells team to investigate NFL HQ. 

 

[tims4wins]

Agree with the Al Davis comparison, but disagree with the idea that there will be more discipline.

When your so-called independent investigator stages a contentious conference call to reiterate his findings in pointed language, you can't really blame the targets of his anger from pushing back.

Of course, as I'm writing this I realize that making an argument that this isn't a smart play probably means the odds are very high that Goodell imposes more discipline.

I hope more discipline comes from this - I hope Rog takes away their next 10 first round picks tomorrow, if only to further illustrate how absurd his power is. At some point the other owners will have to realize how unhealthy this whole situation is and oust him.

 

[Pandemonium67]

I think losing the draft picks is a bigger blow than a 4-game Brady suspension. The suspension could cost the Pats a game (they go 2-2 instead of 3-1?), but it will also light a fire under Brady and the team once he's back. They will be on a mission. A lot of Super Bowl champs suffer from complacency; the 2015 Pats will have a significant emotional edge.
 
There's no way to quantify how much the lost draft picks would hurt, but the Pats are already in the disadvantageous position of drafting near the end of every round. This makes it that much worse. 
 
I want the suspension overturned, but I want the picks back even more.

 

[djbayko]

Agree with the Al Davis comparison, but disagree with the idea that there will be more discipline.

When your so-called independent investigator stages a contentious conference call to reiterate his findings in pointed language, you can't really blame the targets of his anger from pushing back.

Of course, as I'm writing this I realize that making an argument that this isn't a smart play probably means the odds are very high that Goodell imposes more discipline.

So you both agree that there won't be additional discipline

I agree with both of you, but just imagine what punishment the Patriots would get for a THIRD offense!

 

[BernieRicoBoomer]

Which one of you set up doritodink.com?

 

[PedroKsBambino]

So you both agree that there won't be additional discipline

I agree with both of you, but just imagine what punishment the Patriots would get for a THIRD offense!

 
I think they'd each be trying to get the other kicked out by that point---and Kraft would be deep into his antitrust suit.