#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


  • Total voters
    208

TheoShmeo

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I seriously doubt that Daniel Goldberg's seat is hot.
 
He, and his client who authorized it, indeed made one HORRIBLE decision.  Including the Deflator stuff in that paper took away from the credibility of the whole thing.
 
But that was a decision made by multiple parties and blaming the lawyer for it exclusively is unfair.  (My wild ass guess is that it's so ridiculous that it's true, and that all involved were too close to it to see how silly it would look.)
 
Things unfolded as they did, but I don't see how Goldberg is at fault.  The Pats' story did not resonate with the other owners, Kraft saw he could not win the appeal, and Kraft chose not to fight an unwinnable fight.  Sometimes you just have a crappy hand.  
 

Joshv02

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Did you know who Dan Goldberg was, and what he does, before last week?  Do you know what his client told him to do, how, etc? 

I have no idea how you, from the outside without seeing much of anything, measure the value of an attorney who you can't see actually doing things, or are told what he can do, or how to do it, etc.
 

AB in DC

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By the time that rebuttal paper was out, the ballgame basically over.  I don't blame Goldberg for that -- it was a Hail Mary that fell a few yards short of the end zone.
 
No, I'm talking about the ballgame that began January 19 and lasted through early May.  And yes, I know that most of you don't think of this as a game.  In most circumstances, I'd agree with you.  But I'm sorry, if the Colts and Jets and going to treat this like a game they can "win", then so can the Patriots.  It's a completely different game than everyone is used to playing, of course.  And it takes a completely different kind of team.  But I absolutely, 100% reject the notion that the Patriots cannot win this kind of game.
 

Leather

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Ok, playing along:
 
1) what is the game?
2) how do you define "winning"?
 

AB in DC

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Joshv02 said:
Did you know who Dan Goldberg was, and what he does, before last week?  Do you know what his client told him to do, how, etc? 
I have no idea how you, from the outside without seeing much of anything, measure the value of an attorney who you can't see actually doing things, or are told what he can do, or how to do it, etc.
 
Does anyone know what the Red Sox pitching coach does?  I doubt it.  Yet there was a big thread about him on the main board.  And no one at SOSH has ever been shy about second-guessing the a coach's or manager's decisions, just because we have no idea how to be a good coach or manager.  If I have to a football expert to criticize a football team, or if I have to know exactly what a a coach does before I can criticize him, then we might as well all go home.
 

NYCSox

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Wow. Remind me never to take you as a client.
 
As Theo notes, all these decisions are made by the client after consultation and advice is provided by the lawyer. The ultimate decisions are always made by the client.
 

bankshot1

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geoduck no quahog said:
Or that tweedledee and tweedledumb are going to go public, confess and incriminate others, for some dosh.

Edit: OTOH here's a guy that supposedly threatened to go to ESPN if he didn't get some sneakers, so I imagine he would have sung to someone by now for $800 and change.
shouldn't we refer to those guys as Needledumb and Needledee?
 

joe dokes

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AB in DC said:
 
 
No, I'm talking about the ballgame that began January 19 and lasted through early May.  And yes, I know that most of you don't think of this as a game.  In most circumstances, I'd agree with you.  But I'm sorry, if the Colts and Jets and going to treat this like a game they can "win", then so can the Patriots.  It's a completely different game than everyone is used to playing, of course.  And it takes a completely different kind of team.  But I absolutely, 100% reject the notion that the Patriots cannot win this kind of game.
 
And what was the lawyer's role in this contest beginning January 19?
 

joe dokes

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AB in DC said:
 
Does anyone know what the Red Sox pitching coach does?  I doubt it.  Yet there was a big thread about him on the main board.  And no one at SOSH has ever been shy about second-guessing the a coach's or manager's decisions, just because we have no idea how to be a good coach or manager.  If I have to a football expert to criticize a football team, or if I have to know exactly what a a coach does before I can criticize him, then we might as well all go home.
 
I'll play.  What should Goldberg have done?
 

AB in DC

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drleather2001 said:
Ok, playing along:
 
1) what is the game?
2) how do you define "winning"?
 
Re #1, the game is to defeat your adversaries. That part is simple.
 
#2 is a tougher quesiton.  The goal of a football team is to (a) make money and (b) become the champions.  As fans, most of us don't care about (a).  But whatever happened over the last four months, clearly it affect the Patriots' ability to win championships, just like blowing a winnable game against a 2-14 team would affect a team's ability to win a championship that year.  That's where I'd start, but I don't pretend to have all the answers.
 

dcmissle

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The display of ignorance in this post is simply stunning.

You're basically complaining about a lawyer not being able to overcome a crooked judge when the rules don't allow for an appeal.

There could be plenty of things Goldberg should have done differently. None of them would have changed this outcome.
I wish we got one percent of the professional deference that is routinely afforded to our esteemed orthopedic surgeon. People understandably hate lawyers, as the average person's experience with them is not pleasant. But it's really hard to be an excellent one.
 

joe dokes

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AB in DC said:
 
Re #1, the game is to defeat your adversaries. That part is simple.
 
#2 is a tougher quesiton.  The goal of a football team is to (a) make money and (b) become the champions.  As fans, most of us don't care about (a).  But whatever happened over the last four months, clearly it affect the Patriots' ability to win championships, just like blowing a winnable game against a 2-14 team would affect a team's ability to win a championship that year.  That's where I'd start, but I don't pretend to have all the answers.
 
Will you pretend to have *any* of the answers? I ask because you laid the lion's share of the "blame" on Goldberg. Surely you must have more to base this on other than "his side lost so he must be to blame"? Or, in the words of famous not-a-lawyer Peggy Lee,  "Is that all there is?"
 

Marciano490

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joe dokes said:
 
I'll play.  What should Goldberg have done?
 
Something else, clearly.
 
You know who was a crappy general?  Leonidas.  Chump.  Hannibal was pretty shitty, too.  Loser.
 

AB in DC

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NYCSox said:
Wow. Remind me never to take you as a client.
 
As Theo notes, all these decisions are made by the client after consultation and advice is provided by the lawyer. The ultimate decisions are always made by the client.
 
That's a fair point.  If you want to blame what happened on Kraft, I won't argue with you.  (I got blasted last time I tried, but whatever.)
 
But it's undoubtedly true that when the Red Sox keep losing, some of the blame falls on the manager, because that's who makes the decisions.  Or on Belichick when the Patriots lose.  And surely there is some truth to that.  But no manger, coach, CEO, or owner can do everything on his own.  It's a team effort.
 
 
So yeah, I'm going to Monday-morning-quarterback the decisions that the lawyers had a hand in.  But Monday-morning-quarterbacking is what fans do on a message board -- they criticize the manager, the coach, or whoever for making bad decisions that cost the team a win.  Am I right to criticize Goldberg?  I have no idea.  Was it Juan Nieves' fault that the Red Sox pitching sucked in April?  I have no idea, but he got fired anyway.
 

joe dokes

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AB in DC said:
 
That's a fair point.  If you want to blame what happened on Kraft, I won't argue with you.  (I got blasted last time I tried, but whatever.)
 
But it's undoubtedly true that when the Red Sox keep losing, some of the blame falls on the manager, because that's who makes the decisions.  Or on Belichick when the Patriots lose.  And surely there is some truth to that.  But no manger, coach, CEO, or owner can do everything on his own.  It's a team effort.
 
 
So yeah, I'm going to Monday-morning-quarterback the decisions that the lawyers had a hand in.  But Monday-morning-quarterbacking is what fans do on a message board -- they criticize the manager, the coach, or whoever for making bad decisions that cost the team a win.  Am I right to criticize Goldberg?  I have no idea.  Was it Juan Nieves' fault that the Red Sox pitching sucked in April?  I have no idea, but he got fired anyway.
 
 
Yes...but however uninformed we are, when we say "Farrell had his head up his ass," it's usually followed by "when he . . ." and then a particular action he took or didn't take. 
 
 
Marciano490 said:
 
 
 
You know who was a crappy general?  Leonidas.  Chump.  Hannibal was pretty shitty, too.  Loser.
Nobody lost more than Cy Young.  And those morons named an award after him.
 

AB in DC

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dcmissle said:
I wish we got one percent of the professional deference that is routinely afforded to our esteemed orthopedic surgeon. People understandably hate lawyers, as the average person's experience with them is not pleasant. But it's really hard to be an excellent one.
Actually, i wish it were the other way around.  I had a member of my family go in for orthopedic surgery a few years ago, and it made her situation worse, not better.  We found out afterward that the surgery was highly unlikely to be successful, and it was not recommended for her condition.  But it was highly profitable for the surgeon.  I know, stupid us for not researching the situation and finding this out before the surgery, but let's not say "professional deference" is always a good thing.
 
 
Sorry for the tangent.
 

Leather

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Marciano490 said:
 
Something else, clearly.
 
You know who was a crappy general?  Leonidas.  Chump.  Hannibal was pretty shitty, too.  Loser.
 
Napoleon was the worst, though.  I mean, it takes a special kind of dope to have his personal waterloo at fucking Waterloo!
 

joe dokes

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drleather2001 said:
 
Napoleon was the worst, though.  I mean, it takes a special kind of dope to have his personal waterloo at fucking Waterloo!
 
Lou Gehrig wasn't sharp enough to avoid catching a disease named after him.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
Goodell always gives a press conference at the end of the Owners Meetings, which conclude today. They referenced that before Kraft spoke. So you can't read anything into the fact that he is speaking today. What exactly he says could prove to be interesting.
 

BoneForYourJar

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I feel like this thread is starting to suffer from scope creep. [edit:  this post took a while to write, so the preceding sentence doesn't necessarily apply to the past half-dozen or so posts!]  It's one thing to put one's feelings about Kraft's handling of Deflategate into a broader context ('yes I'm pissed at him like hell for this, but taking everything into consideration I still am glad he's the Pats' owner'); it's another to turn our attention away entirely from the matter at hand to an involved discussion on Kraft's tenure.  I know, I know, this is what happens on message boards, I get it, but still: it dilutes the analysis.
 
Two things stand out for me about Kraft's statement yesterday, and make it especially shocking considering his previous public responses to this issue:
 
1.   The first thing that strikes me is the extent to which the statement is, above all, about affiliation and identification. 
 
Kraft declares where his ultimate allegiances lie in two steps: 
 
(a) He begins by (subtly but unmistakably) distancing himself from Patriots fans, describing us as one of two "polarizing audiences" (the other being fans of other teams).  The very structure of his argument sets us up as one of two irreconcilable blocs that is exerting pressure (through "rhetoric") upon him, and paints Kraft as the Peacemaker who will bring about a cessation of rhetorical hostilities. 
 
(b) What he does in the next few paragraphs constitutes an ever deeper, more candid declaration of affiliation and allegiance.  He talks about the goosebumps he felt when first welcomed to the confederation.  He tells us that the epiphany he lives by is the realization that "the heart and soul" of the league is the partnership between the 32 teams.  He is a team player, great; but notice what this is not saying: "the heart and soul" of the NFL is not its fans (who bring the passion and the revenue), much less the players:  it's "the partnership". 
 
Now, viewed outside of context there is nothing inherently wrong about such a candid acknowledgement of allegiance.  The problem is precisely the context:  since this whole shit-storm broke out, Kraft has been talking like the Great Chief of Patriots Nation, defending the honor of his team, coach, QB, and fans, asking for apologies, releasing extensive exposés of the Wells Report, etc.
 
2.  The second thing that strikes me about the statement is this:  some people are saying well, just wait, we don't know yet what concessions he obtained from Goodell; Kraft is a shrewd businessman...   In other words, the idea is that Kraft didn't concede without getting something in return.  I have a fundamental problem with this argument.  Even if Brady's suspension ends up getting reduced, Kraft will have failed to obtain something more important (in my view at least): saving face.  Kraft is walking away from this looking like someone who not only is accepting the discipline, but is no longer disagreeing with either its factual basis or its proportionality.   To the extent he alludes to disagreement, it's in the past tense  "I think I made it clear when the report came out that I didn't think it was fair".   He doesn't go so far as to disown his past views on the report, but he does not make it clear that he still holds them.   And I think this is a huge concession on his part:  in essence, he's walking away from this negotiation with nothing, not even the dignity of being able to say "I still disagree, but I will accept it".  
 
If he has in fact managed to get Brady's suspension reduced, that will be nice, I guess, but I don't think that makes up for what I see as a complete capitulation on the merits of the case.  Some people say "oh but if the suspension is reduced then we'll see how prudent Kraft was, and that he didn't do this for nothing", as if that would be how Kraft saves face here.  I disagree.   Saving face is about more than obtaining a few concessions from the victor (who after all can always be credited for being magnanimous and merciful).  It's about what you say as you step down.  It's about dignity.  Kraft has been shouting St. Crispin's Day speeches to us since Ballghazi broke out, and overnight he's like, "you know what, never mind, King Charles and the Dauphin are good guys, and for the peace of Europe let's retreat". 
 
Regardless of what I think of Kraft's tenure as a whole (I happen to think he's been a great owner), I find this combination of turnabout, capitulation, and distancing from the fanbase nauseating, unseemly, and above all unnecessary. 
 
So am I upset with the organization?  About this matter in particular?:  hell yeah.
 

SMU_Sox

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Well at least we now know who to blame. Clearly this was Goldberg's fault. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the mysterious deflator.

There was nothing he could do to win this. He had a knife in a gun fight. The deck was stacked against him. Another other analogous cliche works here. Topic locked in 3...2...1...
 

yecul

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The Napkin said:
Maybe it's not new?
 
 
 
And yet that's just what he was doing. Until he met with Goodell. And they hugged it out. Why start the fight in the first place? What made him change his mind?
 
 
 
I think it's far more likely that the potential damage and fallout was realized and/or articulated to him. The lack of support among his fellow owners, for example, would give him pause about moving forward. There is a big difference between putting up a website and ramping up the rhetoric and filing a lawsuit, IMO. Most likely RG made it clear he wouldn't budge and it'd take litigation, which Kraft probably didn't see as a desirable avenue to pursue.
 
But really this is just parsing it. I consider super secret (new) damning evidence that was withheld as being much less likely than the above or other possible scenarios. While I consider that possible I just don't see it as terribly likely.
 

nolasoxfan

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dcmissle said:
Yes ideal owner in almost every respect imaginable.

Except one. He chose to be the confidant and supporter of Putin. He abided Putin grabbing other people's oil companies and putting them in jail on trumped up charges.

Eventually, it's your turn. The more I think about this, the less sympathy I have for Bob Kraft. He brought it on himself. Obviously I have tons of sympathy for the fans, players and coaches who occupy the same jail cell.
All of whom had less recourse or ability to (re)act than Mr Kraft.
 

joe dokes

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The problem is precisely the context:  since this whole shit-storm broke out, Kraft has been talking like the Great Chief of Patriots Nation, defending the honor of his team, coach, QB, and fans, asking for apologies,
 
 
I dont know that he was defending the "honor of the fans."  I dont need Bob Kraft to "defend my honor."   (And it's an uphill batlle, anyway.)
 

Marciano490

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joe dokes said:
 
Lou Gehrig wasn't sharp enough to avoid catching a disease named after him.
 
Caesar got killed on the Ides of March.  Didn't he see the play?  Why didn't he beware?
 

Section15Box113

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AB in DC said:
 
Re #1, the game is to defeat your adversaries. That part is simple.
 
#2 is a tougher quesiton.  The goal of a football team is to (a) make money and (b) become the champions.  As fans, most of us don't care about (a).  But whatever happened over the last four months, clearly it affect the Patriots' ability to win championships, just like blowing a winnable game against a 2-14 team would affect a team's ability to win a championship that year.  That's where I'd start, but I don't pretend to have all the answers.
I don't get it.

Isn't winning defeating your adversaries?

Stepping back from that last post and focusing on the hot seat, no way is the lawyer there.

Did he provide bad legal guidance at any point in the process? From the evidence we've seen - in the Wells Report and via the website response - he seems to be doing his job: pushing avenues of investigation, laying out evidence, and generally protecting the interests of the NEP and its employees.

If your argument is that the direction that the process took was flawed, that would fall on Robert and Jonathan. As someone who frequently seeks legal advice in a professional setting, I can't imagine a scenario where the lawyer is making the business/strategic decisions for me. That's not why I've hired the lawyer. I'd want the lawyer to provide me with sound legal advice.

From what we've seen, the legal advice is reasonable. Furthermore, I would argue that the business approach - given the facts that were known at the time - was also reasonable.

What should the team have done differently?

Put out their version of the facts earlier? Both the coaching the quarterback did so. And they were firmly backed by the owner. I don't think there's anything they did in the first week that was based on poor legal advice.

Released the PSI measurements when known, despite requests to keep them private until the report is released? If you have faith that the report would be on the up and up, you don't do that. But again, a business call.

Taken the league to court in the face of overwhelming odds? I think the decision not to go that route was based on *sound* legal advice.

In fact, the only place I can take issue with the overall approach is the wording of the statement:

1. Not explicitly stating support for Brady.

2. Not explicitly proclaiming innocence, falling back instead on a statement that the evidence was circumstantial and the punishment unfair. (I would have also let that statement hang in the air for a moment, before pivoting to the decision whether to end it or extend it and point 3 below.)

3. The hugging and kissing of the commissioner and the other 31.

1. and 3. are Kraft's call, not legal's. 2. is likely Kraft's call as well - and as I state above, should have been stated more clearly and in a way that would let it sink in.

The only way legal plays a meaningful role in this statement (beyond a standard review) would be if the Patriots are guilty as charged and Kraft could not proclaim innocence or proclaim full support for Brady. In which case, he did his job - as unpalatable as that thought might be to most of us.
 

steveluck7

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yecul said:
 
I think it's far more likely that the potential damage and fallout was realized and/or articulated to him.
Certainly not disagreeing with this point but man, at what point do the owners stop and think "gee, if our commissioner can botch an invesitgation and punishment over possibly slightly under-inflated footballs to the point where there is potential for serious damage to the league, maybe he shouldn't be in this position."
 

Dahabenzapple2

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Frank Fucking Deford? I thought he was dead. He appears for this, Of course he would. For the integrity of SPORT. He defines it. Ask him. I'm sure he would tell US.
 
He is *the* IVORY TOWER
 
maybe we can add whatever Bryant Gumbel to what that pompous ass buffoon has to say about integrity
 
maybe we should ask them all about the errors of our society and maybe they will in the end excuse all the violence towards women as it is a societal issue anyways and they really don't hold anyone accountable anyway. Well they wouldn't admit but they believe it.
 
they sometimes pretend to be outraged only if the winds blow long and strong enough.
 
this one is an easy one. guy like Deford comes out of his grave to comment.
 
go after the fresh mango.
 

AB in DC

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joe dokes said:
 
 
Yes...but however uninformed we are, when we say "Farrell had his head up his ass," it's usually followed by "when he . . ." and then a particular action he took or didn't take. 
 
 
 
Well, I already listed him picking a fight over the second interview with McNally.  And that seems way more likely to have been his call than Kraft's, originally, though I'm sure Kraft signed off on it at some point.  But I've said my piece about that one.
 
Not having hiring your own scientists to conduct a separate analysis of the deflation is another one.  That may have been Kraft's call, but clearly they decided together that the Exponent report would be all they needed.  And we already know that there were plenty of other scientists offering their opinions back in January, so it's not like a second opinion would have been that hard to find.  If the Patriots had some respectable scientists on your side explaining that nothing unexpected actually happened to the balls, that would have gone a long way.  But they completely ceded the discussion to Wells and Exponent.  That means they lost control of the message.
 
There is a whole industry nowadays called "crisis management".  They're who the big corporations hire when they get hit with bad news in a very public way -- think Target with the data breach, or Toyota with their brakes, or any number of examples.  You could argue that this was Kraft's responsibility, not Goldberg's.  That's debatable.  But the mass football-watching public was basically the jury here, so the lawyer has to think about ways to win over the jury.  Again, a bit of Monday-morning-QB'ing here, but something that a good lawyer should have anticipated.
 
At a fundamental level, though, it was Goldberg's job to convince the client what the right strategy is.  Either Goldberg had the wrong strategy, or he failed to convince Kraft that a better strategy was indicated.  Either way, that's on him, at least to some degree.  Clearly they were caught completely off-guard by Wells and his report.  That tells me that there was a lack of preparation and contingency planning.  I find it hard to believe that a company's chief lawyer is completely blameless here.
 
 
I'm sorry if some of the lawyers here are taking this personally.  I'm not trying to disparage the profession as a whole.  And yeah, I'm sure there were plenty of times when lawyers lose cases and there was nothing they couldn't have done to change it.  But my gut tells me that this was a battle that the Patriots could have, and should have won.  Despite going up against a guy like Wells. 
 

yecul

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steveluck7 said:
Certainly not disagreeing with this point but man, at what point do the owners stop and think "gee, if our commissioner can botch an invesitgation and punishment over possibly slightly under-inflated footballs to the point where there is potential for serious damage to the league, maybe he shouldn't be in this position."
 
Is Kraft still an owner? Is the league still wildly popular and profitable? Are the Patriots not the same?

1. This outcome may suck for the on field team for the Pats, but the bottom line is not impacted. 
2. That's them, not us mentality.
3. The commissioner's power will be walked back over time or better clarified in regards to team discipline, IMO.
 

BoneForYourJar

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No, you're right.  It's more that he was identifying with the fans' views ("we share in their disappointment of how this one-sided investigation was handled, as well as the dismissal of the scientific evience supported by the Ideal Gas Law in the final report...")
 

lexrageorge

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What is the standard we are holding Bob Kraft to here?  
 
I do recall watching the NFL in the late 1980's and early 90's, and seeing the 49'ers, Giants, Cowboys, and Redskins win Super Bowl after Super Bowl.  I was even jealous of Denver and Buffalo.  I would see Jerry Jones parade around the Cowboys sideline on Monday Night Football and saying to myself "Why can't we have an owner like that?".   Recall at the time the Patriots were owned either by a total buffoon (Kiam) or by a man who was fully intent on moving the team after rescuing it from near certain bankruptcy. Meanwhile, Dallas was winning and raking in money. 
 
Yes, he bought the team for his own benefit, not for ours.  He is a businessman, and that is what businessmen do.  However, when the team was for sale, he could have easily taken the $75M lease buyout that Orthwein was offering prior to the team's move to St. Louis.  Kraft still would have made good coin from that deal; he bought the stadium and the land around it for almost nothing after Chuck Sullivan was forced to sell.  And the team would have been in St. Louis.  I think some folks here are understating the likelihood of that happening.  Orthwein had a buyer lined up; the NFL desperately wanted a team in St. Louis far more than they wanted one in a cold weather city with a fickle following.  I don't understand giving him no credit for his purchase.  
 
I also don't discount the financial stability of the team under Kraft's leadership.  Yes, the Lombardi's have helped.  And some of that was set in place by Orthwein before him.  Even today there are mismanaged franchises struggling in the NFL (although exactly how "struggling" they are remains open to debate).  
 
The CBA:  if Kraft is not around, does it get done?  Probably at some point; too many owners and players were losing money for it go on for a full season.  Does it get done as quickly?  By all accounts, probably not.  Do I care that some players and some owners were unhappy with the CBA?  Hell no; that's a classic sign of a compromise.  Why did Kraft do it?  Because he would lose money if games were cancelled.  Is that a noble purpose?  Don't really care.  I'd much rather have football to watch, especially during the few remaining years of the Brady window, than have a "better" CBA.  
 
He's kept out of Belichick's way.  Probably not that easy of a thing to do; the Football Life series showed Belichick kind of dissing Kraft from time to time. But it's worked.  
 
The above are all objective and easily measurable, IMO.  He's not perfect.  He is an owner; which means he's going to be focused on the bottom line first and foremost.  He's made mistakes; he will make future mistakes.  His allegiance will be to the NFL and the shield; that last part was certainly disappointing to some.  I know nothing about his personal character, nor do I really care to know any more.  It's irrelevant to me.  I'll make an assumption that he's no better or worse than the median character of the group of 32, as I really have nothing else to go on.  
 
Kraft made a deal with the devil when he bought the franchise; my deal with the devil is that I'll follow a team that is owned by an owner that runs the team as a business.   
 

yep

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Feb 3, 2006
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Red Sox Natin
I'm upset because at least one of the following two actions was a mistake that will have damaged the team in the long run:
 
1. The defiant, apology-demanding tone of the initial press conference, forcing a process devoid of face-saving outcomes, where one side had to win and the other side had to eat crow, and;
 
2. Capitulating and butt-kissing acceptance once the punishment came down.
 
Those cannot both have been good decisions. If one was in the best interests of the team, then the other was intrinsically detrimental. If one was the correct and wise action to take at the time, then it follows that the other was foolish and childish. I don't know enough about the underlying realities to know which was the mistake, and I can't predict alternate futures well enough to precisely calculate the cost differential between Bob Kraft's handling of the situation, versus an ideal handling of the situation, but the cost is something greater than zero, and I wager probably will have some lingering effect for years to come. 
 
So yeah, I think fans should be upset with ownership's handling of this mess. 
 

Dahabenzapple2

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Jun 20, 2011
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I can't get past that Frank Deford emerges to become OUR social conscience. 
 
It is a given when reading his arrogant self-righteous dictums that anyone who disagrees is an unthinking neanderthal socially unaware yahoo Patriot fan. 
 
 
same as it ever was for him and his ilk.
 

BlackJack

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Oct 11, 2007
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steveluck7 said:
Certainly not disagreeing with this point but man, at what point do the owners stop and think "gee, if our commissioner can botch an invesitgation and punishment over possibly slightly under-inflated footballs to the point where there is potential for serious damage to the league, maybe he shouldn't be in this position."
Given that other teams seem to think the Patriots habitually cheat, I think they see Goodell's actions in this case as a feature not a bug.
 

dcdrew10

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Dec 8, 2005
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It's been said before about 10 times, but I am disappointed, but mostly because of Kraft's role as Goodell's enabler/embolden-er. Kraft's public support for Goodell at every misstep is a big part of why the Patriots are in the situation they are in now. I can understand not trying to oust him after Spygate, since they did actually break the rules. I can see not making a big deal of the collusion when Dallas and Washington got screwed, because the CBA battle was coming up and you don't change horses mid-stream (and the fact that Goodell was just enforcing the owners' will) but to keep publicly supporting him after Bountygate, Adrian Peterson and Ray Rice (seriously why hasn't anyone asked him what Myra would have thought about the 2 game suspension?)? He really set himself up to get screwed. Also he has let the other owners use him as their public face (outside of Jerry Jones) and they all left him hanging in the wind.
 

Twilight

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Nov 17, 2006
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ivanvamp said:
Well it's certainly worse to beat your wife, but I do see a difference between committing crimes outside the confines of the sport and cheating within the confines of the sport.

I do wonder what role a league should play in terms of conduct of its players and management outside the confines of the sport. To what degree should a league hold players accountable for non sport violations or crimes? How does it compare to cheating within the game?
That's a very good and interesting question, of course. In the abstract, you could argue that a league should ignore extra-league violations and let our criminal justice system or society generally deal with those issues. But practically speaking, I don't think it makes sense for a league to do so, and neither does the NFL.
 
To the extent the players represent the league to the public, the league probably should be concerned. There is a perception that the league *should* respond to a non-football situation like the Ray Rice incident, as evidenced by the reaction to a too-lenient punishment. There is a cost to the league if they don't respond--no matter how many principled intentions to boycott evaporate on Sunday. I'm sure the cost to the NFL is pretty low right now, but that might not always be the case.
 
DeFord, however, didn't try to exclude non-football incidents; he included wife beating in his hierarchy of punishable offenses. It's just not as bad as messing with the equipment. Allegedly.
 
I've written to NPR and will go back to changing the channel when he comes on--I shouldn't have been listening in the first place. Apologies for inflicting his idiocy on the board.