Maybe we can compromise and have Tom be suspended for the four pre-season games. They are important--otherwise, why would NFL owners charge full price for the tickets and demand that season-ticket holders purchase them?
#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
Did any of the e-mails and stuff released by the Patriots' lawyers include any request from the league to suspend the ballboys? It would be nice to have something putting the lie to Goodell's claim.
The draft pick is a huge blow - here's a list of guys taken between 31-61 in the 2008 draft who have made at least 1 Pro Bowl that the Pats could have drafted with their first rounder:
Brandon Flowers
Jordy Nelson
Matt Forte
DeSean Jackson
Calais Campbell
Ray Rice
Martellus Bennett
Who knows who the Pats might have picked there - but the chances of getting an impact player are pretty high. And who knows how that might have impacted subsequent seasons.
Yeah, it won't "ruin" any seasons, and they can overcome it, but it's a huge handicap. They could also spot every team a 3 point lead and still probably win 10-11 games, but that doesn't mean I won't be pissed about it.
It's also true that Kraft had no avenue for appeal - so while I'm emotionally upset as a fan of the Pats, I recognize he really didn't have any other viable course of action here.
I also have an irrational level of anger about the fact that the Pats can't trade into either of those rounds where those 2 picks were taken. It seems like an unnecessary addition just to stick the knife in a little further.
Brandon Flowers
Jordy Nelson
Matt Forte
DeSean Jackson
Calais Campbell
Ray Rice
Martellus Bennett
Who knows who the Pats might have picked there - but the chances of getting an impact player are pretty high. And who knows how that might have impacted subsequent seasons.
Yeah, it won't "ruin" any seasons, and they can overcome it, but it's a huge handicap. They could also spot every team a 3 point lead and still probably win 10-11 games, but that doesn't mean I won't be pissed about it.
It's also true that Kraft had no avenue for appeal - so while I'm emotionally upset as a fan of the Pats, I recognize he really didn't have any other viable course of action here.
I also have an irrational level of anger about the fact that the Pats can't trade into either of those rounds where those 2 picks were taken. It seems like an unnecessary addition just to stick the knife in a little further.
Are you talking the preSuperbowl conference? Because I agree with TheoShmeo: I think that accomplished a more urgent goal for the team.yep said:
Holy crap people. They had a first round pick taken away in 2007 and have been to two fucking super bowls since then. Please stop acting like that's some kind of death penalty.
Mooch said:
Congratulations on the employment! Exciting stuff.
How do you see this going down?
RG: Tom, I've thought about it and we are willing to drop the entire suspension if you just hand over your cell phone.
TB: Sounds good bro! Have at it.
(Tom hands Roger phone)
RG: OK! (looks at phone) But.. these texts are showing you did had the balls deflated!
TB: You got that right!
RG: But...I did make that promise. You win this time Tom! Well played!
I could absolutely see that weasel Goodell doing something like this to avoid Brady going to court but retaining the ability to claim victory by still saying he suspended Brady.deanx0 said:
Just like drafting badly, there is a cumulative effect if the team keeps getting docked picks.
Freddy Linn said:
Seriously, no words. An absolute clown.
Brady can NOT give up the fight and the only reason he would do so is if he is guilty and giving the phone up in court would prove it. Otherwise who gives a shit about what Kraft did and what the league wants, take it all the way.
Except they don't charge full price anymore, at least in Foxboro. They're half price. They did institute tiered pricing in the regular season to make up for it though which works much better for season ticket holders.deanx0 said:
BigSoxFan said:
Losing picks sucks. No argument there. And I would have enjoyed the steel cage match as much as anyone. But I don't see that #32 pick hamstringing anything. It didn't before.
I strongly doubt Goodell has some smoking gun that he's using against Kraft. That's not his style. This was a calculated long term strategy and one that is the wisest even if it stings (pun intended) in the short term.
Yeah. I think, on the specrum of possible responses, "publicly calling out your boss, judge, jury, and prosecutor, and demanding an apology on national tv" is mutually exclusive with "thank you sir, may I have another" in terms of good decisions.Myt1 said:
That is, they cannot both have been a smart course of action. At least one of those public actions was a mistake that hurt the team's future.
I don't think that's true. The circumstances of the two situations (the offseason vs. just touching down after getting ambushed right before the Super Bowl) are sufficiently different that they could both be the right choice.
I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that the strong show of support and solidarity in the face of incorrect rumor and speculation in the first instance may have helped the players and team focus on the Super Bowl.
I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that the strong show of support and solidarity in the face of incorrect rumor and speculation in the first instance may have helped the players and team focus on the Super Bowl.
If it's the same vote then as now, I'd be shocked if billionaires would vote to strip one of his property short of extremely embarrassing and damaging behavior - hello Mr. Sterling. I'm more understanding today of the cult of Al Davis then I've ever been before. To take on a room of billionaires with whom you'll share space with continually over the years takes a different kind of man. Particularly for a guy with the limited resources Davis had. Kraft, apparently, isn't that man and I (and I think most of us) kind of knew that already. The "power and influence" is obviously something he holds dear as well as (I assume) the legacy and health of a league and franchise he'll give over to his son relatively soon. We the fans simply weren't coming between that.lexrageorge said:
I spent way too much time defending the Pats last week on this and Kraft's statement undercuts a lot of it, as its noise - at least the headline - washes over it all. Wish it hadn't been so conciliatory and easy-going, but Kraft did what he had to do to keep what was important to him.
My only defense for the capitulation going forward? "Yeah, my owner is a pussy. The facts are so and so, but my owner's no Al Davis (which will play particularly well here in the East Bay). Kraft's pretty canny about these things and he's taken us to 7 Super Bowls so I really can't complain." By the way, an Al Davis biography would seem to be a great subject - I wonder when a heavy hitter will take it on.
I think there is a wide spectrum of possible responses, both public and private, that could have potentially had an equal or better focusing effect, without backing your judge, jury, and executioner into a corner.Myt1 said:
I loved the fired-up, fuck-you tenor of Kraft's initial presser, and as soon as it came out, I said somebody is going to eating some public crow. I just didn't think it was going to be the pats. He was pushing real human buttons, and making a contest of egos with real human people, and doing it in a forum with no due process guarantees.
Smart people don't play that game until/unless they know the outcome. The BB era pats know better than any team in the history of ever that there are other avenues to success than public bravado and shit-talking.
Like what? And what do you think te detriments were?yep said:
I doubt very much that this process had much at all to do with his press conference and far more to do with Goodell looking like a fool after the Rice debacle.
Kraft's statements the week before the Super Bowl had no affect on the team's or Brady's punishment. After Kraft made those statements, the well timed leaks from the league office stopped instantly. Not that many people care that much what he said that week right now. I'll take it; the Pats won the Game.yep said:
Ben Volin @BenVolin 2m2 minutes ago
Oh really RT @MMehtaNYDN Darrelle Revis talks to me about Tom Brady, Deflategate and the Patriots history of cheating http://nydn.us/1dlq1oS
Oh really RT @MMehtaNYDN Darrelle Revis talks to me about Tom Brady, Deflategate and the Patriots history of cheating http://nydn.us/1dlq1oS
In today's interviews, Kraft seemed conflicted between the choice he made to not appeal and satisfy the other owners and the knowledge that he let down and disappointed his fan base. The Ginger Hammer in his press conference seemed like he got another power injection from Kraft's press conference.
soxhop411 said:
Opening that championship ring from a Fed Ex box in the Jets lockerroom probably won't have the same vibe for Darrelle as it would have otherwise...
I really didn't want to click because Mehta is a troll, but Revis betrays his own lack of seriousness and ,frankly, intelligence on the matter.soxhop411 said:
"If I fail a drug test, then I fail a drug test. If I get a DUI, I get a DUI," Revis said. "If Tom gets caught with a DUI, it's a DUI. …. If they are saying that he did what he's done, then the suspension is the suspension. I'm not the commissioner and don't make the rules. If they want to change (the suspension) based on new information or new evidence, then okay, but it should have nothing to do with Tom being the face (of the NFL)."
Hey Darelle. A DUI or a Drug test evidence in no way shape or form equates to a "general awareness" . Really lacking in honesty and intelligence if he actually believes.
Brady's former teammates have predictably been his apologists during the scandal (with the exception of ESPN analyst Damien Woody), but Revis doesn't play that game. He admitted that Brady "is going to go down as one of the greatest - if not the best - quarterback that's ever played" and "he's definitely a Hall of Famer," but can't say for certain if the man is a cheater.
"I don't know," he said. "I don't care. It doesn't matter. If people want to judge him as a cheater, that's their opinion."( Hilarious. He won't go near this Manish because it's essentially asking him if their's a taint on his ring)
deanx0 said:
How about right now? Step 1: list all of the evidence that A.R. tampered with or had tampered with football air pressure after ref inspection, be it direct, circumstantial, hearsay, rumor, or otherwise..... okay done. What's step 2?
Tom Brady is on record as having a wife. When does the investigation into him punching her unconscious in an elevator begin?
This is why everyone hates whiny patriots fans. Rodgers never came close to saying anything that the pats have been accused of. There is a huge difference in saying that maybe you hope a ball that is overinflated gets by the refs vs deflating it after the refs approve it.deanx0 said:
Stop it with this nonsense. The pats have legitimate gripes, this is not one of them.
PC Drunken Friar said:
It doesn't have to be specifically aimed at Rodgers, though. I know I'll be satisfied if one of the end results of this nonsense investigation and punishment is that the NFL actually puts every single ball used in play under the same level of scrutiny that they treated the Patriots' balls on January 19. Only not the half-assed, check all of one team's balls and only a handful of the other's job they did then, but explicit inspection and full documentation of the air pressure in every single ball pre-game, halftime and post-game for all 240 regular season and all eleven post-season games next year. And lock down the process so team personnel never gets access to any of the balls except on the field to prevent even the possibility of what more probably than not might have happened in a Gillette Stadium bathroom in 90 seconds.
If the integrity of the game is at stake enough to warrant a $5M investigation of one team in one game, it should be at stake for every team in every game.
I am 100% on board with this (but I have my doubts that the NFL would handle that with absolute truthfulness if the outcome wasn't to their satisfaction). My point was that all the stuff about Rodgers doing it and should be called out is just trash.Red(s)HawksFan said:
I used the word "spectrum" because there is a set of facts knowable to Bob Kraft that I don't have. If you want me to craft and defend my own hypothetical press-conference, I'd need to know the starting assumptions, especially regarding factual, knowable, and/or provable guilt or innocence.Myt1 said:
I think the evidence shows that it is more probable than not that Roger Goodell is arbitrary and capricious in administering punishment, that he takes public sentiment and criticism personally, and that his decisions regarding league discipline are heavily influenced by media and public perceptions. I think it is more probable than not that the punishment was harsher than it would have been, had the Patriots:
1. Factually proved their innocence with complete and unimpeachable active cooperation, and/or;
2. Maintained a public face of lawyerly circumspection and respect for the process, the league, and the integrity of the game, throughout the process.
I think it more probable than not, that the Patriots' specific cycle of actions caused them to suffer greater punishment for this episode than they would have under a different behavior pattern (regardless of factual guilt or innocence). I also think that the specific cycle of outraged gauntlet-throwing and demands for justice, followed by a proceduralist approach to cooperation with the fact-finding, and finished by a butt-kissing capitulation-without-admission-of-guilt more probably than not will influence and affect the process and outcomes of future NFL disciplinary episodes, to the detriment of the sport, the league, and most especially the New England Patriots.
Are you saying that there are not, and never will be any consequences for Kraft's public calling-out of Goodell, and that the punishment would have been exactly the same had Kraft been respectful and deferential from the start?
PC Drunken Friar said:
If the NFL doesn't reform the ball process in some way ( they punted on the issue over the meetings) they will without a doubt have Deflategate 2.0 happen to some other incredulous QB. Book it. The teams in the NFL in o so many ways are copycats.
Rather than rescuing Tom with a backroom deal, did Kraft let Roger persuade him to cut Tom loose? Kraft could have lightened up withourt supporting Roger and announcing he was done talking.
Dick Cass and Ozzie Newsome went (along with the NFLPA) with Ray Rice to his meeting with Roger--and in the appeal hearing with Judge Jones their recollection of what was said helped persuade the judge that Roger was not credible.
Does the organization still have Tom's back? Anybody going with him to his appeal?
Dick Cass and Ozzie Newsome went (along with the NFLPA) with Ray Rice to his meeting with Roger--and in the appeal hearing with Judge Jones their recollection of what was said helped persuade the judge that Roger was not credible.
Does the organization still have Tom's back? Anybody going with him to his appeal?
No disagreement with any of this.yep said:
This is moot - there is not enough data for the Patriots to have factually proven their innocence, unfortunately.yep said:
It seems way, way more likely to me that trying to do this would have resulted in negative distraction, costing the team the Super Bowl, than it does that anything they said or did affected the penalties.yep said:
In what way?yep said:
EXACTLY the same.yep said:
What do you think the penalties look like minus Kraft's press conference during Super Bowl week?
The problem with this line of argument is that it presumes that the actions, behavior, and on-field results of the Patriots WERE influenced by Kraft's public bravado, but that Goodell's actions were not.lexrageorge said:
All of the historical evidence shows things working the other way around.
If you want me to write an alternate imaginary history and defend it, then I need to know what set of starting facts I'm working from.Super Nomario said:
My contention is that, if Goodell's disciplinary actions were NOT influenced by media and public relations pressures, and if the Patriot's on-field play WAS influenced by public smack-talking from the front office, then it would appear to be the first time either of those things were true.
Here's a make-pretend statement that we could play a game with:
If that had been the statement, instead of Kraft's clash-of-egos routine, does anyone want to argue that the Patriots would have played worse in the Superbowl?
Were Goodell's actions influenced by media and public relations pressures? Sure. Did Kraft's statements affect the media and public's opinions of the Patriots and their actions? Not even one iota. In 95% of the public's eye, they were guilty from jump.yep said:
We don't have a counterfactual for the Patriots' play in the Super Bowl with or without the distraction, but Brady in particular was coming under fire and seemed uncomfortable in the press conferences. Does he turn in an MVP performance without Belichick and Kraft backing him unequivocally? Maybe, maybe not.
Belichick initially tried something like this, and the result was essentially chumming the waters for the media. Once the Wells investigation was announced and Kraft and Belichick came out firing, things died down. And once Belichick gave his "absolutely followed every rule to the letter" press conference, Kraft had to back him.yep said:
We're not talking about 95% of the public, though. We're talking about Roger Goodell, whom Kraft went out of his way to box into a corner.Super Nomario said:
Overall, if you had to guess, would you say that Tom Brady's on-field performance is affected by press conference statements to a greater or lesser extent than Roger Goodell's disciplinary decisions?
"New England's been doing stuff in the past and getting in trouble," Revis said. "When stuff repeatedly happens, then that's it. I don't know what else to tell you. Stuff repeatedly happened through the years. You got SpyGate, you got this and that and everything else. Obviously in those situations in the past, they had the evidence. So they did what they needed to do."
this is our problem in a nutsack. nobody cares or will ever care that "this, that and everything else" doesnt exist.
this is our problem in a nutsack. nobody cares or will ever care that "this, that and everything else" doesnt exist.
We agree Goodell responds to media and public pressure. I content that the media and public pressure was not affected by Kraft's statements. You're now talking about something different - Goodell's personal pride rather than media or public relations pressures.yep said:
In general, I would agree Brady is affected less. This was an exceptional circumstance, though - Brady's personal integrity had never come under fire like that before. Belichick and Kraft apparently both thought it was important to rally around him, and since they went on to win the Super Bowl I have a hard time second-guessing that decision.yep said:
Is there video of this? I would hope Revis flashed some jazz hands as he said this.naclone said:
We appear to have amnesia about those two weeks, some of it perhaps intentional.yep said:
The team was the object of an unending stream of leaks, certainly purposely and probably calculated to hurt the team. The Pats chose to respond aggressively and no doubt believed that was in the best interests of the team. If you choose to believe you had a better feel for the pulse of the team at that point, that is certainly your prerogative -- and in keeping with a theme of this week, during which wannabe lawyers have instructed real ones that the latter miscalculated the strength of the Patriots' case. I choose to defer to BB's sense of the pulse of the team.
Beyond that, people are ignoring that but for the statements of BB, Kraft and TB, discipline could well have come down pre SB, and that discipline could conceivably had BB sitting the game out. Troy Vincent said just after the AFC Championship game that deflategate would be resolved "in a few days." BB screamed, TB denied -- and the matter was then put in the hands of Wells.
RG is not Branch Rickey, the Patriots are not Jackie Robinson, and 2015 is not 1949. Dock me $1 million, 2 picks and a TB suspension every time. I am not bringing a piñata in to play a SB
Super Nomario said:
I've been talking about the same thing all along.
But let's re-phrase, and make the question clearer: if you had to guess, do you believe that it is more likely that Kraft's press conference influenced Goodell's punishment, or Brady's on-field performance in the Superbowl?
PedroKsBambino said:
The NFL doesn't do ring ceremonies at games. He already went to the White House. Is he going to be upset he's not at Pats mini-camp when they get their rings?