#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
Corsi said:
Corsi said:
jimbobim said:
Bleedred said:
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
I think it's becoming pretty clear that there is a larger struggle between the NFLPA and the NFL here, which many have mentioned. Both of these organizations are what may be termed "repeat players," which is to say they are not just interested in any specific case, but rather are also interested in investing in the rules of the game forward--rules that will affect their next interaction. As such, such actors make very different decisions about how to proceed than those who are only interested in the specific outcome of their single substantive case.
I think there are several "rule based issues" that the sides are angling for, but number one seems to be independent arbitrators and whether or not not having them can be considered legitimate.
What's very, very interesting is that, based on the NFL's behavior, it appears that they believe that Brady is signed on to let the NFLPA pursue this as an investment in rulings and future rules. It's not directly clear that he has, but the NFL's behavior is consistent with a belief that it's a real possibility. Brady has long been pretty strong with the union, even as it hasn't gotten a lot of press, so this is potentially very interesting.
The CBA runs through 2020, and the disciplinary process is an unsettled mess. The NFLPA clearly doesn't buy into to the way that the NFL offices are deciding these punishments and I think it's fair to say that there was some sort of failing in the negotiations* given that there is no agreement between the parties on how these cases should be decided. In the other major sports there can be minor disagreements about suspensions and so forth, but basically everything runs through a predictable series of steps and there are no huge surprises. I suppose the NFL is hoping that the Brady case ultimately firmly establishes Goodell's authority and his idea of the proper disciplinary process but I wonder what happens if this case ends up in court with a ruling favorable to Brady and the NFLPA.
*Failing in the wording of the contract I suppose. It's odd that it isn't all laid out in some indisputable manner.
*Failing in the wording of the contract I suppose. It's odd that it isn't all laid out in some indisputable manner.
Sure, but we haven't yet reached a point where there is a conflict of interests between the one (Brady) and the many (the union). Such a time may or may never come -- it is possible that both parties' goals can be achieved. If such a time comes that the desired long-term actions of the union don't align with Brady's, I'm sure he'll carefully consider that, but I'm having a hard time thinking of how that might come about. I'd think that both would want to go the distance in this case and explore every means possible.There is no Rev said:
Think about the biggest media personalities out there ... Oprah, Matt Lauer, as much as I detest the man, Rush Limbaugh, etc. Now think of the biggest personalities in sports ... Jordan, Lebron, Jeter (just threw up in my mouth) and now to football media ... Howie Long, Collinsworth, Al Michaels, Chris Berman. Now, if I'm comparing the potential power of Brady's brand, without the farce of this situation -- or even with it if you want to entertain the possibility that Brady was involved with this but think about precedent of penalties for similar infractions by others (heated balls, stick 'em on balls, etc.) -- let me present a mathematical equation: Brady's Brand Value without DF-gate minus Brady's Brand Value WITH DF-gate = X. By no means am I an expert, but I don't think it's a stretch at all to place Brady with 4 Super Bowl victories and 3 Super Bowl MVPs, and generally acknowledged as GOAT in the most popular sport in America potentially parlaying his brand into something akin to Jordan. That seems like a huge stretch in large part BECAUSE of DF-gate (and maybe even without, but roll with me for a sec). I don't think it's crazy to think that the closest comparable brand to "Brady" would be "Jordan" and from there I move on to "Oprah" and "Limbaugh" as potential metrics in a lawsuit.
As I understand the law, libel and slander require the plaintiff to prove intent by the would-be defendant. Now, does anyone think that the NFL acted with intent to defame Tom Brady in this whole exercise? I would argue that a case could be made that the NFL's investigation, sequence of leaks, and the Wells Report and its conclusions and the NFL's subsequent punishment were ENTIRELY about defaming Tom Brady. Now, let's go back to the value of the Jordan brand over the course of, I don't know, 50 years? I don't know what number is to the left of the comma is, but there are nine zeroes to the right of it. Now, go back to the equation: Brady's Brand without DF-gate minus Brady's Brand without DF-gate = X. How much is X? How much were Brady's LIFETIME earnings impacted by this ridiculous situation?
As I understand the law, libel and slander require the plaintiff to prove intent by the would-be defendant. Now, does anyone think that the NFL acted with intent to defame Tom Brady in this whole exercise? I would argue that a case could be made that the NFL's investigation, sequence of leaks, and the Wells Report and its conclusions and the NFL's subsequent punishment were ENTIRELY about defaming Tom Brady. Now, let's go back to the value of the Jordan brand over the course of, I don't know, 50 years? I don't know what number is to the left of the comma is, but there are nine zeroes to the right of it. Now, go back to the equation: Brady's Brand without DF-gate minus Brady's Brand without DF-gate = X. How much is X? How much were Brady's LIFETIME earnings impacted by this ridiculous situation?
My Gosh.. I hope this gains some traction (per Curran)
“Problem is, officials don’t care,” said the anonymous player. “Why do you think Tom Brady was so pissed off in the Wells Report after a Jets game? A football was like 16 PSI. How does a football get to 16 PSI? I’ll explain why because NFL officials working the game did that. Why? It means that prior to the game, officials checked the footballs and with no regard or care in the world at all just inflated a football nonchalantly and [an official] most likely said to himself.
‘Should be good now, feels a lot harder.’ Why would they care? They don’t have to throw or play with the thing.
“I know personally because I’ve had it happen to me,” he continued. “I would tell my ball boy, who I paid $200 a week, to scrub the footballs and prepare them to present to NFL officials at 12.5 PSI. Then all of a sudden during the game when one of my footballs was introduced into [the] game by officials, and it did not feel right, I’d tell [the] official to ‘get rid of that ball.’ I would explain to [the] official, ‘What the hell did you do to that ball? It’s not what I introduced to you guys, you over inflated it.'”
http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/ex-nfl-qb-alleges-refs-routinely-overinflate-footballs
“Problem is, officials don’t care,” said the anonymous player. “Why do you think Tom Brady was so pissed off in the Wells Report after a Jets game? A football was like 16 PSI. How does a football get to 16 PSI? I’ll explain why because NFL officials working the game did that. Why? It means that prior to the game, officials checked the footballs and with no regard or care in the world at all just inflated a football nonchalantly and [an official] most likely said to himself.
‘Should be good now, feels a lot harder.’ Why would they care? They don’t have to throw or play with the thing.
“I know personally because I’ve had it happen to me,” he continued. “I would tell my ball boy, who I paid $200 a week, to scrub the footballs and prepare them to present to NFL officials at 12.5 PSI. Then all of a sudden during the game when one of my footballs was introduced into [the] game by officials, and it did not feel right, I’d tell [the] official to ‘get rid of that ball.’ I would explain to [the] official, ‘What the hell did you do to that ball? It’s not what I introduced to you guys, you over inflated it.'”
http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/ex-nfl-qb-alleges-refs-routinely-overinflate-footballs
Yes it sure did, May 31st to be exact.. and it just today showed up on my twitter feed as I missed TC's initial tweet over the weekend. So this will get as much traction as Lincoln Chafee's Presidential campaign will get it appears.GeorgeCostanza said:
The Leberfeld story came out Friday on Breitbart Sports, and is very interesting. It seems to confirm that TB could have been involved only to insure 12.5;
that would explain his somewhat odd answer to are you a cheater? "I don't think so"--meaning:I may use unapproved means, but only to achieve a legal result.
Certainly TB shouldn't have to play with 16 psi balls, and the story seems to confirm that some deflation may be necessary to correct official carelessness.
that would explain his somewhat odd answer to are you a cheater? "I don't think so"--meaning:I may use unapproved means, but only to achieve a legal result.
Certainly TB shouldn't have to play with 16 psi balls, and the story seems to confirm that some deflation may be necessary to correct official carelessness.
lambeau said:
Not trying to be snarky, but the Wells Report itself seems to confirm that TB was involved only to insure 12.5.
There is simply no way an unbiased individual could read the evidence in the Wells Report and conclude that something actually happened. Wells and the NFL were like prosecutors. They had already determined that a "crime" was committed and the entire investigation was an effort to explain who the perpetrators were.
I can't imagine that Goodell will change Brady's suspension, because TB's position will be that he did not do anything, which precludes any showing of remorse and may even provoke a statement from Goodell about Brady being obstinate. It's truly the Theater of the Absurd.
I mean, he said he literally gave the McNally the rule book to show the officials where he wanted the balls inflated to. The refs did not care about the inflation of the balls. I honestly believe that this whole thing was a bunch of unfortunate circumstances that happened at the wrong time (the deflator text, the bathroom break, the two gauges) and that the science explains it and TB is 100% innocent.lambeau said:
It's actually even worse than that. Prosecutors have a duty to turn over exculpatory information, including evidence of bias, and have other ethical requirements. Wells acted as an advocate, and not one bound by those sorts of strictures.Average Reds said:
Well if TB authorized that, he deserves every goddamn thing he got in a broad sense (and you all know how I feel about RG, the apparent railroading, and so forth).lambeau said:
I don't care what the rules say. You cannot unilaterally fuck with the footballs after they are aporoved by the refs -- in a ahithouse no less -- and expect that anything good will come of it. None of us would EVER advise our own kids to do this, and that should be telling.
No self help, period. You have a beef with the balls, tell BB and let him deal with it.
Well, unless it is a common practice among quarterbacks. If teams regularly unilaterally fuck with the footballs, it seems like less of a big deal. Then again, even if they don't it doesn't warrant this kind of punishment.
I tend to doubt this is common. But even if it is, you're in a position of bitching to the judge -- who is against you -- that the policeman allowed 29 other speeding drivers to proceed, ticketing only you. Except it's worse because the ordinary judge does not have the same discretion defining the penalty that RG enjoys.
From the standpoint of common sense, you can't have it both ways. Specifically, you can't say -- as lots of people have been saying here for 8 years, justifiably IMO -- that the Pats are wearing a big target, and then act like "any other team". Or you can, but then you just better be prepared for the disproportionate punishment.
It's not smart. This episode demonstrated that Kraft has close to zero support on this issue from the other owners. The sheriff -- who also is the judge, and who employs policemen who hate you -- is going to be there for the foreseeable future. There are two sets of rules; act accordingly.
From the standpoint of common sense, you can't have it both ways. Specifically, you can't say -- as lots of people have been saying here for 8 years, justifiably IMO -- that the Pats are wearing a big target, and then act like "any other team". Or you can, but then you just better be prepared for the disproportionate punishment.
It's not smart. This episode demonstrated that Kraft has close to zero support on this issue from the other owners. The sheriff -- who also is the judge, and who employs policemen who hate you -- is going to be there for the foreseeable future. There are two sets of rules; act accordingly.
dcmissle said:
dcmissle said:
Unless I just flat out missed it, nothing in the article indicated that Brady told anyone to deflate the balls after the ref had set them. The only "news" is that an anonymous former NFL quarterback indicates that all QBs are frustrated by the inattention of the refs relative to the inflation levels of the ball.
There is an assumption running through the article that after-the-fact manipulation happened, but that's because the article takes it as a given and tries to minimize the "infraction," not because they have anything new.
Edit: Quoted wrong post.
But it is entirely possible Brady and the lot could honestly claim to have no knowledge of wrongdoing while Needledee and Needledum were deflating post-inspection because the refs were overinflating upon inspection.dcmissle said:
All of this is moot given the lack of evidence of air having been, you know, actually released from the balls in the first place.
There are two sets of rules, yes, and the Patriots would be wise to adhere to them.dcmissle said:
But what's frustrating,mand totally unjust, is that even when the Patriots act WITHIN the rules, they still get nailed.
If Brady didn't do anything wrong, the mere act of someone being suspicious of the Pats doing something wrong, combined with a lack of understanding of science, can STILL lead to you getting harshly punished. How in the world are the Patriots supposed to know what to so when the rules that apply to them are: even if you act within league rules we can still nail you just....because.?????
I'm totally agnostic on whether TB ordered deflation or not. I do not know. I was responding to the hypothetical that he knew but that the footballs were not beneath 12.5.
What to do now? You adhere to the letter of every rule and document that as best you can. You make sure the organization employs no knuckleheads, even at the lowest level. Then you hope for the best.
And you do these things even if the other 31 teams are not doing them.
Until RG is replaced, the NEPs have to paint by the numbers. No cute shit.
What to do now? You adhere to the letter of every rule and document that as best you can. You make sure the organization employs no knuckleheads, even at the lowest level. Then you hope for the best.
And you do these things even if the other 31 teams are not doing them.
Until RG is replaced, the NEPs have to paint by the numbers. No cute shit.
Bill Leavy, the referee who supposedly inflated one of the Patriots footballs to 16 PSI and also screwed up Super Bowl XL, is being reassigned to a supervisor role within the NFL.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13018435/nfl-referee-bill-leavy-moving-supervisor-role-officiating-department
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13018435/nfl-referee-bill-leavy-moving-supervisor-role-officiating-department
Unfortunately, I would bet that Kraft and BB would tell you that this is what they've been doing since 2007. And yet, here we are again. You can only do so much if there is an institutionalized agenda against you where you have no recourse to object or appeal. And regardless of the innocence or guilt of Brady, homerism or not, it's hard to argue that there isn't some sort of anti-Patriots fervor in NFL offices when you look at the penalties for the "gates" relative to every other team and their respective infractions the last 9 years.dcmissle said:
This is where I am as well. I think Kraft accepted the spygate penalty and ordered the staff to not flirt with that line again.RGREELEY33 said:
And also where part of Krafts outrage originates from: BB and TB said they didn't do it. Therefore it wasn't organizational. It was a part time employee who did whatever was or wasn't done.
Joe Montana weighs in (via WEEI.com)
"Hall of Fame quarterback Joe Montana doesn’t think Deflategate is that big a deal.
Asked about the allegations that Tom Brady and the Patriots deliberately under inflated footballs prior to their AFC title win over the Colts, Montana said the whole thing strikes him as “funny.”
He said: “I wish I’d known (it could make a difference) because I couldn’t throw a wet ball to save my life. Heck, I would’ve thought about (deflating the ball), sure.”
Montana, who called Brady a great quarterback who has had a great career, said this “doesn’t take anything away from Tom’s game,” and added that everybody is trying to gain a competitive edge."
"Hall of Fame quarterback Joe Montana doesn’t think Deflategate is that big a deal.
Asked about the allegations that Tom Brady and the Patriots deliberately under inflated footballs prior to their AFC title win over the Colts, Montana said the whole thing strikes him as “funny.”
He said: “I wish I’d known (it could make a difference) because I couldn’t throw a wet ball to save my life. Heck, I would’ve thought about (deflating the ball), sure.”
Montana, who called Brady a great quarterback who has had a great career, said this “doesn’t take anything away from Tom’s game,” and added that everybody is trying to gain a competitive edge."
Interesting story and context from Volin today in the Globe about the much talked about Chargers $20,000 infraction for using "sticky towels". While this explains the disparity in penalties in this case, I would love to hear what the "league source" says about the Carolina Panthers heating of balls. I don't think that one would be as easy to explain.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/06/06/yahoo-deal-with-nfl-sign-things-come/y5SFp0TTL36DWdspVvM5nK/story.html
"After the game the NFL determined that the Gorilla Gold towels weren’t illegal, but fined the Chargers a nominal $20,000 sum for not cooperating with the referee.
When the Chargers explained what had happened, the fine was overturned.
So, why didn’t the NFL explain all of this? The league didn’t want to mention Gorilla Gold products because the company didn’t have a licensing deal with the league.
“This was like, ‘You didn’t do anything technically illegal, but we don’t want you or any team to use the towel because you’re going to make Gorilla Gold millions of dollars and they didn’t pay a licensing fee, so you can’t use it,’ ” the source explained."
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/06/06/yahoo-deal-with-nfl-sign-things-come/y5SFp0TTL36DWdspVvM5nK/story.html
"After the game the NFL determined that the Gorilla Gold towels weren’t illegal, but fined the Chargers a nominal $20,000 sum for not cooperating with the referee.
When the Chargers explained what had happened, the fine was overturned.
So, why didn’t the NFL explain all of this? The league didn’t want to mention Gorilla Gold products because the company didn’t have a licensing deal with the league.
“This was like, ‘You didn’t do anything technically illegal, but we don’t want you or any team to use the towel because you’re going to make Gorilla Gold millions of dollars and they didn’t pay a licensing fee, so you can’t use it,’ ” the source explained."
In the same story Joe also admitted that the 49ers Offensive Line sprayed silicon on their jerseys until they were caught. He's also a big fan of the rapist.mwonow said:
LINK: http://www.ninersnation.com/2015/6/6/8740637/joe-montana-talks-deflategate-ben-roethlisberger-as-hall-of-famer
WhooshEvilEmpire said:
Edit: If I'm not mistaken, he's drawing s humorous comparison to the team not being caught doing somethig wrong and not hiding evidence.
Jeepers, Kraft went "all shield" today..
"“We’re part of system and we’ll follow the rules,” Kraft told reporters. “It’s our hope that opening game here, we’ll have the privilege of having everyone who deserves to be on the field staring that game. I know that’s what our fans want and that’s what we want.”
http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2015/06/09/robert-kraft-on-roger-goodell-hearing-tom-bradys-appeal-were-part-of-a-system-and-well-follow-the-rules/
"“We’re part of system and we’ll follow the rules,” Kraft told reporters. “It’s our hope that opening game here, we’ll have the privilege of having everyone who deserves to be on the field staring that game. I know that’s what our fans want and that’s what we want.”
http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2015/06/09/robert-kraft-on-roger-goodell-hearing-tom-bradys-appeal-were-part-of-a-system-and-well-follow-the-rules/
I'm not getting the jeepers. That doesn't look new or different to me. Being part of the club is what Kraft cited before. If anything, his comments about Tom being someone who deserves to be on the field on opening day and the Pats wanting that result are stronger than what he expressed at the press conference when he announced that he was not going to pursue an appeal. My biggest beef with that conference is that he said nothing supportive about Tom. The above statement is a step in that direction.
Not to belabor the point, but the differentiation as to why the Chargers didn't really break a rule sounds like total horseshit to me.
Here's the product in question: http://m.golfsmith.com/product/30078344/gorilla-gold-gorilla-gold-/-golf
It's a towel that contains a substance that allows for better grip on the ball by supplying a "waxy coating". But because it doesn't "leave a sticky mess" (language paraphrased from the product's package), it was ok?
Tell me with a straight face that if the Patriots had been caught using that shit on the sidelines, it would have been waved away by the public and, hence, the league.
And, of course, the ball boy mistaking a referee's whistle to let the red see the towel and running away is 100% believable, no questions asked!
Here's the product in question: http://m.golfsmith.com/product/30078344/gorilla-gold-gorilla-gold-/-golf
It's a towel that contains a substance that allows for better grip on the ball by supplying a "waxy coating". But because it doesn't "leave a sticky mess" (language paraphrased from the product's package), it was ok?
Tell me with a straight face that if the Patriots had been caught using that shit on the sidelines, it would have been waved away by the public and, hence, the league.
And, of course, the ball boy mistaking a referee's whistle to let the red see the towel and running away is 100% believable, no questions asked!
And he calls it a privilege. It's mealy mouthed as possible and isn't at all supportive of Brady.
I think he's moved on to the phase where he believes that any further strife serves to harm the NFL (in contrast to the NFLPA) and thus potentially harms his investment in the Patriots. This is entirely independent of whether he believes Brady is innocent or not. He may even, personally, feel that Brady should fight tooth and nail to clear his name. But rationally, the fight has a potential downside for him financially.
I've lost respect for Kraft.
if he couldn't offer some support for Brady, he should have said "We respect the process" and then STFU. The qualifier of those "deserving" to play begs the question, is Tom deserving? He did not have to say that.
if he couldn't offer some support for Brady, he should have said "We respect the process" and then STFU. The qualifier of those "deserving" to play begs the question, is Tom deserving? He did not have to say that.
I didn't take it that way at all. Who else could he have been referring to? I think it may have been a veiled, passive aggressive comment directed towards Goodell, if anything. But more likely just a carefully worded PR answer. There's simply nothing to be gained for anyone by him making any demonstrative public comments on this. Both the team, and Brady, are best served by keeping their powder dry now until the process plays itself out.bankshot1 said:
Jesus Christ people need to cut this bullshit out. (It's not just you, I'm on my phone or I'd quote a dozen other people, so sorry to single you out.) but nobody gives a shit about your or anyone else's respect level for Kraft or your future attendance or your future TV viewing habits.bankshot1 said:
Who the fuck do you think he was talking about? Why do you think he chose to use those words? If you honestly think Kraft isn't supporting Brady then you need to wake the fuck up.
It was fun to pound the table and cry for Kraft to go full on Al Davis, rogue owner. It was a worthwhile thought experiment. It was never going to happen. Ever.
I'm sorry you and others have gotten butt hurt by this fact. But people need to grow up. Robert Kraft is easily one of the best few owners to have for your team in the NFL if not all of professional sports. That he doesn't choose to commit professional seppuku to please the unwashed masses of his fanbase does not detract from this.
Would you prefer Jerry Jones? Schneider? Do you think Mara or Rooney would have come out guns blazing? Maybe we should go full on GB and we can all buy shares and then beat off looking at the certificate hanging in our mancave?
This whole thing sucks. And it stinks. And it sucks and it stinks. But he got handed a shit sandwich and a lot people expected him to make filet mignon out of it. People are actively looking for more shit to criticize him on and complain about, when there's already plenty there to be upset about that is no fault of his own. It's fucking tiring and nauseating to watch.
Here's the indisputable facts: Robert Kraft knows a metric fuckton more than any person here about what he is and was able to do about this situation. And about being an NFL owner. And about the back channels of the billionaires club he is in. And the league he owns a team in.
He has lawyers and PR guys and advisors and then more lawyers and he has loyalists/friends amongst the other owners that I assure you he has spoken to and he has analysts and BB and then more lawyers and PR guys and analysts and everything else. He's not waking up and pulling shit out of his ass.
We wouldn't even have a team if not for Robert Kraft. So everyone do your arm chair quarterbacking elsewhere so this forum can get back to some respectability, huh? Please.
Sorry, I'm done now. Again, not directed entirely at you.
Good rant. People claiming that Kraft did not support Tom enough need to step back indeed and realize that Bob Kraft isn't an idiot. As PP wrote, he does understand the lay of the land, and undoubtedly has more facts at his disposal than any of us. He also has had a hand in the Pats' success and the deference he requested at his prior press conference is not unwarranted, albeit not an unlimited basis. In short, he's not some bumbling fool and assuming that is wrong headed.
Yesterday he reiterated his prior stance and said, for the first time, that Brady deserves to be on the field and that Kraft hopes to see that. What did people want or expect regarding Brady? "I LOVE Tom and this whole thing just makes me puke!!"
If that's what you were looking for, or anything much more than what Kraft said, I think you're dreaming.
Yesterday he reiterated his prior stance and said, for the first time, that Brady deserves to be on the field and that Kraft hopes to see that. What did people want or expect regarding Brady? "I LOVE Tom and this whole thing just makes me puke!!"
If that's what you were looking for, or anything much more than what Kraft said, I think you're dreaming.