#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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DennyDoyle'sBoil

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E5 Yaz said:
 
Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw  42m42 minutes ago
Don't expect much impact from the dueling letters by NFL and NFLPA lawyers over last two days. Judges usually aren't fans of this practice.
 
 
I hear this all the time, and I think it's bullshit.  Judges say they are not fans of parties exceeding pages limits or filing supplemental briefs or trying to get the last word in.
 
I think they genuinely mean it.  And they do get annoyed.  But it doesn't mean they don't read them and don't listen.  I can say with first hand experience that they do.  And I can also say with much confidence that when you're a law clerk trying to figure out what the law is and how to write an order, you'll take help from wherever you can get it.  If a party writes a two-page letter that gives you authority you need or makes a point you didn't consider and have to address to help make your boss's decision more appeal proof, you'll gladly take any port in a storm.  You'll also snicker under your breath a bit if you happen to be in the courtroom when your boss chastises the lawyers for doing something that you found helpful, and that you know he or she did too.
 

BroodsSexton

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
 
 

 
I hear this all the time, and I think it's bullshit.  Judges say they are not fans of parties exceeding pages limits or filing supplemental briefs or trying to get the last word in.
 
I think they genuinely mean it.  And they do get annoyed.  But it doesn't mean they don't read them and don't listen.  I can say with first hand experience that they do.  And I can also say with much confidence that when you're a law clerk trying to figure out what the law is and how to write an order, you'll take help from wherever you can get it.  If a party writes a two-page letter that gives you authority you need or makes a point you didn't consider and have to address to help make your boss's decision more appeal proof, you'll gladly take any port in a storm.  You'll also snicker under your breath a bit if you happen to be in the courtroom when your boss chastises the lawyers for doing something that you found helpful, and that you know he or she did too.

 
 
 
There's a difference between high-quality lawyering, which brings clarity to the issues (whether favorably or unfavorably to the particular party) and yappy letters copied to the Judge about your adversary's outrageous discovery practices.  Judges generally welcome the former; they do not like the latter.  As a former clerk, the variability in the quality of the lawyering (even in federal court) was one of the more surprising aspects of the job.  Berman may say "enough," if he thinks they're going on too much in the submissions, but he's not going to be upset with either party for making their case in a thoughtful, professional manner. 
 

dcmissle

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At this point, I ask my secretary or law clerk to send an e-mail to Nash and Kessler. No mas; if I want to hear from you further, I will ask. Nobody gets embarrassed; no more last words.
 

joe dokes

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McCann's tweet makes no sense in the context of the real world
 
"Judges are not fans of the practice" -- so what. If they don't strike the letters they will consider them. They are unlikely to be ignored if they are useful.
 
What judges really hate is when replies or supplemental briefs or letters like this don't say anything new or don't respond to something that came up in an oral argument (as with 28(j) letters in federal court).  These two letters are concise and limited in scope.
 
Human though they may be, Fed judges aren't really in the habit of making decisions based on who pissed them off less.
 

BroodsSexton

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dcmissle said:
At this point, I ask my secretary or law clerk to send an e-mail to Nash and Kessler. No mas; if I want to hear from you further, I will ask. Nobody gets embarrassed; no more last words.
 
No need--these guys are professionals.  They know when to say when.
 

dcmissle

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McCann simply may be referring to what I have believed for a week now -- the cake is baked. The court is standing on the shoulders of the parties knowledge wise, and between that and his law clerks, I expect by now that the judge is ahead of the parties.
 

joe dokes

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McCann simply may be referring to what I have believed for a week now -- the cake is baked. The court is standing on the shoulders of the parties knowledge wise, and between that and his law clerks, I expect by now that the judge is ahead of the parties.
 
 
Given the extremely limited universe of applicable law and precedent that may be true and his tweet may have just been poorly worded.  But while I defer to McCann (and nearly anyone else) when it comes to substantive labor law, IMO his comments on the procedural aspects have been far less impressive. YMMV.
 

ifmanis5

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dcmissle said:
At this point, I ask my secretary or law clerk to send an e-mail to Nash and Kessler. No mas; if I want to hear from you further, I will ask. Nobody gets embarrassed; no more last words.
Kessler to judge: They started it.
 

dcmissle

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So now Forbes is joining Florio --

Maury Brown -- "The Uncomfortable Unnerving Relationship Between ESPN and The NFL"

Can somebody link to it? Right now, I cannot.

Thrust -- ESPN = Pravda; Munson called out.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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bankshot1 said:
At this point, to this Judge, is the NFLPA/NFL dueling letters drama over?
 
Or does the NFL have the right to respond to Kessler?
 
There is always a difficult tension a lawyer faces when deciding whether to try to file another brief, or supplemental authority, or a reply to a reply, or any document that is within the judge's discretion to consider or not.  You have to ask, first, "do I have some sort of hook to justify my doing this," and, second, "do I have enough to say that it's worth the possibility that I will annoy the judge."
 
I think the NFL's original filing was within the bounds.  Kessler handed up a document at the hearing citing 19 cases.  That was the NFL's "hook" to file a response, and I think it's reasonable -- "they provided you with a bunch of authority on a piece of paper that they didn't give us in advance of the hearing, so we just want to let you know that the authority is not as broad as they suggest."  That's reasonable.  Also, they got pretty restrictive page limits on the merits, so I don't think this is out of bounds.  Do I think the NFL needed to do this? I think, actually, it was a bit of a panic move.  (But, there is one thing to keep in mind -- if you lose in the trial court, you cannot argue on appeal things you didn't argue in the trial court.  Perhaps they thought that some of their arguments were not sufficiently well preserved to argue on appeal if they lose -- especially this bit about the NFLPA essentially agreeing to a non-neutral.  I think they may have thought they needed to do something like this to protect their record.)
 
Then we get to Kessler's response.  Was that in bounds?  Probably.  It's closer.  It does look like a bit of a petulant attempt to get the last word -- and the NFL's view that they were justified by Kessler handing up 19 authorities without notice at the hearing maybe helps support that notion.  This is probably why Kessler starts his letter off trying to suggest that the NFL's filing was "belated" and that it simply retreads over matters already briefed.  This is Kessler's attempt to justify his sur-reply.  That said, his response is short enough, and targeted enough to the NFL's letter, to probably be ok.  I think it's professional enough -- as others have noted -- that it's ok.  But he was stretching it just a bit here.  I'm sure he debated a lot before filing it and decided the benefit was greater than the risk of pissing off the judge.  And I do agree he seems to think he has the judge at least leaning his way, so probably thought his risk was lower.
 
As for whether the NFL has an opening to respond now?  I don't think so.  They probably need to lick their wounds and retreat.  If it were me, I wouldn't file another document unless I thought I had the other side in a clear lie or a clear misrepresentation of the law or a fact.  In that case, you can get away with saying words to the effect tat, "they have flatly misled the court and though we are at risk of annoying the court with yet another filing, they have simply mischaracterized the record."
 

ifmanis5

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Bleedred said:
Fine as it goes, but mostly observational. 
Which is the state of the media today.
 
Report the report or report on what you see and move on. Very little investigation because, see above, afraid of losing access or damaging business alliances.
 

twothousandone

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That guy's a "contributor" not a staff writer at Forbes. I assume it makes them money via eyeballs and ad impressions. He gains credibility by appearing on Forbes.com, but if this article was on bizofbaseball.com (the site Maury Brown runs), probably no one would have seen it. (He notes as much as his site is pretty dormant -- he makes money publishing on Forbes.com.)
 

Harry Hooper

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Bleedred said:
Fine as it goes, but mostly observational. 
 
 
He completely ignored the Commish's crowing at his "State of the Game" press conference during SB Week, "We have the best partners in media."
 

dcmissle

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Some of you guys are in the middle of a desert, complaining that the fellow who brought a cup of water did not offer Cristal instead.

That Forbes provided a platform for these views is a good thing.
 

mwonow

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dcmissle said:
Some of you guys are in the middle of a desert, complaining that the fellow who brought a cup of water did not offer Cristal instead.

That Forbes provided a platform for these views is a good thing.
 
Absolutely. My guess is that a fair number of owners read Forbes, or are at least generally aware of what is said there. They probably would prefer that the emporer (/sheriff) not be stripped too far in front of their business associates...
 

Ed Hillel

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Forgive me, but I need to just mention how Goodell has handled an investigation to whether a QB ordered to have .2 PSI deflated from footballs versus how Manfred and MLB handled the scouting director of arguably their best modern franchise hacking into another team's scouting database. That story died in 3 days. It also goes further to ESPN's role as Pravda in this bullshit.
 

dcdrew10

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Ed Hillel said:
Forgive me, but I need to just mention how Goodell has handled an investigation to whether a QB ordered to have .2 PSI deflated from footballs versus how Manfred and MLB handled the scouting director of arguably their best modern franchise hacking into another team's scouting database. That story died in 3 days. It also goes further to ESPN's role as Pravda in this bullshit.
This. A thousand times this. I'd love to see someone in the media bring this up. One would hope this occurred to at least one of the owners.
 

joe dokes

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Ed Hillel said:
Forgive me, but I need to just mention how Goodell has handled an investigation to whether a QB ordered to have .2 PSI deflated from footballs versus how Manfred and MLB handled the scouting director of arguably their best modern franchise hacking into another team's scouting database. That story died in 3 days. It also goes further to ESPN's role as Pravda in this bullshit.
 
Or, how David Stern handled a referee gettting busted for throwing games for gamblers.  It had something of a life of its own because of the criminal proceedings against Donaghy, but Stern gave the fire not a single extra ounce of oxygen.
 

JohnnyTheBone

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joe dokes said:
 
Or, how David Stern handled a referee gettting busted for throwing games for gamblers.  It had something of a life of its own because of the criminal proceedings against Donaghy, but Stern gave the fire not a single extra ounce of oxygen.
 
Adam Silver extracted a $2 billion asset from Donald Sterling, and the franchise changed hands, in less than half the time that this farce has gone on.
 

simplyeric

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Seems like that's because the MLB and the NBA issues were real, and actually a potential problem, so they had to be snuffed out.
This Deflategate thing is neither real, nor a problem even if it was real...but it distracts from other real issues.

Deflategate isn't the fire...it's the suppressor for other flare ups.

(I'm mostly rephrasing something that others have suggested)

Edit to 'suggested', since it is conjecture
 

Zososoxfan

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dcdrew10 said:
This. A thousand times this. I'd love to see someone in the media bring this up. One would hope this occurred to at least one of the owners.
I honestly believe the NFL is going for exposure 365 days a year and the plan was to keep the league in the news through this issue. Now, it has certainly spiraled out of the NFL's control and there is [hopefully] a serious chance that this will bite RG in the ass by at a minimum reducing his punishment, but I think this was conscious.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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Ed Hillel said:
Forgive me, but I need to just mention how Goodell has handled an investigation to whether a QB ordered to have .2 PSI deflated from footballs versus how Manfred and MLB handled the scouting director of arguably their best modern franchise hacking into another team's scouting database. That story died in 3 days. It also goes further to ESPN's role as Pravda in this bullshit.
To further prove your point, I completely forgot about the hacking story. Wow.
 

jtn46

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You could also add Biogenesis, where a whole investigation happened without a peep, there was 1 vague leak implying suspensions were coming, they did, and the issue was over quickly, aside from the Arod circus for a few weeks (and as it turns out Arod was 100% guilty, said as much to the DEA, appealed to an actual independent arbitrator who reduced the suspension). And this was with Bud Selig still commissioner.
 

crystalline

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Zososoxfan said:
I honestly believe the NFL is going for exposure 365 days a year and the plan was to keep the league in the news through this issue. Now, it has certainly spiraled out of the NFL's control and there is [hopefully] a serious chance that this will bite RG in the ass by at a minimum reducing his punishment, but I think this was conscious.
Possibly, but Rice, Incognito, and Peterson also got out of control. You might argue that the Mueller and Wells I investigations were required to respond to the news coverage, but I'd probably say that the NBA or MLB would have handled Incognito and Rice in a much much quieter way.


Edit:get names right.
 

Reverend

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simplyeric said:
Seems like that's because the MLB and the NBA issues were real, and actually a potential problem, so they had to be snuffed out.
This Deflategate thing is neither real, nor a problem even if it was real...but it distracts from other real issues.

Deflategate isn't the fire...it's the suppressor for other flare ups.

(I'm mostly rephrasing something that others have suggested)

Edit to 'suggested', since it is conjecture
 
:clint:
 

pappymojo

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jtn46 said:
You could also add Biogenesis, where a whole investigation happened without a peep, there was 1 vague leak implying suspensions were coming, they did, and the issue was over quickly, aside from the Arod circus for a few weeks (and as it turns out Arod was 100% guilty, said as much to the DEA, appealed to an actual independent arbitrator who reduced the suspension). And this was with Bud Selig still commissioner.
Which is why Brady should have admitted his guilt. The whole thing would have gone away if he had been as forthcoming as Arod. [/sarcasm]
 

Eddie Jurak

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I'd like Berman to allow more back and forth, but require that each subsequent response must be shorter than the previous one until they reach the 140 character limit.
 

simplyeric

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Eddie Jurak said:
I'd like Berman to allow more back and forth, but require that each subsequent response must be shorter than the previous one until they reach the 140 character limit.
 
they should whittle it down to haiku
 
and then ultimately down to single word summary.
 
Kessler could say "railroad"
 
Goodell would probably say:
 
 

Ed Hillel

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This is awesome, and seems highly unusual, to say the least:
At a hearing Wednesday on a contempt motion filed by the NFL Players Association in the Adrian Peterson case, Doty said everyone was “curious” as to how Judge Richard Berman would rule in the case of Tom Brady and Deflategate. In the process, he took the opportunity to get in a dig at Goodell.

“I’m not sure the commissioner understands there is a CBA,” Doty said.
http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2015/08/26/judge-not-sure-roger-goodell-understands-there-is-a-cba/
 

NavaHo

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I have deflated
the air
that was in
your football
 
Which I used
to defeat
the Ravens
and the Colts
 
Forgive me
their tears were delicious
So salty
and sweet