djbayko said:
My fault, I think I recall Schefter saying on ESPN (?) that he had league confirmation. He probably did get it from the Pats first
#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
My fault, I think I recall Schefter saying on ESPN (?) that he had league confirmation. He probably did get it from the Pats first
Today's addendum is almost impossible to find on the Context Homepage--if you click on the 6th (Right side)menu item "Conduct of League Personnel" it takes you to the new hyperlink "League Failure to Correct Misinformation".
What's been done to the Patriots and Brady can (and has, and will) be done to any of the other teams and any player in the NFLPA. Regardless of the settlement - how can this type of management be allowed to prevail? Maybe the other teams think they're immune (ask the Saints?), but I can't imagine the players think that way.
No settlement will chastise the League Office for its unfair actions and prejudice. I hope there is further action taken after this thing has been settled...even if only to protect the integrity of the game.
No settlement will chastise the League Office for its unfair actions and prejudice. I hope there is further action taken after this thing has been settled...even if only to protect the integrity of the game.
pappymojo said:
That's what I was going to say too, and then I thought, well there's a difference between Wells not being given permission by Goodell to investigate that (i.e., Goodell hired Wells and limited the scope of his inquiry to not include that), and Goodell saying, sure, Ted, you can investigate that if you want, and Wells declining.
By all reports, it was the first scenario that was real.
It's not a huge step forward. They've already done this once before when trying to debunk the Wells report. All people did was focus on "deflator" meaning "lose weight."crystalline said:
If this is all the Pats have for a smoking gun, then that's the end of the chapter.
It says "Annotations in bold, text in blue link to relevant documents". If you scroll down the text that loads on the main page, its the second blue hyperlink and within a bold paragraph. Not super easy, but if you just scroll through looking for the bold text, that's all stuff put in since the original upload.lambeau said:
Super Nomario said:
One of the commenters on PFT compared Pash to Warden Norton from Shawshank Redemption when Andy was requesting help tracking down the real killer.
The guy comes off as such a smug, lying fuck.
pappymojo said:
I don't think the emails cited in Florio work, but I found this from the Wells Report Context if we want to go the liar route. It's in the emails that were posted in May. The email is from Goldberg to Pash.
https://wellsreportcontext.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/pash_correspondence1.pdf
God this thing is so fucking infuriating. Complete hatchet job right from the beginning.
Harry Hooper said:
Kelly Naqi showing up at McNally's home when he was still just an anonymous equipment manager's part-time assistant might be the single most disgusting thing the NFL and ESPN did during this whole ordeal.
So....
“I think Ted Wells did address (the league’s demeanor and actions) in his report,” Goodell told me when I asked why the report didn’t look inward. “I asked him specifically when I engaged him to evaluate the league’s conduct to determine what we could have done differently and I think he made his views very clear in the report, so I would disagree on that point. Whenever we have an incident, we look at it and say, ‘What could we have done differently, how can we improve?’ And we’ll continue to do that.”
But...
"We learned last night from Ted that the issue of how League personnel handled the pursuit of the low psi issues, including whether there were inappropriate prejudgments and unfounded presumptions of wrongdoing, selective leaks of information and misinformation, failure to correct obviously misreported information, and the like, are not part of what the Paul Weiss firm has been asked to investigate. I understand that the League has opted to investigate those matters internally. Because of the significance of these issues, their obvious interrelationship to the matters being pursued by the Paul Weiss firm,and the benefits of having them investigated by individuals who are not employees of the League (particularly since they involve the conduct of high level League employees), the Patriots ask that the League add these issues to the matters that are being independently investigated."
Somebody is lying...
“I think Ted Wells did address (the league’s demeanor and actions) in his report,” Goodell told me when I asked why the report didn’t look inward. “I asked him specifically when I engaged him to evaluate the league’s conduct to determine what we could have done differently and I think he made his views very clear in the report, so I would disagree on that point. Whenever we have an incident, we look at it and say, ‘What could we have done differently, how can we improve?’ And we’ll continue to do that.”
But...
"We learned last night from Ted that the issue of how League personnel handled the pursuit of the low psi issues, including whether there were inappropriate prejudgments and unfounded presumptions of wrongdoing, selective leaks of information and misinformation, failure to correct obviously misreported information, and the like, are not part of what the Paul Weiss firm has been asked to investigate. I understand that the League has opted to investigate those matters internally. Because of the significance of these issues, their obvious interrelationship to the matters being pursued by the Paul Weiss firm,and the benefits of having them investigated by individuals who are not employees of the League (particularly since they involve the conduct of high level League employees), the Patriots ask that the League add these issues to the matters that are being independently investigated."
Somebody is lying...
It's kind of sad reading the correspondence to Pash in which they are pleading for good old Ted Wells to investigate the Kensil leak, instead of an in-house investigation; like, what, complaining to the FBI about Whitey Bulger?
Gullible Kraft really didn't know the fix was in and Wells. Pash, Kensil, Vincent were all working together. Time for Jonathan to step up?
Gullible Kraft really didn't know the fix was in and Wells. Pash, Kensil, Vincent were all working together. Time for Jonathan to step up?
Aren't they talking about two different things? it reads to me like Goodell is referring to the actual processes for ball control to have prevented the whole ordeal, (intentionally obtuse to what the Pats concerns are) while the Pats are obviously referring to the leaks.
Goodell's not lying, he's just being a slimy asshole.
Goodell's not lying, he's just being a slimy asshole.
I think this is exactly right. The more this goes on the more I hate Goodell and Kensil.sonofgodcf said:
Edit: we all understand the concept of sports hate - we don't like LeBron, Manning, Jeter, etc. But we would never wish ill on these people. I wish ill on Goodell and Kensil. If they were to die in a plane crash tomorrow I would fist pump, call my dad out of pure glee, and post an inappropriate facebook status. If that makes me a bad human then so be it. Berry, put this in the P&G thread. Whatever. May Goodell and Kensil die horrible, painful deaths, for they are awful humans.
Yes, I see that. I had forgotten there were some emails released previously.Kenny F said:
On the other hand, this is throwing Jeff Pash under the bus. And given his central role in the NFLPA's suit - and his central role in the legal briefs - this seems of stronger import than anything we've seen so far. This is the Patriots throwing some new facts Brady's way for the lawsuit. Not that it will make it to the legal briefs, but it may color the judge's view.
I'd say the other owners would consider this release fairly aggressive. We'll see if this continues.
... and do what?lambeau said:
The emails on the context site suggest that the Patriots had a lot of problems with how the NFL handled this throughout the entire process, but they really didn't have any options at any point, because this is the kind of shit you sign up for when you own a team. They had to just shut up, cooperate, and hope the NFL didn't fuck them over. What else could they do?
Realistically? All they could have done was leak this shit the whole way through. May or may not have helped. They thought that by being good soldiers the NFL would treat then fairly. They were wrong.
I found the original transcript of that PC:sonofgodcf said:
It's not about the ball-handling, it's clearly about the investigation, the leaks and the demeanor. So Goodell is both a liar and a slimy asshole.
And I think attacking Pash is smart. Goodell will bristle at personal criticism, and the owners will stand behind him. But I'm not sure anyone gives a fuck about guys like Pash and Kensil. They're high-ups around the league but 99% of the public has no idea who these guys are.crystalline said:
I guess it's a case of semantics. If the Pats begged for an inquiry as to who was responsible for the leaks, Goodell said Wells would have the opportunity to investigate the leaks, but conveniently didn't and we know that Wells only investigated what he was told to investigate by the NFL, facts, truth, and science be damned then one can infer that Goodell told him to stay away from the leaks. Then Goodell would be a liar since he blocked the investigation.pappymojo said:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/how-tom-brady-and-the-patriots-walked-into-roger-goodell-s-trap-is-baffling-161339870.html
About all the Pats could have done better was PR--as Wetzel points out. But Kraft truly trusted Goodell.
At 74 he may not quite be up to the streetfighting required to deal with the Kensil/Pash/Vincent cabal.
As somebody suggested, it may be Jonathan who has directed the refreshing PR of the last 48 hours.
About all the Pats could have done better was PR--as Wetzel points out. But Kraft truly trusted Goodell.
At 74 he may not quite be up to the streetfighting required to deal with the Kensil/Pash/Vincent cabal.
As somebody suggested, it may be Jonathan who has directed the refreshing PR of the last 48 hours.
What rivals? There are none. Fox took a run at ESPN now many years ago and failed quickly. ESPN monopolizes this segment. This is too much of a niche story to command the attention of the general media absent some cataclysmic event.
We might as well be living under Andropov in the Soviet Union in the 1980s. The only thing that can move the needle is a blistering opinion by Judge Berman that incorporates some of these things and that ESPN would have no choice but to cover.
EDIT -- it is nice, though, to see the NBC logo on orofootballtalk.com.
Florio is hitting it out of the park.
We might as well be living under Andropov in the Soviet Union in the 1980s. The only thing that can move the needle is a blistering opinion by Judge Berman that incorporates some of these things and that ESPN would have no choice but to cover.
EDIT -- it is nice, though, to see the NBC logo on orofootballtalk.com.
Florio is hitting it out of the park.
Right, because the Lakers, Yankees, and Cowboys are really hurting to bring in that marginal fanbase.
JMHO, but with the legal stuff today and Brady's Facebook statement that he made a settlement offer and desire to expedite this, I'm starting to move from the thinking there will be no settlements ever camp towards thinking this is heading for a one game with no admission of guilt settlement.
I took the mention of a settlement offer to mean he would agree to no games lost and a small fine, in accordance with what's actually in the CBA. I see little reason to think he will back down now.
Don't visit the lawyer thread then. All of the settlements people are saying Brady should be happy with are very disappointing. The best one I saw was the most recent - no suspension, but 4 game checks + apology for destroying phone.Papelbon's Poutine said:
Sorry, i should have clarified that I took the *previous* offer - before the ruling - as to be that. Now I think he'd take a bigger fine, but I personally don't see him taking any games (even if has to play them for free). I've read through that thread and while there is obviously many suggestions that we should reserve our optimism, I still read plenty from the lawyers that gave me hope that Berman will reverse it. Probably just being an optimist about it, but I think he doesn't settle for a minute lost on the field and would risk the four to do it.djbayko said:
I'm with you. I just find the conversation over there since it became clear that Berman was interested in pressing a settlement sobering, that's all. I think everyone is hoping for: (a) a small punishment on par with how serious the violation is, and (b) a written decision by the judge that helps Brady's image in some way.Papelbon said:
I guess the dream right now is: Berman really is inclined to rule for NFLPA and presses NFL to settle. NFL is too stupid to accept settlement that includes no suspension and follows recent pattern of letting judge overrule their harsh punishment. Judge's opinion puts NFL in its place.
djbayko said:
The problem I have with that discussion is that the lawyers are treating this as if it was a typical arbitration where two parties get a ruling from a neutral arbitrator and then the winning side asks for confirmation of the award while the loser contests the award. That's a typical post-arbitration case and if a judge made a plea for the parties to settle, they would be well advised to do so.
In this case, the arbitrator is actually one of the parties to the dispute. And the issues being resolved are related to the CBA. So neither side is particularly incentivized to craft a reasonable compromise and I don't expect one to materialize unless the NFL is willing to vacate the suspension. (They very well may be if the alternative is even less pleasant.)
Yes, the Mort thing is the key to changing opinions - because most people believe that the NFL and ESPN have no particular bias, and so why would they say the Pats are cheaters if they don't have evidence?grsharky7 said:
Once it's clear the NFL is biased, the whole case goes up in smoke.
It's remarkably similar to the McDonald's hot coffee case. We all believed that the old lady who dropped the coffee was filing a frivolous suit because that's what the media was repeating. As with Brady, the facts were always on her side, with third degree burns that required skin grafts. But what caused people to change their minds was realizing the bias at work- that corporations put a lot of money into PR campaigns attacking consumer lawsuits. That's what made the movie so compelling.
I wish the emails between the Pats and NFL was getting more traction nationally, seems like it was totally buried and outside of Pats fans nobody really knows/cares. I feel like if the general public were to see those exchanges it would change a lot of opinions, the NFL basically telling the Pats to screw off we'll do what we want. I can't wait for some other teams to get the Roger Goodell joy ride going forward, we can just sit back and say told you so.
It's truly astonishing that it isn't getting more press. I woke up this morning and wanted to catch up on trade deadline stuff. I haven't watched sportscenter in years and this controversy is only pushing me further away. So I tuned into the fox sports 1 equivalent. They teased an update on deflategate. The extent of the update was that Kraft was angry and it was Kraft vs the NFL. No details or even mentions of the emails or what was in them. It was the most useless update.grsharky7 said:
I know Fox is also a broadcast partner but there's parts of this that embarrass ESPN. That nobody nationally (save Florio, Jenkins and Wetzel) will cover this sucks. It makes me mad that Felger isn't digging into this because sadly he's the most prominent voice in Boston. Why does no one see that the corruption in the NFL office is the much juicier story
Pretty well established by now what drives clicks and eyeballs with regard to this story. No one should be surprised at the slanted coverage by now- maybe disappointed or outraged or incredulous, but not surprised.allstonite said:
Shit the NFL even got it wrong in its letter to the Pats. Although it is not clear whether that was intentional or due to a lack of communication
Just for the record I am not a pats fan. I'm an Eagles fan but I like to use the same amount of logic and common sense for sport as I do elsewhere in life. Because well I can't really think of any reason not to frankly. I like to be informed and if not I'll not speak as if I do. I guess I'm rare.
Anyway it was clear to me from an early stage that this was nonsense regardless of any dodgy seeming behaviour. Even before I found out about the mort total lies etc it was still ridiculous. Frankly I got very bored a long time ago and stopped reading because the whole thing seemed stupid. Then the suspensions etc and the appeal result came and while I couldn't face wading through the pages on here in so many threads it was enough to read some sensible independent, and shockingly evidence based reporting.
At this point anyone siding with the nfl side should be shown some of the better links and asked to actually read them. If they won't they shut the f up. To deliberately ignore them is just idiocy to allow your preconceived views on the patriots.
Further goddell's handing of rice and frankly hardy among many other missteps makes it very very hard to assume the NFL played this fair. He's about to be caught out (imo) again and I am glad that the patriots are finally getting tough.
Anyway in summary, please don't assume non pats fans are against Brady and the pats. I fully hope not only the suspension is reversed but it's used as another point of leverage to remove a person who is doing huge damage to a game I love. I actually care far more now it's becoming more clear that is some dirty and downright outrageous behaviour from the office in charge of protecting the NFL than I did when the stories where about bathrooms and text conspiracies.
Edit I hope even if the suspension is reversed it goes further to show abuse of power and push out the current regime. This is not Fifa in terms of bribery and outright corruption but it's got that same smell of arrogance and abuse of a lack of recourse for those wronged. If they keep getting away with it, it won't get better.
Anyway it was clear to me from an early stage that this was nonsense regardless of any dodgy seeming behaviour. Even before I found out about the mort total lies etc it was still ridiculous. Frankly I got very bored a long time ago and stopped reading because the whole thing seemed stupid. Then the suspensions etc and the appeal result came and while I couldn't face wading through the pages on here in so many threads it was enough to read some sensible independent, and shockingly evidence based reporting.
At this point anyone siding with the nfl side should be shown some of the better links and asked to actually read them. If they won't they shut the f up. To deliberately ignore them is just idiocy to allow your preconceived views on the patriots.
Further goddell's handing of rice and frankly hardy among many other missteps makes it very very hard to assume the NFL played this fair. He's about to be caught out (imo) again and I am glad that the patriots are finally getting tough.
Anyway in summary, please don't assume non pats fans are against Brady and the pats. I fully hope not only the suspension is reversed but it's used as another point of leverage to remove a person who is doing huge damage to a game I love. I actually care far more now it's becoming more clear that is some dirty and downright outrageous behaviour from the office in charge of protecting the NFL than I did when the stories where about bathrooms and text conspiracies.
Edit I hope even if the suspension is reversed it goes further to show abuse of power and push out the current regime. This is not Fifa in terms of bribery and outright corruption but it's got that same smell of arrogance and abuse of a lack of recourse for those wronged. If they keep getting away with it, it won't get better.
tims4wins said:
Agreed. The nefarious part of the story is that the NFL knew the actual measurements soon after that tweet, and steadfastly refused to offer a correction. It's possible that the leaker did not know, but someone in the NFL offices DID. And nothing was done about it.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/patriots--fight-with-nfl-gets-nastier-with-release-of-emails-005610492.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma
Another good Wetzel contribution, on the email dump: Goodell has now "created a bitter enemy" in Kraft, who's revealing "a league office drunk with power, overwhelmed by prejudice...."
Another good Wetzel contribution, on the email dump: Goodell has now "created a bitter enemy" in Kraft, who's revealing "a league office drunk with power, overwhelmed by prejudice...."
Didn't see it posted, but pretty nice article from Rolling Stone denouncing Goodell's handling of everything:
This logic is flawed. We now know that Goodell is/was going to push this as hard as possible without Brady opening the door by speaking......why would Goodell then close this door that Brady opened? I've heard so many people say this same thing but it doesn't pass the smell test. To believe this is to believe Goodell would then say, "Oh ok thanks Tom just don't let it happen again." C'mon now. This was a vendetta against the Patriots that began prior to the Indianapolis playoff game.ivanvamp said:
The perception issue is a very good example of the vicious circle.
The public perception is fueled by media coverage which in itself is fueled by perception. For example, to this day many NFL fans think that the Pats taped the Rams SB walkthrough. How did that perception get there? Terrible reporting. Which future stories or reports on the Cheatriots!TM are likely to get more eyeballs? Ones that reinforce the original perception. And so it goes...
Sidebar: In the non-media perception part of the Cheatriots!TM origin story, most fans have watched the Pats decimate their favorite teams and players for almost two decades. That builds up plenty of bad blood. Every time they see BB at a press conference he comes off as a mean jerk. A lot of people just don't like him. Also, many fans believe that the Brady fumble call against the Raiders was a bad one and that the Pats got away with something illegal and did not win that game fairly- and they've have been getting away with various shenanigans ever since. All of those things play into the perception issue as well.
The public perception is fueled by media coverage which in itself is fueled by perception. For example, to this day many NFL fans think that the Pats taped the Rams SB walkthrough. How did that perception get there? Terrible reporting. Which future stories or reports on the Cheatriots!TM are likely to get more eyeballs? Ones that reinforce the original perception. And so it goes...
Sidebar: In the non-media perception part of the Cheatriots!TM origin story, most fans have watched the Pats decimate their favorite teams and players for almost two decades. That builds up plenty of bad blood. Every time they see BB at a press conference he comes off as a mean jerk. A lot of people just don't like him. Also, many fans believe that the Brady fumble call against the Raiders was a bad one and that the Pats got away with something illegal and did not win that game fairly- and they've have been getting away with various shenanigans ever since. All of those things play into the perception issue as well.
Agreed 100%. Felger is big on this line of thinking. "They should have just cooperated with the league from the get-go! But all they did is dig in their heels and deny, deny, deny!" He believes that if Brady and the team had just admitted culpability and cooperated, the league would not have come down nearly so hard on them. I think this is completely full of crap; the league would have absolutely hammered them regardless of what their response was.HomeRunBaker said:
The thing Felger ignores is that "digging in your heels" and "denying, denying, denying" are exactly what you would do if you knew you did absolutely nothing wrong. But he doesn't even entertain this as a possibility.
And people wonder why there are false confessions in the criminal justice system.Gorton Fisherman said:
Goodell even alluded to Kraft's decision to accept the penalty in May in his Brady decision.