#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[geoduck no quahog]

Confirming the highest quality of "reporting" about this case, we have the following nuggets from Ken Belson of the NYT today:
 

Brady sat slumped over through most of the public proceedings. In a blue suit, white shirt, black tie and white handkerchief in his breast pocket, Brady looked perplexed at times...
 

 
Forgot to mention what color Brady's socks were.
 
 

After more than four hours of meetings, Brady and his entourage were hustled into three black Suburbans with tinted windows. The police stopped traffic so they could speed away.
 

 
This is what happens when you're instructed to fill up "x" amount of column inches by your boss.

 

[Shelterdog]

Well, my friend Gary T told me that the DD twins are being handsomely paid by the Pats (or Brady himself) to keep quiet.  Once that stops, TMZ will be the first to know.  

 
This wouldn't be shocking if this were true (at least the "here's a good job and don't talk to anybody about anything" part.) Better for them to be with you in the tent pissing out then outside the tent pissing in, and we all have to remember that this isn't an actual criminal or regulatory investigation but rather some  NFL bullshit.
 
It's a lot less likely they'd be on payroll if the Pats actually believed that they'd deflated balls.

 

[djbayko]

So Brady was supposed to turn over to the NFL all of his communications so that NFL staff members could fish through all of his texts and emails from the last year and try and find anything he said to anyone that might possibly be about this issue?
 
And also trust them not to leak anything else that might be personal or somehow damaging even though unrelated to the matter at hand?
 
Reasonable.

I never said he should have. In fact, I was very careful not to say that. I am just countering the argument that Wells had a access to everything they wanted. Is this really a question? There is clearly a dispute.

Edit: And do we even know what the criteria was and if it was somewhat reasonable?

 

[djbayko]

 
The fact that a guy who apparently at some point had an axe to grind with Brady for being too demanding with ball prep hasn't given the press anything regarding this case, even when hounded, tells me he very likely has nothing to hide there. 

And after being fired from his long time (and pretty cool) job.

 

[amarshal2]

Well, my friend Gary T told me that the DD twins are being handsomely paid by the Pats (or Brady himself) to keep quiet.  Once that stops, TMZ will be the first to know.  

 
I have thought about this prior to hearing the whispers about Kraft employing JJ (McNally is irrelevant because it was not his full-time job).  My takeaway is that if Kraft thinks JJ is innocent then it's a no-win situation for him.  If he doesn't give JJ a job then Kraft has fired him for nothing and potentially irreparably impaired his ability to find work (how many equipment manager jobs are out there?).  If he does give JJ a job it looks like a potential quid pro quo.
 
I figured he'd risk the latter and give JJ a job.  For that reason, I'd be surprised if he's employing McNally.  There's not really a reason for it.  We have heard explicitly on this board rumors that it's only one of them.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

And after being fired from his long time (and pretty cool) job.

 
He hasn't been fired, has he? Suspended by the team at the request of the NFL. If he's been fired I missed the announcement.

 

[amarshal2]

Interesting. I assumed the opposite because JM was full time (i.e. he depended on the salary for food on the table). He'd be more likely to accept a job with (gulp) the Revs than someone who might have been doing it just for the thrills. Doesn't JJ live a couple hours away from Foxboro?

You just have their rolls backwards.  McNally was a game day employee.  He worked only a few days a year.  Jastremski was an equipment manager and a full-time employee.

 

[djbayko]

You just have their rolls backwards.  McNally was a game day employee.  He worked only a few days a year.  Jastremski was an equipment manager and a full-time employee.

Thanks.

 

[djbayko]

 
He hasn't been fired, has he? Suspended by the team at the request of the NFL. If he's been fired I missed the announcement.

Hmmm...I thought it was reported they were fired a short time after the suspension. I could be wrong.

Suspension or firing, my point still stands.

 

[doc]

If Brady took a deal that reduced the penalty to 1 game or 0 games and a fine but acknowledging some vague generally aware thing  what would stop  Goodell from punishing him for lying under oath?

 

[BroodsSexton]

If Brady took a deal that reduced the penalty to 1 game or 0 games and a fine but acknowledging some vague generally aware thing  what would stop  Goodell from punishing him for lying under oath.

.
The settlement agreement would have release language.

 

[Captaincoop]

I don't think your characterization matches the facts.
 
Regardless of whether you think the request itself was in any way legitimate, I think the NFL's request was circumscribed quite a bit. Something along the lines of "You don't actually have to hand the phone over.  Yee can do the search (hire someone to do it); please search these words (or have them searched) and send us the results. We'll trust that you will do this in good faith."
 
So while there's disagreement over whether ANY request is legit, I think the idea that they wanted the (physical) phone itself is wrong.

 
Even if the request were limited in that way, it's still an unwarranted fishing expedition into his personal messages and materials.  He has testified on the record several times, unequivocally, that he had nothing to do with (and was unaware of) any tampering with the footballs.  They have the communications with the two people that he would have had to communicate with if he were a co-conspirator (it feels stupid to even type that in reference to taking air out of footballs).  As far as I read (maybe I missed something), the NFL never specified what it was looking for beyond that.  I see no reason why he would have complied with that request.

 

[joe dokes]

Even if the request were limited in that way, it's still an unwarranted fishing expedition into his personal messages and materials.  He has testified on the record several times, unequivocally, that he had nothing to do with (and was unaware of) any tampering with the footballs.  They have the communications with the two people that he would have had to communicate with if he were a co-conspirator (it feels stupid to even type that in reference to taking air out of footballs).  As far as I read (maybe I missed something), the NFL never specified what it was looking for beyond that.  I see no reason why he would have complied with that request.
 

 
Yes. I am familiar with all the reasons why Brady would not comply with ANY request. That's what the "regardless" part meant in the first sentence; and what the "so while there's disagreement" part in the last sentence meant.
I think its well established that different people here have different opinions about the legitimacy of ANY request regarding his phone and I was not intending to wade into that. I was responding to a prior post which implied that Wells had asked for the physical phone - which is, IMO, a far more intrusive request than the one I think he actually made. I understand that you and others think that ANY request is over the line. I don't. But: a) there's little point in having that argument again; and b) if there was a point, it is useful to be arguing from the same factual context, i.e., what Wells actually asked for.  My post was only concerned with (b).

 

[Myt1]

I still fail to see why the phone is a big deal.

Somehow, I doubt that the 98th explanation would be the one that would make you see.

 

[twothousandone]

Even if the request were limited in that way, it's still an unwarranted fishing expedition into his personal messages and materials.

Brady agreed to the request with respect to e-mail. That's why we know about the pool cover and Manning.

I don't know every way possible to extract text messages from a phone and give them to Wells, but I can think of one: go through every text message exchanged with JJ, put it on top of a copy machine and make a copy. Scroll and repeat. Do it with, at least, any other text messages exchanged with Patriots employees -- because the NFL would have their phones to cross-check it. Brady could have complied without turning over the phone.

Now, logistically, I don't know who does the photocopying -- an intern at Yee's firm? Brady's assistant? And I don't know who checks for completeness. Wells, it seems to me, was in a position to then look at every text message Brady said was relevant, and make sure nothing possibly relevant from Brady to JJ (from JJ's phone) was excluded. If one text to JJ wasn't included in Brady's submission, but Wells had it from JJ's phone, is that an "oversight" or is it evidence of trying to hide damning evidence? In hindsight, it would have been viewed as the latter. At the time, Brady wouldn't have known that.

It would be, in theory if not execution, similar to what he did with his e-mail records. Find everything possibly relevant, and give it to Wells. Wells would never have Brady's Dad's phone, so he couldn't cross-check for completeness, and Brady probably wouldn't want to share the text message with his Dad where he wrote "I'd like to pin a medal on Gronk." But he could have. Or at least he could have tried.

 

[Hoya81]

 
Yes. I am familiar with all the reasons why Brady would not comply with ANY request. That's what the "regardless" part meant in the first sentence; and what the "so while there's disagreement" part in the last sentence meant.
I think its well established that different people here have different opinions about the legitimacy of ANY request regarding his phone and I was not intending to wade into that. I was responding to a prior post which implied that Wells had asked for the physical phone - which is, IMO, a far more intrusive request than the one I think he actually made. I understand that you and others think that ANY request is over the line. I don't. But: a) there's little point in having that argument again; and b) if there was a point, it is useful to be arguing from the same factual context, i.e., what Wells actually asked for.  My post was only concerned with (b).

Was the NFL out of line in asking for all communications related to deflation? Suppose Brady had refused to turnover any communications that involved his wife or his agent, would he had some expectation of privilege?

 

[Myt1]

Curious - on what grounds would Berman have for further fact-finding?  Not my area of law, but I thought it was pretty clear that the District Court had to accept the findings of fact unless clearly erroneous and could not be a fact-finder?
 
Also, the fact that the parties agreed to have the decision based solely on the arbitration record makes it less likely that any thing like a trial on the merits could happen I would think.

If one of the live issues is Goodell's partiality, and you're not in some smoking gun res ipsa land, it's not the sort of thing that Brady would be likely able to prove absent some discovery. Then, I don't think you get a full blown trial, but I could see some sort of an evidentiary hearing, which are held for motions sometimes.

I don't know that it would happen here, but I can pretty easily conceive of a universe in which one would be helpful, and, absent someone (especially MSF or another resident labor lawyer) citing a rule or a case to the contrary, I'd not be so sanguine that it's an impossibility.

I do some practice with probably the most deferential federal district court review that exists, and we still have to deal with evidentiary hearings on occasion. Lots of things are possible.

 

[Captaincoop]

 
Yes. I am familiar with all the reasons why Brady would not comply with ANY request. That's what the "regardless" part meant in the first sentence; and what the "so while there's disagreement" part in the last sentence meant.
I think its well established that different people here have different opinions about the legitimacy of ANY request regarding his phone and I was not intending to wade into that. I was responding to a prior post which implied that Wells had asked for the physical phone - which is, IMO, a far more intrusive request than the one I think he actually made. I understand that you and others think that ANY request is over the line. I don't. But: a) there's little point in having that argument again; and b) if there was a point, it is useful to be arguing from the same factual context, i.e., what Wells actually asked for.  My post was only concerned with (b).

 
My ultimate point, which I'm not articulating clearly enough, is what I believe Bakahump is also trying to say - it would not have mattered if Brady complied with the request for the phone or for the messages from the phone.  Just like it is irrelevant whether he "destroyed" the phone. 
 
It should be obvious that there was nothing Brady was going to provide that could have proved the negative here - that he wasn't involved in any scheme to tamper with the footballs.  Anything he did provide, especially related to something so broad as results of several keyword searches of 10,000+ messages, would have been taken and used in whatever way possible to smear him and make him look either guilty in this case, or just to defame him generally. 
 
He has to take the tact in court that he is sorry about not complying with the request fully, but I still think he did the right thing and would probably choose the same course of action again.

 

[dcmissle]

.
The settlement agreement would have release language.

Yes.

Look, things have been bad, but the nightmare eventually ends.

Perjury raps and the thing that Shelter rightly said would get the NFL annihilated are not going to happen.

This is bizzare enough without inventing crazy hypotheticals. If RG suspended TB immediately after Berman vacated the ruling, the owners would probably order RG to take a 4-week vacation.

Berman, by the way, is very deftly making a statement about just how weird this is, the grotesque place we find ourselves in with the ESPN nonsense and the outsized place the NFL occupies in out national life.

I love football, but this is just a joke. A sick one.

 

[djbayko]

 
My ultimate point, which I'm not articulating clearly enough, is what I believe Bakahump is also trying to say - it would not have mattered if Brady complied with the request for the phone or for the messages from the phone.  Just like it is irrelevant whether he "destroyed" the phone. 
 
It should be obvious that there was nothing Brady was going to provide that could have proved the negative here - that he wasn't involved in any scheme to tamper with the footballs.  Anything he did provide, especially related to something so broad as results of several keyword searches of 10,000+ messages, would have been taken and used in whatever way possible to smear him and make him look either guilty in this case, or just to defame him generally. 
 
He has to take the tact in court that he is sorry about not complying with the request fully, but I still think he did the right thing and would probably choose the same course of action again.

Bakahump should have like, said that then. He didn't come close to saying that.

Every time this topic comes up, someone very passionately twists it into an argument that was not being made. Here is the post to which I replied to start this whole mess.

I still fail to see why the phone is a big deal.
 
I think that Big Sox Fan, Gerhig38 and Omars Whacky Neighbor are hatching some elaborate plot. I think they are using their phones to to orchestrate meetings about the conspiracy or to develop and implement the plan itself.
 
I receive both Big Sox Fan and Omars phone and find no evidence in the form of specific texts of a plot with G38.
 
I then demand G38s phone?  Why?  If I have irrefutable proof that he did not talk to BSF and OWN via phone (IOW the lack of communications on THE EMPLOYEE PHONES) why do I need G38s?
 
Phones work both ways guys.  There wouldnt be a record on G38s phone without a corresponding record on BSFs or OWNs.
 
Unless the NFL thinks that there is a bigger conspiracy with some missing link who relayed the messages.  Even then there has been no mention of "Texts from a 3rd party who seems to be relaying Mr. Bradys instructions."
 
The phone is a non starter.

And all I said was that it's not at all clear Wells had access to the phones of all other individuals who were party to relevant texts.

Edit: People here are talking past each other because of an unwillingness to see that the following 3 statements can all be true at the same time:

1) Ted Wells did not have access to all texts he wanted for his investigation.

2) Tom Brady was justified in not giving up his phone or contents of his phone.

3) Tom Brady might be in a better position today if he had given access to contents of his phone (at least PR-wise, if not in arbitration and court).

 

[joe dokes]

Was the NFL out of line in asking for all communications related to deflation? Suppose Brady had refused to turnover any communications that involved his wife or his agent, would he had some expectation of privilege?          
 

 
If I read the request correctly from the transcript, then I didn't find the request out-of-line. 
 
If Brady agreed to Wells's terms of disclosure, and did the search requested, and Yee said, "OK Ted, here's a printout of the texts using those terms.  And here is list of dates and times of communications (but not the actual communications themselves) between Tom and his lawyer and Tom and his wife that might otherwise qualify, but they are protected by atty-client and spousal privilege." 
 
That's the usual result in civil litigation.  Turn over the requested stuff or object to certain requests. And if there's a privilege claim as to stuff that might otherwise fit the bill, create what's called a "privilege log".   And sometimes there's a fight over whether the stuff in the privilege log is really privileged.

 

[dcmissle]

So I voted. Health permitting, I believe Tom Brady plays 16 regular season games in 2016.

I get there as follows. Berman is appalled by the unfairness of what has transpired these many month. Now he can rubber stamp the result, while eviscerating the process in an opinion. But here is the rub --

Berman aready probably believes that Donald Trump gets elected Preaident of the United States before the players change this disciplinary machinery in the next CBA negotiation. That truly is mission impossible, and Berman knows it. He's an educated man.

The altruist in him -- the liberal in him, for want of a better word -- when push comes to shove is not going to pen an opinion that turns an 800 pound gorilla without conscience into an 8000 pound gorilla without conscience.

If he can"t bludgeon a settlement, he goes down Doty highway and produces a scintillating opinion, powerful because it will be measured.

 

[Shelterdog]

 
If I read the request correctly from the transcript, then I didn't find the request out-of-line. 
 
If Brady agreed to Wells's terms of disclosure, and did the search requested, and Yee said, "OK Ted, here's a printout of the texts using those terms.  And here is list of dates and times of communications (but not the actual communications themselves) between Tom and his lawyer and Tom and his wife that might otherwise qualify, but they are protected by atty-client and spousal privilege." 
 
That's the usual result in civil litigation.  Turn over the requested stuff or object to certain requests. And if there's a privilege claim as to stuff that might otherwise fit the bill, create what's called a "privilege log".   And sometimes there's a fight over whether the stuff in the privilege log is really privileged.

 
Sometimes?

 

[Myt1]

Do you see privilege fights a lot? I see them incredibly rarely. Hell, by agreement of the parties, I've seen plenty of cases where priv logs aren't even exchanged.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Let's say your employer suspects you've been communicating without authorization to a bidder. This is not against the law, but against company policy.
 
He, of course, has every right to possess and search all your company emails to discover any incriminating evidence. I don't think he has the right to go through your personal emails without some sort of court order. True? (EDIT: Reading the posts directly above - it looks like that may be an incorrect conclusion on my part)
 
He also has the right to dismiss you based on an issued Company Policy, suspicion and non-cooperation and you have the right to dispute that. I think this is the analogy.
 
As for the current hearing, we shouldn't lose sight of the criteria being discussed:
 
1. Lack of Notice
2. Insufficient Procedures
3. Unfair Process
4. Goodell Partiality

 

[Shelterdog]

Do you see privilege fights a lot? I see them incredibly rarely. Hell, by agreement of the parties, I've seen plenty of cases where priv logs aren't even exchanged.

 
All the time.  Quite common for big firms litigating in the SDNY although disputes generally get resolved before anyone actually gets in front of a judge [and generally a couple of minutes after a partner looks at the documents marked by contract attorneys on a 13,000 line privilege log as privileged for the first time and says "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS AND HOW THE HELL CAN I SAY AN EMAIL TO 175 PEOPLE SETTING UP A CONFERENCE CALL ABOUT EARNINGS AND COPYING 2 LAWYERs IS PRIVILEGED")]. 
 
EDIT: To be fair I haven't been doing a ton of civil litigation the past couple of years so maybe it's become less common. 

 

[natpastime162]

Stupid enough to not garner a response

 

[Myt1]

 
All the time.  Quite common for big firms litigating in the SDNY although disputes generally get resolved before anyone actually gets in front of a judge [and generally a couple of minutes after a partner looks at the documents marked by contract attorneys on a 13,000 line privilege log as privileged for the first time and says "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS AND HOW THE HELL CAN I SAY AN EMAIL TO 175 PEOPLE SETTING UP A CONFERENCE CALL ABOUT EARNINGS AND COPYING 2 LAWYERs IS PRIVILEGED")]. 
 
EDIT: To be fair I haven't been doing a ton of civil litigation the past couple of years so maybe it's become less common. 

Ha! That's awesome. Just another example of expansive electronic discovery having pretty much the opposite effect of what's intended.

 

[edmunddantes]

I do agree with Florio. 
 
I think if Brady is smart. He shows up next week for the settlement conference, and says "I'm here if you need me to participate, answer any questions, or sign off on anything."
 
It's not going to hurt him other than missing some pre-season reps.
 
But that's just me. I'd also alter it if the Berman was explicit in saying "I don't want you both here. I want to work with the lawyers for a bit"

 

[twothousandone]

If he can"t bludgeon a settlement, he goes down Doty highway and produces a scintillating opinion, powerful because it will be measured.

On what grounds do you believe it is vacated?
 
1. Lack of Notice
2. Insufficient Procedures
3. Unfair Process
4. Goodell Partiality

 

[tims4wins]

I have a question on the phone.

I am somewhat OCD. Or at least, I have tendencies. One of those tendencies is to delete text messages basically immediately after I reply. It's more of an inbox zero type of mentality than any kinds of privacy or security concerns.

So my question is, if I gave my phone to a forensics guy, would he be able to recover every text I ever sent? How - SIM card?

I can't be the only one who routinely deletes text strings, so I am trying to understand how they could recover every text message sent during a period of time. I apologize for my stupidity when it comes to this type of technological question.

 

[Van Everyman]

There would still be a record of who he texted whether or not it was deleted. As noted, Brady handed over a spreadsheet w every text he sent and who he sent them to. Now that didn't have the text of the texts themselves. But it showed the phone numbers of everyone he texted, including those with team-issued phones which were taken into custody by Wells. Between those texts and the list of the people he texted, my understanding is the NFL had seen or had the ability to recover all the relevant texts.

 

[Van Everyman]

Also:

@BenVolin: Jonathan Kraft asked on #Patriots pregame radio show about a settlement. "Anything that Tom Brady feels is best for him is fine with us."

 

[tedseye]

 
My thought is that Berman could have a status conference with the parties where he says I cannot rule without more development of the record.  That would be
highly unorthodox and unusual, and while I do litigate in my bankruptcy practice, I involve actual litigators when it comes to procedural issues or other nitty gritty litigation matters.  So it's possible that I am dreaming and the scenario I envisioned would not come up.  That said, Berman's questions yesterday raised the possibility in my mind.  I stand ready to be disabused of this notion if it's off base.

The logical parameters of the discovery permitted would be of facts relevant to the bias/prejudice of the "arbitrator " and of the "independent" investigation, thus communications among Goodell, his subordinates, Wells and his subordinates and Exponent/Marlow.

 

[bakahump]

Bakahump should have like, said that then. He didn't come close to saying that.

Every time this topic comes up, someone very passionately twists it into an argument that was not being made. Here is the post to which I replied to start this whole mess.


And all I said was that it's not at all clear Wells had access to the phones of all other individuals who were party to relevant texts.

Edit: People here are talking past each other because of an unwillingness to see that the following 3 statements can all be true at the same time:

1) Ted Wells did not have access to all texts he wanted for his investigation.

2) Tom Brady was justified in not giving up his phone or contents of his phone.

3) Tom Brady might be in a better position today if he had given access to contents of his phone (at least PR-wise, if not in arbitration and court).

1. Who were the other people he wanted clarification of texts from?  If it was an NFL(or team) Employee...then Wells had mandate to get those. Thats how he got the Doritio Twins phones in the first place.
If it was Joe Smoe...private citizen.....then there should have been a text from him saying "Hey guys....make sure we are below 12.5 because thats how Tom likes it" to the Patriot issued Cell phones.  That has not leaked.....and if it did exist on the Equipment guys phones (which Wells had total access to)  I believe it would have leaked as it would be damning.   I also believe that the NFL would have said "THE reason we wanted Toms phone was to see if he had any conversations with Joe Smoe asking him to direct the Equipment guys to deflate balls".
 
To want or need Bradys phone you need to believe that one of the following took place.
Dorito Twins <--> Joe Smoe <-->Tom Brady.  (which is the current reason for "why we needed the phone")
Or
Dorito Twins <--> Tom Brady. (which was obviously not there or there would be a record on the Twins phone)
 
There is no Evidence, leak or even rumor of a "Smoe". I find that odd considering how hard the NFL has worked to win the PR battle.....if it was there wouldnt we have a hint.
 
The absence of that leak leads me to believe there was nothing on the Employee phones (Other then the ambigious "deflator texts" between themselves). Nothing from Brady directing it (or this would be a open and shut case) and nothing from a "Smoe" which would have been part of the PR battle (and or Wells report).
 
 
SO if not on the phone....now your looking for not only "Smoe"  but also how Smoe communicated with the equipment guys.  The NFL would then need to make that connection and should be able to do so....even without Bradys phone. Again there has not been any mention of Smoe and Meetings in person or communications in emails or in Letters or by telegraph etc etc to the Twins.  Which makes me believe "there is nothing there" re: the phone.
 
There comes a point where I assume that even if Brady had been part of a conspiracy that it would be too complicated to have been put in place.
Remember.....this supposedly wasnt a big deal....nor was it really monitored by the league....yet now we have to believe that Brady, recruited a middle man and had him use a non electronic form of communication all for deniability sake for something that "wasnt a big deal" just in case the league you know someday gets a hair across its ass about this.
 
 
For me that starts to get far fetched.  Show me the evidence of a Smoe....then tell me how he is connected (friend,assistant, bodyman, cousin  etc etc) to Brady.   Then I can see why you need Bradys phone.

 

[djbayko]

1. Who were the other people he wanted clarification of texts from?  If it was an NFL(or team) Employee...then Wells had mandate to get those. Thats how he got the Doritio Twins phones in the first place.
If it was Joe Smoe...private citizen.....then there should have been a text from him saying "Hey guys....make sure we are below 12.5 because thats how Tom likes it" to the Patriot issued Cell phones.  That has not leaked.....and if it did exist on the Equipment guys phones (which Wells had total access to)  I believe it would have leaked as it would be damning.   I also believe that the NFL would have said "THE reason we wanted Toms phone was to see if he had any conversations with Joe Smoe asking him to direct the Equipment guys to deflate balls".
 
To want or need Bradys phone you need to believe that one of the following took place.
Dorito Twins <--> Joe Smoe <-->Tom Brady.  (which is the current reason for "why we needed the phone")
Or
Dorito Twins <--> Tom Brady. (which was obviously not there or there would be a record on the Twins phone)
 
There is no Evidence, leak or even rumor of a "Smoe". I find that odd considering how hard the NFL has worked to win the PR battle.....if it was there wouldnt we have a hint.
 
The absence of that leak leads me to believe there was nothing on the Employee phones (Other then the ambigious "deflator texts" between themselves). Nothing from Brady directing it (or this would be a open and shut case) and nothing from a "Smoe" which would have been part of the PR battle (and or Wells report).
 
 
SO if not on the phone....now your looking for not only "Smoe"  but also how Smoe communicated with the equipment guys.  The NFL would then need to make that connection and should be able to do so....even without Bradys phone. Again there has not been any mention of Smoe and Meetings in person or communications in emails or in Letters or by telegraph etc etc to the Twins.  Which makes me believe "there is nothing there" re: the phone.
 
There comes a point where I assume that even if Brady had been part of a conspiracy that it would be too complicated to have been put in place.
Remember.....this supposedly wasnt a big deal....nor was it really monitored by the league....yet now we have to believe that Brady, recruited a middle man and had him use a non electronic form of communication all for deniability sake for something that "wasnt a big deal" just in case the league you know someday gets a hair across its ass about this.
 
 
For me that starts to get far fetched.  Show me the evidence of a Smoe....then tell me how he is connected (friend,assistant, bodyman, cousin  etc etc) to Brady.   Then I can see why you need Bradys phone.

First, there are other categories of people besides Patriots employees and "Joe Shmoe"...namely, players - his teammates.

Second, your writing continues to imply that there would have to be a third "layer" of communication between Brady and the Dorito Twins. That's not necessary at all - tangential communications directly between Brady and these other parties are quite possible.

But more importantly, why are you going down this line of reasoning when we saw the criteria that was used for selecting emails for discovery? If we assume the same criteria was to be applied to text messages, then your point is moot because the logic is completely different. Brady's team admits that they did not comply with the request, yet you are trying to argue that they somehow did. If true, why wouldn't they take your stance?

 

[djbayko]

There would still be a record of who he texted whether or not it was deleted. As noted, Brady handed over a spreadsheet w every text he sent and who he sent them to. Now that didn't have the text of the texts themselves. But it showed the phone numbers of everyone he texted, including those with team-issued phones which were taken into custody by Wells. Between those texts and the list of the people he texted, my understanding is the NFL had seen or had the ability to recover all the relevant texts.

Technically recoverable? Sure, assuming the other parties didn't also delete the texts or destroy / recycle their phones. As a practical matter, we don't know how easy or difficult it would be. I haven't looked at the list to see how large it is. On top of that, we don't know how willing the other parties would be to cooperate. Assuming some number of those parties are players...well, we know how that usually goes.

Yee would like you to believe it was all at Goodell's fingertips. Goodell would like you to believe it was near impossible. The answer is somewhere in the middle, but we'll never know who is closer.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

OH. MY. GOD.
 
Go to 7:10 and watch the next 3 minutes.
 
There are no words...

 

[Byrdbrain]

I started watching it but fell asleep about a minute in, what did he say?
 
JK, they had this on EEI today. The total lack of self awareness is pretty amazing.

 

[Otis Foster]

The logical parameters of the discovery permitted would be of facts relevant to the bias/prejudice of the "arbitrator " and of the "independent" investigation, thus communications among Goodell, his subordinates, Wells and his subordinates and Exponent/Marlow.

That alone would be worth the price of admission.

 

[djbayko]

[url=" MY. GOD.%5B/url%5D
 
Go to 7:10 and watch the next 3 minutes.
 
There are no words...

I couldn't get past 2 minutes. He really is the least interesting man in the world. "a real pain in the...neck!" Don't dare say "ass" in front of these college grads, Roger.

Also, those life lessons are pretty remedial, aren't they? It's like he read in a book somewhere that a good manager should take in all information and use it to make the right decision, and he's been trying to master it ever since.

 

[Stu Nahan]

I started watching it but fell asleep about a minute in, what did he say?
 
JK, they had this on EEI today. The total lack of self awareness is pretty amazing.

Can someone describe this? I'm having problems with the link on my phone.

 

[jimbobim]

Can someone describe this? I'm having problems with the link on my phone.

RG describes how to make difficult decisions by weighing all facts, entertaining different viewpoints, and enduring criticism. This is all with Kraft sitting behind making some really ironic facial expressions IMHO.

 

[steveluck7]

Can someone describe this? I'm having problems with the link on my phone.

He goes step by step in describing his decision making process (from the Umass Lowell 2010 commencement)
1. A thoughtful process is critical to making good decisions - first comes good info. get your facts straight. Because of technology, your challenge is not the amount of information but determining its credibility
2. Listen... to many different viewpoints, esp. to those who disagree. Why? because you dont have all the answers. You need humility
3. resist the temptation to make premature decisions and be open to changing your position. It comes after a good process with discourse, dialogue, and some good thinking

 

[dcmissle]

On what grounds do you believe it is vacated?
 
1. Lack of Notice
2. Insufficient Procedures
3. Unfair Process
4. Goodell Partiality

How the hell do I know? I feel like a fool venturing a prediction.

Willd ass guess: 1 with a healthy dose of shop law, with your other elements sprinkled on the sundae.

 

[Dollar]

RG describes how to make difficult decisions by weighing all facts, entertaining different viewpoints, and enduring criticism. This is all with Kraft sitting behind making some really ironic facial expressions IMHO.

 
I missed Kraft the first time.  His head turn at 7:28 when Goodell says "get your facts straight" is priceless.
 

 

[Stu Nahan]

Thanks

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Can someone describe this? I'm having problems with the link on my phone.

 
Here are some snippets of Roger's stilted broken English:
 

How do you make decisions?
 
...a thoughtful process is critical to making good decisions.
 
First comes good information - get your facts straight!
 
...because of technology... there is so much access to information... 
 
...your challenge is not the amount of information, but detemining the credibility of that information and siphoning that information to help you make better decisions.
 
Then, LISTEN.  And listen to many different viewpoints, especially to those who disagree...
 
... Get as much feedback as you can from a diverse group of people...
 
WHY? ... because you do not have all the answers, no one does.  
 
You need humility and to understand that no one succeeds on their own.
 
You must also resist the temptation to make premature decisions and be open to changing your position to fnd a better solution. It might not be solution A or solution B but rather solution C, after a good process with discourse, dialog, and some good thinking. If it is a better solution, it doesn't matter who it came from. This world needs a lot less finger-pointing and a lot more solutions.
 
Much of what the commissioner does is resolve conflict. Many are tough decisions that come with a lot of criticism, but at the end of the day the decision must be made and it is about doing what is right.
 

 
Aside from the stilted delivery, the lack of substance beyond platitudes, and the rank hypocrisy, this guy uses the word solution way too much...

 

[Myt1]

I'm far more definitive in my prediction. I pretty definitively think that either yecul or dc will end up being right.

 

[dcmissle]

Well yecul is not a lawyer, so he'll probably be right. And that would be some hangover -- till we beat everybody by 10+ points every game.