#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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H78

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I don't know, I hope you're right, but I could have sworn I read several quotes months ago (maybe from Peter King?) that Goodell was getting a ton of pressure from owners behind the scenes to "not let the Patriots get off easy 'this time'." Someone wrote an article outlining how a ton of owners feel the Patriots got off easy with SpyGate and Deflategate is being viewed as a way to "make it right."
 

pappymojo

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I suspect that there are many issues at play.

As far as the owners:

1) some owners including but not limited to Isray and Woody Johnson truly believe that the Patriots are cheater, cheater cheating meanies.
2) some owners hear the gossip and think there must be something to it. Some of this gossip is coming from other owners and league representatives, but some of it is coming from their own staff (such as all the anonymous bullshit in that ESPN article on Spygate where coaches know that the Patriots bugged the locker room or some other stupid bullshit).
3) some owners don't know/don't care. Completely happy to make money.
4) some owners probably know that it is all bull shit but are not incentivized to make any noise because why should they care. Fuck the Patriots.
5) some owners probably know that it is all bull shit but are afraid to get on Roger's bad side.

At the owner level, no one really gives a shit to see the matter handled fairly. The only ones, besides Kraft, who do care and who are making any noise are the ones crying to the league office about how awful the Patriots are.

In addition, the league office is saturated with yes-men, dimwits and former Jets employees. These are the bone heads who got completely faked out by the science.

Roger Goodell is also arrogant, thin-skinned and power hungry. He probably likes to picture himself as tough judge in the old wild west.

He is always reaching to establish his authority to lay down the law. This probably looked like the perfect opportunity.

Now that Roger has come out with his decision, he takes any criticism as a personal assault.
 

Leather

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I remain convinced that the very same "Oh, Kraft has done so much for Roger, he's basically assistant Commissioner!" rationale that people thought would lead Roger to be fair and balanced in January 2015 is actually what motivated other owners, and probably Roger himself, to refrain from any defense of Kraft whatsoever.

It's not just that the Patriots were "too good", it was that Kraft was was getting "too powerful."

And it worked.

And this is not to blame Kraft, because I think he's done what he thinks is the straightforward, honorable, thing to do at every turn. But he has miscalculated and failed to act strategically going back years. He presumes that the other owners are rational actors, and they aren't. They are petty scoundrels, and more interested in achieving status in their stupid little boys club than making sound business decisions.
 

nighthob

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I don't know, I hope you're right, but I could have sworn I read several quotes months ago (maybe from Peter King?) that Goodell was getting a ton of pressure from owners behind the scenes to "not let the Patriots get off easy 'this time'." Someone wrote an article outlining how a ton of owners feel the Patriots got off easy with SpyGate and Deflategate is being viewed as a way to "make it right."
Yeah, but not all 31 owners, it said that there were some owners that were pressuring him to not back down. The clear implication is that the initial action was Goodell's. And it makes sense that the NFL office ran with Deflategate after Kensil leaked the erroneous information rather than allow the story that a league office employee was embezzling from charity get traction.
 

nighthob

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I wouldn't read too much into that. Unlike Ballghazi the CTE thing could cost the NFL more money than these guys want to contemplate so all the statements about it made by non-idiots (e.g. Goodell's recent incautious words) are going to be akin to the self-serving comments that tobacco company executives used to make concerning the links between smoking and lung cancer.
 

bankshot1

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There really is a Globe Spotlight story here waiting to be launched that will be both fascinating and damning. Someday this will all surface, and the truth will prevail.
I think to really kick the NFL in the nuts this thing has to be television documentary to connect the dots for the (largely unread) public at large.

I hope that one of Bill Simmons projects at HBO is a 30 on 30 type no holds barred expose on DFG.
 

JimD

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And this is not to blame Kraft, because I think he's done what he thinks is the straightforward, honorable, thing to do at every turn. But he has miscalculated and failed to act strategically going back years. He presumes that the other owners are rational actors, and they aren't. They are petty scoundrels, and more interested in achieving status in their stupid little boys club than making sound business decisions.
Honorable or not, I do in part blame Bob Kraft. He has miscalculated repeatedly and his feeble actions have blown up in his face at almost every turn. He backed down to the bully and Goodell has responded by pushing him around at every turn - I half expect Roger to give Bob a wedgie at the 50-yard line the next time he shows up in Foxboro. Frankly I think Kraft has come off as naive and desperate to be accepted by the Billionaires Boys Club and Joe Masshole alike. Goodell and the other owners have nothing to fear from hurting the Patriots like this and much of that is on Kraft.
 

TomTerrific

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I think to really kick the NFL in the nuts this thing has to be television documentary to connect the dots for the (largely unread) public at large.

I hope that one of Bill Simmons projects at HBO is a 30 on 30 type no holds barred expose on DFG.
Color me jaded, but I think the information is already out there, and mostly what you'd get from a 30-for-30 type expose would be a big yawn and a "Simmons is a Pats fan" reaction.

About the only thing I can think of that could ever make any kind of dent in the narrative would.be either some kind of mea culpa by a party like Pash, which is absolutely not ever going to happen, or some massive leak of internal NFL HQ memos and emails,.which has about a 0.01% chance of happening.
 

pappymojo

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Kraft also supported Goodell during that whole Ray Rice thing. There was no good reason for Kraft to do that. Goodell has been a truly shitty commissioner and in particular Roger Goodell handled the Ray Rice situation very poorly.
 

pappymojo

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I want anonymous to hack the NFL and release all the internal communications both in regards to deflategate and the ray rice video.

That would get people fired.
 

Shelterdog

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Honorable or not, I do in part blame Bob Kraft. He has miscalculated repeatedly and his feeble actions have blown up in his face at almost every turn. He backed down to the bully and Goodell has responded by pushing him around at every turn - I half expect Roger to give Bob a wedgie at the 50-yard line the next time he shows up in Foxboro. Frankly I think Kraft has come off as naive and desperate to be accepted by the Billionaires Boys Club and Joe Masshole alike. Goodell and the other owners have nothing to fear from hurting the Patriots like this and much of that is on Kraft.
His PR could have been better and maybe even if he's acted tough he might have even convinced a tough guy like you that he's a tought guy too but what course of action would have actually gotten Kraft a better result here?

I'll hang up and listen.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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I think Kraft is probably a fantastic businessman, but with regards to discipline, and dealing with the dictator he helped create, its felt very 'Starks-in-King's Landing'


Edit:because I'm an idiot.
 

bakahump

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Anonymous.... we turn our lonely eyes to you.....

Maybe they pick up the banner on CTE hack the league in an effort to find something and accidentally stumble across some DFG stuff. Ahhh if only...
 

pappymojo

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It seems like the billionaire owners of the league should be an obvious target for Anonymous. Plus, they are probably morons in regards to security.
 

dcmissle

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His PR could have been better and maybe even if he's acted tough he might have even convinced a tough guy like you that he's a tought guy too but what course of action would have actually gotten Kraft a better result here?

I'll hang up and listen.
There was no legal recourse that made sense, as we have noted again and again.

Yes, Kraft has been eaten by his own Frankenstein monster. He threw Goodell a lifeline on Ray Rice -- and the fact that Harbaugh of all people probably kicked this little episode off is a wicked irony (especially since BB was instrumental in Harbaugh getting the Ravens HC job). So that is rough Justice - a poetic kick in the ass to Bawb.

But once this got rolling, there was nothing realistically he could do.

I can't wait till this crap ends -- though next year at this time, there probably will be pathetic posts about getting the 4th round pick back.
 

bakahump

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It seems like the billionaire owners of the league should be an obvious target for Anonymous. Plus, they are probably morons in regards to security.
Please enter old Password="Password123"
Enter New Password= "RogerisGod"
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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There was no legal recourse that made sense, as we have noted again and again.
Legal recourse didn't matter.

This whole thing, from step one, has been about public perception.

Your right though, once the ball was rolling, he didn't have a chance - the problem is that by trusting the NFL's investigation, staying quiet, letting the NFL control the perception, and then basically just rolling over when he got the results, he was basically pushing it.

He learned nothing from Spygate - Goodell and the owners are a bunch of bullies - being reasonable and rational is a sign of weakness, and the same exact damn thing is going to keep happening until he figures out that he needs to get in front of this sort of stuff.
 

AB in DC

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Legal recourse didn't matter.

This whole thing, from step one, has been about public perception.

Your right though, once the ball was rolling, he didn't have a chance - the problem is that by trusting the NFL's investigation, staying quiet, letting the NFL control the perception, and then basically just rolling over when he got the results, he was basically pushing it.

He learned nothing from Spygate - Goodell and the owners are a bunch of bullies - being reasonable and rational is a sign of weakness, and the same exact damn thing is going to keep happening until he figures out that he needs to get in front of this sort of stuff.
Exactly. From the very beginning, Kraft acted like it was a load of nonsense and that any investigation would clear the Patriots of wrongdoing. Then he figured he'd just act like his usual loyal footsolider and everything would be fine. This is the kind of thing that should have been nipped in the bud from the very beginning -- by the time the Wells Report was released, it had gotten too far out of hand for anyone to address.
 

pappymojo

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I would like to know who at the NFL level is ultimately responsible for controlling the media and ESPN. The Patriots asked the NFL to issue a statement correcting the mistakes from the ESPN reports about the measurements, but the league office not only never acted on the request but instructed the Patriots not to correct the report themselves.

What asshole is responsible for that bull shit?
 

JokersWildJIMED

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The bad information concerning the PSI levels was out there and the Pats (i.e. Kraft) knew about it and did nothing. They made a tactical decision that was horrible at the time and turned out to be horrible in hindsight. Thinking that being the loyal soldiers and keeping quiet while the team, BB, and Brady get pummeled on a daily basis was beyond bad judgement.
 

scotian1

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There was no legal recourse that made sense, as we have noted again and again.

Yes, Kraft has been eaten by his own Frankenstein monster. He threw Goodell a lifeline on Ray Rice -- and the fact that Harbaugh of all people probably kicked this little episode off is a wicked irony (especially since BB was instrumental in Harbaugh getting the Ravens HC job). So that is rough Justice - a poetic kick in the ass to Bawb.

But once this got rolling, there was nothing realistically he could do.

I can't wait till this crap ends -- though next year at this time, there probably will be pathetic posts about getting the 4th round pick back.
Without a doubt, the praise that Kraft Goodell may have saved his job after the Ray Rice fiasco. He is a victim of his own creation.
 

tims4wins

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The bad information concerning the PSI levels was out there and the Pats (i.e. Kraft) knew about it and did nothing. They made a tactical decision that was horrible at the time and turned out to be horrible in hindsight. Thinking that being the loyal soldiers and keeping quiet while the team, BB, and Brady get pummeled on a daily basis was beyond bad judgement.
Well when you are instructed by the league to NOT correct it, what the hell could they do?
 

mwonow

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I want anonymous to hack the NFL and release all the internal communications both in regards to deflategate and the ray rice video.

That would get people fired.
Yeah, the IT guys

I would like to know who at the NFL level is ultimately responsible for controlling the media and ESPN. The Patriots asked the NFL to issue a statement correcting the mistakes from the ESPN reports about the measurements, but the league office not only never acted on the request but instructed the Patriots not to correct the report themselves.

What asshole is responsible for that bull shit?
I never really got this part. Given that they were being roasted, why didn't the Pats leak the truth to someone like Schefter?
 

BigJimEd

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His PR could have been better and maybe even if he's acted tough he might have even convinced a tough guy like you that he's a tought guy too but what course of action would have actually gotten Kraft a better result here?

I'll hang up and listen.
Kraft could have not called Jerry Jones and pressured him to take the crap punishment for going over the cap in an uncapped year. Jones rightfully called him out on that during this whole mess.
He also did not need to back up Goodell when he lied about the Rice incident.

Would that change things? Doubtful but it couldn't hurt.

Kraft also could have stood up during bountygate or when Vincent and Goodell were lying to Pederson.
Again these things may not have helped in DG but we would probably be much closer to Goodell being out the door or at the least his power being diminished.

That is not to say Kraft hasn't been and still is an excellent owner so let's not go there. But he's made mistakes or at least made decisions that may not have been in the best interest of the on-field product.
 

tims4wins

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As has been discussed ad nauseum, once the NFL realized that science existed, this became an exercise in the CBA - making an issue out of punishment so that the owners can get more $ at the table next window
 

CantKeepmedown

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Well when you are instructed by the league to NOT correct it, what the hell could they do?
What would the extra punishment had been if they did? Another draft pick? More money? I would have done it just to see what the NFL's response would have been. Did they ever address WHY they asked the Patriots to do that?
 

garzooma

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The NFL is run like the mob, probably very few emails, just a'holes yelling at each other on pay phones. Kensil can't even read.
IANAL, but I would think that Wells would need something in writing, in case things went sideways and the NFL tried to leave him holding the bag.
 

dhappy42

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Now that Kraft has asked for the picks back and Goodell has said no, why doesn't Kraft sue based on (1) the Wells Report itself exonerates the Patriots so Goodell's penalizing the team doesn't make sense and (2) the NFL surely now has data showing that there actually is such a thing as the Ideal Gas Law. Discovery would, by itself, be a field day, showing all kind of fraud and deceit.

Asking "nicely" provides Kraft with the perfect, "you made me do it" excuse and instantly restores his reputation in NE. What does Kraft stand to lose, his "friendship" with the other members of the NFL's billionaire's club? They're the one's who stuck it to him in the first place.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Now that Kraft has asked for the picks back and Goodell has said no, why doesn't Kraft sue based on (1) the Wells Report itself exonerates the Patriots so Goodell's penalizing the team doesn't make sense and (2) the NFL surely now has data showing that there actually is such a thing as the Ideal Gas Law. Discovery would, by itself, be a field day, showing all kind of fraud and deceit.

Asking "nicely" provides Kraft with the perfect, "you made me do it" excuse and instantly restores his reputation in NE. What does Kraft stand to lose, his "friendship" with the other members of the NFL's billionaire's club? They're the one's who stuck it to him in the first place.
There's plenty to lose. Twenty years after the fact, we just had Jerry Jones admit that the other owners went against the Raiders moving to LA because Al Davis sued the league. There will be a time in the future that Jonathan will not want that kid of thing hanging over his head every time he tries to get something done or sits down at the owners meeting table.
 

dhappy42

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There's plenty to lose. Twenty years after the fact, we just had Jerry Jones admit that the other owners went against the Raiders moving to LA because Al Davis sued the league. There will be a time in the future that Jonathan will not want that kid of thing hanging over his head every time he tries to get something done or sits down at the owners meeting table.
Good point, but I thought Jonathan was the one with the fire in his belly. Besides, the Patriots aren't moving anywhere. And this isn't quite like the David/Rozelle thing in that nearly everyone involved -- even the other owners -- know that Goodell screwed this up. They just differ about how he screwed it up. There's more of a "you could be next" situation in this than there was with Al Davis.
 

Harry Hooper

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There's plenty to lose. Twenty years after the fact, we just had Jerry Jones admit that the other owners went against the Raiders moving to LA because Al Davis sued the league. There will be a time in the future that Jonathan will not want that kid of thing hanging over his head every time he tries to get something done or sits down at the owners meeting table.
That was McNair, the other NFL owner in Texas. I don't find your argument persuasive, however, since the Pats have now entered "repeat offender" status and the next penalty is going to be even worse. The only viable strategy was to make this whole thing as painful for the NFL as possible. Had to let Roger & Co. know that the next time they wanted to zap the Pats, it was going to require a huge investment of time, personnel, and energy as there would be heavy resistance at every turn. Making them ask "Is this really going to be worth it?" was the only way to limit the incompetence and vindictive mischief down the line.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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You're right, McNair who wasnt even an owner when it happened. And the NFL expended huge amounts of time, personnel, energy and money to see this through. If you think they would have cowered to a Kraft lawsuit, I think you massively underestimate the collective power trip of Goodell and his minions.

There was never a viable option. And the "it could be us next" line of thought is a pipe dream. The egos and pettiness of the boys club of NFL owners is far too strong for that.

The sooner you guys come to grips on all that the better for you. And for all of us to stop listening to the incessant whining about it.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Sorry for the "whining." Thought this thread was about Deflategate.
Rehashing stances like how disappointed one is in Kraft for not suing the league - when it wouldn't have done anything positive, wouldn't have accomplished anything, would have done huge damage to him personally and his team's future, etc etc etc - is, yes, whining. Whatever thread you want to park that in.

It was never a viable option, as has been discussed ad nauseam here and from external legal experts dozens of times over. And it never would have gotten anything back.
 

Harry Hooper

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You're right, McNair who wasnt even an owner when it happened. And the NFL expended huge amounts of time, personnel, energy and money to see this through. If you think they would have cowered to a Kraft lawsuit, I think you massively underestimate the collective power trip of Goodell and his minions.

There was never a viable option. And the "it could be us next" line of thought is a pipe dream. The egos and pettiness of the boys club of NFL owners is far too strong for that.

The sooner you guys come to grips on all that the better for you. And for all of us to stop listening to the incessant whining about it.
You missed the whole point. It wasn't about winning this round but limiting how many rounds you'd have to play in the future. Rounds that you are highly likely to lose.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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You missed the whole point. It wasn't about winning this round but limiting how many rounds you'd have to play in the future. Rounds that you are highly likely to lose.
And you're missing the point that it wouldn't have accomplished that and in fact would have worsened future rounds, while probably increasing the odds of them existing.

In no world was the NFL backing down if Kraft sued. Have you watched Goodell at all? I mean seriously, this is the guy still appealing Brady in court. And you honestly think that if Kraft filed a frivolous lawsuit he had no chance of winning, the league and the other owners would have just kowtowed to him? And dared not cross him again? Come on dude.
 

dhappy42

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Rehashing stances like how disappointed one is in Kraft for not suing the league - when it wouldn't have done anything positive, wouldn't have accomplished anything, would have done huge damage to him personally and his team's future, etc etc etc - is, yes, whining. Whatever thread you want to park that in.
"Rehashing?" I didn't hash it the first time. In fact, I thought suing was a bad idea then and that the "we will take our medicine, no matter how unfair it is, and hope you come to your senses re Brady's suspension" was a good gesture. Now, after Goodell's stubborn and idiotic intransigence? I'm not sure sure. As someone else here intimated, at some point, if you don't push back, you're begging to be bullied again.
 

ObstructedView

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I haven't seen it discussed anywhere on the board, but the NYT has a pretty devastating piece this morning on the league's flawed "science" regarding concussion research and its apparent ties to the tobacco industry via common attorneys and lobbyists. Some of the similarities to the commissioning and execution of the Wells Report, including the obvious confirmation bias, are striking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/25/sports/football/nfl-concussion-research-tobacco.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
 

Average Reds

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Good point, but I thought Jonathan was the one with the fire in his belly. Besides, the Patriots aren't moving anywhere. And this isn't quite like the David/Rozelle thing in that nearly everyone involved -- even the other owners -- know that Goodell screwed this up. They just differ about how he screwed it up. There's more of a "you could be next" situation in this than there was with Al Davis.
How many owners are up in arms about how the Saints were completely disembowled as an organization for a bounty scandal that we now know didn't really happen?

The Pats got screwed and outside of New England fans, no one - not a single causal fan and most certainly not the owners who have been getting their teeth kicked in for years - cares. People here really need to move on.
 

peritas

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An interesting article in the ny times this morning exposing the NFL studies on concussions. The basic argument is that the NFL used junk science, packaged as being rigorous, to argue that the concussion problem was not so serious. No big surprise there.

But what was really interesting is that the article says that certain individuals with ties to the tobacco industry's attempts to mislead the American public were also involved in this study. Even more interestingly the article states that certain unnamed consultants were used in the NFL study that had also been used in the tobacco study.

Do we have a pattern here? Wasn't the consultant used by the NFL in the Wells report also an consultant to the tobacco industry? Would love to know if an overlap exists. Is this a smoking gun? A pattern of manipulating science to get the result the league wants?
 

BigSoxFan

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Yes, Exponent is a hack organization that is used to provide reports that are beneficial to the clients. At the end of the day, nothing changes the narrative unless some kind of smoking gun is found. And that really would have to come in the form similar to the Sony email leak.

Kraft could have handled better but he had zero options. If Jonathan Kraft were in charge, it probably would have greatly escalated since he is apparently the Sonny Corleone of the Kraft family.
 

Bleedred

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This league is a cesspool of syphilitic owners fiercely guarding their profit margins at the expense of truth, integrity and the health of the people they employ. It reinforces my determination to wave good-bye to the league once Brady and Bellichick retire (and yes, I recognize that this is an empty gesture).
 

Van Everyman

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So during the period that Steve Young and Troy Aikman suffered perhaps the most famous concussions in the history of the sport, their respective teams listed no concussions for any player in the organization. Wow.

Were this the MLBPA instead of the NFLPA, they would be all over this story, screaming from the rooftops about the tobacco connections. They would be arguing that whether the issue is CTE and concussions or the ridiculousness of the #DFG/Brady nonsense, there is a clear pattern of the league using bunk science to accumulate power and boost profits at the expense of players and their representatives.

Honestly, I still wonder why Congress hasn't inserted itself, Marciano-style, into this issue.

Edit: to be clear, "this issue" being concussions
 
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