Jacksonity......or the Knick thread

[Stu Nahan]

Terrible loss by the Knicks tonight. It was curious that Woodson kept Melo and Chandler on the bench throughout the fourth quarter even after the Knicks had cut into the Cavs lead and gotten it down to single digits. I can't understand why but maybe they are content to take their chances against Miami or Chicago in round 1.

 

[jon abbey]

Melo/Chandler/Shumpert have been playing huge minutes at peak effort pretty much every game lately, this was only the second dud of Woodson's 21 games (@TOR was the other). They need the Amare that was emerging just before he got hurt to match up with Bosh or Boozer to have any chance to compete with either of those teams, but man was he a sieve in the middle in his first game back tonight. NY got outrebounded 52-32 tonight, and that was Cleveland, not Chicago (shudder).

Three more games to get back in a groove, though. NY had the third best record in the league over the last 20 games coming into tonight at 15-5, with only San Antonio and Indiana ahead of them at 17-3 and 16-4. Also NY beat Indiana for 2 of those 4 losses, and they had a third game in Indiana where they were up by 15 after 3 but just couldn't finish it.

 

[jon abbey]

NY wins a squeaker in ATL with Chandler sitting out to get some rest (his first game out in months).

So NY went a remarkable 9-2 against the Eastern 3-9 seeds (IND/BOS/ATL/ORL/PHI/MIL) under Woodson.

 

[JohnnyTheBone]

So NY went a remarkable 9-2 against the Eastern 3-9 seeds (IND/BOS/ATL/ORL/PHI/MIL) under Woodson.

It's been impressive what Woodson has done. The Knicks have played hard, they've totally earned the right to get swept again in the first round.

 

[jon abbey]

They still have a small chance to make it up to the #6 seed if they win their last two and Orlando loses their last two (one of which is against Charlotte).

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Personally, I'm pulling for the Knicks to steal the 6 seed from Orlando.

I know the Knicks are becoming a popular underdog pick against Miami, but I'd much, much rather play Indiana. Nothing I saw in last Sunday's Heat-Knicks game inspired much confidence in me that the Knicks can beat the Heat in a 7 game series. I sincerely hope to be wrong about that.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Rumor today is that if the Knicks don't advance beyond round 1, Dolan will offer Phil Jackson 4 years and $50 million to lure him out of retirement. Currently, Doc Rivers' 5 year, $35 million dollar deal makes him the highest paid coach in the league.

 

[86spike]

With the way Carmelo is playing, I think the Knicks are going to give the Heat a hell of a series.

Shell of a series, maybe.

 

[RedOctober3829]

So, Amare severely cuts his hand punching a glass case after the game. NY would kill to get out of the remaining 3/65 left on his deal.

He's in a sling and thought to be in some kind of cast.

 

[86spike]

Maybe he was trying the slit his wrist and end it all.

 

[mikeford]

Amar'e Stoudamire: Injuring himself in stupid ways since 2011

 

[jon abbey]

Somehow it is Dolan's fault.

 

[AimingForYoko]

So, Amare severely cuts his hand punching a glass case after the game. NY would kill to get out of the remaining 3/65 left on his deal.

To this I say :rolling:


Although it would be funnier if it happen to Wade.

I blame Isiah.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Frankly, it's addition by subtraction. Woodson's been playing the two of them together for 30+ minutes a night, and their offensive efficiency is much, much better with Carmelo at the 4 and Amare on the bench. The only way they were going to give the Heat a tough series was by going small anyhow--Woodson didn't do it in the first two games out of, I guess, loyalty to Amare--but now he's forced to. This really should make the Knicks better, unfortunately, it's probably still not gonna be enough to avoid a sweep.

 

[TheoShmeo]

Frankly, it's addition by subtraction. Woodson's been playing the two of them together for 30+ minutes a night, and their offensive efficiency is much, much better with Carmelo at the 4 and Amare on the bench. The only way they were going to give the Heat a tough series was by going small anyhow--Woodson didn't do it in the first two games out of, I guess, loyalty to Amare--but now he's forced to. This really should make the Knicks better, unfortunately, it's probably still not gonna be enough to avoid a sweep.

I agree wholeheartedly. I was thinking before the series that the Knicks' only faint hope was an injury to Amare so that the offense could flow exclusively through Carmelo. That was a tough way to get to that result, but at least now the Knicks have some shot of winning a game or maybe even two. I doubt they will but now it's possible.

The bigger question in my book is whether Carmelo can ever prosper with another offensive force in the line-up. I see him as a classic catch 22 case of not being good enough to carry a team on his own or able to win with another elite scorer alongside him.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I agree wholeheartedly. I was thinking before the series that the Knicks' only faint hope was an injury to Amare so that the offense could flow exclusively through Carmelo. That was a tough way to get to that result, but at least now the Knicks have some shot of winning a game or maybe even two. I doubt they will but now it's possible.

The bigger question in my book is whether Carmelo can ever prosper with another offensive force in the line-up. I see him as a classic catch 22 case of not being good enough to carry a team on his own or able to win with another elite scorer alongside him.

I think it's possible, but not the way that Woodson has been going about it. He's relied too heavily on Carmelo isos. The way to do it would be to run an actual offense and use stretches of the game to go to Carmelo in isolation. It's just not sustainable to rely on one or two guys to create shots for themselves all game long. It wears Anthony down too much, and it takes your other players out of the flow of the offense. When was the last time the Knicks ran a play for Novak? When was the last time Chandler was used as the roll man in the pick and roll? Hell, when was the last time the Knicks ran a play to get Amare an open look from 15-20 feet? Knicks fans were furious with D'Antoni's failure to adapt his offense to his personnel, but Woodson's failure to adapt at all seems to be getting a free pass.

Woodson's entire offense is just ISO plays to Carmelo. There's only a single player in the NBA this season who has used a greater percentage on his possessions in isolation. And his name is JR Smith. That's Woodson's offense; ISO Carmelo, and when he's not on the floor, ISO JR Smith. And that's just not a winning strategy in this league. It's far too predictable and results in too many contested, difficult shots. Woodson needs to devise a way to create open looks for players other than Carmelo; he relies on Carmelo to play a point forward role the same way he did with Joe Johnson, but Carmelo doesn't really have that skill set. Personally, and I know I've said this to the point of it being annoying, I think this playoff series has really taken the sheen off of Woodson. He is what he's always been, clearly.

 

[Statman]

Looks like Amare is done for the series which might not be a bad thing actually. He is playing worse than Vin Baker right now.

Howard Beck ‏ @HowardBeckNYT

Just landed back in NYC. Stoudemire met w/hand specialist. No serious damage, but he's done for series, according to person w/info.

https://twitter.com/#!/HowardBeckNYT

 

[Mystic Merlin]

 

[jon abbey]

I think it's possible, but not the way that Woodson has been going about it. He's relied too heavily on Carmelo isos. The way to do it would be to run an actual offense and use stretches of the game to go to Carmelo in isolation. It's just not sustainable to rely on one or two guys to create shots for themselves all game long. It wears Anthony down too much, and it takes your other players out of the flow of the offense. When was the last time the Knicks ran a play for Novak? When was the last time Chandler was used as the roll man in the pick and roll? Hell, when was the last time the Knicks ran a play to get Amare an open look from 15-20 feet? Knicks fans were furious with D'Antoni's failure to adapt his offense to his personnel, but Woodson's failure to adapt at all seems to be getting a free pass.

Woodson's entire offense is just ISO plays to Carmelo. There's only a single player in the NBA this season who has used a greater percentage on his possessions in isolation. And his name is JR Smith. That's Woodson's offense; ISO Carmelo, and when he's not on the floor, ISO JR Smith. And that's just not a winning strategy in this league. It's far too predictable and results in too many contested, difficult shots. Woodson needs to devise a way to create open looks for players other than Carmelo; he relies on Carmelo to play a point forward role the same way he did with Joe Johnson, but Carmelo doesn't really have that skill set. Personally, and I know I've said this to the point of it being annoying, I think this playoff series has really taken the sheen off of Woodson. He is what he's always been, clearly.

None of this is wrong, but they almost literally have no point guard, and it's pretty damn difficult to run any kind of offense besides an ISO-centric one without a real PG.

 

[86spike]

That Office Space Gif is amazing

 

[Stu Nahan]

The fire extinguisher also has a Twitter account.

@AAAExtinguisher

 

[tims4wins]

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Chris Bosh may miss tonight's game to be back in Miami for the birth of his son.

 

[24JoshuaPoint]

Hahahaha love the Office Space thing.

 

[Statman]

According to the Elias Sports Bureau, Carmelo Anthony has the worst win percentage of ANY player that EVER played at least 50 playoff games (16-36, .308).

That's all I need to know about him as a so-called "superstar" player.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Well, this was probably inevitable, but it's still a short sighted, bad decision in my opinion.

http://probasketball..._medium=twitter

I think they needed to at least try to go after a Jerry Sloan, Phil Jackson, or Stan Van Gundy.

Edit: But in lieu of that, I think the Knicks should seriously consider hiring an "offensive coordinator" in much the same way they brought in Woodson to pair with D'Antoni initially. I have a feeling this will be the off-season that Brian Shaw ends up with a head coaching job, but if not bringing him in to be Woodson's top assistant and to install the triangle on offense would be a good idea.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Anytime you can play a guy who is 3-15 with 0 assists, 0 rebounds, and 0 steals for 33+ minutes, you gotta do it.

I hope to god that JR Smith opts out. The combination of him and Mike Woodson's ISO happy offense is disgusting to watch. He took twice as many shots tonight as Amare Stoudemire and Steve Novak combined. Just ugly, ugly basketball.

 

[Three10toLeft]

Amnestying Chauncey is going to look worse and worse with every passing moment this off season.

What can NY do with Amar'e? Nothing.

You're starting 5 is going to consist of Lin, Melo and Amar'e. Three of the worst defenders in the league at their respective positions.

This team will be lucky to push their next playoff matchup past 5 games, if they even get there.

 

[jon abbey]

Amnestying Chauncey is going to look worse and worse with every passing moment this off season.

Even though it got them the DPOY? I guess you mean because now they can't amnesty Amare, but it's far from clear they'd do that anyway, and Billups himself wasn't much of an asset this year, on court anyway.

But yeah, this team has essentially been fucked since LeBron turned them down. Then again, so have most other teams not named Miami or Oklahoma City.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

For the series Steve Novak, Landry Fields, and Amare Stoudemire combined to take 76 shots, shooting a combined 51%. JR Smith took 76 shots and shot 31%.

Hell of a game plan, Woody.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Billups was an asset before he got hurt - was averaging 15/2.5/4.0. Maybe his injury would have occurred with the Knicks, maybe not.

Hindsight is obviously helpful in cases like this, but I agree that the Knicks might re-think the Chandler decision if they had it to do over again.

Don't get me wrong, Tyson Chandler is a great player and was really the only consistent contributor the team had this season, but I'm not sure the Knicks foresaw the effect his arrival was going to have on Amare. He struggled as a 4 this year, and Chandler's presence only intensified the spacing issues that Carmelo and Amare cause when they're on the floor together. Incidentally, Carmelo struggled as a 3 this year. So the addition of Chandler forced the franchise's two most valuable (or at least expensive) pieces into roles in which they're less effective.

But again, I think the Knicks front office genuinely felt that Chandler was a piece that made them contenders, and as such felt that roster flexibility wasn't particularly important. I think they felt like he was the final piece in the building process, and now that that's turned out to be incorrect, have--in typical Knicks fashion--hamstrung themselves pretty badly.

As much as I love Tyson Chandler, I think I'd much prefer to be in a position where Billups, J.R. Smith, Fields, Novak, Jeffries, etc. were expiring AND they still had the amnesty in their back pocket as insurance for Amare. There's a certain point guard across the East River that I'm pretty sure they'd like the cap space to go after right now, and failing that, I'm sure they'd be happy to add New York City resident Steve Nash.

This offseason, they should try to do the following things:

1. Trade Amare. Which is to say, give him away to anybody that will take him. There will be teams with cap space that could afford to take him on and the sheer stupidity of half of the league's GM's provides a glimmer of hope that it's possible. And if they somehow do find a taker, they need to bring in a 3 who defends well to mask Carmelo's deficiency, and make Anthony a full time 4. His PER is substantially better as a 4 than as a 3, and that's just what he is now.

2. Find a real coach. Injuries or not, that Miami series was the most pathetically coached series I've ever seen. Woodson failed to make any adjustments, couldn't get Amare or the leagues best three point shooter shots, and reverted back to his old Atlanta ways of ISO after ISO. It's simply not a winning strategy in the NBA.

3. Try to trade Amare again.

But realistically, this is probably the team they're stuck with. Which is why I think the only real avenue of change involves a new coach.

 

[jon abbey]

Billups was an asset before he got hurt - was averaging 15/2.5/4.0. Maybe his injury would have occurred with the Knicks, maybe not.

He got hurt to end the previous year too, not a lot of 35 year old PGs getting big minutes in the league.

The Amare deal they should try to make is with the Nets, once Williams and Wallace opt out, for Humphries and sign and trades with JR Smith (yes, JR Smith) and Novak.

If NY really valued the cap space over Chandler, one would think they could move the reigning DPOY and open up space.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

If NY really valued the cap space over Chandler, one would think they could move the reigning DPOY and open up space.

It's not Chandler's cap space they value, it's Amare's cap space they value.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The Players Union has officially asked the league to clarify the rules pertaining to Bird Rights in the new CBA. The union is challenging the league's interpretation of the rules which states that a player loses his Bird Rights when he switches teams after being waived. It's unlikely that the league will alter the rule, but if they did it would make this off-season much simpler for the Knicks. They would then be allowed to re-sign Lin and Novak using Bird Rights which would preserve their mid-level exception.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Lamar Odom has stated that he hopes to play for the Knicks.

If his terrible year last year has driven his value so low that he's willing to take the minimum, he has the potential to be a great bench piece. Of course, at this point in his career he's pretty much strictly a 4, which creates a bit of a logjam with Amare and Carmelo, but with as little cap flexibility as the Knicks are going to have, getting a guy like Odom would be a steal.

 

[jon abbey]

The Players Union has officially asked the league to clarify the rules pertaining to Bird Rights in the new CBA. The union is challenging the league's interpretation of the rules which states that a player loses his Bird Rights when he switches teams after being waived. It's unlikely that the league will alter the rule, but if they did it would make this off-season much simpler for the Knicks. They would then be allowed to re-sign Lin and Novak using Bird Rights which would preserve their mid-level exception.

The Players Union just won this case, meaning NY can keep Lin and Novak and still get someone else with the mid-level. Amazing, rare piece of luck for this cursed franchise!!!

 

[NatetheGreat]

The Players Union just won this case, meaning NY can keep Lin and Novak and still get someone else with the mid-level. Amazing, rare piece of luck for this cursed franchise!!!

Of course, its Dolan, so they'll probably use the mid-level on Rashard Lewis or something

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Some information on Kostas Papanikolaou:

21 years old.
SF/PF for Olympiacos.

Chad Ford breakdown:

• Smart, heady forward
• High basketball IQ
• Excellent motor
• Physically tough
• Makes few mistakes on offense
• Aggressive defender
• Solid shooter with some range

• Lacks elite athleticism
• Needs to improve his 3-point shot
• May struggle to create his own shot at the next level

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keSVpQoGvnQ&feature=player_embedded

Draftexpress.com lists his best case as Omri Casspi, but that feels sort of lazy to me. Casspi is basically just a catch and shoot guy, where as Papanikolaou is a more traditional high energy, solid defender role player. He looks to be a solid rebounder (14.2 TRB% in Greek league play) and looks to be a pretty solid, not great at anything, but not bad at anything type role player. Seems like a bigger Carlos Delfino with the ceiling of maybe a Shane Battier. Battier is a better 3 point shooter, where as Papanikolaou finishes much better inside the arc, but otherwise their numbers are pretty close.

Most places are saying that if he were a certainty to come over this year, he'd have been a first round pick. All in all, to get a young player who has already been successful at the highest level in Europe in the second round is a pretty solid bargain, even if he won't help next year.

Hopefully they address some of their more immediate needs by bringing in a couple of well-regarded UFAs and maybe signing Alexey Shved, though he may command more than they can afford.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The Raptors have reached a 3 year, 20 million deal with Landry Fields.

The Knicks will have 3 days to laugh about that starting July 11.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Holy shit that's bad.

I think this may be step one in the Lin wooing process. He and Landry are good friends.

 

[Morning Woodhead]

This seems to be a way to block them from Nash. Nice move by Raptors because honestly one thing they have is money. So if it's truly NY vs. Toronto for Nash, they are all in.

 

[bbc23]

According to everyone the move was to make sure the Knicks couldn't complete a s&t for Nash and basically makes sure the Raptors are the only suitors for Nash able to offer big time money

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

This seems to be a way to block them from Nash. Nice move by Raptors because honestly one thing they have is money. So if it's truly NY vs. Toronto for Nash, they are all in.

Well, it sort of works in that regard. But realistically, it probably doesn't effect the Nash situation much. The Knicks were hopeful that Phoenix would be interested in a sign and trade involving Landry so that they could pay Nash a bit more as a result, but Phoenix never actually expressed any interest in him, as far as I know. For that scenario to work out, the Knicks would almost certainly have to include Shumpert which they've been unwilling to do up to this point. But, the Knicks could choose to include Shump, and could basically offer the rest of their roster in expiring deals and offer Nash up to 42 million. Which is about as unlikely as Phoenix taking on Landry Fields to help out the Knicks.

 

[Morning Woodhead]

Well, it sort of works in that regard. But realistically, it probably doesn't effect the Nash situation much. The Knicks were hopeful that Phoenix would be interested in a sign and trade involving Landry so that they could pay Nash a bit more as a result, but Phoenix never actually expressed any interest in him, as far as I know. For that scenario to work out, the Knicks would almost certainly have to include Shumpert which they've been unwilling to do up to this point. But, the Knicks could choose to include Shump, and could basically offer the rest of their roster in expiring deals and offer Nash up to 42 million. Which is about as unlikely as Phoenix taking on Landry Fields to help out the Knicks.

Gotcha, thanks. Either way somebody better tell Simmons because this flew right over his head!

 

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

So if Nash just says "I want to go to the Knicks, make it work," doesn't Toronto/Fields deal fall apart and we're back where we started? Its verbal only. No way they keep him at that number just to take a gun out of the Knicks' arsenal.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

So if Nash just says "I want to go to the Knicks, make it work," doesn't Toronto/Fields deal fall apart and we're back where we started? Its verbal only. No way they keep him at that number just to take a gun out of the Knicks' arsenal.

No, this is a signed offer sheet. The Knicks will have a chance to match at the end of the UFA period on July 11, but the offer sheet signed today can't be rescinded by Toronto regardless of where Nash goes.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Well, it sort of works in that regard. But realistically, it probably doesn't effect the Nash situation much. The Knicks were hopeful that Phoenix would be interested in a sign and trade involving Landry so that they could pay Nash a bit more as a result, but Phoenix never actually expressed any interest in him, as far as I know. For that scenario to work out, the Knicks would almost certainly have to include Shumpert which they've been unwilling to do up to this point. But, the Knicks could choose to include Shump, and could basically offer the rest of their roster in expiring deals and offer Nash up to 42 million. Which is about as unlikely as Phoenix taking on Landry Fields to help out the Knicks.

Not sure where you got that. All indications are the the Suns wanted Fields in the Nash trade. Wojo was among those reporting it. Of course likely what they asked for is Shumpert and Fields, since to make the salary close would take two of Fields, Shumpert, Novak, and Douglas. One of which has to be one of the restricteds (Novak or Fields). Assuming Nash gets $10M plus they need to match 7.5M, this is a nice move by Toronto because now it means a trade would need a resigned Novak at more than 5M which I don't think Phoenix has any interest in.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Not sure where you got that. All indications are the the Suns wanted Fields in the Nash trade. Wojo was among those reporting it. Of course likely what they asked for is Shumpert and Fields, since to make the salary close would take two of Fields, Shumpert, Novak, and Douglas. One of which has to be one of the restricteds (Novak or Fields). Assuming Nash gets $10M plus they need to match 7.5M, this is a nice move by Toronto because now it means a trade would need a resigned Novak at more than 5M which I don't think Phoenix has any interest in.

Oh, I see. I misread the part about one of the players in the deal having to be restricted. That makes sense.

But, because the Suns interest in Fields was only tied to his status as an RFA, and their real interest was in Shumpert (Woj also tweeted that Phoenix's draft last year came down between a choice of Shumpert or Markief Morris), the deal was unlikely to begin with. The Knicks don't want to part with Shumpert, and Fields paired with any of the other players on the Knicks roster wouldn't have gotten it done. So while yes, Phoenix blocked the possibility of the deal, the deal itself wasn't likely to begin with. They're paying huge money to eliminate the chance of Nash going to the Knicks, something which most people felt was unrealistic to begin with. It's a smart move in the sense that it increases the chances of them getting Nash, but there's plenty of reason to doubt whether the money they're paying to make that happen is a smart move.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Jeremy Lin visiting the Rockets tomorrow. Word is the Rockets intend to offer a similar deal to what Dragic turned down, which was in the ballpark of 8 million a year, but in this case, there will be an increase in the last year.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Oh, I see. I misread the part about one of the players in the deal having to be restricted. That makes sense.

But, because the Suns interest in Fields was only tied to his status as an RFA, and their real interest was in Shumpert (Woj also tweeted that Phoenix's draft last year came down between a choice of Shumpert or Markief Morris), the deal was unlikely to begin with. The Knicks don't want to part with Shumpert, and Fields paired with any of the other players on the Knicks roster wouldn't have gotten it done. So while yes, Phoenix blocked the possibility of the deal, the deal itself wasn't likely to begin with. They're paying huge money to eliminate the chance of Nash going to the Knicks, something which most people felt was unrealistic to begin with. It's a smart move in the sense that it increases the chances of them getting Nash, but there's plenty of reason to doubt whether the money they're paying to make that happen is a smart move.

I do agree, I think 4M a year might be ok for Fields, as he showed real promise early, but 6+ is a bit crazy I do wonder what happened with him, his D improved this year, but his shooting fell off a cliff. I assume at least part of that is the new slow down iso offense, if he can rebound to a high 30's 3 point shooter and continue rebounding well for a SG he could be an ok buy at 6, but the risk is pretty big, especially since they already have Derosan at SG.