I don't really think that is that absurd of a difference. Giannis gets 4 more FT attempts per game (basically two more trips to the line), that isn't that big of a difference. Giannis averages just under 16 drives per game, while Tatum averages 9 drives per game. Giannis is also the best finisher at the rim in the league, and he's known as a poor free throw shooter, so fouling him is an easy decision, which is not the case for Tatum, who is an excellent free throw shooter.Imagine if Tatum was given the same whistle as Giannis.. on either end of the floor. Giannis is getting 11 FTs a game.. you basically can’t touch him. Meanwhile guys like Hart or whatever Heat player are allowed to basically do whatever they want to Tatum, with zero calls, and he still scores. Tatum is getting 6.8 FTs per game.. it’s a pretty absurd difference. I get that Giannis drives more, but if you watch the games, you can see why Tatum gets frustrated.. he’s just not treated like the star that he is.
I like that a lot.Let me put this notion out there to see if it lands with anyone....
In thinking about Tatum might the historical comp more Tim Duncan---always great, and great at a lot of things, super consistently---than any of the various "alphas" who we typically think about (or the current ones)?
Put a different way, maybe part of Tatum's secret sauce is things that we don't always properly value - consistency and versatility. So in any given game, or stretch, he isn't the best---but across a lot of games and a lot of situations and changes, he begins to approach that level?
More athletic Paul Pierce? Maybe Pierce with a dash of KD?I’ve always hated doing comps for Tatum, because he’s incorporated so much from so many guys. But as far as what he does on the court, I see some type of hybrid between KD, Dirk, and Kawhi.
Figured that was the case. I’ll take best player on the Championship winner plus All NBA. Fingers crossed that that is his path this season.I could not care any less about him winning MVP lol. First team all nba for the third straight year will make a statement, as it’s pretty rare.
I fully expect him to have a monster playoffs, this whole regular season has been everyone figuring out their fit off of Tatum, and the playoff is where that will really show. ECF/Finals MVP over regular season, all day.
yeah, I don't really agree with the Carmelo comp - Tatum is a vastly better, and more versatile defender and also a better teammate and more diverse offensive player (primarily because of volume of 3 balls, but also significantly better passer). I get the stats match fairly well, but the on court and approach feel significantly different to me.More athletic Paul Pierce? Maybe Pierce with a dash of KD?
The first two names that come to mind, for me, are Pierce and pre-injury Paul George...but he's better than both of them. Third is KD.
EDIT: I just looked at BBRef and the top similarity score I like...Carmelo Anthony. Melo with less selfishness and much better defense (probably not as good of a 1 on 1 scorer as Melo but it's very close)
#2 is Cincinnatus Powell ("The Big C") shocked that that comparison hasn't been brought up here yet
Tatum does so much more screening and offball on offense, and that's enabled by his versatile scoring. At some point Thinking Basketball or JJ will make a video about it, everyone will have a mental hook to hang it on, and his perceived value will go a lot higher than that of Carmelo types.yeah, I don't really agree with the Carmelo comp - Tatum is a vastly better, and more versatile defender and also a better teammate and more diverse offensive player (primarily because of volume of 3 balls, but also significantly better passer). I get the stats match fairly well, but the on court and approach feel significantly different to me.
I've always wondered if George's knee injury robbed him of some of his ceiling. The year before he got hurt he was 23 and was 1st team all defense, 3rd team all-nba...he seemed to bounce back ok, but it feels like it took him 5 years to really catch up to his previous trajectory. 2019 in OKC, he was really as good as Tatum has ever been - he averaged 28/8/4 and lead the league in steals, 1st team all-nba and 1st team all-defense, and was 3rd in the MVP voting. He's spent a significant amount of time injured since then, and obviously he's the clear #2 behind Kawhi while Tatum has been the unquestioned leader of the Celtics since he was 21.The PG comps used to make more sense, but Tatum has leveled above that at this point. Tatum also much different in that he goes to the rim way more, and is miles ahead as a finisher. Even before the injury, PG was a 55% TS guy, which for the time wasn’t too bad, but still gets dinged for it.
He will never be as efficient as Durant, but he’s similar in what he forces defenses to do. He’s a better rebounder than any of them, and only Kawhi (who was the best wing defender I’ve seen) could lock guys up to the extent that Tatum has shown capable. PG was more of a team defense menace who wreaked havoc in the passing lanes.
It’s why I hate doing comps so much, especially as Tatum is pretty unique.
Yeah, Tatum is a lot more of an overall offensive player than Melo was. Melo had a really hard time adjusting to not being the top option on offense in a way Tatum never would. Tatum is already a much better (and willing) passer than Melo, and as you mentioned, he is a WAY more active screener than Melo, who basically never set screens during his prime.Tatum does so much more screening and offball on offense, and that's enabled by his versatile scoring. At some point Thinking Basketball or JJ will make a video about it, everyone will have a mental hook to hang it on, and his perceived value will go a lot higher than that of Carmelo types.
The demands of the position have changed slightly, but beyond era adjustments, Melo was one of the least impactful superstars in recent history. 19 years in the NBA, 10 all-stars, 6 all-NBA, top 75 player...and only won three playoff series in his entire career (and just a single playoff series win after age 24). Tatum had that many playoff series wins by age 20. Even if their games have some similarities, their on-court impact is miles apart.Yeah, Tatum is a lot more of an overall offensive player than Melo was. Melo had a really hard time adjusting to not being the top option on offense in a way Tatum never would. Tatum is already a much better (and willing) passer than Melo, and as you mentioned, he is a WAY more active screener than Melo, who basically never set screens during his prime.
To be fair to Melo, and a good reason why comps are never perfect, Melo played in a different era, one that was undoubtedly less advanced in terms of what players were asked to do offensively. Melo didn't set a lot of screens or playmake a ton because scorings wings during his prime were rarely asked to do those things. If Tatum played in that era, there is a very good chance he wouldn't be nearly as advanced in those regards as he is today.
Completely agree. This is why I specified pre-injury PG.I've always wondered if George's knee injury robbed him of some of his ceiling. The year before he got hurt he was 23 and was 1st team all defense, 3rd team all-nba...he seemed to bounce back ok, but it feels like it took him 5 years to really catch up to his previous trajectory. 2019 in OKC, he was really as good as Tatum has ever been - he averaged 28/8/4 and lead the league in steals, 1st team all-nba and 1st team all-defense, and was 3rd in the MVP voting. He's spent a significant amount of time injured since then, and obviously he's the clear #2 behind Kawhi while Tatum has been the unquestioned leader of the Celtics since he was 21.
Tatum's offense probably ends up a bit more developed regardless, but George was always a slightly better defender. No comp is perfect, but that one feels more natural than most.
It's true that Melo might have been better in a different period---he was a really skilled scorer.Yeah, Tatum is a lot more of an overall offensive player than Melo was. Melo had a really hard time adjusting to not being the top option on offense in a way Tatum never would. Tatum is already a much better (and willing) passer than Melo, and as you mentioned, he is a WAY more active screener than Melo, who basically never set screens during his prime.
To be fair to Melo, and a good reason why comps are never perfect, Melo played in a different era, one that was undoubtedly less advanced in terms of what players were asked to do offensively. Melo didn't set a lot of screens or playmake a ton because scorings wings during his prime were rarely asked to do those things. If Tatum played in that era, there is a very good chance he wouldn't be nearly as advanced in those regards as he is today.
Yup, that is the problem with comparing players across different eras, even ones that are not that far apart like Melo and Tatum. The playmaking is a huge difference, and I'm not sure how much of it was Melo's fault versus how different scoring wings are asked to play today (and in general, the average player today is surrounded by more offensive talent than in any other period).It's true that Melo might have been better in a different period---he was a really skilled scorer.
You can apply this to a lot of guys though: Steph was lucky to be born when he was; slow-footed offensive-minded centers less so.
At 25, Tatum is already 52nd all time in playoff points with 2,236. Melo, retired, is 78th with 1,914 - three points ahead of Jaylen Brown.The demands of the position have changed slightly, but beyond era adjustments, Melo was one of the least impactful superstars in recent history. 19 years in the NBA, 10 all-stars, 6 all-NBA, top 75 player...and only won three playoff series in his entire career (and just a single playoff series win after age 24). Tatum had that many playoff series wins by age 20. Even if their games have some similarities, their on-court impact is miles apart.
I mean, do you think that's less true for other MVP contenders? i.e., that Jokic or SGA or whoever couldn't score a few more PPG if they really decided to, to the exclusion of "making the right play" and optimizing the team's offense? I feel like every star, more or less, is compromising their own counting stats for the sake of team success. To think otherwise (other than very marginal differences) would seem to require some pretty green-tinted glasses.If Tatum upped his selfishness just a tad and say, averaged 32 ppg, he would be in the MVP conversation. The Celtics would still be in first place, probably, but they would be marginally worse and maybe players like White, KP and Jrue wouldn't feel as empowered. It's dumb he isn't at least getting mentioned as a potential Top 3 finisher.
I completely agree with you, but I think the depth of the Celts hurts Tatum here. They have so many guys who can score.I mean, do you think that's less true for other MVP contenders? i.e., that Jokic or SGA or whoever couldn't score a few more PPG if they really decided to, to the exclusion of "making the right play" and optimizing the team's offense? I feel like every star, more or less, is compromising their own counting stats for the sake of team success. To think otherwise (other than very marginal differences) would seem to require some pretty green-tinted glasses.
I think it's not really about being selfish, rather, I think Jokic, SGA, and Luka all play in systems in which the offense is designed to play through them. If Tatum played on a team like that he'd have better offensive numbers, but it would probably hurt his defense, and he's probably not as gifted of a scorer as Luka or SGA.I mean, do you think that's less true for other MVP contenders? i.e., that Jokic or SGA or whoever couldn't score a few more PPG if they really decided to, to the exclusion of "making the right play" and optimizing the team's offense? I feel like every star, more or less, is compromising their own counting stats for the sake of team success. To think otherwise (other than very marginal differences) would seem to require some pretty green-tinted glasses.
I'm no expert on this matter, but from rough eye test it seems like Tatum has much less chance to be able to dribble for an extended amount of time compared to say two years ago. It always seems like stars need to be able to hold on to the ball for a bit in order to get into rhythm, and this years C's we always have so many shot-creators and capable ball-handlers/initiators on the floor that it should be harder for the Jays to be get into rhythm than other stars. (That was my biggest worry coming into the season, together with Zinger's health)I mean, do you think that's less true for other MVP contenders? i.e., that Jokic or SGA or whoever couldn't score a few more PPG if they really decided to, to the exclusion of "making the right play" and optimizing the team's offense? I feel like every star, more or less, is compromising their own counting stats for the sake of team success. To think otherwise (other than very marginal differences) would seem to require some pretty green-tinted glasses.
It helps and it hurts. If the team were worse, Tatum's counting stats would likely be higher, but if the Celtics were one of the six teams with 37-41 wins (instead of sailing comfortably ahead of the pack with 46 wins), I doubt he'd be seriously in the MVP discussion either. He's obviously in the neighborhood of MVP (he's gonna make 1st team all-NBA for the 3rd straight year and he's by far the best player on by far the best team), anyone who denies that just isn't thinking. At the same time he's 100% not winning, so at the end of the day, does it matter? Even people arguing for his inclusion in the discussion would probably agree that Jokic is the guy anyway.I completely agree with you, but I think the depth of the Celts hurts Tatum here. They have so many guys who can score.
The Celtics offense is designed to play through Tatum too. The Celtics just have the best 2-6 in the NBA so they don’t rely on him as much as other superstarsI think it's not really about being selfish, rather, I think Jokic, SGA, and Luka all play in systems in which the offense is designed to play through them. If Tatum played on a team like that he'd have better offensive numbers, but it would probably hurt his defense, and he's probably not as gifted of a scorer as Luka or SGA.
Tatum is the perfect fit for this team. He's a superstar who can do the little things and he's an excellent and versatile defender.
Could he win an MVP? Yeah, I think so. Should he win it this year? Probably not.
Yeah.. I think the counting stats for the others are higher mainly because they don't have the team that surrounds them like Tatum does. At the end of the day I'm pretty sure Tatum cares a lot more about winning a championship than an MVP...because he talks about winning almost all of the time.The Celtics offense is designed to play through Tatum too. The Celtics just have the best 2-6 in the NBA so they don’t rely on him as much as other superstars
This might be true now, but as he was establishing himself as a player I think the individual accolades did matter a lot to him. All Star, First Team NBA, etc.Yeah.. I think the counting stats for the others are higher mainly because they don't have the team that surrounds them like Tatum does. At the end of the day I'm pretty sure Tatum cares a lot more about winning a championship than an MVP...because he talks about winning almost all of the time.
It seemed to me that the huge backlash he got from losing the Finals in 2022 affected him a lot, and made him realize that, for him in particular, winning is the only thing that will give him the validation he clearly needs.This might be true now, but as he was establishing himself as a player I think the individual accolades did matter a lot to him. All Star, First Team NBA, etc.
They are not mutually exclusive. Any player who tells you that winning the MVP isn't super important is flat out lying. Mazzulla knows how important it is to him as well or he wouldn't have reinserted Tatum into a 20-pt game w 7 min to go. Tatum knew he had only a couple minutes to add some numbers which is why his number was called on each of the next 4 possessions. This has been a common theme all year and there is nothing wrong with a star player wanting to win the MVP as that's one of the carrots that drive a player.Yeah.. I think the counting stats for the others are higher mainly because they don't have the team that surrounds them like Tatum does. At the end of the day I'm pretty sure Tatum cares a lot more about winning a championship than an MVP...because he talks about winning almost all of the time.
Excluding players that didn't go to college (i.e. guys that had an extra year to put up numbers), only Durant and Melo were more productive to start their careers.Fun article showing where JT ranks all-time before age-26 stats: https://www.nbcsportsboston.com/nba/boston-celtics/where-celtics-jayson-tatum-ranks-all-time-greats-26th-birthday/591764/?partner=yahoo&cid=yahoo
Also shows how amazing LBJ has been.
All of these scoring total stats are so skewed in favor of recent players. Maybe it is the Moneyball world, but probably just the access to stats we all have, but scoring totals were never seen as a measure of who was the best player until recently.Unfortunately, he is no longer 19
Friday was Jayson Tatum's final game as 25-year old. He finishes with the 6th-most points in NBA history at age-25 or younger, one spot behind his idol Kobe Bryant.
Most Points at Age-25 or Younger
NBA History
LeBron James 16,081
Kevin Durant 14,851
Carmelo Anthony 12,711
Tracy McGrady 12,423
Kobe Bryant 12,215
Jayson Tatum 11,381
Incredibly pathetic game. Just an awful, awful performance.He's had an excellent season and has as good an argument as any to be the 3rd best player in the league behind Giannis/Jokic, but tonight's game against Denver (just 5-13 for 15 points and 5 turnovers, including missing a wide open corner 3 that could've given Boston the lead with under a minute) absolutely killed his MVP chances, slim as they were to begin with.
Not really game thready. He has these weird lapses where it looks like his mind is elsewhere. We know what he’s capable of and we won’t hang another banner until we see the good version when it counts.Incredibly pathetic game. Just an awful, awful performance.
Denver blitzed him a lot and he had no answer. Looked completely lost.
Everyone else on the Celtics came to play, and Tatum completely shat the bed.
I'm a big Tatum guy and defend him a lot, but that's the kind of performance that will have me nervous in big games in the playoffs. He's absolutely capable of being the 5th or 6th best player for a multi-game playoff stretch. You can't say that about Jokic or Giannis.
(a bit game-thready, but fuck it)
It sucks even more because the rest of the team came to play They were making lots of mistakes, missed shots, free throws, letting Jokic score, but JB, Holiday KP, DWhite were there to try to win. Tatum felt checked out on both ends.Not really game thready. He has these weird lapses where it looks like his mind is elsewhere. We know what he’s capable of and we won’t hang another banner until we see the good version when it counts.
So when he gets blitzed and passes out of it he’s not aggressive enough, but when he holds the ball and is aggressive he’s labeled as playing hero ball. In a lot of eyes, it seems Tatum just can’t win unless he plays perfect offense. I have more of a concern on defense with him tonight.It sucks even more because the rest of the team came to play They were making lots of mistakes, missed shots, free throws, letting Jokic score, but JB, Holiday KP, DWhite were there to try to win. Tatum felt checked out on both ends.
I’m sorry but I have to push back on this.So when he gets blitzed and passes out of it he’s not aggressive enough, but when he holds the ball and is aggressive he’s labeled as playing hero ball. In a lot of eyes, it seems Tatum just can’t win unless he plays perfect offense. I have more of a concern on defense with him tonight.
Would be really funny to see the takes on JT if he makes the corner 3 to give them the lead. Mind you there’s still :40 left so plenty of time to blame him for a loss too.
I'm usually accused of being too supportive of Tatum here. I know what he does well. He wasn't doing it.So when he gets blitzed and passes out of it he’s not aggressive enough, but when he holds the ball and is aggressive he’s labeled as playing hero ball. In a lot of eyes, it seems Tatum just can’t win unless he plays perfect offense. I have more of a concern on defense with him tonight.
Would be really funny to see the takes on JT if he makes the corner 3 to give them the lead. Mind you there’s still :40 left so plenty of time to blame him for a loss too.
Relax dude. I wasn’t specifically going after the poster. I’m going after the constant referendums on Tatum after every game like this. Seems like no player in the NBA is judged like he is.I’m sorry but I have to push back on this.
@lovegtm is a Tatum fan. He’s posted multiple times about the gravity Tatum has and how it’s close to prime Curry.
He commented on his opinion of how Tatum played this game. I don’t like to see him painted like some sort of negative Tatum opportunist like this seems to be doing.
EDIT: and he obviously doesn’t need me to stick up for him. I just don’t like when anyone on this board posts anything reasonable and they are painted like extremists.
It's fine, and I agree he's subject to those constant referenda.Relax dude. I wasn’t specifically going after the poster. I’m going after the constant referendums on Tatum after every game like this. Seems like no player in the NBA is judged like he is.