From what I remember, the infancy of defensive metrics had Nomar as a good fielding shortstop as recently as 2003 but the Achilles injury in spring 2004 caused his range to crater that season.
Just how good was Nomar Garciaparra?
- Thread starter BaseballJones
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I mean, we all saw the SI cover. And the time period...I don’t care one way or the other. Barry Bonds is far an away my favorite player of all-time. He has seemed to escape heat during that era
IIRC the trade also involved at least a media/fan hullabaloo around the whole 'Jeter-dives-into-the-stands-while-Nomar-refuses-to-play' event from July 1.
I don't think they win if they don't make the trade, and it still makes me feel awful that they had to do it. Nomar was a glorious and unique player. I thought he'd be in the Hall in a Red Sox uniform around now.
I don't think they win if they don't make the trade, and it still makes me feel awful that they had to do it. Nomar was a glorious and unique player. I thought he'd be in the Hall in a Red Sox uniform around now.
Defensively, my memory of Nomar was that he had amazing range, and a strong arm, but so much confidence in those two things that he almost never put a ball in his pocket, leading to all kinds of terrible throws. He could get a glove on almost anything, especially early in in career, and as a result he racked up a ton of throwing errors because he was always trying to make an out, even when everyone else know that he wasn't going to get the runner at first (sometimes leading to a runner on second). I don't think I would teach a kid fundamentals by having them watch videos of Nomar in the field, but I would absolutely show that kid videos of Nomar in the field to teach them how to find joy in playing the game.
Huh, it’s crazy that that game was only on July 1st, because I always had that in my head as the real “end of Nomar” moment.
But he played in 21 of 25 games in July and was a beast. He hit .386/.438/.591 with 4 homers, 4 doubles, and a triple.
They basically traded their hottest hitter for a guy with a 62 OPS+. And we were all like… “yup, had to happen.” Wild.
I actually remember Nomar’s hot streak that July as being one of the reasons I was so shocked. It was shocking anyway but then you start running through the reasons in your head and say “it’s not like he was slumping either, he was tearing the cover off the ball”.
But I still agree with you the general vibe around him changed after the slew of negative press surrounding the Jeter-in-the-stands game.
What's wild is that he never played anything approaching a full season after 2003 (468 games total) and only played 99 games at SS after leaving Boston, the remainder mostly at 1B/3B.
Had a brief flash of his old self in 2006 while with the Dodgers (.303/.367/.505 with 20hrs in 122 games) but then couldn't stay on the field and lost whatever remaining pop was left in his bat.
Had a brief flash of his old self in 2006 while with the Dodgers (.303/.367/.505 with 20hrs in 122 games) but then couldn't stay on the field and lost whatever remaining pop was left in his bat.
Also the general public was less sympathetic to players making contract demands in those days. Nomar was disappointed that the Sox were lowballing him compared to A-Rod & Jeter's extensions and Henry et al had no problem leaking their side of the story to the press. I think today the tide wouldn't have turned so quickly against him.
I remember a Bill Simmons premature epitaph of Pedro in early 2002 where he described Pedro as a “shooting star”.
I actually think Nomar would qualify more for that phrase. Peak Nomar was so bright that he was right next to the best HOFers for those brief few years 1998-2000. But he never could sustain it as the injuries started to take a toll on his natural gifts…he had the attempt at returning to that glory in 2002 and 2003 but just never could quite get back to that truly elite pedestal as a hitter he was on at the peak.
Then as you say above, he faded fairly quickly after he left Boston…just that mini-curtain call in 2006 with LAD to remind everyone how bright he once burned as a star those few years. Just like a shooting star.
My memory is a little fuzzy but wasn’t Nomar sitting a lot of games, and suggesting he’d need even more time off down the stretch? Seems like he was mad about the aborted A-Rod deal, defense as a fatal flaw….yada yada yada.
I remember Gammons looking back at that season and how the Sox were 56-46 on 7/31 (Nomar got traded at the deadline) and went on a 42-18 tear to finish the season.
Before the wrist injury he was a lock HoFer. He hit fucking rockets.
And let's us remember that MFY fans only comeback to "The Debate" was "rings".
And let's us remember that MFY fans only comeback to "The Debate" was "rings".
It was that weird unexplained achilles injury that did him in once and for all. I know others pointed out his decline after the wrist injury, but he was still playing full seasons and putting up excellent numbers. He spent so much of the WS season injured, despite the good (short season) numbers, Theo had to know what was up. God forbid we ended up in a Saberhagen situation all over again.
It wasn't just OCab but also Alphabet coming in in late innings and just being absolute studs on defense.. at least as I recall. With their bullpen and late inning switches for defense the Sox got leads and just didn't give them up. (I haven't looked at stats or looked at game logs, but that's my memory of the end of the season and the playoffs of 2004).
In his 6 full seasons w/ the Sox he had almost 200 hits each of those full seasons. I was certain he'd maintain that greatness and easily eclipse 3,000 hits. I felt a similar way with Pedroia.
I still frequently shout Nomar's better at MFY fans. Yes, I'm that guy. No regrets.
I still frequently shout Nomar's better at MFY fans. Yes, I'm that guy. No regrets.
Looking at Nomar’s BR page because of this thread and you could have given me probably unlimited guesses without me coming up with BOS’s #3 hitter in the 2003 postseason, behind Damon/Nomar and ahead of Manny/Ortiz.
Someone remind me why, maybe because he was a lefty and that lineup was so good 1-9 it didn’t matter?
Todd Walker
Someone remind me why, maybe because he was a lefty and that lineup was so good 1-9 it didn’t matter?
I believe he tied or maybe set the Sox single season postseason record at the time with 5 HRs. He hit 2nd most of the regular season, not sure why they changed it in the playoffs, though it looks like he went back to 2nd for most of the ALCS after hitting 3rd in the ALDS.
I seem to recall some speculation/conjecture at the time that the Achilles injury may have occurred while he was playing soccer, which was prohibited by the terms of his contract. A quick Google search didn't help....anyone else remember hearing this?
Going into the "WayBack" Machine. I was a season ticket holder for the Sarasota RedSox in the early 90's ($99.00) Can't go wrong.
I remember Normars 1st game and got there early for batting/fielding practice and couldn't believe how smooth he was. I knew from then he was something special. Smiling and laughing/joking with the other guys.
I remember Normars 1st game and got there early for batting/fielding practice and couldn't believe how smooth he was. I knew from then he was something special. Smiling and laughing/joking with the other guys.
I was a HUGE John Valentin fan at the time and while I loved Nomar, I always had this little tug that Valentin never got the recognition he deserved and it was Nomar's fault. After reading through this thread, I checked them and Valentin's best bWAR (1995) was 8.5 and Nomar's (2000) was 7.4. I feel a little bit justified.
And, for the record, my other favorite SS, Rico, has a bWAR of 10.0 in 1969, the ninth best season in Red Sox history and right up there with Williams, Yaz, and Speaker.
I'll give you that Nomar had more of those peak years than Valentin and Rico but Valentin and Rico still give me the warm fuzzies. Nomar, not so much.
And, for the record, my other favorite SS, Rico, has a bWAR of 10.0 in 1969, the ninth best season in Red Sox history and right up there with Williams, Yaz, and Speaker.
I'll give you that Nomar had more of those peak years than Valentin and Rico but Valentin and Rico still give me the warm fuzzies. Nomar, not so much.
Circumstantial, but Nomar had injuries after the trade that were essentially pulling tendons off of long bones. That can happen when a steroid enlarged muscle simply overpowers the structural strength of the original tendon.
Had Nomar continued raking at his 2002/03 clip for several more seasons, he would have been a lock HoF'er. But I agree those seasons were nowhere close to his pre-HBP peak. My recollection is that the Boston media was absolutely brutal to him after he got upset that he was included in the Manny/A-Rod trade talks*. Shank hated him as did others for some reason.
There were some signs of a potential decline late in 2023: he had a brutal September (0.599 OPS) in the Sox playoff drive, and was relatively quiet in the playoffs (2 XBH and no homers in 49 playoff at-bats). Could be statistical noise, but still makes me wonder if his body was starting to break down. Anyway, my favorite player of that era next Pedro.
One interesting story I heard about the Nomar/O-Cab trade was that the Twins were supposed to get a minor league prospect from the Sox but failed to include his name in the paperwork submitted to the league.
*: IIRC, Nomar (and a pitching prospect named Jon Lester) would have been sent to the White Sox for Magglio Ordonez.
There were some signs of a potential decline late in 2023: he had a brutal September (0.599 OPS) in the Sox playoff drive, and was relatively quiet in the playoffs (2 XBH and no homers in 49 playoff at-bats). Could be statistical noise, but still makes me wonder if his body was starting to break down. Anyway, my favorite player of that era next Pedro.
One interesting story I heard about the Nomar/O-Cab trade was that the Twins were supposed to get a minor league prospect from the Sox but failed to include his name in the paperwork submitted to the league.
*: IIRC, Nomar (and a pitching prospect named Jon Lester) would have been sent to the White Sox for Magglio Ordonez.
Still probably my favorite Sox player of all time. He and Pedro were instrumental in me becoming a Sox fan again, after not paying any attention from 87-97.
I wonder how peak Nomar would go with today’s pitching/batting clock
I wonder how peak Nomar would go with today’s pitching/batting clock
Manny would have gone to TX. It was actually a 3-way trade (although I'm not sure if anyone was going from TX to CHI).
Wasn't OCab said to have developed a little too much chemistry with certain people?
I thought Pedro lived in Brookline. But yeah that's the rumor I heard as well. No idea of the veracity.
On April 20, 2003 (the day before Patriots Day), Nomar hit a walk off home run to beat the Blue Jays. My daughters were at the game, the younger one (who was 7 at the time) was pleading for Nomar to hit a home run so she could leave the game. We were all ecstatic, but none more than Meghan, because she could finally leave the game. Both daughters became huge Nomar fans. We purchased a Red Sox 5 Garciaparra tee that day for Beth, Meghan's older sister. In 2005, my sister and brother in law visit Chicago and go to a Cubs game. They come home with a Cubs 5 Garciaparra tee for Beth. Now, she has a Cub's 5 and Red Sox 5 Garciaparra tee.
In 2006, my sister and brother in law take my two daughters to Florida for a week to visit my parents. My parents lived in Vero Beach. In 2006 the Dodgers still trained at Dodgertown in Vero Beach. The girls went to a spring training game, Beth wearing the Cub's 5 and Meghan wearing the Sox 5 tee. A member of the media relations team saw them and asked if they would like meet Nomar. When the "meeting" happened, it was actually a commercial for the LA TV station who televises the Dodgers. On a commercial, Nomar handed each of them a new Dodger's Garciaparra tee. It was very cool when they called home and said "Dad, we are in a commercial with Nomar." (Side note - he didn't really interact with them other than on the camera....which kind of sucks.) (And I can't find the commercial anywhere on the internet)
In 2006, my sister and brother in law take my two daughters to Florida for a week to visit my parents. My parents lived in Vero Beach. In 2006 the Dodgers still trained at Dodgertown in Vero Beach. The girls went to a spring training game, Beth wearing the Cub's 5 and Meghan wearing the Sox 5 tee. A member of the media relations team saw them and asked if they would like meet Nomar. When the "meeting" happened, it was actually a commercial for the LA TV station who televises the Dodgers. On a commercial, Nomar handed each of them a new Dodger's Garciaparra tee. It was very cool when they called home and said "Dad, we are in a commercial with Nomar." (Side note - he didn't really interact with them other than on the camera....which kind of sucks.) (And I can't find the commercial anywhere on the internet)
Yeah the 2002-2003 versions of Nomar were still crazy good (had close to a 6 WAR in 2003 despite the late season slump)…they just weren’t insane like his peak seasons.
Like mentioned earlier in the thread, he did have a similar type offensive season in 2006 (122 +wRC) as well but he was playing mostly 1B by then and it was in 122 games. His body was just not able to handle a full season any longer. He got injured again in 2007 and that finished off his remaining offensive firepower. The fairly swift decline does sadden me some as I think even as recently as 2003 or preseason 2004, most of us thought he was still close to a lock for HOF or at least pretty likely. It felt safe that we’d get another 4 or 5 years of that 2002-2003 type Nomar even if he never returned to the pinnacle years. But sports always reminds us not to take things for granted.
The Achilles injury truly seems like the larger inflection point with the 1999 wrist injury being the minor inflection point. The Achilles injury is basically what ended his time as a SS even if it took 100-150 games between the 2004 Red Sox and Cubs to find out….and aside from a 3/4ths of season in 2006, it basically ended his time as a full time player too. It happened quite quickly.
Personal side note too…Nomar was the first player jersey I had. Still have it too. He was truly incredible to watch for a few years.
Sox players that only need their first name to know who we're talking about:
Pedro
Ted
Papi*
Manny
Nomar
Says all you need right there.
Pedro
Ted
Papi*
Manny
Nomar
Says all you need right there.
It's completely escaped my mind that Cabrera played 7 more years in the majors after 2004. His career was quite lengthy.
EDIT: so did Renteria. Both made it through 2011. Nomar retired after 2009.
EDIT: so did Renteria. Both made it through 2011. Nomar retired after 2009.
The 1999 Red Sox had absolute peak Pedro and peak Nomar, along with some nice complementary pieces. Too bad they couldn't do more with it that year.
IIRC, it was Nomar and Williamson for Magglio and Brandon McCarthy, Manny and Lester for A-Rod.