Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd
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A ray of hope? If this trade is voided the Celtics are going to be awful next year. IT4 is clearly damaged goods, Crowder wants no part of playing here, and the player we get with the Nets pick might be useful in 2023.
The EC is very weak. Even without IT this team has a fair chance of replicating their results from last year (making it to the EC Finals before getting destroyed by Cleveland). If the trade goes through they might have a better chance of replicating those same results. Winning a championship, or even beating a LeBron led Cleveland team, is not likely anytime soon either way.
Sure seems the price implied injury risk
If IT had no injury risk the price would be even more ludicrous
If IT had no injury risk the price would be even more ludicrous
A Lebron led team without kyrie as his pg? And with Kyrie on the other side and with Hayward? But the best they can hope for us losing in the ecf either way?
With an IT4 who has a bad hip, we're not getting anywhere near the Eastern Conference finals, especially if he insists on getting max money and then ties that slot up while he degenerates. I'm convinced now that Ainge was going to let him go, period, one way or another. Which means assets would have to be spent replacing IT4 anyway.
I guess Boston can always tell Cleveland to pound sand and then try and position themselves for a trade next summer by bundling Thomas and Nader for someone making around $12 million. Because with two top five picks in June they'll be in a position to make a run at an all star.
I think that if Cleveland changes their mind Altman might find it tough to get people to return his phone calls. The ensuing tire fire in Cleveland might be really amusing for the rest of us.
40% of us don't hate the trade, 40% said they wouldn't do it. Not everyone that is a vehemently against it as you shares that; many stated some nuance to their objection. Just as a good portion of the 60% of us that said we would do it factored in that an expected partial season of an IT that likely will never be the same player isn't as valuable as some are making it out to be, neither to the Celtics season or in trade value.
This trade, whether you liked it or not, has no positive in getting voided. If his hip is that bad, he's somewhat useless (and no, Rozier at PG isn't getting them to the ECF, unless they get the perfect slate, they wouldn't get past Washington if they had to meet them); even if he is useful, how happy do you think he's going to be to walk back in to that building? Crowder? Further, it means if they ever do want to add a third big piece, they'll have to gut the roster to do it, since a salary match like this isn't going to present itself again anytime soon.
I get you hate the deal - you've made that quite clear - but there really is no good scenario that involves this trade being rescinded. Arguing there is is purely emotional.
Well put. I never liked the trade but a broken trade will leave a lot of casualties in both Cities. Thomas almost certainly feels ill will towards Ainge and Stevens and I doubt Crowder wants a redo in Boston after the Cs essentially brought in his replacement in Hayward.
On the other side, the Cavs having to redo another trade of Irving only means they have even less leverage than before.
Essentially both teams will have to trade these guys again to other parties but this time there will be no debate who won those deals. It will be whomever acquires Irving and whomever gets Thomas and Crowder.
That said, the bad outcome for both teams scenario is why they are each incentivized to work something out. My guess is that the Cs may have to include the Memphis pick.
If the IT is out the whole playoffs it would definitely make it more interesting, but I'm just not very impressed with the Irving led Celtics team that many of your are so enamored with. I think a healthy Cavs team will easily defeat that team. I also think that if this trade goes through its likely that Cleveland ends up trading the Nets pick for an impact player that can contribute to a championship run next season.
If ITs hip is that bad, the Celtics aren't competing with them. Please expand on your worries about trading the pick for an impact player. How do you foresee them them doing this given their roster construction and cap position and who might that player be?
If - if - the Celtics have to add anything else, it should be one of their own picks, not one from Memphis or any other team likely to pick earlier in the draft than Boston.
Much as I would like to agree with you, I think the situation is only going to be resolved with the Cs giving up another true asset.
I too believe that Cleveland is ultimately going to move the BKNY pick and whatever else they get from Boston for a good veteran player.
This is almost undoubtably the case. Hey, LeBron, please stay... look we have this pick (maybe 4th or maybe 8th) in the draft and we'll develop him and he'll be really good in four years!
No, they've always intended to trade the Brooklyn pick (and whatever else they coax out of the Celtics) in order to win now. Boston is 2nd best in the EC still. For those Kyrie believers, you're hoping he stays beyond two years from now.
As someone else stated, unless Gilbert sells him the team, Lebron is gone. He's not waiting around for a The pick to mature and I sure as hell don't think that if the same package they got from
Boston can be discovered by a rookie GM sooner than it could by DA. They might reshuffle the deck chairs, but they're not a better team in 17-18 after these transactions. They lost their #2 and they're not replacing him.
Frankly if they wanted one last shot, they should have taken the Bledsoe deal from PHX. That they took this deal I think signals they realize they have a rebuild coming. Ymmv.
Boston can be discovered by a rookie GM sooner than it could by DA. They might reshuffle the deck chairs, but they're not a better team in 17-18 after these transactions. They lost their #2 and they're not replacing him.
Frankly if they wanted one last shot, they should have taken the Bledsoe deal from PHX. That they took this deal I think signals they realize they have a rebuild coming. Ymmv.
Are we really thinking that IT will be out the entire regular season and through the playoffs? That would seem like a worst case scenario. Either way, I was not arguing they could compete against Cleveland without IT, I was arguing that without IT they could still compete with the rest of the EC enough to make it to the EC Finals and get defeated by Cleveland. And that scenario - losing to Cleveland - also seems like the most likely if this trade goes through as well.
And Cleveland does have the type of contracts (Shumpert, Frye even Crowder) who could be packaged with that pick for the best available player at the deadline. Who could that be? I think it's a bit early to predict but there have been several impact players traded in the past year and it certainly would seem likely that there will be more traded in the coming year. If/when that happens Cleveland will be in the best position to make a move.
Maybe not for this season, but my objection with this trade has nothing to do with how good or bad the team would be this season. I'm of the belief that keeping the draft pick is better for the team longterm, and while the hip situation with IT is very unfortunate, and certainly if the trade is voided it hurts the team next season, that has nothing much to do with any objection to the trade that is primarily concerned with the team longterm.
Exactly.
I call gamesmanship on the Cavs part here. That's my call at this point. They knew Isaiah was damaged goods, an expiring contract who is basically done, and the plan was always to try and extract additional compensation from the Celtics be it in the form of another player or a draft pick. This could get really interesting but I don't see the trade ever being completely cancelled. Interesting that other reports at the time of the announcement stated the Cavs were waiving his physical.
The 2018 C's first is worthless. I think the deal is going to be scuttled or stay as is, because that Brooklyn pick is so valuable that I don't think the Cavs want to gamble losing it. I would have to hope that if the Cavs push for Tatum or the Lakers/Kings pick that the C's would say no.
Shawnrbu wins Nostradamus award for this thread. Sam Ray Not gets honorable mention.
Only the Cavs owners can take a trade they are getting lauded for in many quarters and potentially scuttling it.
I think most thought so much was included other than IT because of how bad his hip was. I think most have thought the pick was always the centerpiece of this trade.
Lol no shit right? I was just saying this. So bizarre and yes exactly. This is Koby Altman's first deal as GM and I'm sure Ainge is rolling his eyes on the other end like, "Uh, no Koby I'm not giving you another pick. Everyone sees what you're trying to do and if you ever want another GM to get a deal done with you you'll end this before your rep is dirt."
There's no doubt in my mind anyway that this deal was about the pick first and foremost. I mean I've viewed a damaged goods expiring contract as the 4th most valuable piece of this trade and now Altman is going to not act in good faith to extract a little extra? The guy will have a helluva time working with other GM's in this league if this is how he does business. Good Luck to you Koby.
It is hard to know exactly what is going on here. However, it is worth noting that the Celtics are the more vulnerable team here. If the trade falls apart, Cleveland can shovel off Kyrie elsewhere, and maybe teams that thought they lost Kyrie (and regretted it) will even up their offers. Whereas the Celtics are fucked. I'd be happy to have Crowder, Zizic, and the pick back (and I think things could be patched up with Crowder), but IT is an injured lame duck. If I'm Ainge and the deal falls apart, I wonder if he has any realistic option beyond telling IT's agent to find a landing spot. I guess the other option would be to just let him play (or rehab) out the string.
Was Danny up front with the Cavs on IT's status? I think he would had to have been a complete moron to be anything but up front, but I suppose it is possible that he wasn't. I hope he has good documentation of what he told the Cavs about IT. I suppose it is also possible that Danny was up front but the Cavs' and Celtics' medical people have a legit difference of opinion.
But I think it is more likely that HRB is correct and the Cavs are trying to leverage additinal value out of the C's knowing that they are in a better place if the deal collapses.
The 2 other possibilities I can see here are:
- This is just Cav organizational dysfunction. Some of the decision makers understood that IT was in there to match salaries and the main assets were Crowder and the pick, while others either had a different understanding or developed seller's remorse after the fact.
- The Hand of LeBron? Maybe he is the one who didn't like the deal or was unawae of IT's medical status and he is behind the Cavs attempt to leverage.
I think Altman has already damaged his reputation, at least in the short term. What a colossal unforced blunder - he was being lauded by many for extracting such a huge package from Ainge for a guy he was being forced to trade, but this just looks like he's being greedy. And for those who fear that IT and Crowder will have a problem coming back to Boston, Altman's got a much bigger problem if Irving has to return to the Cavs (plus less leverage if he tries to go and flip him to another team).
In not sure the Celtics are the more vulnerable team here. This blowing up fucks up their '17 season bad and they will probably end up getting close to zero out of IT as an asset, but they still are set up pretty well for the long term. Cavs pull out of this and end up getting 70 cents on the dollar for Kyrie and they are fucked for a decade.
IT was never coming back next year and the Celtics weren't going to win it all anyway, so if the big disaster is IT coming back with a bum hip it's no different than the situation a week ago. If Cleveland wants to find a package better than an expiring contract, Crowder, Zizic, and Brooklyn's pick, more power to them. Don't give them another damned thing.
Caveat: It may not be Altman driving this. Maybe he made the deal in good faith but Gilbert is pushing him to back out.
I don't think so. Yes Crowder might be pissed but he was going to be pissed anyways when his minutes got cut down. Zizac still wants to make a name for himself.
And IT4? Someone asked upthread why surgery hasn't been done yet. Well, he's still playing for his mega contract and while I'm sure he's wealthy, he still wants his Brinks Truck to roll through and he's going to play hard to try to get it.
Plus, they'll always have the BRK pick, and that guy doesn't care at all.
Not sure I agree, but I'll just say this: I hope you guys are correct and Danny tells Altman to pound sand and either take the deal or leave it.
I don't think Koby "Been Here Two Weeks" Altman is any more plugged in than people reading this thread. This trade has DAN GILBERT written all over it in comic sans. According to Mike Felger, Gilbert met with Wyc Grousbeck in Italy, where the basics of this deal were hashed out between ownership. When asked about his involvement in the deal, Wyc said: "Well, I helped."
Now, I'm sure Wyc didn't agree to the exact pieces of the deal; more like he and Gilbert talked about trading Irving, and it was agreed that the Celtics could meet Gilbert's price, and then Ainge brokered the details with Altman.
But let's not pretend that Altman has nearly the same level of autonomy that Ainge has - and Ainge's boss all but took credit for making this deal happened. Most probably, Altman was told by Gilbert: "we're trading Irving to Boston. Go make the best deal possible that includes the Brooklyn pick."
So... I'm also absolving Altman in this situation. Gilbert is more than likely the moron behind the machinations.
If Cleveland's alleged concerns are legit, then there's one less issue for Ainge if the deal falls apart because it probably means IT is cooked and you're not going to face reintegrating a beloved key player who you just tried to deal.
I mean, the package as it stands appears to have valued IT at a substantial discount. Like 50% or less of face value. If Cleveland legitimately discovered something that justifiably makes them feel he's not even worth that, then he wasn't likely to be a key part of this Celtics team anyway.
I mean, the package as it stands appears to have valued IT at a substantial discount. Like 50% or less of face value. If Cleveland legitimately discovered something that justifiably makes them feel he's not even worth that, then he wasn't likely to be a key part of this Celtics team anyway.
IT4's contact status for 18-19' is also hurt by this. Cleveland is saying that their medical people think he's damaged goods. Now with even a half season of play similar to last season it will be hard (or at least harder) to get a max contract following the season. Teams will look back on the Cleveland docs not passing him in an exam less than a year ago.
Depending on the procedure, for him, he may be better getting surgery now and going into free agency as a player rehabbing. Really bad outcome for all 3 parties here.
Well I did see rumors that Lebron is unhappy about the deal and that he'd rather want the Suns deal. Even though he is likely leaving I wouldn't put it past Lebron to get the trade killed if he feels that strongly about it. And IT's health would be the easy scapegoat.
This is like agreeing to buy a house and later trying to get a credit for the exterior paint not being in great condition. You already went to the open house and saw that paint... it should have been factored into your purchase price.
Everyone on the Celtics including Danny knew IT was damaged goods. He's been very vocal about it - it's not a secret. They already have planned for this possibility and have it covered in contract language if you ask me. I am not worried in the least
Everyone on the Celtics including Danny knew IT was damaged goods. He's been very vocal about it - it's not a secret. They already have planned for this possibility and have it covered in contract language if you ask me. I am not worried in the least
I definitely don't think the BKN pick is likely to be significantly better if any than a PHX pick if that's still on the table. If their medical team says IT4 is unlikely to return to full health at all this year, well is BKN 1, Crowder, Zizic, and dead money better than the PHX rumor of:
Bledsoe/Bender/PHX 1? That's a better big prospect, a better player (who plays the position you most need) and a likely similar or better pick.
There's a difference in degrees though. IF based on what the Celtics sent over and their medical review it looked like IT would be back after 2-4 weeks little chance of a long term loss of explosiveness, then when they got to do a real medical and their doctors said... half the season.... at least and fairly likely long term degradation of explosiveness. Well there is a huge gap between those values, and even baking something into the trade doesn't cover that gap.
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