Rodgers tried running Balotelli and Sturridge out there together. Unfortunately, Sturridge ended up being hurt for most of the season.
Liverpool 2015-16: We Didn't Want To Play in Europe Anyway
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Not sure of your point. The few times they ran out together they did look dangerous. Once the paper mache wonder went down there were still other strikers in the side.
My point is that you are saying Rodgers ran Balotelli out there as a lone striker to prove how smart he is. I'm pointing out that Rodgers did in fact try to play 2 strikers at various points. The 3-5-2 worked pretty well for a while. The other strikers in the squad were Borini and Lambert, neither one of which worked out, so he often played Sterling up top. Ultimately Mario missed a bunch of point-blank chances, didn't put much effort into pressing the ball, and when Sterling mentally checked out in the second half Rodgers wasn't left with any good options.
Sturridge back to full training at Melwood.
I know it's unlikely he'll be available in any capacity Saturday (unless it's as an impact sub) But it would be nice to have another alternative up top. I hope he can compliment Benteke on the pitch.
I know it's unlikely he'll be available in any capacity Saturday (unless it's as an impact sub) But it would be nice to have another alternative up top. I hope he can compliment Benteke on the pitch.
I'm starting to feel like Snakebauer here - talking to myself. Nevertheless, I continue on.
After today's catastrophe, I really believe that B-Rod should go. The listlessness that marked the end of last season seems to have bled into this one. The mitigating factor - who is out there that is an improvement? I'm betting FSG has made overtures to Klopp, and he's turned them down. So who else is there?
Anyone know if Carlo Ancelotti is healthy yet?
Plan B: do they wait for Sturridge to return, and hope his contributions turn them around? Seems like a foolish gamble, but I could be talked into the idea.
After today's catastrophe, I really believe that B-Rod should go. The listlessness that marked the end of last season seems to have bled into this one. The mitigating factor - who is out there that is an improvement? I'm betting FSG has made overtures to Klopp, and he's turned them down. So who else is there?
Anyone know if Carlo Ancelotti is healthy yet?
Plan B: do they wait for Sturridge to return, and hope his contributions turn them around? Seems like a foolish gamble, but I could be talked into the idea.
I really don't have a huge problem with how they tried to play today. With no Coutinho, Sturridge, and Henderson, it made some sense to try to get to the half at 0-0 then take your chances in the second. It's disappointing to give up the first goal off a set play but give credit to Blind for placing the shot nicely into the top corner. Gomez was naive with the challenge that conceded the penalty, but that's going to happen when you put a 19 year old center back out on the left. you obviously can't count on Benteke scoring like that every game, but they were also unfortunate not to score on the play that Blind cleared off the line, and De Gea made a couple nice saves as well.
We all knew this first stretch of games was going to be brutal, just have to get through them and hope to be close enough to make a run in the second half.
We all knew this first stretch of games was going to be brutal, just have to get through them and hope to be close enough to make a run in the second half.
I don't think you are. He just doesn't seem to have any idea. Today was an obvious chance to go back to the diamond and tuck his only playmaker (Firminho) behind Benteke and Ings. But he tried to get cute again. He's still playing Lovren and Skrtel with Sahko rotting on the bench (I know it's sacrilege but I'd sit Skrtel first). He waits too long on his energy guys in Ibe and Moreno. He dumps Markovic and Ilori at the deadline. I'd take Klopp or Ancelotti or anyone at this point.JayMags71 said:
I actually thought Lovren played pretty well today.
The "I'll take anyone at this point" attitude is how we ended up with Uncle Woy.
The "I'll take anyone at this point" attitude is how we ended up with Uncle Woy.
Admittedly, I'm the one that started this tangent. Upon further reflection, there really isn't anyone better out there, who isn't currently employed. I'm willing to bet that FSG offered Klopp and/or Ancelotti the job at the beginning of the summer, and he/They turned them down. That's really the most sensible answer after the way last season ended.SoxFanInCali said:
Really, who's out there?
Alright, I admit the "or anyone" is over the top. But if Klopp or Ancelotti is available, you have to consider the change. If not, you wait and see. I agree on Lovren and would still sit Skrtel for Sakho at this point. I don't expect a change and expect we'll see what happens with Sturridge before anything happens.
I wanted Rodgers sacked after the 6-0 drubbing we took from Stoke to end last season. This squad hasn't had an identity for some time now. It's not going to magically fix itself. At least not under BR. My belief in this club is at an all-time low. If FSG gives a damn, Rodgers is gone by Christmas. I'd be ecstatic if Klopp took over, but I have my doubts.
Why, exactly, do some of you think JKlo or CarAn would be interested in not coaching in the Champions League? Admittedly, I'm not an Anfie fanatic, but I think some of y'all are delusional to think you have a chance at world class managers who can have any job in the world, at any CL contender. Further, I think you're being way too hard on BRod, who's done an admirable job adding young, potentially world class talent to a team that before BRodge's arrival had basically none, other than an aging StGerr.
BrenRod is building something, and calls for his head after a road loss to another contender is silly. SFiC and Zmp are right about the situation, and y'all really should give BdanRo a bit more credit for having a plan, and not the healthy players to execute it.
JuKlopp and Eyebrow ain't happening, and thinking it might is unrealistic. Lay off BrRodg.
BrenRod is building something, and calls for his head after a road loss to another contender is silly. SFiC and Zmp are right about the situation, and y'all really should give BdanRo a bit more credit for having a plan, and not the healthy players to execute it.
JuKlopp and Eyebrow ain't happening, and thinking it might is unrealistic. Lay off BrRodg.
While you're eating this big bowl of diseased dicks, consider taking on the rampant use of "we" in the Arsenal thread. At least there you wouldn't be announcing your inability to get the joke every time you bitch about it.
I'll start by asking this question: How many LFC matches have you watched from beginning to end? I've already conceded I probably overreacted to yesterday's match. However, when the way the team tailed off towards the end of last season (1 win in the last six matches, including losses to Palace and Hull who are currently in the Championship, culminating in the fiasco that ended last season), B-Rod is lucky to have a job.soxfan121 said:
*(1)And you can fuck right off with your sanctimony about Ancelotti, and Klopp. "(They) can have any job in the world, at any CL contender."
I mean, really. And, how many of those jobs are open?
*(2) And (at the risk of sounding like Rudy), explain this "plan" to me. The tactics have no consistency, and the squad selection is often baffling. Yeah, his options were hampered yesterday. Yeah, Lovren played (relatively) well yesterday but I wasn't the only one who was surprised to see him start yesterday. And it still doesn't explain why Sakho and Moreno are stapled to the bench. Moreover, what's the offensive part of this plan? Three goals in five matches, all of them from fortunate strikes from distance with little-to-no build-up.
Finally (as DLew has alluded to) your act of waltzing into threads and sanctimoniously lecturing other fans how to behave has worn thin a long time ago. Back the fuck off.
Lighten up JaMa.
I said nothing that other "approved fans" haven't said and if you don't like being poked over the obvious joke being made (admittedly at your expense) the ignore function works fantastically.
Fuck right off indeed, JMaggy.
I said nothing that other "approved fans" haven't said and if you don't like being poked over the obvious joke being made (admittedly at your expense) the ignore function works fantastically.
Fuck right off indeed, JMaggy.
Hand-wringing over the manager is as much a part of the sport as anything. I truly believe there are valid reasons to seriously question Brodge's competence.
He has a system in his head right now that is most suited to bottom table teams. The 4-5-1 is designed to clog the midfield and hit on the counter. It requires either an incredibly talented holding forward (somebody admittedly in the Benteke mold) or a winger-style speedster that can take the ball to the corner, buying enough time for his support to arrive with the goal of whipping it in. I think this is what he tried to do with Sterling last year but the kid was checked out.
The problem continues to be that he's not using the right personnel for the job. The players he selects tend to be his best-ish 11, but they're totally miscast.
The use of Firmino and Ings yesterday was unforgivable. These are not wing backs, they're offensively minded. One is a true striker, the other is a creative playmaker. Credit both players for putting in the effort in tracking back, but recasting talented young players outside of their established strengths is a short path to discontent. Brodge will lose these guys.
This isn't a difficult problem to solve. The same 11 could have been trotted out in their traditional roles: same back 4, Firmino leading an attacking diamond with Lucas as the CDM, Benteke and Ings up front. There is attacking intent with a relatively small tweak and you play to your side's strengths.
If there is maintained insistence on this infuriating 4-5-1, Moreno and Ibe have to enter as the wingers. You can't ask a striker to fill that role.
Finally, the substitutions... I'll buy that Ings was probably gassed after killing himself out of position all day. He was still one of the most effective players on the pitch, however. Next off is Firmino- is Brodge even paying attention? Lucas finally comes off as... What? A delaying tactic? Just to piss off Moreno more?
At issue here is the patterns. Poor tactical selection, misusing players out of their natural positions, and baffling substitutions that show total lack of feel for what's in front of him. This was the hallmark of the last season and it hasn't changed. Time for the boot.
He has a system in his head right now that is most suited to bottom table teams. The 4-5-1 is designed to clog the midfield and hit on the counter. It requires either an incredibly talented holding forward (somebody admittedly in the Benteke mold) or a winger-style speedster that can take the ball to the corner, buying enough time for his support to arrive with the goal of whipping it in. I think this is what he tried to do with Sterling last year but the kid was checked out.
The problem continues to be that he's not using the right personnel for the job. The players he selects tend to be his best-ish 11, but they're totally miscast.
The use of Firmino and Ings yesterday was unforgivable. These are not wing backs, they're offensively minded. One is a true striker, the other is a creative playmaker. Credit both players for putting in the effort in tracking back, but recasting talented young players outside of their established strengths is a short path to discontent. Brodge will lose these guys.
This isn't a difficult problem to solve. The same 11 could have been trotted out in their traditional roles: same back 4, Firmino leading an attacking diamond with Lucas as the CDM, Benteke and Ings up front. There is attacking intent with a relatively small tweak and you play to your side's strengths.
If there is maintained insistence on this infuriating 4-5-1, Moreno and Ibe have to enter as the wingers. You can't ask a striker to fill that role.
Finally, the substitutions... I'll buy that Ings was probably gassed after killing himself out of position all day. He was still one of the most effective players on the pitch, however. Next off is Firmino- is Brodge even paying attention? Lucas finally comes off as... What? A delaying tactic? Just to piss off Moreno more?
At issue here is the patterns. Poor tactical selection, misusing players out of their natural positions, and baffling substitutions that show total lack of feel for what's in front of him. This was the hallmark of the last season and it hasn't changed. Time for the boot.
What if Sakho has not been playing well in practice? He didn't play well in the time he saw last year. Some of you guys have green grass backup QB Syndrome with this guy, whom I don't believe is a better option than Lovren at all.
I've only started following this team since Henry bought them, but to my layman's eyes this team creates so little on attack. I can't speak to the tactics as much but with so much supposed attacking talent, it seems that this team spends so little time creating any chances in the box. This team has 3 goals in 5 games. Two were incredible strikes from distance and the third was off a free kick and was really offside. Let me ask this of the more seasoned watchers of this team - was the scoring juggernaut of 2 years ago due to Rodgers' tactics or was it because he had Suarez, a healthy Sturridge, and a motivated Sterling? Also, even though he was kind of toast in midfield, Gerrard was still a great free kick taker. Does this team have anyone remotely close to him?
SocrManiac said:
That formation may or may not be right for this group of players but the bolded is just not true. Arsenal, Chelsea, and United all use a 4-5-1 as their base formation, City have been transitioning there as well, and tons of clubs in other leagues play this as well. It is frequently chosen by top teams looking to dominate possession.
What is truly unusual is to find a top club team playing the 4-4-2 diamond that you're recommending, which is probably one reason why Rodgers wants to play differently. If you want to play with the best, you need to be able to (a) have the numbers to compete for midfield dominance and (b) play with wingers or wing-midfielders that will allow you to match up on the flanks and contain marauding fullbacks. 4-5-1 gives you both while 4-4-2 diamond makes you pick your poison.
I misspoke. Rodgers' 4-5-1 is as I outlined, not THE 4-5-1. You are correct.
Carragher called it a 4-3-3 yesterday and I'm not sure how it could be viewed as such.
A 4-4-2 diamond isn't ideal, but it's what the personnel they're putting on the field are suited to. This team won't be successful on the attack if Firmino and Ings are running box to box on the sidelines.
Carragher called it a 4-3-3 yesterday and I'm not sure how it could be viewed as such.
A 4-4-2 diamond isn't ideal, but it's what the personnel they're putting on the field are suited to. This team won't be successful on the attack if Firmino and Ings are running box to box on the sidelines.
In many ways, I think Liverpool are just paying the costs of expectation that the improbable run at the championship created. It is, of course, amusing that Rodgers was considered the smartest manager in England just two years ago for getting Gerrard to play deeper and moving to a 4-4-2 diamond formation to get the most out of his attacking talents. But that entire run was built on the backs of a pretty fortunate run of results (not an insult, all teams need fortune in this game) and Suarez playing just out of his mind. I know you lot more than most appreciate how good Suarez was but you were put in this position of thinking you'd make it all the way back but the team then was really not as good as the points it generated indicated which was of course compounded by selling Suarez who had papered over many of the cracks.
So while blaming the manager is of course step 1 in anything, I just don't see the talent on Liverpool's roster. There are lots of nice players, pseudo big names and a fair number of projects, but remarkably few match winners and very few players who would be a regular on a Champion or CL team in England or most of the world. As an outsider, it just looks like a collection of average to above average players who don't fit particularly well searching for a way to be greater than the sum of its parts. Which is admirable, but it's probably a recipe for Europa league more than a recipe for Champions League. In a lot of ways, it feels like Liverpool had disastrously bad timing in trying to move toward a value/youth approach. The PL has had a tremendous influx of big names at the money in England has continued to grow, but Liverpool haven't even made serious efforts at many of them even while selling Suarez and now Sterling. I think this change in approach had to have at least been influenced by Henry, where this has produced success in baseball, but it's kind of tone deaf to the realities of the football world and especially tone deaf to the realities of Liverpool's fan base. The bottom line is that if you want to shop for value and youth you have to be willing to be a selling club -- turn over big profits on selling the players who have made it while acquiring a few more ready made superstars. It's an incredibly difficult tightrope to walk, but you can see teams like Atletico and Porto doing it fairly regularly. But I don't think Liverpool's fans want to become Porto and the league in England is too difficult for Liverpool to have Porto's success.
In summation, I guess I just don't think it's a formation problem at all. A 4-4-2 diamond isn't going to raise the talent level of the team enough for them to really contend. Tactically, it may not even be the best formation in a league where many have moved to more of a 4-5-1/4-3-3 style of play. But to me Liverpool need to do what other big teams not in CL have done: spend money. On both young projects and established players. Non-CL teams have to pay more money to get the same players and it absolutely throws out the value equation, but I think Liverpool are falling into the dangerous trap of assembling a roster full of players who are good values for money but don't represent a cohesive and title chasing team on the pitch. It's hard to know how much the identification of transfer targets is on Rodgers but I do suppose he deserves at least some blame for that. It hasn't helped that Lallana seemed to turn into a pumpkin when he was poised to break out and Balotelli wasn't able to take what seemed to have been his final chance.
So while blaming the manager is of course step 1 in anything, I just don't see the talent on Liverpool's roster. There are lots of nice players, pseudo big names and a fair number of projects, but remarkably few match winners and very few players who would be a regular on a Champion or CL team in England or most of the world. As an outsider, it just looks like a collection of average to above average players who don't fit particularly well searching for a way to be greater than the sum of its parts. Which is admirable, but it's probably a recipe for Europa league more than a recipe for Champions League. In a lot of ways, it feels like Liverpool had disastrously bad timing in trying to move toward a value/youth approach. The PL has had a tremendous influx of big names at the money in England has continued to grow, but Liverpool haven't even made serious efforts at many of them even while selling Suarez and now Sterling. I think this change in approach had to have at least been influenced by Henry, where this has produced success in baseball, but it's kind of tone deaf to the realities of the football world and especially tone deaf to the realities of Liverpool's fan base. The bottom line is that if you want to shop for value and youth you have to be willing to be a selling club -- turn over big profits on selling the players who have made it while acquiring a few more ready made superstars. It's an incredibly difficult tightrope to walk, but you can see teams like Atletico and Porto doing it fairly regularly. But I don't think Liverpool's fans want to become Porto and the league in England is too difficult for Liverpool to have Porto's success.
In summation, I guess I just don't think it's a formation problem at all. A 4-4-2 diamond isn't going to raise the talent level of the team enough for them to really contend. Tactically, it may not even be the best formation in a league where many have moved to more of a 4-5-1/4-3-3 style of play. But to me Liverpool need to do what other big teams not in CL have done: spend money. On both young projects and established players. Non-CL teams have to pay more money to get the same players and it absolutely throws out the value equation, but I think Liverpool are falling into the dangerous trap of assembling a roster full of players who are good values for money but don't represent a cohesive and title chasing team on the pitch. It's hard to know how much the identification of transfer targets is on Rodgers but I do suppose he deserves at least some blame for that. It hasn't helped that Lallana seemed to turn into a pumpkin when he was poised to break out and Balotelli wasn't able to take what seemed to have been his final chance.
Teddy, I agree that the 2014 title chase created unreasonable expectations, and that the talent level across the squad mostly just isn't there. But I don't think Liverpool's problem is failing to spend enough money. They spent gross 178m on new players the last two years, with net spend of 50m over that time. That's a gross spend way higher than, say, Arsenal or Chelsea have, and the net spend is bigger than Chelsea's and almost as big as Arsenal's (these numbers do ignore wages, which are significant). They've bought 8 players the last two seasons for >10m, and 5 for >15m.
The big problem is that many of those signings haven't worked out. In particular, last year's big signings have turned into a disaster -- they spent the Suarez money on Lallana, Lovren, Markovic, and Balotelli (bought for a combined 71m); Balotelli and Markovic aren't even at the club right now, and only Lovren is still in the first choice XI (and wouldn't be if the LFC fans on this board had their way). They needed to nail those signings by landing at least one genuine star and a couple of capable starters, but they didn't come close to that.
Their signings this year look rather better -- I like both Clyne and Benteke a lot, and haven't seen enough of Firmino yet to have an opinion, even if selling Sterling means they are to a certain extent treading water. But a club in Liverpool's financial position can't afford to just light 70m in transfer fees on fire like they did last year. Maybe Man Utd or the oil clubs can do that and get away with it, but not Liverpool.
The big problem is that many of those signings haven't worked out. In particular, last year's big signings have turned into a disaster -- they spent the Suarez money on Lallana, Lovren, Markovic, and Balotelli (bought for a combined 71m); Balotelli and Markovic aren't even at the club right now, and only Lovren is still in the first choice XI (and wouldn't be if the LFC fans on this board had their way). They needed to nail those signings by landing at least one genuine star and a couple of capable starters, but they didn't come close to that.
Their signings this year look rather better -- I like both Clyne and Benteke a lot, and haven't seen enough of Firmino yet to have an opinion, even if selling Sterling means they are to a certain extent treading water. But a club in Liverpool's financial position can't afford to just light 70m in transfer fees on fire like they did last year. Maybe Man Utd or the oil clubs can do that and get away with it, but not Liverpool.
coremiller said:
Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with any of that. They spent plenty of money and pretty much none of it worked out -- I guess I still see all those names as "value" style signings and Liverpool would have been far better off doing what United did and paying stupid money for Di Maria than signing a bunch of nickels instead of a quarter, so to speak.
Kind of a meh game so far, better than expected given the team that made the trip to Bordeaux.
Right now they're in a back 3 with Can, Gomez, and Sakho, Ibe and Moreno as wing-backs, Rossiter and Chiravella as the holding mids, and Coutinho/Lallana behind Origi. Chiravella had to come on for an injured Touré with Can sliding back into a back 3.
Sakho has been massive thus far. If he isn't in the team come Sunday there are major problems. Honestly, a Sakho - Škrtel - Lovren back 3 isn't the worst idea.
Right now they're in a back 3 with Can, Gomez, and Sakho, Ibe and Moreno as wing-backs, Rossiter and Chiravella as the holding mids, and Coutinho/Lallana behind Origi. Chiravella had to come on for an injured Touré with Can sliding back into a back 3.
Sakho has been massive thus far. If he isn't in the team come Sunday there are major problems. Honestly, a Sakho - Škrtel - Lovren back 3 isn't the worst idea.
I agree. The manner in which B - Rod has stapled Sakho to the bench is one of the most curious storylines of this season. My google skills have failed me, has anyone seen any rumors as to the manner he's offended the manager? Is he dogging it in practice?PedroSpecialK said:
It would be nice if that rebuilds his confidence enough to make him a useful squad player.PedroSpecialK said:
Rossiter off for Brannagan - thought Rossiter had a terrific game, wouldn't mind seeing him get a start in Henderson's absence in the PL
Gomez falls asleep defensively, Can can't deal with pressure at the top of the area and Bordeaux level
I'll take 1-1 especially with that team, but conceding on a goal like that is massively deflating
Barry Glendenning said on todays Football Weekly Extra that Rodgers was told before the Man U match that he had three PL fixtures to save his job. Norwich would basically be a must-win for Rodgers. Also, Raphael Honigstein reported that over the summer Klopp told LFC to come back and talk to him in November if they were still interested.
Seems that one of them has been fed incorrect information. If they lose, and they follow through on firing B - Rod, do they hire a caretaker until November? I'm willing to bet J - Klopp is using LFC as leverage with Bayern.
Since Glendenning was told that Rodgers needed seven points from three matches and can only get six right now, I'd say we know who it is.
That may still be true. I can't imagine Rodgers being canned without a replacement already lined up. Or, at the very least the decision has already been made to bring in Klopp and they are simply waiting on his availability.DLew On Roids said:
Well, whatever has kept Sakho on the bench early this season didn't stop him from signing a new long-term deal, reportedly for 5 years.
Because he's enjoying a little vacation and doesn't want to think about his future for a while?Nick Kaufman said:
Sturbridge may be back on Sunday .. Along with Henderson. Rodgers also indicated Sakho would probably play. So who plays where?
If they go with a back three then you have a 3-4-3
Mignolet
Sakho - Skrtle - Lovren
Clyne and Moreno as wing backs
Henderson - Milner
And three of
Benteke , Continho, Firmino and Sturridge
If Sturridge makes the team I would think he would be a second half sub.
Edit: I can't count
If they go with a back three then you have a 3-4-3
Mignolet
Sakho - Skrtle - Lovren
Clyne and Moreno as wing backs
Henderson - Milner
And three of
Benteke , Continho, Firmino and Sturridge
If Sturridge makes the team I would think he would be a second half sub.
Edit: I can't count
Exactly. He was burned out at the end of his Dortmund run and wanted some time away.BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
Well, this is something.
Who knows how reliable "Winner Sports" is, but a lot of the fandom seems to be passing it around.
The timing seems odd given the erection of the new stand. Wouldn't FSG want to reap those rewards?
I really don't want LFC to fall into the same oil money trap of the teams I really hate. Given the correlation of cash to top 4 finishes, however, I don't see how they're going to win a title without the infusion of funny money.
I really don't want LFC to fall into the same oil money trap of the teams I really hate. Given the correlation of cash to top 4 finishes, however, I don't see how they're going to win a title without the infusion of funny money.
I saw a similar rumor, not sure the source (was on my phone at the time), that UEFA was going to ease the Financial Fair Play regulations, and JWH didn't want to play in funny money land. It also showed that the sale price would likely be at a premium to what Henry paid, so it could make sense.