Logan Mankins traded to Tampa Bay
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
Man, the "Patriots Sign Richie Incognito" thread is going to be super awkward.
Count me in with those stunned by this. Going into this season OL was a big concern and they trade Mankins? I guess they're happy with what they have.
Count me in with those stunned by this. Going into this season OL was a big concern and they trade Mankins? I guess they're happy with what they have.
RedOctober3829 said:
I hear you RO, but you have to give up something to get something. In this case it fills the most glaring need on offense (even more than a guard) and frees up a ton of dough.
Unexpected and even as shocking as letting Seymour or Milloy go, but it's a winner.
RedOctober3829 said:
Don't see this. Cannon seems to get more reps at tackle than G. I think it is far more likely we see something like Kline-Wendell-Connolly or Kline-Stork-Connolly or something like that. Let's not forget that when Mankins was forced to play LT that Kline played pretty well.
RedOctober3829 said:
Can you expand on this opinion? I ask this honestly because I don't have nearly enough football accumen to accurately evaluate guard play.
Whatever the return, there was a reason or reasons that BB decided it was time to move on from Mankins. Cap space, declining performance, removing the "leader" of the offensive line, new blocking schemes ... most have been touched on in here.
I tend to think that the moving on from Mankins element outweighed what they got back
I tend to think that the moving on from Mankins element outweighed what they got back
Yeah, not sure why that (how does this help the Oline) is a question. The only way it helps the OL is if there are two guards better than Mankins on the roster (and moving Connolly off of center doesnt downgrade enough to offset it), That seems unlikely, so it seems like BB thinks the risk/level of OL downgrade in '14 was worth it for the extra cap space, pick, and player
Do you think he's still the best? I'd have him as third behind Vollmer and Solder.RedOctober3829 said:
You're up in RFP, BTW. And clean out your PM box!
Wow is all I can say. Other than the time Mankins was running his mouth during the contract fiasco, from the outside Mankins seemed as though he was a high effort and durable player, which is something Bill seems to put a high value on.
It seems Bill just loves to give us a giant surprise every year, one of those 'never saw that coming' deals. I knew Mankins what he was, but I didnt think he was as bad as this trade suggests because Bill typically just trades guys who he thinks are done.
As said upthread, the Mankins contract situation looked like one that would have to be addressed somehow after the season, but while his value didnt exceed his cap hit this year its just really surprising they didnt find value in just keeping him around for one more year. Suddenly the depth on the line looks rather shallow.
Unreal.
It seems Bill just loves to give us a giant surprise every year, one of those 'never saw that coming' deals. I knew Mankins what he was, but I didnt think he was as bad as this trade suggests because Bill typically just trades guys who he thinks are done.
As said upthread, the Mankins contract situation looked like one that would have to be addressed somehow after the season, but while his value didnt exceed his cap hit this year its just really surprising they didnt find value in just keeping him around for one more year. Suddenly the depth on the line looks rather shallow.
Unreal.
Interesting ... Felger just said they recently approached Mankins about being part of the post-game show again on Comcast and Mankins told them he would ... if he made the team. He apparently saw this coming himself.
Guess this also means my mini-binky Dustin Keller won't be walking through that door anytime soon...
FL4WL3SS said:
Yeah because Wendell.
Mooch said:
But Hernandez was also much younger.
RedOctober3829 said:
It doesn't help the O-line.
SeoulSoxFan said:
Jeez, you are a honk. There is no way you can call this a winner right now. This could be a massive failure.
Maybe, but why not be more aggressive in FA and the draft in getting more interior OL? The Mankins trade makes sense in a vacuum, but in context it's hard to see what the plan is with the OL.E5 Yaz said:
Why is a second TE more important than G?SeoulSoxFan said:
Am I the only one who thinks that the move would be great if Dante was still coaching the OLine? I'm a little concerned about how this could play out since Brady isn't getting younger and the team just took away a big cog to the offensive line.
Just for the sake of arguing, was there ever a time Mankins missed some games and the general thought was "boy, if only they had Mankins, things would've gone differently"?
Nobody. I'm just saying here.....the OL was a question mark coming into the season. Now, you trade your best interior lineman. You gain a player to throw to, but lose a key player to keep Brady upright. Very, very risky move.TomRicardo said:
RedOctober3829 said:
RedOctober3829 said:
No, he wasn't. Mankins play had fallen significantly from his pre-ACL form and last season he was at best, the third-best OL on the team behind Solder and Vollmer. His struggles in pass protection were always an issue (Justin Tuck says hello!) and they got worse last season.
He is 32, on the downside with a play level that was demonstrably getting worse each season. And he was one of the top-paid Guards in the NFL. The production no longer justified the salary.
Super Nomario said:
Seriously RO - clean out your inbox.
I didn't realize that whoever had the best offensive line wins the game.RedOctober3829 said:
Less snarky, I think Brady being more in tune with his receivers and perhaps them getting open faster will help him release the ball quicker and have fewer sacks. Manning's line looked great all year until he ran into a defense that could over his receivers. The interior line play is important but I think it's a bit overrated w/r/t pass protection. TE was a need too, unless you wanted a lot of Hooman (nothing against Hooman, but he's limited).
I think the offensive line is a work in progress but I think it already was. They added Stork and as noted above, Mankins was probably gone next year anyway. Still time to make other changes too. Not that there is someone of this quality out there, but Brian Waters didn't sign until September 4.
RedOctober3829 said:
No way was Mankins the best OL on the team. Solder and Vollmer, obviously are better, and then it's debatable among the others. Personally I think Cannon is clearly better, as well. Add in that Mankins is older/on the decline, it may well be that the Pats have other guys graded as higher, too.
Personally I love this trade:
-at worst they lose 1 year of Mankins
-at best the replacement for Mankins is as good or better than he is. I think he'll be as good.
-there was a TE need which is now filled. Hoo-man was a weak link.
-the cap space will be handy due to their previous 2nd TE.
-a 4th rounder is okay.
Absolutely plausible. He can play. BB does not give a flying you-know-what about PC. And the simple fact of the matter is that the Dolphins locker room had his back, which means the AA players had his back.Clears Cleaver said:
The questions in my mind are money and whether he can conduct himself professionally.
If those can be satisfied to Pats' satisfaction, I would not be surprised.
And when the inevitable, "How can you replace a solid citizen with a dirt bag like Richie?" is raised, BB will make it clear that he is not here to please talking heads, or SOSH for that matter.
This is a quintessential "football" trade. Hard to understand, hard to explain, but because basically nobody on the outside knows anything about player evaluation, it's hard to really critique or praise either. The most important piece of information in the trade isn't Mankins, Wright, the cap space, or the pick. It's Bill Belichick. He's basically the only data point that tells us much of anything.
Was Dante consulted? 
If I didnt know BB had more football knowledge come out in his morning dump then I have in my entire body I might be more worried....but he DIDNT like something with Mankins and or did like something with the other interior guys.
Well I hope Wright rooms with Lefell over the next few weeks discussing the finer points of blocking.
If I didnt know BB had more football knowledge come out in his morning dump then I have in my entire body I might be more worried....but he DIDNT like something with Mankins and or did like something with the other interior guys.
Well I hope Wright rooms with Lefell over the next few weeks discussing the finer points of blocking.
Toe Nash said:
Good point about Manning's line. I mean, it looked like the Pats O-line was just fine in 2011 up until the Super Bowl, and both 2012 and last year up until the AFCCG. Overall I don't think the line is really an "issue".
RedOctober3829 said:
I don't agree that the OL was a question mark coming into the season. They looked bad at times last year but a lot of that--particularly the truly horrid plays like the one where Atkins smashed Brady about two plays into the Cincy game--were on run/play action passes where the defense didn't bite--and that's a play-calling problem (necessitated because of the crappy receivers) more than an o-line question. I'm more than willing to concede that I've got questions about the line now that we're taking out a very dependable player.
Given the paltry value they're getting I've got to think that this is primarily about cap space and about the fact that they don't see him as being that much more productive a player than Kline/Connolly/Stork/Cannon at this point.
It is also important to note that when you're transitioning units you don't want to do it all at once. Mankins/Wendell/Connolly weren't going to be your starters in 2015/2016 so better to start the turnover now rather than do it all at once. Of course I figured Wendell and Connolly would be the first men out.
I would have some concern about their ability to run as it seemed anecdotally that Mankins was really great at run blocking. I remember him opening some huge holes for Blount when Blount had the crazy run at the end of last year. That said, passing is far more important.tims4wins said:
DrewDawg said:
You are mostly correct but it is possible the "addition by subtraction" rule could apply. Not likely, of course, but possible.
Fans knew Mankins name but anyone who thinks Mankins was still an All-Pro level player is guilty of not paying enough attention. He had fallen from that lofty standard to "above-average starter" by last season and it is possible (despite PFF's preseason grades) that he had fallen even further during camp. IOW, had Mankins of 2007 shown up for camp in 2014, he isn't traded. Mankins 2014 was some significant amount worse than Mankins 2007.
And if Devey/Kline/whomever played better this summer, it is possible (again, not likely but possible) that trading Mankins allows the "best" five to play together, hence "improving" the OL.
bakahump said:
You never know--Dowling was a starter as a rookie after doing almost nothing in pre-season-but I think the better bet is that he's not playing.
He's a sixth round pick; he's big and he has cool hair and that's nice but there aren't a lot of reasons to think he's ready to be a starting OL right now.
I hear this on WFAN driving back from a meeting--WTF?
Did Dante ok this and is Incognito coming in?
Did Dante ok this and is Incognito coming in?
bankshot1 said:
Dante may be retired but he apparently consults with the team. Who the hell knows if he knew about this or OKed it.
There are enough decentish interior linemen on the team that I don't see them getting Incognito.
The only thing I don't like about this is the faint whiff of Greg Schianner, Rutgers Whisperer, lurking in the background like an SBD...
I think Mankins was the best run blocker on the team still. I'll give you that his pass blocking had slipped, but do you really think Cannon will do a better job? The only thing I like about this trade currently is the cap space going forward. If Cannon or whoever his replacement is turns out to be better, then great and obviously we'll all be happy with this trade especially if Wright contributes. But, sitting here right now it's very hard to say that the interior OL is better than what it was when we last saw it.Tony C said:
If memory serves, Mankins was forced into playing LT for about a game and a half last year - the 2nd half of the loss @ Miami, and the following week @ Baltimore. While the Pats lost at Miami, they did put up 450 yards, and Brady was only sacked once. The Pats had 22 carries for 96 yards that game.
The following week they destroyed Baltimore. Only 300 total yards, but they did run it really well with 34 carries for 142 yards. They played ahead for much of that game. Brady was sacked twice that game.
Obviously it is SSS, but the line seemed to fare just fine without Mankins at LG. And you have to assume Solder at LT > Mankins at LT.
The following week they destroyed Baltimore. Only 300 total yards, but they did run it really well with 34 carries for 142 yards. They played ahead for much of that game. Brady was sacked twice that game.
Obviously it is SSS, but the line seemed to fare just fine without Mankins at LG. And you have to assume Solder at LT > Mankins at LT.
Super Nomario said:
Yeah but Vollmer is always hurt and Solder is one concussion behind Mike Wright.
soxfan121 said:
RedOctober and his dirty stuffed box.
Just make a pick, guy.
soxfan121 said:
If he wasn't a possibility before I don't know why he would be now. They could have always used another good guard and haven't had him in. Now it's just two.
Robert Kraft, I suspect, would nix signing Incognito, based on some blend of morality and PR. Bill Belichick would nix signing Incognito, I hope, because Incognito is not a very good football player. And he was a douchey teammate and sketchy character long before any ever heard of Martin.
I've skimmed this thread, and if this mentioned I didn't see it, but is it possible that this isn't just a Mankins issue, but also a hoped for solution to the concern about Gronk's availability (and yes i know this guy is not Gronk)