Do you think within the organization they don't know who is responsible for what?WenZink said:
Lucchino out as CEO?
- Thread starter TimScribble
- Start date
Has Tara ever tried to navigate a rotary?Beomoose said:
Seriously, though, isn't it likely that Beane has signed a noncompete as part of his ownership stake in the A's? I know California law is generally anti-noncompete, but I seem to recall there is an exception for business owners.
HriniakPosterChild said:
If Beane wants to move to the Red Sox and take a promotion, the A's aren't going to stand in his way for similar reasons as the Red Sox had for letting Epstein out of his contract a year early to go to the Cubs. Plus there's now an established precedent for compensation levels for these kind of executive moves (one warm body who isn't a real prospect).
Papelbon's Poutine said:
I can't say for sure about the Red Sox, but I've worked for a couple of companies that had that very problem. For instance, I could see a case where everyone tangentially involved thinks a different individual was most responsible for the Carl Crawford deal, where baseball ops felt it was pressured to make the "big signing" because of falling NESN ratings, and where Lucchino felt the only reason he got Henry's approval for signing Crawford was because Epstein was so high on him. (This is all conjecture, of course. But shT like this happens all the time in dysfunctional organizations.)
Of course, in the end, we all know it's Allard Baird's fault! (which may explain why the keep him around.)
Ok, I think we're getting closer to the problem, so I'll ask another question.WenZink said:
Do you think a baseball front office is something that even remotely resembles any company you've ever worked in?
Papelbon's Poutine said:
I've never worked in a baseball front office, but I think so. I worked in a 150-200 employee company, where there was an unfortunate overlap between the manufacturing and marketing factions. We even had a Larry Lucchino type, who was not a principal owner, but was very experienced in all aspects of the company. An for all his knowledge and experience, at times, he was the biggest problem. To satisfy the big customers, he'd pressure manufacturing to turn out new products without the proper testing cycles. And when the products were not up to par, the "LL-type" would blame the production team, and the Production Manager would blame the "LL-guy" for pressuring him to rush the new process. It happened over and over.
Ah, there it is.WenZink said:
It's not. And I don't need to have worked in a front office to know that. There are things that are comparable to a normal business but free agents signings are not one of them.
Everyone there knows who had how much input on which moves. The final approval was JH. The only people LL is accountable to is the people above him on the mast head.
Well, we can agree to disagree. There are similarities across certain types of organizations. There are a limited amount of dysfunctions, so that they are seen in different types of companies. John Henry is a smart man who entrusted much to another smart man in Larry Lucchino. But Baseball Ops should never have to worry, in the short run, about "making a splash" in the Free Agent market, or about NESN ratings, or even ticket sales. I'm not sure that's been the case. Hopefully, the new structure will remedy the situation, or at least mitigate it.Papelbon's Poutine said:
yecul said:
While LL certainly mucked up the Lester negotiations (as far as we know), he also screwed up the affordability of Lackey's potential last year in Boston. If we're to believe Rob Bradford, Lackey didn't want to play for the Sox this year because they weren't going to sign Lester.
HOWEVER, Cherrington totally screwed up the aftermath. The Lackey trade is pretty much a disaster and the Lester trade wasn't much better. Add that to his signing of Pablo Sandoval (I actually think that Ramirez has been okay and would have preferred him at 3B) and I'd say that Cherrington hasn't been doing too great on the ML level.
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
Ok, but if he's directed by LL to take a certain action in a certain way, how can he be measured by the outcome? I don't know this to be the case at all and we will never know. I am presenting it as a possibility that would somewhat exonerate BC.
Now, I don't want to suggest he has no skin in the game, but I do think LL had a broad reach and influence and did some drive by GMing in his day.
I think Lucchino has been good for the Red Sox for the most part- and I find outlandish celebrations of his departure a little silly. Thanks the the team's purposefully opaque (for outsiders) decision-making process, we don't really know who's responsible for what deal; I don't much buy the conventional wisdom that Lucchino was the primary responsible for all the terrible tactical moves this team has made over the past ten years. But it's been convenient for people to go after him, and I almost suspect that's a role he welcomed, especially as it allowed to mostly shield Henry, Werner, and Gordon.
We're all reading tea leaves here, but to me, this means Ben will likely be out at the end of the year - as will Farrell. The structure/approach they've been using recently just has not worked for a long time now (2013 notwithstanding), and Lucchino leaving is a good opportunity to put something else in place, with a VP of Baseball operations. I don't think LL was pushed out, but I think they'll use this as an opportunity to clean up the FO, which probably needs fresh thinking at this point.
We're all reading tea leaves here, but to me, this means Ben will likely be out at the end of the year - as will Farrell. The structure/approach they've been using recently just has not worked for a long time now (2013 notwithstanding), and Lucchino leaving is a good opportunity to put something else in place, with a VP of Baseball operations. I don't think LL was pushed out, but I think they'll use this as an opportunity to clean up the FO, which probably needs fresh thinking at this point.
They have a better performing third baseman, at least this year, in Brett Lawrie. Who saw that coming? Lawrie is making a little over 10% this year what Sandoval does.Green Monster said:
I agree completely - though I've been pushing for a FO clean-out for awhile, I absolutely also appreciate what LL did for Fenway's renovations and on building great teams around Manny and Ortiz for a decade between 2004-2013.Snoop Soxy Dogg said:
2010-2015 includes one magical, wonderful year. But since 2007 the general trend aside from one performance spike in 2013 and the 2011 team thay was blown up, the macro year-over-year trend has been to field a less competitive team than the previous year.
Ultimately, that's on the CEO.
[Edit] damn phone
yecul said:
Do you think that LL was over Cherrington's shoulder telling him what to do, micromanaging every deal? Because if that's true, what's the point of having Cherrington as the GM?
Though if you're saying, LL initially screwed this up and it was left to Cherrington to clean up the mess. I can kind of get on board with that. But no one, especially in baseball, is an island. Epstein did pretty well, despite having LL involved. Duquette did pretty well, though Harrington might have mucked some things up for him. Everyone has a boss and everyone's boss thinks that they know best. Part of being a good employee is taking your boss' screwups and fixing them.
I mean I can't sit here and say that everything wrong that happened to the Sox during the last five years is LL's fault and then say, the good stuff that happened? That was all Cherrington. LL has not been my favorite member of the trio, but I can't sit here and say that everything he did was bone-headed. He's a pretty smart guy and he knows baseball pretty well.
I find it plausible that he would have heavy input into the trades of Lackey and Lester in the context of the following year's team. Those trades were somewhat unique in that they involved the acquisition of ML talent rather than ml, particularly for a losing club. Those trades were retooling for a push (of some kind) the next year. IMO it really worked to minimize their returns or at least the ceiling of their return.
BC's record is clearly not clean and I remain skeptical, but I am willing to give more rope. To each their own on that front.
BC's record is clearly not clean and I remain skeptical, but I am willing to give more rope. To each their own on that front.
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
"...Lucchino, the man described appreciatively by Red Sox principal owner John Henry (who also owns the Globe) as a micromanager, wants to make sure that nothing is neglected in the last hours before first pitch."
"If God is in the details, then Lucchino qualifies as a zealot. When he was in San Diego, he hung a banner with that mantra at the construction site. For massive projects, he cared about construction down to the level of the color of nuts and bolts."
At Fenway Park, no detail too small for Larry Lucchino (Alex Speier, 4/14/15)
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/04/14/fenway-park-detail-too-small-for-larry-lucchino/sG0bwkIZ0fb28X9OYEgCLK/story.html
[Edit - added article title, byline, date]
There's certainly some wishcasting on my part that BC has had more independence on the minors and other areas that might not be in LL's focus. And that LL had a heavy hand in some of the bigger splash moves. There is certainly a strong case to dump BC as well, but I will focus on the good and hope for the best with another year or two. I think the farm will begin to pay more significant dividends going forward.
soxfan121 said:
That's kind of my point. I think that LL is brought in to handle the big stuff: like Valentine's hiring and negotiating with Lester. He also probably weighs in heavily with big free agent signings. Cherrington's job is the day-to-day operations (like trades) and I don't know, but I don't think that LL knows other teams' minor league organizations as well as Cherrington does.
I don't think that LL sat down with Billy Beane or John Moseliak and hammered out those deals last year. I would wager that Cherrington did. Does that mean that LL was ignorant of what the Sox were planning on doing? No, but I think it was probably like in most businesses: middle-management (BC) puts together a plan, the upper management (LL) looks at it and gives it a thumbs up. Ultimately, the success or failure will go to Cherrington.
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
People keep pointing out we have no insight into how decision making works in that organization, but this sounds pretty plausible to me. I also wonder if it's possible the main reason Henry is splitting the roles is that he thought LL was spread too thin - between the number of things he was paying attention to, and the level of detail he liked to work at - and he thinks that's a factor in the problems of the last several years.
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
I bet LL also does a once over on press releases to make sure nobody mis-spells Cherington.
kieckeredinthehead said:
Oh ho, ho! Such wit!
I'm incredibly sorry, I hope you weren't completely confused.
... Really?
Where could Red Sox turn for help in baseball ops?
Jim Bowden, ESPN — The Wellesley native served as GM in Cincinnati and Washington for 15 years. His ESPN columns offer outstanding commentary on player personnel matters.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/08/03/soxpresident/Jia0InapXq5H5Vn9vYkryN/story.html?event=event25
You can guess who wrote this.
Where could Red Sox turn for help in baseball ops?
Jim Bowden, ESPN — The Wellesley native served as GM in Cincinnati and Washington for 15 years. His ESPN columns offer outstanding commentary on player personnel matters.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/08/03/soxpresident/Jia0InapXq5H5Vn9vYkryN/story.html?event=event25
You can guess who wrote this.
Marbleheader said:
He was the GM of the Marlins when Henry bought the team, and left to take the Tigers job the year before Henry sold them and bought into the Sox.
Dombrowski seems pretty entrenched in Detroit at this point. He's been there 14 years, has had reasonable success, and he holds the titles of President, CEO, and GM. I think a move to Boston would be a step down.
Rudy Pemberton said:
Dipoto would be a good choice for GM, but doesn't have the resume and track record to be President of Baseball Ops. He not only clashed with Moreno, but he also pulled an end-around on Scioscia, by going directly to the players with advanced scouting data. Given the frustration, it's understandable, but hardly excusable. But maybe working under an "old-hand" like a Dombrowski, Dipoto might be considered "safe."
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
Maybe, but it's also possible that for really major moves, the plan starts as an idea with top management and then it's up to middle management to flesh it out and achieve it. It's not hard to imagine a situation in which LL makes it known to Cherington that he thinks Player X is the right guy for a certain opening, and then it becomes Cherington's job to put together the deal that lands X.
Of course, unless the club is entirely dysfunctional, Cherington would be empowered to push back and make the case that Player X isn't the right guy. But that's a different scenario than having the initiative to identify the priority targets himself, and have them approved (or not) by his bosses.
Again, of course, we can't know how it really goes without being a fly on the wall.
Red(s)HawksFan said:
His contract is also up at the end of the year, his spendthrift owner could kick the bucket on any given day, his team looks to be on the downslope with a lot of big contracts that won't look good pretty quickly and he has a barren farm system. He may want a more stable situation and be willing to forgo the all the titles in front of his name instead of risking that the old man dies and whichever kid takes over and tightens the purse strings. A small step down or laterally for what is seemingly a better situation might be exactly what he's looking for and I'm of the school of thought that the timing of this announcement may have been in part directed at him to hold off on an extension until they can talk to him.
He was at the helm when the team got itself in this position obviously, so one could ask the question if he's the right guy, but we have no idea how much Ilitch had to do with that and there's plenty to think he pulled the strings on a lot of the "go for it" moves he made the last few years.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be all for Dombrowski. But they do not have a bright future in the immediate term and if you want to throw out LL and TE/BC because of where we are now, you can't similarly dismiss the state of the Tigers now and going forward. I think Dombrowski would be a great catch and a solid move towards a new vision that I think this organization needs. I simply was pointing out what the opposition might raise.Rasputin said:
You can't? Oh shit! Thank you, doctor, for the lesson.Rasputin said:
I'm agreeing with you. Reread what I've said, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that Ilitch played a part in at least some of the bad moves he's made.
That being said he has a barren farm system. If they kept that department in tact and brought in DD I think it would be a great move. The guy certainly has the track record.
From Jeff Blair article yesterday over at sportnet.ca:
• Prime Time Sports host Bob McCown said on Friday that his sources suggest Oakland Athletics vice-president and general manager Billy Beane is a candidate to be Paul Beeston’s replacement as president and chief executive officer of the Blue Jays, amid sentiment in the industry that Beane is growing tired of the ongoing stadium melodrama in Oakland.
And now that Larry Lucchino has stepped down as president and CEO of the Boston Red Sox, I wonder if he’ll be a candidate. Lucchino has experience working for owners who have broadcast concerns and was a master of figuring out how to squeeze extra revenue out of an aging facility – Fenway Park – that isn’t soon to be replaced. He is also a cutthroat, backroom manipulator who is not afraid to dabble in the day-to-day baseball operations of his team. Either way, I’m told that Anthopoulos’ job is now considered to be much safer than it was three months ago, and that he might even be a candidate for Beeston’s job.
• Prime Time Sports host Bob McCown said on Friday that his sources suggest Oakland Athletics vice-president and general manager Billy Beane is a candidate to be Paul Beeston’s replacement as president and chief executive officer of the Blue Jays, amid sentiment in the industry that Beane is growing tired of the ongoing stadium melodrama in Oakland.
And now that Larry Lucchino has stepped down as president and CEO of the Boston Red Sox, I wonder if he’ll be a candidate. Lucchino has experience working for owners who have broadcast concerns and was a master of figuring out how to squeeze extra revenue out of an aging facility – Fenway Park – that isn’t soon to be replaced. He is also a cutthroat, backroom manipulator who is not afraid to dabble in the day-to-day baseball operations of his team. Either way, I’m told that Anthopoulos’ job is now considered to be much safer than it was three months ago, and that he might even be a candidate for Beeston’s job.
That might be true, but don't you think that kind of ties Cherington's hands a bit?
For example, if LL really loved Craig and Kelly and told BC to grab them by any means necessary, doesn't that severely retard Cherington's ability to make the best deal possible? I mean, BC is a smart guy and he gets paid a lot of cash. Isn't incumbent upon LL to let Cherington do his job? Especially after LL meddled and failed so terribly with Valentine and Lester, by July of 2014 wouldn't Henry tell him to lay off the baseball ops side of the house?
He is 70. I'm not sure why people think he necessarily is going to go get another high profile job. He is still tied to the PawSox with his own money invested. Maybe he will concentrate on that.
It's possible he goes to do his CEO thing for another team again, 70 isn't dead, but a lot of these articles speculate likes it the only choice he has.
It's possible he goes to do his CEO thing for another team again, 70 isn't dead, but a lot of these articles speculate likes it the only choice he has.
Dave Dombrowski will fit right in at Fenway:
- Massively overpaid for a fat infielder? Check. (At least he was able to dump Fielder).
- Made a half-hearted effort to re-sign his top free-agent starter before ultimately letting him walk? Check. (Yes, I know, Scott Boras, but that 6/$144 offer never stood a chance of being accepted and seemed designed primarily to avoid criticism that the Tigers weren't trying hard enough to keep Max. Ben could learn a thing or two)
- Gave a big contract extension to another starter way before he had to, then watched the pitcher's performance plummet? Check. (Yeah, it's Justin Freakin' Verlander, but still - giving a massive extension two years before he had to?)
I actually do think that Dombrowski would be a good fit as a CEO in Boston, but let's be honest - he's made some moves that would get killed in this town and rightfully so.
- Massively overpaid for a fat infielder? Check. (At least he was able to dump Fielder).
- Made a half-hearted effort to re-sign his top free-agent starter before ultimately letting him walk? Check. (Yes, I know, Scott Boras, but that 6/$144 offer never stood a chance of being accepted and seemed designed primarily to avoid criticism that the Tigers weren't trying hard enough to keep Max. Ben could learn a thing or two)
- Gave a big contract extension to another starter way before he had to, then watched the pitcher's performance plummet? Check. (Yeah, it's Justin Freakin' Verlander, but still - giving a massive extension two years before he had to?)
I actually do think that Dombrowski would be a good fit as a CEO in Boston, but let's be honest - he's made some moves that would get killed in this town and rightfully so.
I suspect that this has been the plan for much longer than the last few days; that in the post-mortem meetings after the 2014 season in October it was decided that Lucchino would step down after the 2015 season and a succession plan was put into place. Lucchino has spent a good amount of his time working the PawSox project this year. This involved Kennedy taking more day-to-day responsibility with LL's supervision on the business side. And this involved someone stepping into the "CEO/Baseball Ops" supervisory role - again with LL's guiding hand, but being phased out of the day-to-day. The Shank article says that Werner "has interest" in the CEO role.
My sinking feeling is that Werner has been, and will be, the next person "in charge" of baseball operations. An outside hire would - rightfully - demand the termination of Cherington and the rest of the existing staff. That's usually how it's done - "getting your own guy" in place. So, if Cherington is staying - and Henry seems to think he is - then the "new" boss needs to be internal. And we're back to Werner.
The trouble is that Werner is a pretty terrible sports executive. He might be a great TV guy and/or executive, but his tenure in San Diego should give everyone frightful chills. His recent work at the top of the pyramid for Liverpool has been....not good. He isn't a "baseball guy" but he's a part-owner, so if he wants to be CEO, he's probably going to get it. And that's terrible, awful, no-good news for Red Sox fans.
And if Werner has been "getting his feet wet" in the CEO role this season...it makes too much sense. Panda was a TV signing; you can totally envision Werner loving the "star for the TV show" and the attendant marketing possibilities. Ditto Hanley - a big name, with a big baseball Q rating. Now, those could easily also fit LL's modus operandi - he's also a starfucker of the highest order. But Werner is both a starfucker AND baseball dumb...and it's hard not to think that he had a big hand in bringing these players in.
Basicially, I'm scared shitless of the pending Werner Era. He's a proven dunderhead who thinks in terms of the "tv show", not the baseball team. If he ends up in charge - or already is - then fans are fucked.
My sinking feeling is that Werner has been, and will be, the next person "in charge" of baseball operations. An outside hire would - rightfully - demand the termination of Cherington and the rest of the existing staff. That's usually how it's done - "getting your own guy" in place. So, if Cherington is staying - and Henry seems to think he is - then the "new" boss needs to be internal. And we're back to Werner.
The trouble is that Werner is a pretty terrible sports executive. He might be a great TV guy and/or executive, but his tenure in San Diego should give everyone frightful chills. His recent work at the top of the pyramid for Liverpool has been....not good. He isn't a "baseball guy" but he's a part-owner, so if he wants to be CEO, he's probably going to get it. And that's terrible, awful, no-good news for Red Sox fans.
And if Werner has been "getting his feet wet" in the CEO role this season...it makes too much sense. Panda was a TV signing; you can totally envision Werner loving the "star for the TV show" and the attendant marketing possibilities. Ditto Hanley - a big name, with a big baseball Q rating. Now, those could easily also fit LL's modus operandi - he's also a starfucker of the highest order. But Werner is both a starfucker AND baseball dumb...and it's hard not to think that he had a big hand in bringing these players in.
Basicially, I'm scared shitless of the pending Werner Era. He's a proven dunderhead who thinks in terms of the "tv show", not the baseball team. If he ends up in charge - or already is - then fans are fucked.
Maybe it's a smoke screen but LL consistently mentions how much he loves Boston and has made it his home. That sentiment seems to appear in every article. It's not something he needs to say. IF you ascribe meaning to that comment, seeing him trudge off to a place like Oakland becomes somewhat harder to believe. Then again, he might just be a management junkie and will not be able to pass up another challenge. But given the incredibly long hours he put into the Red Sox job, I do find it to be a stretch that he'd want to start over, in effect, somewhere else at his age.smastroyin said:
JimD said:
Yeah, I don't quite get the sudden love. I'd add the the above the inability to build a bullpen despite the fact that it's been an Achille's heel for that team, the strange Fister trade, etc. I'd rather be in Boston's position than have Detroit's. I get that he's got "seniority" and gravitas; maybe ok as a CEO, but I'd want to have somebody else making the moves.
John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
You would think so, but most accounts of Lucchino suggest a guy whose vocabulary does not include the phrase "lay off." It may be that stepping down is the closest thing in his repertoire to stepping back.
soxfan121 said:
Curious what's your source for the bolded--I haven't seen any reference to Cherington's long-term prospects in any of the Henry quotes I've seen since the announcement, but I certainly may have missed something.
If Werner ends up in charge of baseball ops, the shark will have officially been jumped.
I don't have first-hand knowledge of what happens in the Red Sox FO, but I have a hard time believing this to be true. It sounds like an incredibly inefficient way to work. And like I said, I've never been a huge LL guy but I don't think that I'd label him inefficient.Savin Hillbilly said:
Boorish? A bully? Self absorbed? Yup. But he's smart and seems to surround himself with smart people and for the most part appears to let them do their jobs. I don't think he has the time to micromanage in the ways that most people in this thread think.
Jason Beck @beckjason 51s51 seconds ago
Tigers announce Al Avila as new general manager, executive VP of baseball operations.
Jon Morosi @jonmorosi 39s39 seconds ago
Dave Dombrowski replaced as #Tigers GM. Al Avila is his replacement.
Bob Nightengale @BNightengale 3m3 minutes ago
Mike Ilitch: I've decided to release Dave from his contract in order to afford him the time to pursue other career opportunities.
Tigers announce Al Avila as new general manager, executive VP of baseball operations.
Jon Morosi @jonmorosi 39s39 seconds ago
Dave Dombrowski replaced as #Tigers GM. Al Avila is his replacement.
Bob Nightengale @BNightengale 3m3 minutes ago
Mike Ilitch: I've decided to release Dave from his contract in order to afford him the time to pursue other career opportunities.