twibnotes said:Few thoughts on Beane:
- believe his daughter was also a factor in his decision to stay in Oakland. She has to be a good deal older now
The opportunity to guide both the Red Sox and the Cubs to win to their first World Series in living memory (basically) would seem to me pretty enticing in itself... and would provide damn good press if Theo wanted to make a run at Commissioner after Manfred.Vegas Sox Fan said:Billy Beane is a stretch but would Theo be any more of a stretch? Let's assume Lucky is the reason he left, wouldn't Lucky leaving and the promise of more power and some equity be pretty enticing?
Regarding your last point, I would also add that his sabermetric advantage has come and gone as other organizations have gradually caught up. So the overcoming low payrolls with an analytical leg up mostly no longer exists and he's now left with the near impossible challenge of winning it all with one of the lowest payrolls. That has to wear on him year after yeartwibnotes said:Few thoughts on Beane:
- believe his daughter was also a factor in his decision to stay in Oakland. She has to be a good deal older now
- he may be frustrated by the A's inability to get a new park
- he probably wants a shot at a WS, and this pattern of moving soon to be expensive guys like Donaldson is unlikely to get him there
Duquette knows major league talent. Cherrington doesn't.JimD said:Cherington is quite possibly on track to become the new Dan Duquette - I can see him getting replaced and the next CEO and GM going on a sustained run with the foundation of players he put in place (and Ben getting little credit from the media and Johnny Burger King).
I'm just trying to get a deal done. Masterson got $10,000,000 for one year.Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:Yeah, that package is a bit aggressive.
P'tucket said:Honest question for the Beane fans: what does he have up his sleeve at this point that the industry hasn't caught up to?
My initial thought re: BB is that he's done a great job with the resources at his disposal in Oakland, although putting more money in his lap doesn't automatically mean greater success. The coronation seems premature.
Yea, there hasn't been much to prefer about the Cherington era over the Theo era, but the difference in the international program has been astounding. We cant really judge any of these guys until they hit the majors, but under Eddie Romero they seem to have hit on one of the best value signings literally every year going back to 2012.OCD SS said:Whomever takes the reins, I hope there is at least as much focus on international/ amateur player scouting/ development/ procurement as there is currently, and think it makes a good deal of sense to keep that current team in place.
I don't see this at all.SemperFidelisSox said:Whoever accepts the position may have to do so knowing it will be expected of him to keep Farrell and Cherrington. Then the question becomes who would be willing to take this job knowing they can't hire their own GM and manager, at least not right away.
Forgive me for omitting the smiley.BeantownIdaho said:A. Do you really go around looking for one sentence in a paragraph long post to point out as needing it's own thread?
OR
B. You really think that LL needs a thank you thread - If that is indeed correct you should start one.
oumbi said:My question is for those of you who watch the Sox organization closely, or at least a lot more closely than I do. In terms of player acquisition (FA, trades, draft, etc.) has it been Cherington or Lucchino who has had the largest role in decisions since Theo left?
JimBoSox9 said:Guys, Billy Beane isn't coming to Boston. We've danced this dance before. At least wait for a rumor before going nuts.
10% is about the ownership stake that Werner holds, per this 2013 article by Speier. Lucchino has a much smaller stake than him, states the same article. Henry is credited with holding 40%.fineyoungarm said:Estimated value of the team usually is around 2.1 billion. 10% of the club should be attractive. Plus a % of the profits and salary.Yes, I am guessing. Yes, I know I should not.
2 - 3% was ineffective tongue in cheek. Never again. (Although it probably would get Beane here - or even bring Branch Rickey back from the grave.)Drek717 said:10% is about the ownership stake that Werner holds, per this 2013 article by Speier. Lucchino has a much smaller stake than him, states the same article. Henry is credited with holding 40%.
If Lucchino is really entertaining going to another club he would obviously be selling his shares back to the remaining owners. I could see that being used as a bargaining chip, but we're probably talking more like 2-3% at best. Still a huge amount of money, and I'm sure holding any meaningful stake in a ML franchise is a huge status symbol throughout the game. If they want a baseball ops exec. over the GM a la Lucchino they can come up with some damn nice bait for the hook to be sure.
Well, here's an out of the box suggestion: Jed Hoyer. He's part of the family, was once co-GM with Cherington, etc.SemperFidelisSox said:Whoever accepts the position may have to do so knowing it will be expected of him to keep Farrell and Cherrington. Then the question becomes who would be willing to take this job knowing they can't hire their own GM and manager, at least not right away.
Heres the part that made my head explode:Eddie Jurak said:BTW, an article about Lucchino's departure made the front page of the Globe today, with a byline that almost made my head explode.
Kennedy would take on only one of Lucchinos roles, that of club president. According to sources close to the Red Sox, Werner is interested in taking over as the clubs chief executive.
That is an unusual by-line, but this is the biggest news out of Yawkey Way since the 2004 title happened. It speaks well for Speier to be assigned this big a story with the paper's "big name" baseball reporter.Eddie Jurak said:Well, here's an out of the box suggestion: Jed Hoyer. He's part of the family, was once co-GM with Cherington, etc.
BTW, an article about Lucchino's departure made the front page of the Globe today, with a byline that almost made my head explode.
Rasputin said:
We don't really have any way of knowing. GMs are in charge of player transactions. Transactions the size of Hanley Ramirez, Pablo Sandoval, and the Porcello extension don't get done without ownership input. Does that mean Lucchino has the authority to make those deals even if Cherington thought they were a bad idea? We don't really have any way of knowing.
“[Lucchino] is a pedal to the metal guy. You can call him a micromanager. He’s involved in every decision. I say micromanager because Jack Welch once said that micromanaging is highly underrated as a management tool. There’s no doubt Larry is in charge and continues to be in charge. You can ask anybody in the Red Sox, I’d be surprised if anybody would doubt that, or say that.’’
derekson said:
I think most everyone perceived that line of explanations as mostly trying to help Lucchino save face after a decade plus of good service to Henry and the Red Sox.
I think the timing really lends credence to the thought that this is the beginning of a real organizational shakeup at the top. If you just wanted to transition quietly at President and give more power to Cherington, then you probably do it quietly in October. This amount of lead time points to a reevaluation of the entire front office, or at least the placement of someone new in charge.
Lucchino’s clout in the Sox front office appeared to wane after the collapse of 2011 and subsequent firing of popular manager Terry Francona.
After the resignation of Epstein in the winter of 2011-12, it was Lucchino who overruled new GM Ben Cherington and hired Bobby Valentine as Sox manager. In the spring of 2014 Lucchino lowballed free-agent-to-be Jon Lester, and Lester was eventually dealt to Oakland at the trading deadline.
How about this for starters? Why does any major league team need (or want) a president AND a chief executive? Especially if they are different people. It's a baseball team - not a multinational corporation. (Unless, the CEO position will go to the person, who really will run baseball operations and be used to try and attract a "special talent".)timlinin8th said:Heres the part that made my head explode:
nattysez said:CHB getting the scoop on LL leaving was ... unsurprising. In case you were wondering how the CHB and Dentist were going to try to save Cherington without completely throwing LL under the bus:
Agreed. Favorite thing number two for me is the notion that the Sox continually tar guys on the way out. A review of the what we heard following the departure of many guys over the last ten years would reveal the opposite. Tito was a notable and massive exception in my view. For example, they couldn't get Lester done but did we hear ONE bad thing about him? Maybe we did but I don't recall it.DrewDawg said:
This idea that Boston is the only city that has negative things come out when people leave is on of my favorite things on these boards.
Actually, the Red Sox probably does qualify as a multinational corporation, since the Sox send players to the DSL and VWL every year, and appear to still be running their Dominican academy year-round.fineyoungarm said:How about this for starters? Why does any major league team need (or want) a president AND a chief executive? Especially if they are different people. It's a baseball team - not a multinational corporation. (Unless, the CEO position will go to the person, who really will run baseball operations and be used to try and attract a "special talent".)
Somebody get Schilling on the phone!Buzzkill Pauley said:And now that the Boston Red Sox outright owns their AAA affiliate as well, there'll need to be oversight and management of the Paw Sox' operations, and that's another thing which quite frankly I don't want the head baseball guy to have to think about. Unless anyone seriously wants to argue that navigation through Rhode Island politics is likely to add value to the MLB club.
Stop making sense. (I was sort of figuring that out as I was writing - another bad sign. Whichever title he has, there is an enormous amount of non-pure baseball work to do.)Buzzkill Pauley said:Actually, the Red Sox probably does qualify as a multinational corporation, since the Sox send players to the DSL and VWL every year, and appear to still be running their Dominican academy year-round.
And now that the Boston Red Sox outright owns their AAA affiliate as well, there'll need to be oversight and management of the Paw Sox' operations, and that's another thing which quite frankly I don't want the head baseball guy to have to think about. Unless anyone seriously wants to argue that navigation through Rhode Island politics is likely to add value to the MLB cSto
Quite possible. However, given the fact that LL is taking the fall for recent failings doesnt that at least somewhat imply hes got a lot of responsibility here? We are aware of some bad calls hes made (Bobby V) and his involvement with Lester. Its very plausible to me that hes led the push at the ML level on larger decisions.John Marzano Olympic Hero said:Duquette knows major league talent. Cherrington doesn't.
TheoShmeo said:I understand that Larry is the whipping boy for many but (1) look at the scoreboard -- 3 titles and of course the breakthrough on his watch -- on his watch; (2) those picking on certain individual decisions and attributing them all to LL are taking some liberties since we really don't know who is responsible for what and the most likely explanation is that most of the key decisions involved input and involvement of LL, the GM at the time, JH and TW, among others; (3) one thing we do know is that the pivotal deal for the 2007 champion was made when Theo was on hiatus; and (4) LL's pedigree strongly suggests a substantial amount of grey matter and it's often not a good thing when really smart people leave organizations.
1. I don't see why. We don't know the level of his contribution but going to the least positive way to explain things seems unfair to me. We don't know how to assign credit or blame but I generally think that it's safe to credit the CEO for his role in success. He usually plays a role in putting people in place, creating an overall culture and driving things in the direction chosen.Savin Hillbilly said:
(1): This correlation supports any interpretation from "without LL we don't win a single one of them" to "without LL we win twice as many". I think it's a pretty good bet that neither of those is true, and I'll even concede that the former is more plausible than the latter. But no reading of that track record more positive than "he wasn't bad enough to keep them from winning three times" can be safely counted on.
(2): Is anybody positively "attributing" recent bad moves to LL, as opposed to pointing out that he certainly played some kind of role in them and it's entirely possible that he may have been the driver behind them?
(3): This is pretty reductionist. The 2007 team included a long list of key contributors, only two of whom were acquired while Theo was on hiatus. (It also glosses over the question of whether having Hanley and Anibal on the roster might not have helped us win a title or two in the 2008-2012 stretch.)
(4): Fair point, but it can also be a good thing when very smart people leave organizations if they've been deploying their intelligence in a way that disrupts rather than facilitates good team decision-making. Whether this is true of LL or not is another question; I'm just saying that the value of intelligence in promoting organizational goals can depend a lot on the personality of its possessor.
Tomclash said:Lucchino is the best CEO this team has ever had and it's not even close. He also gave Epstein his start and his first GM job. There are three rings during his tenure with the Sox. He's been involved in major sporting events for close to 50 years. He helped build or refurbish three great ballparks. Fans can't really complain too much about his tenure in Boston. The guy has had a pretty impressive career.
3 out of the last 4 years have been poor, including the last two, during which the team has not competed for the division title or wild card. The fish rots from the head and he's the head. That's why he's going.
WenZink said:
What other CEO's have the Red Sox had? John Harrington? It's only in the past 40 years that the Sox have had a CEO that was not the principal owner.
Yes, Lucchino was better than Harrington. He brought in great people to the organization. He also had the benefit of John Henry's vast resources, so that when it came time to throw nearly $300 million at restoring a 90+ year old ball park, there was no financial hurdle.
The problem with LL, was that since he was there from the beginning of the new regime, he was able to be involved in too many aspects of the team. Because he had influence in both the business aspects AND the on-the-field interests, it became impossible for Lucchino to look at either with an isolated, objective perspective. The Red Sox sorely need a new organizational alignment. It will lead to better execution and, most important, clearer accountability. In short, we won't have "Larry Lucchino to kick around any more," and to blame for everything and anything that goes wrong.
DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Do you have first-hand knowledge of this statement or is it just your opinion?
I get that Lucchino is a lightning rod on this board but people behaving as if they understand the Sox front-office dynamics well is laughable. As is often noted here and in the media sub-forum, virtually every take we get about how the Sox (and all other sports teams) operate comes with a fair degree of spin. All we know is that the Sox have had an unprecedented degree of success since Lucchino, Henry and Werner et all arrived.
It is clear he has had some missteps by such as reportedly pushing for Valentine after Francona appeared to lose the team (if most reports are to be believed - it was not Lucchino who doomed Francona but the team itself who reportedly tuned him out down the stretch) and he was clearly part of the decision making process when the Sox signed Crawford etc. However its hard to know what his true flaws are because it seems as if nobody here has a true idea of how the Sox front-office operates on a day-to-day basis. Forgive me if that isn't the case.
WenZink said:
That is really a stupid question. I've never been in the same room with LL, so unless he tapes his conversations, ala Nixon, I'll never have first hand knowledge. But it is more than my opinion. There's a clear consensus that Luchhino was a factor in Theo's Gorilla Suit escape in 2005, his involvement in selection of Valentine, (as you, yourself, acknowledge, without first-hand knowledge, I assume) and his botched negotiations with Jon Lester.
So I consider your question laughable. I will never know the extent of Lucchino's involvement in any particular thing, but only a naif would deny that he had no involvement in baseball ops. It was part of his job! I just think it's better if the Admin side is separated from the Baseball OPS at a high level, so there will be better accountability. Ben Cherington may either be given a free pass for certain decisions or he is being blamed unfairly. Such has been the case with LL's role in the club.
DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
I don't know the nature of the relationship between Theo and Lucchino but the evidence suggests that it was pretty strained at the very end. While I am reasonably certain Theo is a bright guy and he clearly had a hand in the Sox successes of the early aughts, he also had some missteps along the way. The fact that Epstein clashed with the guy who gave him his first chance and then paved the way for a job with the team he grew up rooting for says things about both men, not just Lucchino.
Finally, I acknowledged that he reportedly pushed for Valentine - I have no evidence that he actually did. However I doubt that he alone was the deciding factor so Henry and Werner deserve some blame there too. The fact is, everything you've posted about Lucchino is largely based on the media reports and from where I sit, the guy has been portrayed, fairly or not, as the heavy in the Sox organization. That role is not one that typically leads to favorable press so forgive me if I am not celebrating the departure of one of the main architects of the Sox recent success.
For me, at least, him leaving may not be a positive for the future of the Red Sox.
Why would it matter to them for you to know this? It would create a lot less discussion on SOSH but otherwise why would they say more than they would need too. Fan opinion doesn`t matter in this.WenZink said:
In my original post, I stated that Lucchino was a catch-all for "everything and anything" that has gone wrong. So we are in agreement.
Lucchino was a huge positive for the Henry & Co ownership, especially at the beginning. But his time has passed. I 'd like to see a clearer delineation between the business interests and baseball operations. Give the baseball ops a budget and, barring complete mis-execution, give them a few years to demonstrate their value. For example, If there is a dictate such as "No long-term contracts to pitchers over 30," I want to know that it comes from the baseball ops, and not from the business side. As it stands today, I don't know where it comes from.
keninten said:Why would it matter to them for you to know this? It would create a lot less discussion on SOSH but otherwise why would they say more than they would need too. Fan opinion doesn`t matter in this.
Accountability has fuck all to do with whether the public knows who makes the rules.WenZink said:
Accountability matters greatly to the efficiency of an organization going forward.
WenZink said:
Accountability matters greatly to the efficiency of an organization going forward.
How will you hold them accountable?WenZink said:
Accountability matters greatly to the efficiency of an organization going forward.
The Beane debate probably belongs in its own thread (or not on SoSH at all from some comments) but it's possibly worth pointing out an important difference in the family situation: Last time, moving across country would also have meant either he or his ex would be across the country from their daughter. This time, Tara and the twins would presumably stay with him if he made the move.Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:It was one of the reasons. That daughter is now grown up. But he's remarried and has twins that are still young.
j-man said:u need to sell in 2016 because building the red sox back up to tittle contenders will take 2-3 years
Red(s)HawksFan said:
Accountability to whom? You? Fans in general? HA!
As long as the people within the organization know what's what, that should be the end of it. They're not accountable to you or anyone else outside of the organization when it comes to contract philosophies and policies.
So why do you have to know?WenZink said:
yes. We're in agreement. Accountability matters greatly to the efficiency of an organization. HA! indeed. I was talking about accountability within the organization. Get it now?