Montreal Rays?
- Thread starter Curll
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Seems like a natural fit. The last team that played in Montreal did so in an empty, dump of a stadium as well.
The Pedro Martinez/John Wetteland work stoppage killed baseball in Miontreal. That team was destined for greatness. And then you had the owner.
That said, I've spent a fair amount of time in Tampa recently on business. And even rabid sports fans acknowledge that the area has no business with teams in three major sports. The corporate structure just is not there. Not enough big companies. And that's what they need to get a new stadium, and a new stadium is essential.
That said, I've spent a fair amount of time in Tampa recently on business. And even rabid sports fans acknowledge that the area has no business with teams in three major sports. The corporate structure just is not there. Not enough big companies. And that's what they need to get a new stadium, and a new stadium is essential.
I'd wager the Nationals own the name and all licensing rights and revenues from the name.the1andonly3003 said:
I'll believe it when I see it. Bit I'd LOVE to see it.
As dcmissle mentioned, the strike was devastating. Those Expos probably would have won it all, but even if they had won just one playoff series, it's probably enough to get them a new park, like Seattle's 1995 ALDS over the Yankees did.
As dcmissle mentioned, the strike was devastating. Those Expos probably would have won it all, but even if they had won just one playoff series, it's probably enough to get them a new park, like Seattle's 1995 ALDS over the Yankees did.
Be a nice fit in the AL East, with a natural rival in Toronto and another stadium for Sox fans to own.
I've been saying this since Montreal packed their stadium for Spring Training games last Spring. Montreal is a huge city with people who have money to spend, and when they had good teams they drew incredible crowds. A lot of people like to complain than Canada doesn't draw baseball crowds, but Toronto was the first city in professional sports to draw 4 million fans in a year. If not for the strike, and Jeffrey Loria, I imagine the Expos would be quite successful right now and they're currently lobbying for a team. They have the money and the population to support it. Why not?
The Montreal construction industry and municipal government are notoriously corrupt, and Montreal freeways, bridges, buildings and stadia collapse with astonishing regularity. Don't move anything to Montreal if you want it to stay upright. The Rays are better off waiting for the next Gulf hurricane to dispose of the Trop and its catwalks once and for all.Rudy Pemberton said:
Nothing against Montreal, but if the Rays move...
why not to Santo Domingo DR. Or San Juan PR.
Or, so long as one is dreaming and ignoring corporate realitie$, Havana?
why not to Santo Domingo DR. Or San Juan PR.
Or, so long as one is dreaming and ignoring corporate realitie$, Havana?
I would guess Expansion will occur.
Both Utah and Montreal can support a team.
North Carolina/South Carolina can support a team.
32 teams is balanced and can make the schedule work in a not crazy way.
Both Utah and Montreal can support a team.
North Carolina/South Carolina can support a team.
32 teams is balanced and can make the schedule work in a not crazy way.
That's a tad harsh although there's a kernel of truth there regarding the construction industry. Just a bit of a west coast bias Sprowl?Sprowl said:
As for public funding it would have to be a private/public partnership .. No way the city would go it alone. I think the provincial government is kicking in some money for the hockey stadium being built in Quebec City.
I think the team would do very well there.
I thought Tampa's big attendance problem was in major part a result of the stadium being in a lousy location?
They had a great team in the late '70s/early '80s. Lots of talent, interesting personalities, a mix of a lot of different exciting skills... they could pitch, they had a guy who could steal just about anything, they had bashers.
But, in the end, a metropolitan area with close to four million people (37% larger than Tampa/St. Pete) drew under a million seven times after 1990. The Bay Rays drew 1.45 million this year. Montreal reached that figure twice in its last 11 seasons. Granted, the last two were partially played in Puerto Rico because la SO got even emptier after the announcement. SO is not a plus, either - truly ugly ballpark.
Baseball has to support 81 home games, so it's far less flexible than football in terms of location. That's why in order to get to 30, baseball doubles up in New York, Chicago and LA. They have to be careful about expansion. And money makes free agency tricky (Canadian teams have trouble). But I'd take a hard look at Mexico City if it were anywhere near feasible logistically. As for the US, I don't know. Charlotte, Portland, San Antonio, Vegas and maybe Indianapolis or Nashville are possibilities. You'd need a stadium, and a lot of funding to get the team anchored. I don't think SLC has the population to support a team.
But, in the end, a metropolitan area with close to four million people (37% larger than Tampa/St. Pete) drew under a million seven times after 1990. The Bay Rays drew 1.45 million this year. Montreal reached that figure twice in its last 11 seasons. Granted, the last two were partially played in Puerto Rico because la SO got even emptier after the announcement. SO is not a plus, either - truly ugly ballpark.
Baseball has to support 81 home games, so it's far less flexible than football in terms of location. That's why in order to get to 30, baseball doubles up in New York, Chicago and LA. They have to be careful about expansion. And money makes free agency tricky (Canadian teams have trouble). But I'd take a hard look at Mexico City if it were anywhere near feasible logistically. As for the US, I don't know. Charlotte, Portland, San Antonio, Vegas and maybe Indianapolis or Nashville are possibilities. You'd need a stadium, and a lot of funding to get the team anchored. I don't think SLC has the population to support a team.
Comfortably Lomb said:
They'd get better attendance in Tampa than they do now in St. Pete. There's more people and younger population.
How much better? No one really knows. They've averaged about 29th in attendance over the last 10 years, with a high of 22 and 23. If they had projections to go from that to averaging at worst 20th if they move to Tampa, then they should do it. If they don't have at least that, it might not be worth it to stay.
Here's a decent editorial from earlier this month
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-new-push-on-rays-stadium/2200475
The lease in at the Trop with Pinellas County (county with St. Pete) is up in 2027, but Pinellas finally is talking about letting the team look elsewhere in the Bay Area, so they supposedly will talk with Tampa Sports Authority and have been looking at sites in Tampa. The previous mayor in St. Pete blocked them from looking outside Pinellas, which sucked for the team because they wanted to capitalize on the playoff runs they had but couldn't pitch a stadium in Tampa. They pitched a new stadium in St. Pete but that went nowhere.
If they got a new stadium in Tampa, they'd have to pay off Pinellas to break the lease, which I read somewhere that MLB might help them out with. For a comparison, for the Sonics, Seattle was paid $40m to break a lease two seasons early. I'm figuring it'd be less since they wouldn't be leaving the market but who knows.
Doesn't "Vancouver Rays" roll right off the tongue?BCsMightyJoeYoung said:That's a tad harsh although there's a kernel of truth there regarding the construction industry. Just a bit of a west coast bias Sprowl?
As for public funding it would have to be a private/public partnership .. No way the city would go it alone. I think the provincial government is kicking in some money for the hockey stadium being built in Quebec City.
As for public/private partnerships to build a ballpark, those are often a bit, uhm, unbalanced.
Utah isn't quite ready to be a major league market, but is trending that direction for sure.Niastri said:
Montreal, on the other hand, is pretty solid as a market as long as Sprowl's aforementioned construction corruption and a wild fluctuation of the Canadian dollar don't interfere.
Just have to review what Bud had to say. If it was "Not on my watch", it might be time. If it was "Over my dead body", we might have to wait a year or two...
Having the Expos in the NL was so stupid. Montreal Boston and Montreal Toronto are such natural rivalries.
Well, Toronto wasn't in MLB in 1969, and the Bruins-Habs rivalry didn't become a big deal until a few years later. Plus, Walter O'Malley wanted Montreal in the NL since he had many fond memories of the city due to its years as the Dodger AAA affiliate. The AL wasn't consulted, that stuff was on a league-wide basis than an MLB-wide basis.
What killed the Expos was a terrible stadium, terrible marketing, and terrible ownership, with an assist from MLB in terms of screwing over the Expos on broadcasting range. They were so popular in the 80s that the Jays ran crying to MLB and stopped Expo games being broadcast coast-to-coast, which cut the franchise's appeal off at the knees. Since Canadian media is so concentrated in Toronto, that really hurt the team. At the same time the franchise inexplicably stopped marketing outside of Quebec, which hurt their appeal in Eastern Ontario, the Maritimes, and the border regions of the US like upstate NY and Vermont.
A new Expos team (and I think they'd have to be called the Expos - if not, tell Washington to change their stupid Walgreen's logo) will come with a new stadium, new owners and almost certainly better marketing and broadcast deals than the previous Expos had. If the Expos were having their problems in 2012 rather than 2002, that alone probably keeps the team in Montreal - no way TSN and RDS (French TSN) turn their nose up at 162 games worth of content. Not when Rogers is getting 650,000 households a night watching the Blue Jays finish .500.
You get a downtown stadium that people can walk to from their office or a restaurant on Ste-Catherine street, you get the team on TV and radio, and you promote the stars and the brand (go to Montreal - the logo is EVERYWHERE) and you bet your ass you'll have 2-3 million fans in the park, depending on how good the team is, and a lot of profits.
What killed the Expos was a terrible stadium, terrible marketing, and terrible ownership, with an assist from MLB in terms of screwing over the Expos on broadcasting range. They were so popular in the 80s that the Jays ran crying to MLB and stopped Expo games being broadcast coast-to-coast, which cut the franchise's appeal off at the knees. Since Canadian media is so concentrated in Toronto, that really hurt the team. At the same time the franchise inexplicably stopped marketing outside of Quebec, which hurt their appeal in Eastern Ontario, the Maritimes, and the border regions of the US like upstate NY and Vermont.
A new Expos team (and I think they'd have to be called the Expos - if not, tell Washington to change their stupid Walgreen's logo) will come with a new stadium, new owners and almost certainly better marketing and broadcast deals than the previous Expos had. If the Expos were having their problems in 2012 rather than 2002, that alone probably keeps the team in Montreal - no way TSN and RDS (French TSN) turn their nose up at 162 games worth of content. Not when Rogers is getting 650,000 households a night watching the Blue Jays finish .500.
You get a downtown stadium that people can walk to from their office or a restaurant on Ste-Catherine street, you get the team on TV and radio, and you promote the stars and the brand (go to Montreal - the logo is EVERYWHERE) and you bet your ass you'll have 2-3 million fans in the park, depending on how good the team is, and a lot of profits.
dcmissle said:
This times a million. They were an awesome team - so easy to root for. As an aside, I went to college in Vermont and took weekend trips to Montreal in the early 00's. You could get general admission tickets for one dollar Canadian, which of course is less than a buck in US Dollars. It was great to watch MLB baseball for so cheap but the whole Olympic Complex sucked so much shit ascetically... Here you have a very appealing city and then a mass of concrete at the end of the island where they expect people will choose to go.
And during the times I was up there, Expos Fans used to drive up and down the streets, hanging out of their cars waving Expos Flags trying to get people to come to the games. But the strike really seemed to kill baseball up there for all but the hardcore fans.
Because poverty?dhellers said:
Sure a Santo Domingo team could excite the masses in the DR. But how many of those people could pay $50 USD for a ticket? And what's the value of the DR television market? Not going to happen, alas.
the1andonly3003 said:
Monbo Jumbo said:
They do, but I have no doubt that MLB would facilitate some sort of arrangement with the Nats if the Expos name was perceived as a winner for all of baseball. Washington already sold the rights to Youppi, the Expos' mascot, to the NHL Canadiens.
The Expos were named after the World's Fair, which was nearly 50 years ago. If a return to Montreal were to be happen for the 2017 season, it would make for an appropriate re-launching. Further, it would coincide with Canada's 150th birthday. Otherwise, I suspect the franchise would adopt a different name.
On another note, former Expo Warren Cromartie (who was part of the greatest defensive outfield I've ever seen, along with rocket-armed Ellis Valentine and a young, in-his-prime Andre Dawson) founded the Montreal Baseball Project a couple of years ago.
Get thee to a google. Start with the Charbonneau Commission, move on to the resignations of Mayors Vaillancourt, Tremblay and Applebaum, take a look at SNC-Lavalin, and the testimony of Antonio Accurso. It's still up in the air whether the Mafia or the Hell's Angels were taking a bigger bite out of the municipal treasuries. Eventually the city of Montreal had to hire corrupt construction companies to do emergency work because they couldn't find ANY companies that were not already implicated in bribery, overcharging and shoddy workmanship.Hoplite said:
I went to a Expos-Sox game at the big O back in the mid 90s. They ran out of beer. If the Rays move to MTL, these sorts of tragic events cannot be allowed to happen.
In all seriousness, a beautiful new stadium in downtown MTL where I could watch live MLB games 2 hours closer to home for half the money of going to Fenway would be awesome.
In all seriousness, a beautiful new stadium in downtown MTL where I could watch live MLB games 2 hours closer to home for half the money of going to Fenway would be awesome.
drleather2001 said:
The brand is huge, they'd have to be called the Expos. It wouldn't be like naming a new Cleveland NFL team something else, but it would be worse than Washington not being the Senators.
drleather2001 said:
But who cares? The name has buy-in from the public. Naming a team after a sock color or dodging streetcars when you play at Chavez Ravine is much more ridiculous, but they stick around because that's what the public want. Plus the Expo was the apex of Montreal's prominence on the Canadian and world stage, so it brings a lot of good vibes to people in the area. Way more than the Olympics, that's for sure.
Also, don't underestimate the appeal of a name that's the same in English and French.
As a Charlotte native, I would love to see the Rays move to Charlotte. I would buy season tickets tomorrow to know the Sox would be coming to town 3 times a year for roughly 9 games or so. Charlotte just built a beautiful downtown stadium for the AAA team. Right now it only holds approx 15,000 but I think it's expandable to seat 35,000 or so.
Rough Carrigan said:
That's a bit off. He hasn't attempted to get a stadium in Tampa. St. Pete blocked all efforts to even look across the bay. He tried to get one in St. Pete, but that failed.
indiantrailsoxfan said:
Wouldn't MLB want a brand new stadium rather than an a well-done expansion/renovation?
Don't forget that MLB makes more money from local TV than other major North American sports do.
Tampa-St. Pete is the nation's 14th largest TV market, and Rays games get good ratings. Sternberg would face an uphill climb to convince his fellow owners to let him abandon Tampa Bay for a smaller market like Charlotte (25th), SLC (33rd), or Las Vegas (42nd). They would probably prefer to open their wallets and help the Rays break their lease.
Tampa-St. Pete is the nation's 14th largest TV market, and Rays games get good ratings. Sternberg would face an uphill climb to convince his fellow owners to let him abandon Tampa Bay for a smaller market like Charlotte (25th), SLC (33rd), or Las Vegas (42nd). They would probably prefer to open their wallets and help the Rays break their lease.
I hope they make it to Charlotte if they do move. I would love to be able to go to a lot more Red Sox games. Sox don't come to Atlanta often enough, and Charlotte is a much easier drive and back for a game from here than Tampa.
indiantrailsoxfan said:
Eff that. Move them to the triangle and make the Durham Bulls a major league team. They're already the Rays' AAA affiliate.
NC people are ridiculously overrepresented in Fenway IMHO from casual observations, based on geography and population. I agree with this sentiment. No legit fanbase south of the Nats and Cincy is 460 miles to the NW, St. Louis 714.indiantrailsoxfan said:
It's surprising to me how they didn't get a team during BOA's heyday.
Many more details about the maneuverings to get baseball back to Montreal emerging:
http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/quebec/201411/07/01-4816647-retour-du-baseball-lequipe-dactionnaires-prend-forme.php
If you don't read French: basically some big-money quebecois, including Bronfman-fils, and Bell are scheming. After the success of the spring-training games in Montreal, contacted several teams to express their interest and seriousness in bringing baseball back to Montreal. Specifically, they had two meetings with Rays ownership last spring. Speculation that it could be challenging to come up with enough cash to both buy a team and build a new stadium….and that governmental involvement in financing a stadium is very unlikely.
In parallel, it looks like there is about to be a breakthrough in the impasse between the Rays and St. Petersburg, with the city finally allowing the team to look at other sites in the region, i.e. Tampa. http://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg-and-tampa-bay-rays-could-be-near-agreement-to-allow/2206014
The new St. Pete Mayor has made it a priority to resolve the situation with the Rays, plus it's sounding like the Trop land is becoming more valuable and there is interest from developers in doing other things on the site that could be of interest to the city.
My take has been that the Montreal thing is leverage for Stu to get a sweet stadium deal from the various Tampa Bay area governments. Looks like that could play out quite nicely for him, and it's sounding like there could be some momentum to get it resolved sooner rather than later. New stadium and signing a huge new local TV deal in 2017…watch out! We may see a payroll north of $100m!!
http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/quebec/201411/07/01-4816647-retour-du-baseball-lequipe-dactionnaires-prend-forme.php
If you don't read French: basically some big-money quebecois, including Bronfman-fils, and Bell are scheming. After the success of the spring-training games in Montreal, contacted several teams to express their interest and seriousness in bringing baseball back to Montreal. Specifically, they had two meetings with Rays ownership last spring. Speculation that it could be challenging to come up with enough cash to both buy a team and build a new stadium….and that governmental involvement in financing a stadium is very unlikely.
In parallel, it looks like there is about to be a breakthrough in the impasse between the Rays and St. Petersburg, with the city finally allowing the team to look at other sites in the region, i.e. Tampa. http://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg-and-tampa-bay-rays-could-be-near-agreement-to-allow/2206014
The new St. Pete Mayor has made it a priority to resolve the situation with the Rays, plus it's sounding like the Trop land is becoming more valuable and there is interest from developers in doing other things on the site that could be of interest to the city.
My take has been that the Montreal thing is leverage for Stu to get a sweet stadium deal from the various Tampa Bay area governments. Looks like that could play out quite nicely for him, and it's sounding like there could be some momentum to get it resolved sooner rather than later. New stadium and signing a huge new local TV deal in 2017…watch out! We may see a payroll north of $100m!!