No Town Hall this year at Red Sox Winter Weekend

[CR67dream]

I think we’re actually rather close… What I find frustrating is the disconnect between the promise of ownership apparently understanding what they need to do and having a solid approach and then upping the degree of difficulty by not spending for short-term improvement in an area of need. It doesn’t rise to the level of angst, but at this point we’re looking at diminishing options. Laying out a great plan only matters if you actually follow through on it.

Yeah, we're not far apart, and as I said in another thread, I think a lot of why I hold onto hope is because I'm as high as hell on Breslow. Time will tell if that's a sound decision on my part. I really do think he deserves a chance.

Then again, I'm generally a wait and see kind of guy, and I'll always admit if I'm wrong, and won't do any victory laps if I'm right. I only want to be right in this instance because it means good things happened. I completely understand and respect the skepticism.

Check out my posts in the Mac Jones bust thread for some context, particularly the longer one on the last page. Ooops.

 

[chawson]

I started following the Sox in earnest in the early 80s, when I was a 9 year old. I recall my father and his buddies being very negative towards ownership then, largely because they let Fisk and Burleson go, and traded Lynn. They saw those guys as the heart of the team, and the cheapskate owners gutted it.

This current frustration, and occasional bursts of anger, originated with the Mookie trade. It’s that simple. He had to go for money reasons, yet we’re 4 years later and a lot of people are wondering where that supposed future investment has gone. We’ve been there before with a different ownership group. The current ones just were here for far rings.

I’m clearly not alone in posting more the last year as a reaction to some of the things I’ve read on the main board. A lot of the statistical stuff makes my eyes glaze over, but what I’ve really had a hard time with is those who attack the “critical” with talk of “entitlement”. I won’t apologize for saying that I do think fans are entitled to an ownership that’s genuinely doing everything they can to put the best product on the field, accounting for all circumstances (cap issues, need for farm growth, all that). IMHO the Sox haven’t done that, and it’s reflected in the fact that they’re made the playoffs all of once in the past five seasons.

And now I read that the “real” window isn’t opening until 2026-2028. We could be one for seven and counting at that point. I do feel like Sox fans deserve better than that.

This touches on the source of a lot of spats on this board. Some of us believe that money is the determining factor above all, and that players will rationally play for whoever offers them the most. Others believe that money is one of several important factors. This boils down to something personal about how we view the world, and may be irreconcilable.

Those who believe the former place the burden on the Red Sox ownership for not spending what it takes. Those who believe the latter think that while the money offered obviously matters, there are, or could be, a variety of factors involved for each player, many of them unknown to us.

I think what we're seeing this offseason is — short of "proof" — but evidence that a lot of would-be targets have wanted to play elsewhere.

There's good nuggets there. Breslow says straight out that interest and fit are variables with free agents. To me that answers some questions. They said flat out they are implementing an overarching philosophy and will bring in the right people. Bailey is an example of that, no?

Thank you for highlighting this. It stuck out as one of the more significant of his comments, reading them again today. I think the perception is that the Sox have been shut out of the offseason — and maybe that's true! — but I see a lot of blameless reasons for why these guys aren't Red Sox.

• Gioliito - Signed with Boston.
• Gray - Wanted to sign with St. Louis and was very public about it.
• Imanaga - Wanted to sign in Chicago, took their offer over higher ones.
• Lugo - Not better than Crawford/Houck/Whitlock.
• Montgomery - Returning to Rangers is his "first choice," reportedly. South Carolinian.
• Nola - Signed very early in the offseason with Philly. Could be worth speculating what Breslow might have offered to get him to reconsider, but clearly it's in the realm of 8/$200M+.
• Rodriguez - Family comfort is significant. Rumored (by Sox Prospects guys) not to consider playing with Alex Cora.
• Snell - Reportedly wants to play in Seattle/West Coast.
• Stroman - Not really an option. Bad character fit. Reportedly close friends with David Price, who rightfully wouldn't recommend Boston. Signed with his hometown team.
• Urias - Not an option.
• Wacha - Not better than Crawford/Houck/Whitlock.
• Yamamoto - Wanted to play in Los Angeles, per Rosenthal.

It's worth considering just how much we would have had to overbid to land some of these guys. And then maybe risk a situation where a player is unhappy here?

 

[GB5]

“Going after expensive free agents”…just so easy to spin., We signed Giolito, we were in it to the end on Yamamoto, we outbid the Cubs on Imanaga..

 

[PapnMillsy]

“Going after expensive free agents”…just so easy to spin., We signed Giolito, we were in it to the end on Yamamoto, we outbid the Cubs on Imanaga..

Does anyone really believe they were in it till the end of Yamamoto? They didn’t even get a second meeting. The fact that we didnt even hear of any offer tells me it was laughably low

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

“We didn’t sign any of the guys because none of the guys wanted to sign with us” is an argument, but I’m not sure it’s a great one. If you want to sign a player, you probably need to be aggressive and proactively make your case; seems like they did that with Giolito, and got him. Reports are they told some other guys “hey we are interested, but only if other stuff falls through” and did not land those guys.

 

[CR67dream]

“Going after expensive free agents”…just so easy to spin., We signed Giolito, we were in it to the end on Yamamoto, we outbid the Cubs on Imanaga..

Does anyone really believe they were in it till the end of Yamamoto? They didn’t even get a second meeting. The fact that we didnt even hear of any offer tells me it was laughably low

You can find pages and pages in the Rumors thread discussing all of this. We're not going to go round and round again. Thanks.

 

[Auger34]

“We didn’t sign any of the guys because none of the guys wanted to sign with us” is an argument, but I’m not sure it’s a great one. If you want to sign a player, you probably need to be aggressive and proactively make your case; seems like they did that with Giolito, and got him. Reports are they told some other guys “hey we are interested, but only if other stuff falls through” and did not land those guys.

not only that but the evidence is based off of media reports. We have no idea if those are true or not (as has been beaten to death when it’s negative)

 

[Rovin Romine]

“We didn’t sign any of the guys because none of the guys wanted to sign with us” is an argument, but I’m not sure it’s a great one.

Shrug. If you put this in a dating context, it's the only one. And it's kind of like that at the end of the day.

 

[CR67dream]

not only that but the evidence is based off of media reports. We have no idea if those are true or not (as has been beaten to death when it’s negative)

That's the great thing about evidence. We all get to look at it and determine how we personally value it.

Isn't that a really, really cool thing?

“We didn’t sign any of the guys because none of the guys wanted to sign with us” is an argument, but I’m not sure it’s a great one.

It's not just that, though. Those comments also tell me that there may have been guys who they didn't see as a fit. Maybe even players we clamor or clamored for here. We just don't know how they value these players internally.

It's maddening, and I begrudge no one their skepticism, but there's enough in what I read from the presser for me to think there is a serious effort to improve the club being put into place. Breslow said they are creating a new "overarching approach" and will hire the right people to implement it. Nobody answered me, but isn't Bailey an indication that that just might be true?

I really can't wrap my head around why my take is controversial at all, or how anyone can be so certain of anything right now. Maybe it's because for me, everything that happened before is history. Can't be changed. Page turned. Anger useless.

I keep saying my hopes can be dashed at any time. My excitement for the new boss could be completely misplaced. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I just think it's cool to talk about, and I think we'll know a lot more (not for us, lol) soon enough.

 

[jbupstate]

Does anyone really believe they were in it till the end of Yamamoto? They didn’t even get a second meeting. The fact that we didnt even hear of any offer tells me it was laughably low

The laughable low talk is such bullcrap. The Yankees wanted him badly… and didn’t get him. Were their offers laughable low?

Yamamoto picked the Dodgers and probably for less because….? He wanted to play for the Dodgers. Simple. Easy. How can anyone hold it against the Sox?

 

[astrozombie]

Man, if I was FSG I would be *thrilled* to be reading this board. Absolutely giddy.

 

[CR67dream]

Man, if I was FSG I would be *thrilled* to be reading this board. Absolutely giddy.

Explain? Half the board's ready to string them up now, and just about everybody else has set the clock to ticking.

That doesn't seem like the best place for them to be with a place like this.

 

[OCD SS]

“We didn’t sign any of the guys because none of the guys wanted to sign with us” is an argument, but I’m not sure it’s a great one. If you want to sign a player, you probably need to be aggressive and proactively make your case; seems like they did that with Giolito, and got him. Reports are they told some other guys “hey we are interested, but only if other stuff falls through” and did not land those guys.

It’s not romance, this is business, and free agency is essentially an auction. If you don’t offer the most money you really can’t then wonder why you didn’t win, or weren’t even considered. Maybe the player’s initial preference is to go elsewhere, but if Boston didn’t offer more, then the Sox didn’t give them a reason to change their mind. Maybe you have to be crazy… maybe in that way it is a bit like a romance.

 

[astrozombie]

Explain? Half the board's ready to string them up now, and just about everybody else has set the clock to ticking.

That doesn't seem like the best place for them to be with a place like this.

As you said, half the board looks at the last 5 years, this offseason, hears the plan from one presser about trying to do well this year and goes "absolutely, yes, this is good". Furthermore, some posters are now throwing out that every free agent who doesn't come to Boston "isn't a good fit" or "never wanted to play here". It's the free agents fault, not Boston putting in solid but losing bids or fielding a shaky team or anything that the team is doing. I'll be honest, I find you fairly even keeled and for myself, I am actually optimistic about the Breslow era. But I don't see them competing this year and speaking only for myself, there seems to be a lot of backtracking already on what expectations are supposed to be.
I promise this isn't defensive, but in another post you said "Am I not being clear? Fuck no. I just don't think they're done yet. If they are, I'll be as pissed as anyone." What would you like to see in this offseason that demonstrates to you that they are not done and going to be competitive this year?

ETA: as for "the clock ticking" I have not gotten that sense. Last season, the pro-Bloomers pointed to 2025 as the year where they were going to be competitive. It seems like that timeline is being pushed back, if anything.

 

[Rovin Romine]

It’s not romance, this is business, and free agency is essentially an auction.

No. It's not.

 

[OCD SS]

No. It's not.

If you’re going to quote my post, please use the whole thing and respond to the entire content of the post. We’ve already established that you have difficulty tracking language that doesn’t conform to your narrow usage; complaining about my syntax is not actually a rebuttal.

To keep this simple for you: at no point in this off-season have the Sox attempted to leverage their considerable financial advantages to land a premium free agent. That those players “really wanted to play elsewhere” is partly an excuse for a lack aggressiveness on the Sox’s part. Maybe the Sox didn’t really want those players, or only did at their price, but that doesn’t change the fact that they’re still looking to improve the pitching staff and have a pile of money sitting in the corner, and the money itself isn’t going to take the mound.

 

[Auger34]

No. It's not.

Is there any reason to be this pedantic? And it’s not a one off thing. This thread has two tangents because of your super pedantic one line posts. I get that you’re a lawyer, I get that you agree with the front offices plan to the nth degree, and I get that you care an incredible amount about syntax but the aggressiveness with which you post comes off as incredibly combative and condescending

 

[CR67dream]

I promise this isn't defensive, but in another post you said "Am I not being clear? Fuck no. I just don't think they're done yet. If they are, I'll be as pissed as anyone." What would you like to see in this offseason that demonstrates to you that they are not done and going to be competitive this year?

Not defensive at all, it's a more than a fair ask. Call me out anytime.

Basically as I've said repeatedly, I have simply decided I can keep my cool until spring training as far as what the team is structured like. I'm cutting a little slack. Basically, they need to demonstrate to me they're willing to make some significant upgrades by then. I have also said I will grab a pitchfork at that point if they haven't. I don't know what more I can say.

What exact moves I'd like to see, that's not as clear cut, but I see the same holes as everyone else. I would not be upset if they grab either of the Boras guys, but they also make me nervous for a variety of reasons I'm too tired to list right now. It's just money and it's not mine, so I'd be happy if they pay up to say 6/160 or so, and bump that up if either one of them is who they really really want, but again, I have no idea of their evaluations. There is no doubt they need a starter of some consequence, and I don't deny the FA options keep shrinking.

We need another RH power bat. I'm pretty sure we'll have one. I like Soler, his defense is not a plus, but man, that Fenway spray chart looks delicious. Yes, I know that's not definitive of anything, but wow. He would be quite formidable Between Rafi and Casas in the lineup. And he'd be fun to watch. But if it's Turner or Duvall, ok, both of those would also bring defensive value.

Then there's trades. They are on record saying they will trade for pitcher. I'd be pretty upset if that doesn't happen, even if it isn't for an absolute stud. One other thing is that I don't think Breslow is nearly as married to the prospects as bloom. I noticed they promoted the guy who ran the last couple (few maybe) drafts into the inner circle, so it seems Breslow wants to know everything about every prospect in the organization. It's a potential minefield for him, but he's got to decide who goes where and for what. I've liked his creativity so far, let's see if he's willing to use some of that draft capital. One of my few issues with Bloom was his inaction. Of course, this also means we would have some pissed off posters if he trades the wrong asset for the wrong return.

Anyway, it's late and I need to wind down, this is by no means everything I could say, but I hope you get the gist. And the clock is definitely ticking.

 

[CR67dream]

Can we please go to our corners for tonight? Thanks!

 

[Rovin Romine]

It’s not romance, this is business, and free agency is essentially an auction. If you don’t offer the most money you really can’t then wonder why you didn’t win, or weren’t even considered. Maybe the player’s initial preference is to go elsewhere, but if Boston didn’t offer more, then the Sox didn’t give them a reason to change their mind. Maybe you have to be crazy… maybe in that way it is a bit like a romance.

View: https://twitter.com/BostonStrong_34/status/1745858507277050362

 

[richgedman'sghost]

For obvious reasons, frankly. The negativity is mainly directed toward the owners and not Breslow.

I was somewhat surprised they won't just rum Breslow out by himself to answer questions during the Town Meeting. I agree that would be a chickenpox and cowardly move by ownership but wouldn't that prevent the booing and chair throwing that Henry et al is so afraid of? I mean the mouth breathers wouldn't boo Breslow would they? @MidnightJones wouldn't boo him would he?

 

[OCD SS]

View: https://twitter.com/BostonStrong_34/status/1745858507277050362

You're aware that not all auctions are like Ebay, right?

For example, let's say the Sox are bidding on a copy of the Declaration of Indepenence and are deemed to be too problematic for the seller to deal with, so they instead reject the higher bid and offer it for private sale at lower (or almost exactly the same amount), the Sox are still not landing the player (and in this case wind up pivoting to more suspect properties and wildly overpaying for a copy of Jodorowsky's Dune book, and wildly overpaying). If the example holds the Sox come to be seen as difficult actors and need to overpay to account for their diminished reputation. The bottom line is that when transactions are moving beyond 10 figures the negotiations do tend to be a bit more complicated

For Imanaga, we don't know the full terms, so we don't know how much more guaranteed money they offered than the Cubs (it's still only 2 years, so that amount is likely not that much), and we don't know what it took the options to vest; if those terms were more difficult then it's not unreasonable to see Imanaga betting on himself and thinking that he would take the Cubs offer, which was larger than the Sox if the options trigger. Most of Breslow's pitching apparatus and analysis is still in Chicago, so it's not a suprise the teams valued him similarly.

Again, the Sox are still looking for a SP when they had a target they liked enough to make an offer on, but wouldn't go far enough to actually land the player. We've seen this play out quite a bit not only this offseason but in previous years as well.

 

[HfxBob]

View: https://twitter.com/BostonStrong_34/status/1745858507277050362

This is wrong. What Speier actually said:

Lefthander Shōta Imanaga’s deal with the Cubs — a creative four-year, $53 million pact that could be worth up to $80 million over five years — became official on Thursday. The Red Sox bid for the Japanese star, but according to a major league source, had limited their offer to a two-year deal with the potential for two additional vesting years.
The Sox’ guaranteed money was slightly more than what the Cubs will pay Imanaga for his first two years

Read that last sentence carefully.

The Cubs total guarantee was significantly more.

 

[Rovin Romine]

This is wrong. What Speier actually said:

Lefthander Shōta Imanaga’s deal with the Cubs — a creative four-year, $53 million pact that could be worth up to $80 million over five years — became official on Thursday. The Red Sox bid for the Japanese star, but according to a major league source, had limited their offer to a two-year deal with the potential for two additional vesting years.
The Sox’ guaranteed money was slightly more than what the Cubs will pay Imanaga for his first two years

Read that last sentence carefully.

The Cubs total guarantee was significantly more.

OK. Exactly how much more was the Cubs offer? You can round to the nearest million.

 

[HfxBob]

This touches on the source of a lot of spats on this board. Some of us believe that money is the determining factor above all, and that players will rationally play for whoever offers them the most. Others believe that money is one of several important factors. This boils down to something personal about how we view the world, and may be irreconcilable.

Those who believe the former place the burden on the Red Sox ownership for not spending what it takes. Those who believe the latter think that while the money offered obviously matters, there are, or could be, a variety of factors involved for each player, many of them unknown to us.

I think what we're seeing this offseason is — short of "proof" — but evidence that a lot of would-be targets have wanted to play elsewhere.



Thank you for highlighting this. It stuck out as one of the more significant of his comments, reading them again today. I think the perception is that the Sox have been shut out of the offseason — and maybe that's true! — but I see a lot of blameless reasons for why these guys aren't Red Sox.

• Gioliito - Signed with Boston.
• Gray - Wanted to sign with St. Louis and was very public about it.
• Imanaga - Wanted to sign in Chicago, took their offer over higher ones.
• Lugo - Not better than Crawford/Houck/Whitlock.
• Montgomery - Returning to Rangers is his "first choice," reportedly. South Carolinian.
• Nola - Signed very early in the offseason with Philly. Could be worth speculating what Breslow might have offered to get him to reconsider, but clearly it's in the realm of 8/$200M+.
• Rodriguez - Family comfort is significant. Rumored (by Sox Prospects guys) not to consider playing with Alex Cora.
• Snell - Reportedly wants to play in Seattle/West Coast.
• Stroman - Not really an option. Bad character fit. Reportedly close friends with David Price, who rightfully wouldn't recommend Boston. Signed with his hometown team.
• Urias - Not an option.
• Wacha - Not better than Crawford/Houck/Whitlock.
• Yamamoto - Wanted to play in Los Angeles, per Rosenthal.

It's worth considering just how much we would have had to overbid to land some of these guys. And then maybe risk a situation where a player is unhappy here?

The unsettling question arises: what about next year's list? Will there be valid reasons to cross all the names off that list too?

 

[HfxBob]

OK. Exactly how much more was the Cubs offer? You can round to the nearest million.

Can't find the year by year breakdown of his salary yet.

But it seems safe to assume that since the Cubs guaranteed 4 years and the Red Sox only guaranteed 2, the difference in total guaranteed money is about $25 million. If I'm wrong about that I will certainly amend.

 

[jbupstate]

The unsettling question arises: what about next year's list? Will there be valid reasons to cross all the names off that list too?

Yes. Some players might have other ideas. They earned the right to hit free agency and they choice what is right financially and best for their family. Money isn’t as important when you exceed $50m. (Not sure if that number but that would be mine). Team fit sure… but being close to home is up there. Damn sure the happiness of my wife and kids comes first since I’m on the road often.

Added. Eflin last offseason chose to stay in Florida over the Red Sox. Eflin could have been that middle of the rotation guy we wouldn’t be looking for this season.

 

[HfxBob]

Yes. Some players might have other ideas. They earned the right to hit free agency and they choice what is right financially and best for their family. Money isn’t as important when you exceed $50m. (Not sure if that number but that would be mine). Team fit sure… but being close to home is up there. Damn sure the happiness of my wife and kids comes first since I’m on the road often.

Players also hire agents like Scott Boras. They don't hire Boras because he knows their family situation and the best location for their lifestyle.

 

[jbupstate]

Players also hire agents like Scott Boras. They don't hire Boras because he knows their family situation and the best location for their lifestyle.

The overall point remains the same even with Boras. Boras wants the top, top dollar for his clients. He also creates (manufactures with unnamed teams) as much competition for the services of the player leading to a choice for the player. The player decides ultimately and I believe once the bidding exceeds a certain threshold money become secondary… maybe it’s just me but I don’t think these guys are mercenaries for hire. (Bauer wanted year to year).

The Sox have an example in Varitek of someone who took less for comfort.

For the record… I’m not disagreeing or agreeing. Just saying I don’t believe free agency in an auction where you bid the most and win. Ohtani and Yamamoto both left real money on the table…. I hope it doesn’t work out for them. Ha

 

[curly2]

This touches on the source of a lot of spats on this board. Some of us believe that money is the determining factor above all, and that players will rationally play for whoever offers them the most. Others believe that money is one of several important factors. This boils down to something personal about how we view the world, and may be irreconcilable.

Those who believe the former place the burden on the Red Sox ownership for not spending what it takes. Those who believe the latter think that while the money offered obviously matters, there are, or could be, a variety of factors involved for each player, many of them unknown to us.

I think what we're seeing this offseason is — short of "proof" — but evidence that a lot of would-be targets have wanted to play elsewhere.



Thank you for highlighting this. It stuck out as one of the more significant of his comments, reading them again today. I think the perception is that the Sox have been shut out of the offseason — and maybe that's true! — but I see a lot of blameless reasons for why these guys aren't Red Sox.

• Gioliito - Signed with Boston.
• Gray - Wanted to sign with St. Louis and was very public about it.
• Imanaga - Wanted to sign in Chicago, took their offer over higher ones.
• Lugo - Not better than Crawford/Houck/Whitlock.
• Montgomery - Returning to Rangers is his "first choice," reportedly. South Carolinian.
• Nola - Signed very early in the offseason with Philly. Could be worth speculating what Breslow might have offered to get him to reconsider, but clearly it's in the realm of 8/$200M+.
• Rodriguez - Family comfort is significant. Rumored (by Sox Prospects guys) not to consider playing with Alex Cora.
• Snell - Reportedly wants to play in Seattle/West Coast.
• Stroman - Not really an option. Bad character fit. Reportedly close friends with David Price, who rightfully wouldn't recommend Boston. Signed with his hometown team.
• Urias - Not an option.
• Wacha - Not better than Crawford/Houck/Whitlock.
• Yamamoto - Wanted to play in Los Angeles, per Rosenthal.

It's worth considering just how much we would have had to overbid to land some of these guys. And then maybe risk a situation where a player is unhappy here?

Not going to quibble with most of these, but I will flag this one:

• Lugo - Not better than Crawford/Houck/Whitlock.

Maybe not, but he showed last year he could be an effective starter. Houck has big trouble the third time through the order, and Whitlock has only been healthy the one season he was a reliever and was handled with kid gloves. I WANT Houck and Whitlock to be effective starters and I am not writing either one off. But both might be more effective as relievers, and with Jansen and Martin both likely to be off the team next year--and with Pivetta and (most likely) Giolito not under contract next year--the Sox will need starters and relievers. If they did like Lugo--and who knows if they did or not--they could have signed him to get some stability for the staff in 2025 and 2026 along with what he would bring in 2024.

 

[chawson]

The unsettling question arises: what about next year's list? Will there be valid reasons to cross all the names off that list too?

I’ve said several times that I think Max Fried is a fit, and we should be in on him. Shane Bieber could be too but there are question marks about his health. Burnes is a possibility but he and his family seem really anchored in California, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Dodgers or Giants make a strong play.

The 2025 rotation could be something like Fried, Bello, Giolito, Crawford, Houck, and I think that could be pretty solid.

Are you implying that the reasons are not valid or are you just frustrated that there are reasons that players signed elsewhere?

 

[HfxBob]

I’ve said several times that I think Max Fried is a fit, and we should be in on him. Shane Bieber could be too but there are question marks about his health. Burnes is a possibility but he and his family seem really anchored in California, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Dodgers or Giants make a strong play.

The 2025 rotation could be something like Fried, Bello, Giolito, Crawford, Houck, and I think that could be pretty solid.

Are you implying that the reasons are not valid or are you just frustrated that there are reasons that players signed elsewhere?

Generally speaking, I'm just not buying the idea that we couldn't have signed at least one of those guys crossed off the list with an aggressive approach - aggressive as in selling the player on your team and your organization, and of course showing them the money.

To me it seems like the reasons come after the fact of them going elsewhere.

 

[CR67dream]

To me it seems like the reasons come after the fact of them going elsewhere.

What about what Breslow said about fit and interest being a big factor with free agents at the "full throttle" presser? Why is it so hard to acknowledge that he actually pointed to this before free agents started signing? It didn't just come out of nowhere.

Now if you want to argue that he was just saying that to get ahead of what is happening now, that's a different argument but not one I think you're making. What people seem to be doing is saying that Breslow didn't present any information that backs up the fact that they expected those two factors to play a part in the process before it started. And that's demonstrably false.

 

[8slim]

This touches on the source of a lot of spats on this board. Some of us believe that money is the determining factor above all, and that players will rationally play for whoever offers them the most. Others believe that money is one of several important factors. This boils down to something personal about how we view the world, and may be irreconcilable.

Those who believe the former place the burden on the Red Sox ownership for not spending what it takes. Those who believe the latter think that while the money offered obviously matters, there are, or could be, a variety of factors involved for each player, many of them unknown to us.

I think what we're seeing this offseason is — short of "proof" — but evidence that a lot of would-be targets have wanted to play elsewhere.

That’s an oversimplification that makes it far too easy to categorize and demonize people.

I doubt many people here, with years of baseball knowledge, think that free agents are wooed *entirely* by offering the largest check. Most know that it’s a confluence of factors.

However, we also know that it’s incredibly unlikely to be in the legit running for a free agents services if you don’t offer *highly competitive* compensation. Or make an offer at all.

*That’s* where the “spats” tend to transpire.

Look, if the Sox are indeed making *league-leading* offers to FAs and are consistently being turned down, then the FO better damn well evaluate why that is. And then fix it.

The notion that they just shrug and proclaim “we can’t force people to sign here” doesn’t cut it. They gotta understand what the obstacles are and then implement an approach that removes them. That’s part of their job.

 

[HfxBob]

What about what Breslow said about fit and interest being a big factor with free agents at the "full throttle" presser? Why is it so hard to acknowledge that he actually pointed to this before free agents started signing? It didn't just come out of nowhere.

Now if you want to argue that he was just saying that to get ahead of what is happening now, that's a different argument but not one I think you're making. What people seem to be doing is saying that Breslow didn't present any information that backs up the fact that they expected those two factors to play a part in the process before it started. And that's demonstrably false.

To me there's so much wiggle room in 'fit and interest' that one could easily argue it's just typical boilerplate executive-speak. What does it mean exactly?

 

[8slim]

View: https://twitter.com/BostonStrong_34/status/1745858507277050362

I love how so many people here hate all but a very few media types. But posting a tweet, without comment, from a fan account that misrepresented the insight of a reporter, is a-OK.

 

[8slim]

OK. Exactly how much more was the Cubs offer? You can round to the nearest million.

How much was the Sox offer? Since apparently you know.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Look, if the Sox are indeed making *league-leading* offers to FAs and are consistently being turned down, then the FO better damn well evaluate why that is. And then fix it.

The notion that they just shrug and proclaim “we can’t force people to sign here” doesn’t cut it. They gotta understand what the obstacles are and then implement an approach that removes them. That’s part of their job.

Move the franchise to South Orange County, California? I’ll go to more games, but I’m not sure “the weather” is easily solved. And SoOrCo won’t solve the “that place is racist“ issue, either.

 

[8slim]

Move the franchise to South Orange County, California? I’ll go to more games, but I’m not sure “the weather” is easily solved. And SoOrCo won’t solve the “that place is racist“ issue, either.

This is silly. Last season we signed free agents. And the season before. And the season before that. And before that.

All of a sudden, in 2024, Boston is an atrocious place for anyone of consequence to sign. Because of the weather in the summer. Also Texas is a paragon of inclusive progressivism.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Move the franchise to South Orange County, California? I’ll go to more games, but I’m not sure “the weather” is easily solved. And SoOrCo won’t solve the “that place is racist“ issue, either.

Neither “the weather” or “that place is racist” are new issues.

 

[Rovin Romine]

How much was the Sox offer? Since apparently you know.

I don't. Nobody does. That's the point.

I love how so many people here hate all but a very few media types. But posting a tweet, without comment, from a fan account that misrepresented the insight of a reporter, is a-OK.

It does not matter because nobody knows what the Sox offer was. That's the point.

I'm sure you can figure out how that applies here.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

I love how so many people here hate all but a very few media types. But posting a tweet, without comment, from a fan account that misrepresented the insight of a reporter, is a-OK.

It’s also odd because when the Cubs signed him, the initial reaction seemed to be that many were happy because it must have meant the Sox had done a lot of research and modeled out that he wouldn’t be effective in the majors and that’s why he signed for so little. I don’t know what to believe anymore!

 

[8slim]

I don't. Nobody does. That's the point.



It does not matter because nobody knows what the Sox offer was. That's the point.

I'm sure you can figure out how that applies here.

You posted that tweet that said the Sox offer was more guaranteed money. Do you believe that tweet?

 

[Rovin Romine]

You're aware that not all auctions are like Ebay, right?

For example, let's say the Sox are bidding on a copy of the Declaration of Indepenence and are deemed to be too problematic for the seller to deal with, so they instead reject the higher bid and offer it for private sale at lower (or almost exactly the same amount), the Sox are still not landing the player (and in this case wind up pivoting to more suspect properties and wildly overpaying for a copy of Jodorowsky's Dune book, and wildly overpaying). If the example holds the Sox come to be seen as difficult actors and need to overpay to account for their diminished reputation. The bottom line is that when transactions are moving beyond 10 figures the negotiations do tend to be a bit more complicated

For Imanaga, we don't know the full terms, so we don't know how much more guaranteed money they offered than the Cubs (it's still only 2 years, so that amount is likely not that much), and we don't know what it took the options to vest; if those terms were more difficult then it's not unreasonable to see Imanaga betting on himself and thinking that he would take the Cubs offer, which was larger than the Sox if the options trigger. Most of Breslow's pitching apparatus and analysis is still in Chicago, so it's not a suprise the teams valued him similarly.

Again, the Sox are still looking for a SP when they had a target they liked enough to make an offer on, but wouldn't go far enough to actually land the player. We've seen this play out quite a bit not only this offseason but in previous years as well.

Free Agency is not an auction.

But I'm glad you understand we can't compare apples to apples offers when we're not sure what the Sox's offer was.

(PS - not snark.)

 

[soxhop411]

You posted that tweet that said the Sox offer was more guaranteed money. Do you believe that tweet?

I am not speaking for @Rovin Romine. But i think his point is that there is so much conflicting information. That nobody knows anything let alone what “report” is true.

see the reporting on bloom this week. Where we had reports he had a hard cap, and reports he would have had a blank check this offseason.
Both of those cant be true

 

[HfxBob]

I am not speaking for @Rovin Romine. But i think his point is that there is so much conflicting information. That nobody knows anything let alone what “report” is true.

The information on the Red Sox offer seems clear enough. They offered 2 guaranteed years plus vesting options. The salary they offered for the 2 guaranteed years was slightly higher than what the Cubs offered for the first 2 years, but the big difference is that the Cubs offered 4 guaranteed years. The total guarantee is $53 million. This comes from reliable sources. There are a few details lacking on the yearly salaries at this point, but that's it.

 

[Rovin Romine]

I am not speaking for @Rovin Romine. But i think his point is that there is so much conflicting information. That nobody knows anything let alone what “report” is true.

Yep.

And, just so we're clear, OCD SS did indeed get the point that whatever his opinion on what the nature of free agency is (auction), one can't judge the strength of two offers when one is murky and the other one pretty much unknown except for a rando tweet.

 

[8slim]

I am not speaking for @Rovin Romine. But i think his point is that there is so much conflicting information. That nobody knows anything let alone what “report” is true.

see the reporting on bloom this week. Where we had reports he had a hard cap, and reports he would have had a blank check this offseason.
Both of those cant be true

I get that. And I’m not worked up over this one particular case.

However, when you miss out on essentially every FA you claim to be involved with, one doesn’t have to squint to see a pattern developing.

If there are real obstacles to getting players here than the FO has to solve that. Or we’re going to suck forever.

 

[CR67dream]

To me there's so much wiggle room in 'fit and interest' that one could easily argue it's just typical boilerplate executive-speak. What does it mean exactly?

Of course there is, and he could have done it strategically which is why I said that if you were arguing that he was just saying that to get ahead of the game it would be a different argument. But it seems like straightforward language to me, and he said it before the dominoes started to fall. I'm not telling anyone to take it as gospel, but he actually said it.

Fit is how either side may feel the particular player might fare in the organization, and whether he meets the needs or will be utilized the way the player wants. For instance, I don't think Stroman was a fit for either side based on everything I've read.

Interest is just what it sounds like. Is he interested in coming here? are we interested in him coming here? I could list all the factors that play into why either side may have interest or not, but I'll give an extreme instead. Clevinger put out there that he'd like to come here. Crickets in response from the Sox.

Never mind family considerations, locale,differences in tax rate and so many other things. Of course money talks, too. It just might not be the end all be all for the player, and teams may be interested at one price and not another. On and on....

Both terms are much more complicated and they also severely overlap, but do you really not understand what he was saying, even if you don't think he was being honest?

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Neither “the weather” or “that place is racist” are new issues.

And as @8slim said, there isn’t an “anywhere but Boston thing” going on, anyway. I just looked for two possible reasons a player might not want to play in Boston.