I mean voter fatigue is a thing, Trout has experienced it and Ohtani to an extent last year (but Judge 62 HRs was a lock).
Not Being a Joker, We Need A The Finals Thread
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No doubt that was probably a bit of a factor, but there is much more to it than that. The second to last MVP straw poll of the season saw Jokic with a very large lead. It's not like these voters forgot mid-season that Jokic had already won the past 2 awards. That kicked off the whole dumb Kendrick Perkins racism thing, followed by a few influential media members going on a crusade against Jokic because they didn't feel like he deserved to win 3 in a row like Bird and Chamberlain (including the laughable argument that Jokic leading the league in kicked balls was evidence that he didn't want to play defense). Then, when Jokic shut things down in the last week+ of the season, it gave everyone an excuse to vote for Embiid and finally make him stop whining about MVP
Denver played G3 with the urgency that Miami had in G2. The next one is going to be interesting. Denver wins its probably over, if Miami bounces back we've got ourselves a zig-zag potential classic.
It's not fun to say, but I think just as big of a factor as anything here was Embiid going for 50 against Boston. I like that Embiid won MVP this year, Jokic playing this well makes it look all the worse.No doubt that was probably a bit of a factor, but there is much more to it than that. The second to last MVP straw poll of the season saw Jokic with a very large lead. It's not like these voters forgot mid-season that Jokic had already won the past 2 awards. That kicked off the whole dumb Kendrick Perkins racism thing, followed by a few influential media members going on a crusade against Jokic because they didn't feel like he deserved to win 3 in a row like Bird and Chamberlain (including the laughable argument that Jokic leading the league in kicked balls was evidence that he didn't want to play defense). Then, when Jokic shut things down in the last week+ of the season, it gave everyone an excuse to vote for Embiid and finally make him stop whining about MVP
True, and that was in the midst of Jokic having already shut things down for the season, as mentioned above. So there was no counterbalance in the game of "what have you done for me lately?"
Say you're Jokic and you're tasked in creating the best five ever (time-travel ok/player at their peak) , and pick 4 players to complement you.
Say your first 3 picks are Michael, Larry and Magic.
Who is your final player? Do you pick the perfect post complement (Russell)? The gigantic force in the middle (Wilt/Shaq)? Go small(er) and more athletic (Elgin)? Give yourself a 2nd GOAT "athlete" with Jordan, to cut to the rim and can handle the ball with Magic (Oscar)? or a non-ball dominant shooter (Ray/Reggie)?
I'd probably stay away from Curry as his demanding of the ball could detract from Jokic and Magic? Or maybe not.
Say your first 3 picks are Michael, Larry and Magic.
Who is your final player? Do you pick the perfect post complement (Russell)? The gigantic force in the middle (Wilt/Shaq)? Go small(er) and more athletic (Elgin)? Give yourself a 2nd GOAT "athlete" with Jordan, to cut to the rim and can handle the ball with Magic (Oscar)? or a non-ball dominant shooter (Ray/Reggie)?
I'd probably stay away from Curry as his demanding of the ball could detract from Jokic and Magic? Or maybe not.
The thing about Jokic isn't his artful passes or his absolutely stuffed box scores. Its that he appears to be doing all this at a completely different pace than the people around him.
Then you look and see a seemingly effortless triple-double - though he takes a lot of abuse given his size/position.
Then you look and see a seemingly effortless triple-double - though he takes a lot of abuse given his size/position.
Defense first is the right idea, but instead of a shithead like Rodman, give me Garnett. An absolute defensive monster in his prime, he gives you 98% of what Rodman does defensively and on the boards and 10x as much on offense (without needing to score to stay engaged). I wonder if KG/Jordan/Bird can really get along on the same team in a competitive environment, but if they could, that'd be my pick.
Ha, yeah I was gonna say....it turns out that there IS a way to beat zone and win without 3s:
Have the best offensive player we've seen since peak LeBron!
Joker. 2nd Team All NBA
Our 2nd team All-NBA player had decidedly different results against Miami (JK Jaylen fans)
Remember that Giannis was B2B MVP when Jokic won his first in 20-21. Bucks went on to win the championship that season and he got his ring/finals MVP. If you’re using the benefit of playoff hindsight, you could make a case that Jokic benefited from voter fatigue that year. His offensive numbers were great but was more a defensive liability that season. I know it’s a regular season award but think it was completely fair to argue Jokic needed a finals appearance/win to join Russell, Wilt, and Bird as 3x MVPs.No doubt that was probably a bit of a factor, but there is much more to it than that. The second to last MVP straw poll of the season saw Jokic with a very large lead. It's not like these voters forgot mid-season that Jokic had already won the past 2 awards. That kicked off the whole dumb Kendrick Perkins racism thing, followed by a few influential media members going on a crusade against Jokic because they didn't feel like he deserved to win 3 in a row like Bird and Chamberlain (including the laughable argument that Jokic leading the league in kicked balls was evidence that he didn't want to play defense). Then, when Jokic shut things down in the last week+ of the season, it gave everyone an excuse to vote for Embiid and finally make him stop whining about MVP
I’ll take Jokic with the Hamptons Four (sans Andre). Basically, Jokic in the role of Zaza/DWest.
Curry’s not really that demanding of the ball or that ball dominant.
You definitely don’t go Shaq or Wilt. Not enough defense there.
I think the top 4 would be LeBron/Curry/KD/KG in some order.
Ill go with KD because he’s got the best mix of shooting and defense
The passing and basketball IQ with that 5 would be just off the charts incredible. The only weakness would be that it’s not a great shooting group.
I think LeBron and Magic would, just maybe, find ways to be impactful without tons of shooting.
The other 3 are some of the more elite shooters ever, from various ranges.
And with the passing chops across the board, it'd be layup lines. Jordan's the worst passer, and he averaged over 5 per game.
Obviously, Bird is one of the best shooters ever, and Jordan could really shoot. There is no way Jordan and Bird don't master and be among the very best at whatever shots were most important in that era. When I was most heavily involved in AAU LBJ was playing every doubter said he could shoot. He shot under 60% from the line as late as his JR in HS. But he made himself a shooter. These guys will be at worst very good at shooting the ball.
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Not even sure what this is, but Wilt was an incredible defender. With the Lakers he focused on D and was great. Not without justification he notes that when he was a scorer and Russell was a defender on a winning team Russell was considered his equal and even beat him at MVP, but when he, while being coached by ex-Celtics Sharman and Kc Jones played like Russell, on team some called the best ever, he was considered no longer dominant.
My post was assuming that they would be playing in todays era. I don’t think either of them would be very well suited playing more on the perimeter and chasing shooters (just as Jokic isn’t). Should have given more detail but that’s what I meant by “not enough defense”. Also don’t love the idea of putting another post player with Jokic
If you brought any of these old guys to the future via time machine my biggest concern would be they would murder one of the guys that flopped.
Fair point that guys Wilt's size don't hold up on the perimeter well typically, but you have to imagine Wilt more as a guy with Giannis's athleticism than Rudy Gobert's. Dude competed in the decathlon at Kansas and was good.
Wilt and Russell were world class athletes and miles ahead of Jokic athletically. Their biggest adjustment in the modern era would be adjusting to the advancements in skill/rule changes.
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NiGAPR1bidw
Thats very fair! I still don’t love the offensive fit there but point taken on defense.
It’s not the exercise but the 5 players I would love to see together are Curry, MJ, LeBron, Bird and Jokic. The amount of skill and shooting on the floor would be unreal. Defense wouldn’t be elite as some other all-time variations but I think that would be poetry in motion on offense
I'm with you on this completely. I might get have my "defense wins championships club" card revoked, but nobody on the 1992 dream team had to play defense. Your team or mine (Magic over Curry), either would destroy basically any other conceivable team, especially when adjusted for era (weight training, nutrition, etc.).
Yeah and Wilt was 7’1” as opposed to 6’9” for Bam. He’s bigger, stronger, faster than Jokic. To the original point, Wilt and Russell would be able to do much better on the perimeter than Jokic. The old footage doesn’t do these guys justice. Remember that the breakaway rim didn’t exist until the 80s and rule changes have allowed guys to show off their athleticism more.
Young Wilt was an absolute world-class athlete. He'd have held up just fine on the perimeter. His failure in today's game would have been that he couldn't shoot from beyond like 6 feet.
Bam is probably substantially more athletic than Wilt. Wilt was a complete athletic marvel in his time, but Bam is one of the quickest, most athletic bigs in the NBA today. Giannis is the most athletic player in the league today; he'd blow by Wilt on a switch today.
Interesting thought.... put together the best team of the current era, and then put together the best team of all time suited to beat this current team *according to today's rules*.
Today's 10-man roster:
G - Curry
G - Doncic
F - Tatum
F - Giannis
C - Jokic
G - Lillard
G - SGA
F - Durant
F - LeBron
C - Embiid
All-Time 10-man roster:
G - Magic
G - Jordan
F - Bird
F - Duncan
C - Olajuwon
G - Stockton or Nash
G - Maravich
F - Barkley or Nowitzki
F - Garnett
C - Robinson
Obviously I'm electing to leave off a TON of unbelievable players. I went with Maravich because he was 6'5" and had modern-day handles and passing. And in his career - yes tiny sample size - he shot 10-15 from three point range so he could deliver from deep. I went with Olajuwon and Robinson instead of Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq specifically because I think Olajuwon and Robinson would be perfect in today's game, while the other guys - who are obviously all-time inner circle HOF legends - don't work nearly as well in today's game.
Would be interesting to see this play out. The overall talent is with the all-time roster, but playing by modern rules levels the playing field I think.
Today's 10-man roster:
G - Curry
G - Doncic
F - Tatum
F - Giannis
C - Jokic
G - Lillard
G - SGA
F - Durant
F - LeBron
C - Embiid
All-Time 10-man roster:
G - Magic
G - Jordan
F - Bird
F - Duncan
C - Olajuwon
G - Stockton or Nash
G - Maravich
F - Barkley or Nowitzki
F - Garnett
C - Robinson
Obviously I'm electing to leave off a TON of unbelievable players. I went with Maravich because he was 6'5" and had modern-day handles and passing. And in his career - yes tiny sample size - he shot 10-15 from three point range so he could deliver from deep. I went with Olajuwon and Robinson instead of Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq specifically because I think Olajuwon and Robinson would be perfect in today's game, while the other guys - who are obviously all-time inner circle HOF legends - don't work nearly as well in today's game.
Would be interesting to see this play out. The overall talent is with the all-time roster, but playing by modern rules levels the playing field I think.
Still a math problem. The 2017 Warriors with a slight Green upgrade beat them.
Good luck talking MJ fresh out of the mid-90s from taking long 2s.
@BaseballJones
I'd have Russell and Kareem at center on your all time team, as much as I love the two guys you have there.
I'd have Russell and Kareem at center on your all time team, as much as I love the two guys you have there.
I was thinking of their current versions. Otherwise LeBron (and Durant too) would obviously be in the starting group of today's players.
I like him a lot as a person, but I’m not including Robinson (not over Russell for sure and not over Wilt, Shaq, and probably not over Walton, or Alcindor either)
Certainly any of those choices are great. Just keep in mind that I'm not saying Robinson was a better player than those guys, just that in a matchup in today's game, with today's rules, I think he'd be better than those other guys.
Has there been some rapid increase in human evolution over the past 60 years that I’m unaware of? Yes Bam has advantages in better training, health, nutrition, technology etc But to argue that Wilt is athletic “for his time” doesn’t hold up. Wilt was fast, could lead out of the gym, and had a ridiculous endurance level for a guy his size.
I hate to be the guy tooting the Wilt horn, and a lot of the Wilt stories are apocryphal, but Wilt was a competitive track and field athlete and strongman in his day. I get that the kids want to act like everyone who played before 1985 was junk, but 1960 Wilt could start in this league now. Probably aren't any other 1960 NBA roster guys who could. If I could have either guy at their peak on my team now, it would be Giannis, but for skills reasons, not athleticism.
