Palefaces: Redskins' Name OK

[Awesome Fossum]

ESPN has one of their super scientific Sportsnation polls running right now: Should the Redskins change their name?

Yes No
D.C.: 44% 56%
Maryland: 39% 61%
Nationwide: 36% 64%
Virginia: 34% 66%
I'm a little surprised it leans so far toward "No" nationwide, and I'm a lot surprised that D.C. has one of the highest "Yes" percentages. Although the only thing that compares to the Redskins fan base in the D.C. metro area are the people who hate the Redskins because have they have to hear about them all the time.
 
Oregon appears to be first with 47% saying yes. Mississippi appears to be last with 23%. Georgia, Missouri, and Ohio (home to the Braves, Chiefs, and Indians) all poll below 36%; Illinois (home to the Blackhawks) is above with 40%.
 
If anyone thinks Snyder is going to break before the general public, let alone his season ticket holders, they're kidding themselves.

 

[Luis Taint]

ESPN has one of their super scientific Sportsnation polls running right now: Should the Redskins change their name?

Yes No
D.C.: 44% 56%
Maryland: 39% 61%
Nationwide: 36% 64%
Virginia: 34% 66%
I'm a little surprised it leans so far toward "No" nationwide, and I'm a lot surprised that D.C. has one of the highest "Yes" percentages. Although the only thing that compares to the Redskins fan base in the D.C. metro area are the people who hate the Redskins because have they have to hear about them all the time.
 
Oregon appears to be first with 47% saying yes. Mississippi appears to be last with 23%. Georgia, Missouri, and Ohio (home to the Braves, Chiefs, and Indians) all poll below 36%; Illinois (home to the Blackhawks) is above with 40%.
 
If anyone thinks Snyder is going to break before the general public, let alone his season ticket holders, they're kidding themselves.

Shocker

 

[Luis Taint]

Shocker, if they did a scientific poll, it would be around 70%

 

[simplyeric]

Shocker

 

[CaptainLaddie]

I haven't read through this entire thread, but just by the few responses I am guessing that this is a pro-change thread. We are all Red Sox fans here, for the most part. The Red Sox and Yawkey family have an ugly history with racism, dating back to when the Redskins came in as well. Could the Red Sox name be deemed offensive?memories of a dark history. I believe the Patent Office now says if you can get enough people that are outraged(18% in the last Pew Poll) then the name should be changed both for the Red Sox and Yawkey way.

 

Holy fucking shit.

 

[Doug Beerabelli]

Is that the Wichita State Mascot?   If so, I am offended.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

I am assuming this is aimed at me, seeing as how this thread is going. Leave it up I don't care. I am not a cry baby, I can take a shot as well as give it. That is the difference between the left and right.

 

Holy fucking shit!

 

[moondog80]

To say nothing of the merits of the argument, this thread is becoming unreadable.

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

I'm curious if anyone who supports keeping the name would feel comfortable calling a Native American a Redskin to his/her face. I'm guessing no, which should easily settle the debate, but instead we get, "Thanks Obama!"

 

[CaptainLaddie]

I'm curious if anyone who supports keeping the name would feel comfortable calling a Native American a Redskin to his/her face. I'm guessing no, which should easily settle the debate, but instead we get, "Thanks Obama!"

Of course they wouldn't.  They know they'd get their ass kicked.  And Internet Tough Guy Luis Taint is no different.

 

[Seven Costanza]

 

[Myt1]

I couldn't care less.

Oh, obviously.

 

[Luis Taint]

Of course they wouldn't.  They know they'd get their ass kicked.  And Internet Tough Guy Luis Taint
 

Oh, obviously.

I said long ago that I was done posting, you are the ones prolonging this.  I know differing opinions are hard to come by on the dainty left, so I will stand aside and let you continue the Bad Daniel Snyder talk. Just remember all your talking points, and remember at the end of this, somehow the Koch brothers are involved. Good day to you.

 

[cromulence]

To take shit from this board is hysterical. You mock and ridicule a kid who died in a car accident(Nick Adenhart) or a plane crash(Munson or Lidle) but get all offended when someone has an opinion differing from yours, hypocrites. You are the types of people who love free speech, but when someone dissents on yours, you get all offended and can't take it. I have said nothing out of school, nothing that wasn't proffered on any cable news show last night on CNN, MSNBC or Fox.

You're so cute! 

 

[URI]

My feelings aren't hurt, I couldn't care less. I made my point, you didn't care for my point.

You're now on about 20 posts of not caring. And you've said your done.

So move along. This isn't a place for you to go on a bullshit left/right rant, or play martyr. Go to V&N for the first and if you have questions on the second, PM me.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Moving away from the rapidly descending discussion, I really like the Pigskins suggestion. But I also think the DC football team could embrace its identity as the federal capital (the way its other teams are the Nationals and the Capitals; I'll pretend the lame Wizards name doesn't exist) and rename the whole team the Washington Department of Football. That way you get a whole bunch of government and military nicknames: the o line could be Big Government, the entire defense gets to be the Department of Defense, etc.

 

[NickEsasky]

Of course they wouldn't.  They know they'd get their ass kicked.  And Internet Tough Guy Luis Taint is no different.

What if the Native American in question is a wuss or disabled or something? I mean I doubt every single one of them could kick his ass.  Probably just like 98 or 99%

 

[Reverend]

Of course they wouldn't.  They know they'd get their ass kicked.  And Internet Tough Guy Luis Taint is no different.

 

 
There's a good write-up of the incident here at Cleveland Frowns.
 
 

You're now on about 20 posts of not caring. And you've said your done.

So move along. This isn't a place for you to go on a bullshit left/right rant, or play martyr. Go to V&N for the first and if you have questions on the second, PM me.

 
:clint:

 

[simplyeric]

Moving away from the rapidly descending discussion, I really like the Pigskins suggestion. But I also think the DC football team could embrace its identity as the federal capital (the way its other teams are the Nationals and the Capitals; I'll pretend the lame Wizards name doesn't exist) and rename the whole team the Washington Department of Football. That way you get a whole bunch of government and military nicknames: the o line could be Big Government, the entire defense gets to be the Department of Defense, etc.

 
I like this.  All the positive and negative connotations.
 
"looks like their offense is getting filibustered again"
"oh that play didn't even make it out of committee"
"the o-line needs to protect the general welfare of its QB"
 
"this offense is simply taking first downs by eminent domain"

 

[Leather]

"The Offensive Coordinator is in caucus on the sideline."

 

[SumnerH]

Honestly I thought that word was "banned" or extremely "offensive". Why are some posters now allowed to use it. Not being sarcastic but it seems hypocritical to have 10,000 posts debating the meaning and effective obscenity of the word and now some of our female members are ok using the term.

 
No word has been banned outright.  The administration has urged people to think about potentially racist or sexist language before using it, and not to be surprised if people are offended and call you out on it, and to be aware that context matters.  As Nip said:
 
 

It also depends on a lot of things where context does matter. Call Price a pussy? Crude but whatever - don't make a habit of it please. If every word out of your mouth is retard or pussy then we'll probably talk more directly to you. If you call a woman a cunt directly then we'll probably throw you out.

 
As far as actual filtering goes, the end result of that thread was to eliminate all the automatic filters (not just the "offensive" words, but also the "should of", and "Bucholz" kinds of things), since they violate the prime SOSH directive ("don't suck").

 

[IdiotKicker]

Moving away from the rapidly descending discussion, I really like the Pigskins suggestion. But I also think the DC football team could embrace its identity as the federal capital (the way its other teams are the Nationals and the Capitals; I'll pretend the lame Wizards name doesn't exist) and rename the whole team the Washington Department of Football. That way you get a whole bunch of government and military nicknames: the o line could be Big Government, the entire defense gets to be the Department of Defense, etc.

And retired players could get the same level of care by going to the VA.

 

[simplyeric]

And retired players could get the same level of care by going to the VA.

 
And if the season doesn't go well, fans can blame Obama.
 
WDCDoF
 
They could have two-part mascot, allowing them to display a donkey or an elephant, depending the party of the president.

 

[Winger 03]

Honest question.......

The consensus is that the term Redskin is offensive when referring to Native Americans. In other contexts is it acceptable?

Redskin Potato seems harmless as it is an accurate description of a potato. Same goes for redskin peanut I suppose. If Snyder kept the name but changes the logo / mascot to a potato or peanut would that be ok?

Wouldn't that in some way satisfy both sides? The offended become satisfied because the logo and mascot go away and Snyder keeps the name he holds dear.

Given this unlikely scenario takes place, can they still sing Hail to the Redskins with the Native American connotations?

I have no idea what is going to happen down here, but at what point does something happen? It would be interesting to see how much merchandise the team moves that gets split among the other 30 teams, and will that 1/30th amount be enough to anger some other owner to force pressure from within? And if it is a significant amount and he begins to hear it from the other owners can Snyder pull whatever Jerry Jones did to cut his own deal and not be part of the split?

 

[Marbleheader]

Just call them Skins like most people do anyway and change the logo to a guy with no shirt. Problem solved.

 

[simplyeric]

Honest question.......

The consensus is that the term Redskin is offensive when referring to Native Americans. In other contexts is it acceptable?

Redskin Potato seems harmless as it is an accurate description of a potato. Same goes for redskin peanut I suppose. If Snyder kept the name but changes the logo / mascot to a potato or peanut would that be ok?

Wouldn't that in some way satisfy both sides? The offended become satisfied because the logo and mascot go away and Snyder keeps the name he holds dear.

Given this unlikely scenario takes place, can they still sing Hail to the Redskins with the Native American connotations?

I have no idea what is going to happen down here, but at what point does something happen? It would be interesting to see how much merchandise the team moves that gets split among the other 30 teams, and will that 1/30th amount be enough to anger some other owner to force pressure from within? And if it is a significant amount and he begins to hear it from the other owners can Snyder pull whatever Jerry Jones did to cut his own deal and not be part of the split?

That would be adding mockery to insult. I think you don't really mean it as such, but I think it would be taken that way.

 

[dbn]

To take shit from this board is hysterical. You mock and ridicule a kid who died in a car accident(Nick Adenhart) or a plane crash(Munson or Lidle) but get all offended when someone has an opinion differing from yours, hypocrites. You are the types of people who love free speech, but when someone dissents on yours, you get all offended and can't take it. I have said nothing out of school, nothing that wasn't proffered on any cable news show last night on CNN, MSNBC or Fox.

 
This is definitely irony.

 

[Reverend]

This is definitely irony.

It better be. Otherwise the mere suggestion that we don't strive to be better than CNN, well, them be fight in' words.*

*Fighting words just coincidentally being a recognized Supreme Court doctrine limiting free speech and recognizing that someone may be doing more than just pursuing discourse in a manner that ought to be protected by the government but rather is, in fact, being a shithead.

 

[simplyeric]

It better be. Otherwise the mere suggestion that we don't strive to be better than CNN, well, them be fight in' words.*

*Fighting words just coincidentally being a recognized Supreme Court doctrine limiting free speech and recognizing that someone may be doing more than just pursuing discourse in a manner that ought to be protected by the government but rather is, in fact, being a shithead.

Unless them fightin' words are trademarks?

 

[dbn]

I don't think it is intentional irony.
 
"You people's opinion is ridiculous!" "Stop ridiculing my opinion!"
 
(no, that's not exactly what he said, but IMO that is the spirit of all this nonsense. I'd invite him to post a disagreement leading to a rational, well reasoned, cogent discourse, but...)

 

[Devizier]

I'm glad that it only took this many posts to establish that "context matters".

 

[Scoots McBoots]

 
Honest question #2: would it be permissible, in your opinion, to rename the 49ers the "Yellowskins" and have a Chinese person's profile as their logo?

 

 

[Winger 03]

That would be adding mockery to insult. I think you don't really mean it as such, but I think it would be taken that way.

Correct on both counts. I think it would be taken as a big FU to the folks who want the name changed, and I did not intend to suggest it that way.

But take the thought further..... Is it the name or the context that is objectionable? Snyder fixes the context with a logo change.

It will never get to this, but would the offended parties have any real ground to stand on if the logo is changed?

 

[dynomite]

Just call them Skins like most people do anyway and change the logo to a guy with no shirt. Problem solved.

A few DC papers already call them the Pigskins, which is purely a better name -- racial and trademark questions aside -- in my opinion. It reminds me of the AAA Louisville Bats, whose name I also love.

It's clever and unique, references football history, it keeps them the 'Skins, and explicitly promotes the "Hogs" nickname.

It feels much more interesting compared to new teams that are so often just named after fierce animals (the Diamondbacks! The Bobcats! Rowr!!!) which often feels uninspired and forced, much in the way fake movie teams usually seem to live in the uncanny valley (the Miami Sharks in "Amy Given Sunday," the Los Angeles Stallions in "The Last Boy Scout," etc. Notable exception: the New York Knights in "The Natural").

 

[SMU_Sox]

Would you change the logo if you named the team the Pigskins? Of you who favor a name change (I am in this group) do you also change the logo? I'd keep the original logo but create another one as well. Eventually I'd expose the original logo less and less until (in twenty+ years it's just the old alternative uniform).

edit: I'd change the logo in that scenario if I renamed it the pigskins. If I went with a non racial slur but still honored native American history in the sport as the name (a perfectly acceptable option) I don't think I change the logo.
further edit: for good PR I'd have that museum in my team facility and/or stadium that shows native American contributions to the sport. That would make an interesting exhibit anyway, right?

 

[jose melendez]

The only time I had second thoughts on this was when I talked to my roommate's dad, who is Peruvian Indian, about it. He's a huge skins fan and was really pissed at me for calling it racist.
 
He said "I'm a redskin, thre guy on the helmet looks like me, and I say it's okay."
 
I still think the name should be changed, but it left me kind of speechless.

 

[DJnVa]

 

 
I hate the NY Jews colors.

 

[soxfan121]

Rather than wait for Snyder having an epiphany, or for the appeals process to run its course, (and he may win) perhaps what may be needed here is a stance from corporate America that it does not want its image associated with the Redskins. For example, certain of the network's large advertisers demand their ads not run during a Redskin games, or WalMart saying that Redskin attire will not be available in their stores, on-line, or that Fed-EX asks to remove their name from the Stadium. I understand this is fantasy, but...

 
Heard an interesting viewpoint on this tonight: the name should change because the democratic, free market process should change it - through sponsors threatening to withhold/boycotts of sponsors/public pressure. In the Kony 2012 world, social change really should require sustained effort and coordinated action because the "internet lynch mob" crowd does at least partially have a point. As does the "gummint sux" crowd - this isn't a political issue and is barely a legal one. It's about social norms, what is-and-is-not acceptable in our culture at this time. 
 
I think the name should change. So I wrote short messages to Fed-Ex and Bank of America asking THEM to support changing the name...or UPS and Citibank might get a new customer. One message is a rain drop in a lake that needs to rise feet. It should be hard to do, if it is worth doing. Snyder is NEVER changing the name until his business partners/sponsors/money demands it. He isn't going to Sterling himself, he's an entitled billionaire dinkwad and he's litigious. The only thing he will respond to is something richer than him saying "no more for you". 
 

 
Look at all those Redcats.

 
Simple, perfect, context-dependent, hilarious.
 

So move along. This isn't a place for you to go on a bullshit left/right rant, or play martyr. Go to V&N for the first and if you have questions on the second, PM me.

 
I thought we could just google the second?
 

To say nothing of the merits of the argument, this thread is becoming unreadable.

 
I respectfully disagree. But then again, I read V&N for the arguments.
 

And retired players could get the same level of care by going to the VA.

 
Chuck Z had himself a 5/5 with two doubles and homer kinda day. 

 

[dcmissle]

People are vastly overrating the trademark decision as a change agent. At most, it's another piece of straw, but far from the back breaking variety. No surprise, though -- scribes usually find themselves in very deep water when addressing complicated legal and business matters.

 

[Reverend]

The only time I had second thoughts on this was when I talked to my roommate's dad, who is Peruvian Indian, about it. He's a huge skins fan and was really pissed at me for calling it racist.
 
He said "I'm a redskin, thre guy on the helmet looks like me, and I say it's okay."
 
I still think the name should be changed, but it left me kind of speechless.

 
Yeah, this is a big problem in the whole discourse of identity when someone comes up with, "Who gets to speak for XXXXX?" A person can still approve of something that's bad for all of us.
 
At some point, we need to talk about right and wrong. That's what's so weird about the conservative end of the spectrum abandoning their moorings in talking about right and wrong to defend a mindless and middling "opinionism" where people are just free to agree to disagree, but then whine when people disagree. Give me some old school Calvinism over that relativistic bullshit any day.

 

[Infield Infidel]

I for one love the SBNation Washington Football Team Blog Logo
 

 
Hogs makes way too much sense for a new team name to actually end up being used. 

 

[Return of the Dewey]

This is good summary of actual legal ramifications from Mintz Levin.

 

[Leather]

They should be the Washington Pork.

 

[dcmissle]

Thisis good summary of actual legal ramifications from Mintz Levin.

Additionally, the ruling does not extend to the Redskins logo currently in use. Beyond that, it does not extend, and can never extend, to players' names and jersey numbers.

So hypothetically, assuming the ruling is affirmed and even assuming the team does not defend its common law rights, people set up stands hawking generic Redskins gear -- no names, no numbers, no logo and no Nike swoosh.

BFD.

Who is going to buy it?

Redskins fans, nope.

Generic fans -- why?

People who view the name as offensive (as I do) and want to stick it to Danny Snyder? Are you kidding me -- we find the name offensive.

I would change the name tomorrow, but the narrative on the impact of this is vastly overdone. It puts Bob Costas in the hospital with a 5 hour hard on, but that's about it.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Heh.  Costas.

 

[mascho]

I know such steps have been discussed in this thread, but the Seattle Times will now refrain from printing the current name of the Washington Football Club.
 

The Seattle Times sports editor announced Thursday that he will ban use of the word "Redskins" in the paper and online, making the Times the latest publication to stop using the controversial name of Washington's NFL team.
 
"The most controversial name in sports won’t appear again in The Seattle Times’ print edition or on the seattletimes.com home pages as long as I am sports editor," the Times' Don Shelton wrote. "It’s time to ban the use of 'Redskins,' the absurd, offensive and outdated name of the NFL team in Washington, D.C. ... Past time, actually."

 

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

They should be the Washington Pork.

Finally we could use Ham Fighters in proper context

 

[ALiveH]

btw, i went to the us patent and trademark office website and i found:
  197 trademarks that contain "negro"
  8 that contain "n**gger"
  33 for "whitey"
  119 for "whore"
 
go have fun on their website and search for the most offensive words you can find.
 
this seems like a pretty transparent case of selective & politicized enforcement. 

 

[Blacken]

All enforcement at scale is spotty and subjective. If you're saying it should be enforced more often, sure.

 

[Blacken]

But I don't think that's what you meant.

I think you think it isn't a big deal and everyone's all mad about nothing.

I think you meant to be selectively outraged that some people feel that the rich white guy isn't allowed to call his team the semantic equivalent of the Washington Niggers anymore, and that this being newsworthy might have brought it to somebody's attention.

I think you should reflect and feel bad.