Palefaces: Redskins' Name OK

[simplyeric]

But who is pushing this? Is it the lawmakers or the tribes? If its the tribes then fine, but my issue is that it seems that the lawmakers are the ones who are bringing this to the forefront. The Indians are in my honest opinion more offensive than any name in sports, yet not much has come out of changing that nickname. Bottom line is that if you change the nickname, you need to give them a nickname that empowers Native Americans. The red tails would be a good name for an expansion team but if you're changing the nickname for one groups benefit then why not change it to something that is defined by Native American culture.

Again I'm aware the popular opinion is to change the nickname period. However, why does it need to change if the people that are supposedly affected do not care? If the tribes come to the forefront and say change the nickname then do it.

A. Haven't some native Americans come out against it? 'the tribes to come forth'... Meaning all native Americans?
B. why isn't it enough if non-amerindians find it offensive?
C. Why does it need to change to something native-specific? The issue isn't that team names have to honor someone or some group, it's that they shouldn't be offensive
D. The Redskins houldnt change their name because the Indians haven't? That makes no sense. It would set a good precedent, and probably also help describe any revenue/merchandising benefits of such a change.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

But who is pushing this? Is it the lawmakers or the tribes? If its the tribes then fine, but my issue is that it seems that the lawmakers are the ones who are bringing this to the forefront. The Indians are in my honest opinion more offensive than any name in sports, yet not much has come out of changing that nickname. Bottom line is that if you change the nickname, you need to give them a nickname that empowers Native Americans. The red tails would be a good name for an expansion team but if you're changing the nickname for one groups benefit then why not change it to something that is defined by Native American culture.

Again I'm aware the popular opinion is to change the nickname period. However, why does it need to change if the people that are supposedly affected do not care? If the tribes come to the forefront and say change the nickname then do it.

 
Because you don't have to be Native American to be "affected" by the name "Redskins".  Again, if there was a team that called themselves the "Negroes" I can't think that is horrible because I'm not black?  I am far from a PC-crusader type but the name Redskins is racist, period.  It shouldn't take a coordinated effort on the part of Native Americans to get it changed.
 
The name should be changed because it is wrong, regardless of whether there is any kind of concerted effort by the "Tribes" (whatever that means).
 
Indians should be gone too.

 

[Leather]

But why should it be up to law makers? If the Native American community is fine with it (and there are some that aren't, I get that) why is it a big issue? It's not like they are parading around a mascot that shits all over the Native American heritage. It should be up to the Native Americans, not law makers that have no Native American blood in them.

Similar thing happened in Dakota with the Fighting Sioux where I believed they had to change the name because the tribe wouldn't endorse it. If the majority of the affected people are fine with the nickname then who are we to judge? The name is racist, no question. But, at the same time so aren't the Seminoles and Braves tomahawk chops, the chiefs and any other names associated with Native Americans. I just think that there are more pressing matters than this in DC that should be attended to unless of course the Native American tribes are pushing this.

I would also like to add that the Indians are 3 times more offensive because of that stupid smiling Indian logo that they finally changed.

 
North Dakota dropped the Fighting Sioux name because the voters voted against keeping it. 
 
You are conceding that the Redskins name is racist, but you want to keep it anyway?   Because the people it's referring to aren't making a big enough stink for you?   Native Americans are some of the poorest, most marginalized, most diffuse, members of our society.  You ever drive through a reservation?  The vast majority of them are rural ghettos.  Just because there isn't a groundswell of NA's across the country complaining about how offensive the Redskins name is (largely because they've either given up asking a historically hostile and still unsympathetic government for anything, or because they are simply too poor and ignorant to know/care) doesn't mean those of us that are "unaffected" should perpetuate an offensive practice.
 
And, frankly, who are the "affected people", anyway?  The name reflects poorly on all of us, even if the slur isn't referring to me, personally. 
 
Oh, and: "So aren't"?

 

[Royal Reader]

I always thought Cleveland reviving Spiders would be cool.  Historically associated with baseball in the city - so wouldn't feel completely made-up and out of place on an original AL franchise - rare enough to be interesting and not racist.

 

[simplyeric]

I always thought Cleveland reviving Spiders would be cool.  Historically associated with baseball in the city - so wouldn't feel completely made-up and out of place on an original AL franchise - rare enough to be interesting and not racist.

Seriously. I can't believe nobody is upset about the 'Browns'....!

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 
North Dakota dropped the Fighting Sioux name because the voters voted against keeping it. 
 
You are conceding that the Redskins name is racist, but you want to keep it anyway?   Because the people it's referring to aren't making a big enough stink for you?   Native Americans are some of the poorest, most marginalized, most diffuse, members of our society.  You ever drive through a reservation?  The vast majority of them are rural ghettos.  Just because there isn't a groundswell of NA's across the country complaining about how offensive the Redskins name is (largely because they've either given up asking a historically hostile and still unsympathetic government for anything, or because they are simply too poor and ignorant to know/care) doesn't mean those of us that are "unaffected" should perpetuate an offensive practice.
 
And, frankly, who are the "affected people", anyway?  The name reflects poorly on all of us, even if the slur isn't referring to me, personally. 
 
Oh, and: "So aren't"?

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't be making decisions FOR them. I understand the fact Native Americans are under represented, but if those in the area have gone to lawmakers (a few have before) and mentioned to them "change the nickname, it's offensive to us" then they have an obligation to do it. If the team was called "the negros" or the "Jews" as people have stated here then your damn right that would be changed because people wouldn't wait for lawmakers to pick up the fight.

Have someone from Native American tribes come out in the public and get the name changed. It shouldn't be up to some law maker with no Native American blood.

 

[Scoots McBoots]

So, the "it's not our problem" defense, basically.  Sounds good.

 

[Leather]

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't be making decisions FOR them. I understand the fact Native Americans are under represented, but if those in the area have gone to lawmakers (a few have before) and mentioned to them "change the nickname, it's offensive to us" then they have an obligation to do it. If the team was called "the negros" or the "Jews" as people have stated here then your damn right that would be changed because people wouldn't wait for lawmakers to pick up the fight.

Have someone from Native American tribes come out in the public and get the name changed. It shouldn't be up to some law maker with no Native American blood.

 
1) as evidenced by this thread, there are a lot of people who hate the name, so I don't see how your reference to the "Jews" or "Negroes" helps your position. 
2) Why?  Why wait?  If a little kid is being bullied by two bigger kids, do you stand around and say "Ah, well, he's not complaining very loudly, so he must not mind that much."?
 
Society has an obligation to look out for minority interests and try to accommodate them, where possible. 

 

[Leather]

Oh, and:
 
They have complained.  Or is that not a sufficient percentage of outraged people?

 

[Royal Reader]

So, the "it's not our problem" defense, basically.  Sounds good.

 
I think it's more the argument that the leadership of the movement to gain equality for a particular group must come from within that group and it's not for white/male/straight etc people to tell the members of the group suffering the oppression what their concerns are.

Which a lot of people who really really care about groups which are discriminated against believe (feminists/anti-racist campaigners etc) so it's not necessarily fair to characterise it as "Not our problem" (without taking a position either way on whether it's right or not). 

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 
1) as evidenced by this thread, there are a lot of people who hate the name, so I don't see how your reference to the "Jews" or "Negroes" helps your position. 
2) Why?  Why wait?  If a little kid is being bullied by two bigger kids, do you stand around and say "Ah, well, he's not complaining very loudly, so he must not mind that much."?
 
Society has an obligation to look out for minority interests and try to accommodate them, where possible. 

Another one of my concerns is that any time a politician comes out and says change this it's bad, usually it's to serve his own agenda since election season is coming up. Anything that is serving a PC purpose in this day and age equals votes. I wouldn't care if the name was changed, I just care who the messenger is. Leave it up to the tribes, give them the choice and then force Snyder to change it. Then consult them for a possible nickname replacement. I think if it's left up to a Washington politician then it cheapens everything.

Then again, the other matter is that the Redskins are a privately owned entity. If Snyder doesn't want to change the name, outside of a national law outlawing any team names related to Native Americans, I don't see how it would get done

 

[teddykgb]

I'm legitimately asking this question, not a joke.  How is Chief Wahoo racist/insulting? Because he's kind of comical/caricature? I've honestly just never seen that logo and thought it was derogatory to anyone, which may very well be my mistake, but can someone explain?

 

[Leather]

Because "Indians" don't have bright red skin or a giant, bulbous, nose?  Because not all "Indians" have a feather in a bandana?   Because referring to an entire race/set of civilizations in the form of one, cartoonish, picture is absurd?
 
It's really not a hard exercise:  replace anything referring to "Indians" (or some other general term) with an analogous reference to black people.   If the reference to black people makes you go "Um, that's kind of fucked up", then the reference to the Native Americans is likewise fucked up. 
 
So imagine a team named "The Negroes" that had This as a  logo.  Offensive?

 

[teddykgb]

If that one, cartoonish picture represents an entire race for you, then that's on you.  I think the aforementioned Fighting Irish guy is a pretty good counter to that point, nobody thinks all Irish people look or act like that.
 
I don't like the analogous reference to black people because I'm not sure it's appropriate.  Much of the American Indian imagery that is leveraged in sports is almost an expression of reverence for the fierce American Indian warrior.  War Paint, horses, military titles....these aren't in and of themselves derogatory, if anything they're complimentary, even if the United States only learned to appreciate them through some truly awful and repugnant ways.  Blackface, negroes, etc have no even imagined reverence for the African American, there's just nothing there.  I'm not conclusively declaring that one is racist and the other isn't as a result, just thinking it's way too simplistic to draw a line from black people to american indians.  They both suffered horribly at the hands of our people and our government, but I don't think that makes it a simple rip and replace in terms of racial slurs and situations.

 

[Leather]

If that one, cartoonish picture represents an entire race for you, then that's on you.  I think the aforementioned Fighting Irish guy is a pretty good counter to that point, nobody thinks all Irish people look or act like that.
 
I don't like the analogous reference to black people because I'm not sure it's appropriate.  Much of the American Indian imagery that is leveraged in sports is almost an expression of reverence for the fierce American Indian warrior.  War Paint, horses, military titles....these aren't in and of themselves derogatory, if anything they're complimentary, even if the United States only learned to appreciate them through some truly awful and repugnant ways.  Blackface, negroes, etc have no even imagined reverence for the African American, there's just nothing there.  I'm not conclusively declaring that one is racist and the other isn't as a result, just thinking it's way too simplistic to draw a line from black people to american indians.  They both suffered horribly at the hands of our people and our government, but I don't think that makes it a simple rip and replace in terms of racial slurs and situations.

 
"Indians".
 
Explain to me how that picture is not meant to represent all Native Americans, a/k/a Indians.  And then tell me how it shows reverence.  I guess Wahoo (the name itself is a fucking joking pun on the idea that all NAs went "Wahoooooooo" and slapped their mouths like the Indians on TV) does have nice teeth.
 
And the Americans learned to appreciate Native Americans so much we nearly wiped them off the face of the earth.  Much respect, yo.

 

[SMU_Sox]

If you don't think Chief Wahoo is a racist image I don't know what to tell you. You're entitled to your opinion of course but I have a hard time looking at that image and not being embarrassed that a major league team uses/used it.

 

[SMU_Sox]

In other words, if you dont think that image is racist you've gone completely off the reservation.

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

ESPN's Uni Watch had a series of articles a while ago about the issue of Native American imagery/names in sports, it's an interesting read.
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/12057/time-to-rethink-native-american-imagery
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/18144/native-americans-speak-on-sports-imagery
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/18484/tribe-supports-native-american-mascots
 
http://www.uni-watch.com/how-do-native-americans-feel-about-their-culture-being-depicted-by-sports-teams/
 
http://www.uni-watch.com/2013/02/23/a-further-exploration-of-native-american-imagery-in-sports/
 
http://www.uni-watch.com/2012/03/23/new-project-aims-to-challenge-native-american-imagery-in-sports/
 
One thing is clear from the articles: Native Americans aren't OK with the name Redskins, despite whatever poll someone posted upthread.

 

[teddykgb]

"Indians".
 
Explain to me how that picture is not meant to represent all Native Americans, a/k/a Indians.
 
And the Americans learned to appreciate Native Americans so much we nearly wiped them off the face of the earth.  Much respect, yo.

 
There's absolutely no point in getting derogatory about my "respect" point.  I am not sure I could have been much more clearer that the actions and atrocities committed in that time period were just that -- atrocities.  I was trying to refute that this was as "simple" an exercise as you claimed it to be.
 
I asked for and received an explanation, so I'll let it drop there.  I'm truly not easily offended by words and imagery, so I'm not surprised to be tone deaf to this stuff.  I just get uneasy when someone says it is "obvious" and I don't feel it.  I guess I don't see the indian warrior type as all that different from say samurai imagery or ninja imagery.  If there were a team called the Samurai or Ninjas I wouldn't even blink, even though you might see similar associated imagery that you see with "Indians", even down to cartoonish logos and obviously stereotypical dress, etc.  Obviously, I'll reiterate that Samurai didn't suffer at the hands of America, since it seems like everyone is going to want to jump down my throat for not feeling the same way they do, but that's at least where my head is/was at.

 

[SMU_Sox]

 
See how both these images are racist portrayals of a group of people? Look, I don't want to jump down your throat but your faux Native American name would be "Sees No Evil". (I'll stop with my crappy jokes now).

 

[Leather]

Wahoo isn't a warrior.  He's a cartoon representation of "Indians" that uses bright red skin and a feather that is smiling like a harmless village idiot.   A) no actual Native Americans have bright red skin; and B) not all Native American tribes used feathers.
 
You are transplanting what you feel to be positive stereotypes of Native Americans onto an image where they don't exist.   Your arguments re: Samurai make some sense in regard to the name "Braves", but not "Indians."  If you can't tell the difference between characterizing an occupation/title (e.g. samurai, ninja, brave, knight, patriot, king) and characterizing an outdated general racial categorization (Indian, Redskin, Negro, Oriental), then you simply either aren't thinking about this very much or are being intellectually dishonest.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I don't think Teddy is trying to be dishonest. I think he's just more desensitized to it. Give him the benefit of the doubt, right?

 

[Ralphwiggum]

To me Samurai or Ninjas is more akin to Braves or Chiefs than Indians or Redskins.  I am honestly not sure where I come down on the use of those types of names, but to me they are a separate conversation from Redskins or Chief Wahoo, both of which are so obviously racist I'm not sure why there is even a conversation about it.  Chief Wahoo is not a picture of an indian warrior, he's an offensive caricature of of an indian warrior.
 
Edit:  or what Dr. Leather said.  I am slow on the draw.

 

[soxfan121]

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't be making decisions FOR them. I understand the fact Native Americans are under represented, but if those in the area have gone to lawmakers (a few have before) and mentioned to them "change the nickname, it's offensive to us" then they have an obligation to do it. If the team was called "the negros" or the "Jews" as people have stated here then your damn right that would be changed because people wouldn't wait for lawmakers to pick up the fight.

Have someone from Native American tribes come out in the public and get the name changed. It shouldn't be up to some law maker with no Native American blood.

 
This might be hilarious if it weren't so soaked in ignorant stupidity. 
 
Does the fact that Native Americans sued the Washington football team multiple times, including 1992, to have the name changed gonna get you to shut the fuck up about something you could have looked up in Google?
 
Shut up and do some fucking reading and research before you come back here and waste more bandwidth spouting off on something you know nothing about. 

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 
This might be hilarious if it weren't so soaked in ignorant stupidity. 
 
Does the fact that Native Americans sued the Washington football team multiple times, including 1992, to have the name changed gonna get you to shut the fuck up about something you could have looked up in Google?
 
Shut up and do some fucking reading and research before you come back here and waste more bandwidth spouting off on something you know nothing about. 

I did a ton of reading on this in college. Did I ever say the name wasn't racist? All I said was that this argument shouldn't be championed by some politician that has zero Native American blood in him. I appreciate something like the Rooney Rule because it had input from NAACP and other African American leaders. This piece of legislation I don't feel has any input from tribal chiefs. I could be wrong about that, but again why does a politican in Washington have to make this argument so he can use it later to get re elected?

The wahoo image is incredibly racist. We're all in agreement there

 

[PBDWake]

So, unless someone is personally effected by something we all universally acknowledge is wrong, he can't right it?
 
I honestly don't give two shits why a politician does the right thing, if the right thing gets done. And you know what? If nobody else is willing to stand up and do the right thing, even if it is for political reasons, then he SHOULD have that arrow in his quiver. Not to mention that in the Washington area? It might cost him more votes than he gains.

 

[Seabass]

Another one of my concerns is that any time a politician comes out and says change this it's bad, usually it's to serve his own agenda since election season is coming up. Anything that is serving a PC purpose in this day and age equals votes. I wouldn't care if the name was changed, I just care who the messenger is. Leave it up to the tribes, give them the choice and then force Snyder to change it. Then consult them for a possible nickname replacement. I think if it's left up to a Washington politician then it cheapens everything.

Then again, the other matter is that the Redskins are a privately owned entity. If Snyder doesn't want to change the name, outside of a national law outlawing any team names related to Native Americans, I don't see how it would get done

 
This is lazy. 'Oh, politicians want this to happen, and they're all sleazy con-artists that are trying to win a few votes on election day, so I don't think they should change the name. Make 'the tribes' force Snyder to change it.'
 
Do you know how shit gets changed in this country? Through politics. By introducing a resolution that gets press in ESPN and spurs discussion about how inherently racist the term 'Redskins' is. 'The tribes' don't have the power to generate the press that is needed to get the name changed.  As has been cited already, they've fought against the trademark of 'Redskins' up to the Supreme Court, and they're fighting it again.  And since the first case took 17 years to get dismissed, perhaps Grosso and the other pols in DC are hoping they move things along a little faster by publicly calling on Snyder to change the name.
 
You don't like politicians.  Cool.  Super brave stance.  But it's possible that they're doing this because they're embarrassed that the most beloved sports team in DC has a name that equates to 'negroes'. And it's their job to bring issues like this one and countless others to light. 
 
I just want to emphasize how pointless your argument is. You don't want politicians to do things that get them re-elected, but that is the entirety of their job.  They do things the people want, and then get re-elected, or they don't and they're voted out of office. Just because a politician isn't a Native American doesn't mean he can't think the name should be changed.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

So, unless someone is personally effected by something we all universally acknowledge is wrong, he can't right it?
 
I honestly don't give two shits why a politician does the right thing, if the right thing gets done. And you know what? If nobody else is willing to stand up and do the right thing, even if it is for political reasons, then he SHOULD have that arrow in his quiver. Not to mention that in the Washington area? It might cost him more votes than he gains.

I respect your point, it's a very good one that could probably be put on to the political board. We differ on the fact I feel it speaks volumes if it comes from tribal chiefs speaking up. If you're the politican say that they have come to him with concerns and this needs to be taken care of. If you succeed in getting the name changed, then let the tribes pick the new name, period. The red tails nickname shouldn't be considered at all.

EDIT: you know sea bass, you're correct. Lets not even consult anyone, lets just force the Redskins name change pronto. I care if its used as a tool to get someone re elected, then we choose the nickname for them without even consulting the tribes.

 

[Leather]

Assuming there is a single Native American in the politician's district/state, then he's doing his job by trying to represent his interests, isn't he? 
 
I mean, that's what politicians are supposed to do; make decisions to benefit their constituents.  If I had to literally tell my politician to do something for me every time I thought it was necessary, that would be a pretty ineffective system of government, no?
 
How many slaves in Georgia wrote to Lincoln and asked him to set the slaves free?  I'm guess not very many.  Doesn't mean that Lincoln could surmise that they probably wanted to be set free, anyway.

 

[Seabass]

I respect your point, it's a very good one that could probably be put on to the political board. We differ on the fact I feel it speaks volumes if it comes from tribal chiefs speaking up. If you're the politican say that they have come to him with concerns and this needs to be taken care of. If you succeed in getting the name changed, then let the tribes pick the new name, period. The red tails nickname shouldn't be considered at all.

EDIT: you know sea bass, you're correct. Lets not even consult anyone, lets just force the Redskins name change pronto. I care if its used as a tool to get someone re elected, then we choose the nickname for them without even consulting the tribes.

 
I do not understand what this means.  Native Americans have spoken out against the name 'Redskins.' Do you need more of them to do so? Is your concern that 'the tribes' won't get to pick the new name? Please clarify.

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

I respect your point, it's a very good one that could probably be put on to the political board. We differ on the fact I feel it speaks volumes if it comes from tribal chiefs speaking up. If you're the politican say that they have come to him with concerns and this needs to be taken care of. If you succeed in getting the name changed, then let the tribes pick the new name, period. The red tails nickname shouldn't be considered at all.

EDIT: you know sea bass, you're correct. Lets not even consult anyone, lets just force the Redskins name change pronto. I care if its used as a tool to get someone re elected, then we choose the nickname for them without even consulting the tribes.

 
 
What the fuck is wrong with you? Do you have a dent in your head?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Assuming there is a single Native American in the politician's district/state, then he's doing his job by trying to represent his interests, isn't he? 
 
I mean, that's what politicians are supposed to do; make decisions to benefit their constituents.  If I had to literally tell my politician to do something for me every time I thought it was necessary, that would be a pretty ineffective system of government, no?
 
How many slaves in Georgia wrote to Lincoln and asked him to set the slaves free?  I'm guess not very many.  Doesn't mean that Lincoln could surmise that they probably wanted to be set free, anyway.

Well comparing slavery to a derogatory name is a little much don't you think? I know where you're going with this though. Despite the fact that a lot of the slaves didn't know how to read or write as a tool used to oppress them in that era.

This being said, don't you think it helps if people come forward on the subject that are related to the tribes? I'm sure that people with Native American blood live around the DC area. We all would like the same thing to happen, I have an issue with the presentation of it.

The thing that keeps coming up is a 17 year old law suit. Stop it with that, it was valid back then not now. People have a problem with it now this is their chance to go to their law makers and make a change heard. It's up to them if they take advantage of it IMO.

 

[Leather]

"I don't want politicians to do things that help people because they are only doing it so people think they are doing a good job."

 

[Leather]

Well comparing slavery to a derogatory name is a little much don't you think? I know where you're going with this though. Despite the fact that a lot of the slaves didn't know how to read or write as a tool used to oppress them in that era.

This being said, don't you think it helps if people come forward on the subject that are related to the tribes? I'm sure that people with Native American blood live around the DC area. We all would like the same thing to happen, I have an issue with the presentation of it.

The thing that keeps coming up is a 17 year old law suit. Stop it with that, it was valid back then not now. People have a problem with it now this is their chance to go to their law makers and make a change heard. It's up to them if they take advantage of it IMO.

 
It's been posted at least twice now, in response to your posts, that Native Americans have repeatedly come forward about this.  Why do they have to keep spending the time and money to make an issue of this? 
 
You're creating an ridiculous standard.  You admit it's offensive.  You admit that people have come forward stating it's offensive.  Yet you want them to come forward right now before anyone does anything?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 
I do not understand what this means.  Native Americans have spoken out against the name 'Redskins.' Do you need more of them to do so? Is your concern that 'the tribes' won't get to pick the new name? Please clarify.

I think the tribes should absolutely get to pick a new name, only fair if you're getting rid of a name that degrades them. I think that they need to revisit every effort from before if that will work. If they don't then this whole conversation is pointless. You need to have them in your corner in order to get support.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 
It's been posted at least twice now, in response to your posts, that Native Americans have repeatedly come forward about this.   Why are you ignoring this?

I didn't if you read the paragraph below the one you bolded.

If they want to put this back out there then I would think that now would be the time while its in the public light.

 

[Leather]

Here you go.

 

[Royal Reader]

 

[mascho]

Tony Kornheiser wrote a pretty good piece on this issue.
 
He also wrote that piece over 20 years ago.  Reads like it could have been written today.

 

[soxfan121]

I did a ton of reading on this in college.  All I said was that this argument shouldn't be championed by some politician that has zero Native American blood in him.

 
No, you didn't. You're a liar. If you had "done a ton of reading" the numerous challenges by tribal authorities, politicians with verified Native blood lines, concerned citizens and countless others have completely debunked this POS argument you're foisting on us. 
 
And Ben Nighthorse Campbell begs you to shut the fuck up. 

 

[Seabass]

I think the tribes should absolutely get to pick a new name, only fair if you're getting rid of a name that degrades them. I think that they need to revisit every effort from before if that will work. If they don't then this whole conversation is pointless. You need to have them in your corner in order to get support.

 
You acknowledge that the name degrades them.  Fantastic, we're moving forward. I personally think Redtails is a cool name, since DC has such a huge African American population, it's a positive name, and they get to keep the fight song the same.  Easy peasy.  But hey, Grosso said he was just spitballing with 'Redtails', just tossing ideas out there, so it's nothing to get incredibly riled up over.
 

I didn't if you read the paragraph below the one you bolded.

If they want to put this back out there then I would think that now would be the time while its in the public light.

 
They totally are.
 

 
On Thursday a group of Native Americans will go before the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board to argue that the team should lose federal trademark protection for the term “Redskins” because law prohibits trademarking disparaging, scandalous, contemptuous or disreputable names. Many Native Americans say the term “Redskins” is a racial slur, although the team says there’s nothing offensive about it.

 
So now that we've established that 'the tribes' really aren't down with this racist name, the local politicians don't want the racist name, and you think it's 'degrading', we can move forward. Cool. Glad that's settled. 

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 
No, you didn't. You're a liar. If you had "done a ton of reading" the numerous challenges by tribal authorities, politicians with verified Native blood lines, concerned citizens and countless others have completely debunked this POS argument you're foisting on us. 
 
And Ben Nighthorse Campbell begs you to shut the fuck up. 

Really so going towards a history degree in college doesn't require a ton of reading? I got hosed then. I can forward you a picture copy of that if you'd like, still paying for it. How is it a POS argument that people should stand up for their own rights? They have in the past but when is the last time anyone heard from them in the public eye regarding the matter? Maybe it ends up being a good thing that some random politician took it upon himself. I think it's a great idea but I would have rather it come from someone who had native blood in them.

 

[Leather]

I majored in history and I did not read a single goddamned thing about Native Americans' objection to offensive team mascots.

 

[DJnVa]

A friend and I had this discussion the other day.
 
We started talking about Redskins vs. Redtails and that also morphed into discussing the Indians.  Now, he 100% accepted that Chief Wahoo is pretty horrible, but his take was that if Redtails honored those it was named after, if the Indians got rid of that logo, why does their name not honor Indians?  I argued that because that clearly wasn't the intent when the team was named, evidenced by their logo.  But beyond that, I was stumped.  I was also a little drunk.
 
But anyway--what's the thoughts?
 
FSU says "Seminoles" honors the tribe.  Supporters of "Redtails" say that honors the airmen.  What's a good response, outside of original intent, to the argument that "Indians" honors all of them.  Or is that intent enough?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I majored in history and I did not read a single goddamned thing about Native Americans' objection to offensive team mascots.

I never said it was in relation to mascots

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Really so going towards a history degree in college doesn't require a ton of reading? I got hosed then. I can forward you a picture copy of that if you'd like, still paying for it. How is it a POS argument that people should stand up for their own rights? They have in the past but when is the last time anyone heard from them in the public eye regarding the matter? Maybe it ends up being a good thing that some random politician took it upon himself. I think it's a great idea but I would have rather it come from someone who had native blood in them.

 
Are you reading any of the links people are posting in this thread?  Is March 2013 recent enough for you (the trademark challenge)?  Or do they have to have reiterated their objection to the Redskins name at 12:03 eastern time on May 3, 2013 for you to accept it?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 
Are you reading any of the links people are posting in this thread?  Is March 2013 recent enough for you (the trademark challenge)?  Or do they have to have reiterated their objection to the Redskins name at 12:03 eastern time on May 3, 2013 for you to accept it?

Well with respect to those, I was posting when those were put up in the last 10 minutes. So my apologies

 

[dbn]

Its awesome to see that lawmakers on Capitol Hill are going after such pressing matters as the Washington Redskins nickname. All of a sudden in the past 25 or so years we've taken it upon ourselves to go on a PC crusade. Change the Bullets to the Wizards because, eek guns shoot bullets, which causes harm. Change the Redskins to the Redtails because of course the Redskin name is racist. By the way, if you are going to change the Redskin name because its offensive to native americans, wouldn't you change it to a name that honors them? Redtails would make zero sense in that regard. What's next? Change the Dolphins nickname because PETA feels that its offensive to Dolphins? Obviously that last example is a stretch, but why the hell do people need to go on these crusades? A recent poll that was done mentioned that 79% of the polled wanted the name to stay. I don't know about you guys, but when your city has one of the highest crime rates in America, you would think that law makers would have better things to do than lobby for professional team name changes. 
 
FYI here is the poll results
 
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/02/poll-shows-high-support-for-redskins-name/

 
He's a member of the Washington D.C. council, not a lawmaker on Capitol Hill.
 

Another one of my concerns is that any time a politician comes out and says change this it's bad, usually it's to serve his own agenda since election season is coming up. Anything that is serving a PC purpose in this day and age equals votes. I wouldn't care if the name was changed, I just care who the messenger is. Leave it up to the tribes, give them the choice and then force Snyder to change it. Then consult them for a possible nickname replacement. I think if it's left up to a Washington politician then it cheapens everything.

Then again, the other matter is that the Redskins are a privately owned entity. If Snyder doesn't want to change the name, outside of a national law outlawing any team names related to Native Americans, I don't see how it would get done

 
Grosso was only just elected, for the first time, and this is his first resolution.  He started working on it right after he was elected.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 
He's a member of the Washington D.C. council, not a lawmaker on Capitol Hill.
 
 
Grosso was only just elected, for the first time, and this is his first resolution.  He started working on it right after he was elected.

If that's the case then it shows that he has a vested interest in the matter

 

[dbn]

Really so going towards a history degree in college doesn't require a ton of reading? I got hosed then. I can forward you a picture copy of that if you'd like, still paying for it. How is it a POS argument that people should stand up for their own rights? They have in the past but when is the last time anyone heard from them in the public eye regarding the matter? Maybe it ends up being a good thing that some random politician took it upon himself. I think it's a great idea but I would have rather it come from someone who had native blood in them.

 
I think it is a POS argument that people shouldn't stand up for others' rights.