Palefaces: Redskins' Name OK

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Super Nomario

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Nick Kaufman said:
I am saying that because I don't understand how redskin is seen as pejorative along with a slew of other words. Like cunt for example. I cannot comprehend why it carries such a heavy weight. I know it does, but the shocking, visceral, emotional reaction it provokes is alien to me and not just because I am not a woman.
 
In regards to redskins, this discussion reminded me of the western comics translated into Greek i used to come across as a child. I now realize that redskins was translated into Greek literally and not metaphorically in order to describe the native american heroes of those comics. It didn't have any pejorative hue, at least the way I read it. What was pejorative was mostly how Indians were portrayed, but then again, this may be all the old westerns from the 30s to the 60s that spring to my memory.

What I do remember from those comics though which is somewhat interesting IMO is that indians addressed white people in those comics as Pale Face ( I am translating from Greek here, perhaps the term is different in English). As in, "Why would you think that, Pale Face?" "Or the ways of the Manitou are strange to us Pale Face".  Again, I don't think this was pejorative. On the contrary,  the juxtaposition between redskin and pale face served to offer balance and illustrate the subjective and opposing way one set of people viewed another set of people. Which, when you think about it, it's the way people who first come across each other would conceive of each other.
All language is a social construct, and carries social baggage. You see a symmetry between "redskin" and "pale face," and perhaps there was (assuming American Indians ever actually used the term "pale face"), but the relationship between the two groups was not equal, and thus the word "redskin" itself, as a term used by whites to describe Native Americans, came to be imbued with all the negative aspects of the control and oppression whites exerted over American Indians. This happens with words; I would guess most racial slurs evolved this way, from harmless descriptive words through decades or centuries of mistreatment into offensive ones.
 

Brickowski

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They've got to come up with something better than Redtails, which just reminds me of the terrible movie (the earlier Tuskegee Airmen, with Lawrence Fishburn and John Lithgow playing the villanous southern senator, was far superior).
 
I'm lousy at dreaming up names, but how about something that is completely neutral from a racial point of view, e.g. Monarchs or Raiders.
 

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Brickowski said:
They've got to come up with something better than Redtails, which just reminds me of the terrible movie (the earlier Tuskegee Airmen, with Lawrence Fishburn and John Lithgow playing the villanous southern senator, was far superior).
 
I'm lousy at dreaming up names, but how about something that is completely neutral from a racila point of view, e.g. Monarchs or Raiders.
I know they both have a history of meddling owners forcing them to sign over the hill stars, but it'd still be less confusing when they played Oakland for them to have a different nickname.
 

Brickowski

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SumnerH said:
I know they both have a history of meddling owners forcing them to sign over the hill stars, but it'd still be less confusing when they played Oakland for them to have a different nickname.
Actually I was thinking of Red Raiders if they wanted to keep "red" in the name, but maybe Texas Tech has that trademarked. 
 

LondonSox

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That kornheiser piece is remarkable as mentioned in that it's 21 years old and the only give away is after the recent Super Bowl comment. Otherwise it's almost exactly in line with the discussion.

I'm also kind of in awe at the attacks on the politican for pandering. It's so rare a politican tries to do something that really seems positive that I understand the cynicism but sheesh it seems like a good thing, who cares why?

Redskins is so clearly racist I don't understand the debate. Further most owners love a good change of uniform for all the new purchases. I'm kind of at a loss as to how this is taken so long, especially in the modern age of political correctness and the location in the political Capitol.

I find the constant search for tradition in America fascinating, I assume as its a relatively young country (in the big picture) that this will become less important in time as traditions are building and don't need to be manufactured via a short lived, already moved, sports franchise. I don't mean that as offensive or negative just as an outsider living here an observation.

The Indians I find a much more interesting debate. Not chief wahoo I mean that's insane and needs to be changed no question. Indians is a name give by ignorance and stupidity, but never changed or corrected, and many think it's not insulting. But I think it would probably irk me more than a little that my race is referred to by a name chosen because the first western to get there thought he was going to reach India. Furthermore, there are actually real Indians. They come from India. How do they feel about it? I honestly have never thought to ask.
It seems clear there is a right way to do it, reading the FSU dialogue with the tribal Seminole leaders and involved them is just a great model. There is a flat out wrong way, the redskins and chef wahoo, and some unclear ones eg Indians and braves (made worse by the chop etc).

It's flat out sad politicians have to get involved in this, the people have time to do the right thing and failed, the people offended have complained and been ignore so its time.
 

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Off-topic diversion...
 
About a dozen years ago, I was coaching my 6-year-old son's youth soccer team.  All the teams in the league were issues white-and-red reversible jerseys -- in any given game a red team would play against the white team.
 
When we polled the kids just before our first game what they wanted to name their team, they were wearing the red jerseys and somebody suggested "The Red Devils".  That caught on and the kids started chanting "We're the Red Devils!  We're the Red Devils!"
 
Then the ref came over and informed us we'd be wearing the white jerseys that day.  As the kids turned their shirts inside out, they started chanting "We're the White Devils!  We're the White Devils!"
 
The parents all looked at each other, kind of mortified.  We were renamed the "Giants" pretty much right away.
 

dbn

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Mugsys Jock said:
Off-topic diversion...
 
About a dozen years ago, I was coaching my 6-year-old son's youth soccer team.  All the teams in the league were issues white-and-red reversible jerseys -- in any given game a red team would play against the white team.
 
When we polled the kids just before our first game what they wanted to name their team, they were wearing the red jerseys and somebody suggested "The Red Devils".  That caught on and the kids started chanting "We're the Red Devils!  We're the Red Devils!"
 
Then the ref came over and informed us we'd be wearing the white jerseys that day.  As the kids turned their shirts inside out, they started chanting "We're the White Devils!  We're the White Devils!"
 
The parents all looked at each other, kind of mortified.  We were renamed the "Giants" pretty much right away.
 
This is a very good story.
 

SMU_Sox

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Two similar things.

1) team named the "Power" in black on an all white jersey.

2) team with ss style two lightning bolts named the blitzkrieg.

Can't make this stuff up in youth soccer in Allen, Texas.
 

richgedman'sghost

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The Allented Mr Ripley said:
You are a stupid piece of shit. I hope you die.
Why the personal attack? Even if Biggums idea is wrong which I believe it is, leave the personal attacks at the door or take it to pm. It is clear that that a number of posters disagree with him. No need to argue about his education or lack thereof.   How about common courtesy? I thought SOSH was better than this.  I want to state that I am in no way defending Biggums ideas just the lack of courtesy shown him.
 
 To contribute somewhat to the thread I was under the impression that the Cleveland Indians were named in honor of Louis Soxalexis, a turn of the century Native American player. However, Wikipedia for what it's worth says I may be mistaken. The relevant passage:
.  Legend has it that the team honored Louis Sockalexis when it assumed its current name in 1915. Sockalexis, a Native American, had played in Cleveland 1897–99. Research indicates that this legend is mostly untrue, and that the new name was a play on the name of the Boston Braves, then known as the "Miracle Braves" after going from last place on July 4 to a sweep in the 1914 World Series. Proponents of the name acknowledged that the Cleveland Spiders of the National League had sometimes been informally called the "Indians" during Sockalexis' short career there, a fact which merely reinforced the new name. I guess I could go either way on the Indians. Chief Wahoo has to go without a doubt.
 Redtails would be an interesting or acceptable subsitution for Redskins.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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Against abject stupidity such as Biggums's, sometimes the only arrow left in one's quiver is that of extreme hyperbole. The ridiculousness of my statement is meant to mirror the ridiculousness of his argument.
 
Now that I've had to explain it, its delicate magic has turned into so much dust.
 

Leather

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Two similar things.


1) team named the "Power" in black on an all white jersey.


2) team with ss style two lightning bolts named the blitzkrieg.


Can't make this stuff up in youth soccer in Allen, Texas.


How long ago?
 

dbn

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I still prefer "Red Tape", but would consider "Filibusters", "Lafayettes" (just to piss off the anti-Frenchies), "Monuments", "Patriot Acts", or "Generals".  "Pigskins" would be okay, if people would dress up as pigs, wear barrels, and call themselves "pork barrels."
 

dbn

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simplyeric said:
The House of Representatives.

So pep-talk phrases like 'not in our house' and 'represent' would be more specific.
 
Only if their owner is allowed to attend league meetings, but not be allowed to vote at them.
 

mauf

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teddykgb said:
I'm legitimately asking this question, not a joke.  How is Chief Wahoo racist/insulting? Because he's kind of comical/caricature? I've honestly just never seen that logo and thought it was derogatory to anyone, which may very well be my mistake, but can someone explain?
 
The greasy hair. The bad teeth. The oddly shaped eyes. The comically red skin. The feather.
 
It's a collection of stereotypes.
 

LondonSox

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Not in my Tepee is a nice touch... wow
 
I don't know what to make of this, I'm sure the fans don't even think about it as racist but jesus christ really? There's a kid right next to him being casually taught to shit all over a race the nation shat all over and have no ability to defend themselves.
The blackface is from another era, and times have changed I'm not sure it impacts the current conversation. Other than to show that the Indians are equal opportunity racists, or rather were. They are monogamous now
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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The Allented Mr Ripley said:
Against abject stupidity such as Biggums's, sometimes the only arrow left in one's quiver is that of extreme hyperbole. The ridiculousness of my statement is meant to mirror the ridiculousness of his argument.
 
Now that I've had to explain it, its delicate magic has turned into so much dust.
 
It's as if he's never met you before.
 

singaporesoxfan

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How about the Washington Carvers?

They could always name the team after the first home rule mayor of Washington... Walter E. Washington.
 

Jettisoned

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Maybe they could call them the Washington Southerners with mascots Curt and Punkin'head Martin.
 

PBDWake

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Snyder chimes in on the subject here:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9259866/daniel-snyder-says-washington-redskins-never-change-team-name
 
"As a lifelong Redskins fan, and I think that the Redskins fans
understand the great tradition and what it's all about and what it
means, so we feel pretty fortunate to be just working on next season."
...
"We'll never change the name," Snyder told USA Today. "It's that simple. NEVER -- you can use caps."
He just doesn't get it. Or he does, and he doesn't care. Probably the latter. "What it's all about" is the most bullshit part of that whole exchange. Because it boils down to is this: Every defense of tradition I've heard is that it honors the proud warrior, or however you phrase this. But this isn't the Warriors, Raiders, etc, or even the Chiefs. It's the Redskins. You're using a racist term to appropriate an entire race and identify them as nothing but combatants. And that's what it IS all about.
 
Sports has been a big part of a big number done on the native American population in popular media. If I asked 100 people to think of a Native American, I'm betting the vast, vast majority thinks of them as the Redskins and other sports teams portray them: As, at best, a proud warrior people. But you can bet the words "Mohawk", "Tomahawk", "Feather", etc will be part of the lexicon. But the hunter part of the Native life was really no more than any hunter on the African prairie, or in the jungles in South America, or the woods of England. I mean, shit. The most flattering recent portrayal of a Native American in popular media that I can even think of is probably a shirtless Werewolf among sparkly vampires.
 

Cellar-Door

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They should rename them the Washington Foreskins to keep the nickname, also so that if I have to listen to Joe Buck call games at least he can be desperately uncomfortable for my enjoyment.
 

Super Nomario

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This is my favorite part of the interview with Snyder. From USA Today:
 
Later Thursday, USA TODAY Sports will publish a story about Amanda Blackhorse, who is Navajo and the named plaintiff in the trademark suit. She said if she ever had the chance, she'd ask Snyder if he would dare to call her a redskin to her face.

"I think the best way is to just not comment on that type of stuff," Snyder said. "I don't know her."
So, like, if you you knew her, then you might be able to comment on whether you would call her a redskin to her face?
 

Awesome Fossum

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PBDWake said:
He just doesn't get it. Or he does, and he doesn't care. Probably the latter.
Definitely the latter. I was just talking to my friend, also a Redskins fan, and he said, "I know it's racist ... but I still don't want to change the name." I think that's where a lot of Redskins fans are. They've given up trying to claim the term isn't racist, but it's still not enough -- at least not yet -- to outweigh giving up the identity they love. I'm not saying that's right of them, but I also think sometimes people underestimate the emotional ties people have to the name. If all we're doing is rooting for laundry, it's a pretty big deal when someone wants to take the laundry away.

Not entirely related, but I was wandering around an antique store and found this in a "My First Dictionary" from 1957:
 
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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I wonder if this digging in of his heels is a ruse to justify whatever compensation he's going to ask for when the NFL ultimately forces him to change the name.
 
I wish I weren't so cynical.
 

Cellar-Door

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The Allented Mr Ripley said:
I wonder if this digging in of his heels is a ruse to justify whatever compensation he's going to ask for when the NFL ultimately forces him to change the name.
 
I wish I weren't so cynical.
It's a franchise, their compensation is letting him have an NFL team and that should be Goodell's play, change the name or we'll just cut you out of the league, move the Falcons to the East, the Rams to the South and put a new team in LA. Feel free to start your own league.
Unfortunately the owners are all pussies and terrified of being sued so they will give him some bullshit compensation and a Superbowl hosting gig.
 

Monbo Jumbo

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Stanford dropped their Indian mascot in 1972. They adopted the name Cardinals at that time - not in reference to the bird, but to the specific shade of bright red associated with the school. In 1981, they shortened the name to the Stanford Cardinal to more specifically refer to the color.
 
ergo - the Washington football club should be named after that shade of red now in their various emblems.
 
The Washington Mauve.
 

Super Nomario

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Awesome Fossum said:
Definitely the latter. I was just talking to my friend, also a Redskins fan, and he said, "I know it's racist ... but I still don't want to change the name." I think that's where a lot of Redskins fans are. They've given up trying to claim the term isn't racist, but it's still not enough -- at least not yet -- to outweigh giving up the identity they love. I'm not saying that's right of them, but I also think sometimes people underestimate the emotional ties people have to the name. If all we're doing is rooting for laundry, it's a pretty big deal when someone wants to take the laundry away.
I think your assessment of Washington fans is accurate, but I think people overrate their own emotional ties to the name. Would people actual quit the team if Snyder changed the name? It would be a tiny percentage, at most. You'd have some fans who still refer to the team by the old name, but gradually that would fade, and the younger generation would grow up not knowing differently. Teams change names; it's not the end of the world.
 

jose melendez

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Snyder's a bigot.
 
There.  It's that simple.  His digging in his heels on this makes him a bigot period.
 
He's also a hypocrite because of the the "anti-semtic" law suit.
 
You can own a team named the Redskins (though you shouldn't) or you can complain that a depiction of you with horns is anti-semtic--not both.
 

SumnerH

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
Um that would officially be the Washington Burgundy.
Yeah. Mauve is a pale lavendar pink with a little grey to it, like this:

 
The Washington color isn't anything like that.  Burgundy's a much closer description:
 

SumnerH

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Super Nomario said:
I think your assessment of Washington fans is accurate, but I think people overrate their own emotional ties to the name. Would people actual quit the team if Snyder changed the name? It would be a tiny percentage, at most. You'd have some fans who still refer to the team by the old name, but gradually that would fade, and the younger generation would grow up not knowing differently. Teams change names; it's not the end of the world.
Agreed.  They'd moan for a month and then root for the Redtails or Potato Skins or whatever.  You might get occasional complaints going forward, but the vast majority would fade quickly (and unlike the Bullets I'm guessing most people in 5 years would realize there was very good reason for the change).
 

Monbo Jumbo

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[quote data-cid='4709040' name='SumnerH' timestamp='1368164719' post='4709040'][quote data-cid='4708996' name='Papelbon's Poutine' timestamp='1368157583']Um that would officially be the Washington Burgundy.[/quote]
Yeah. Mauve is a pale lavendar pink with a little grey to it, like this:

 
The Washington color isn't anything like that.  Burgundy's a much closer description:


Sorry you didn't get the joke. I guess it was probably shitty.
 

SumnerH

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Monbo Jumbo said:
ata-cid='4709040' name='SumnerH' timestamp='1368164719' post='4709040']
Yeah. Mauve is a pale lavendar pink with a little grey to it, like this:

 
The Washington color isn't anything like that.  Burgundy's a much closer description:


Sorry you didn't get the joke. I guess it was probably shitty.
 
It's actually a nice jab.  Latter-day Crayola would approve.  
 

Awesome Fossum

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SumnerH said:
Agreed. They'd moan for a month and then root for the Redtails or Potato Skins or whatever.
Prior to RGIII, support for the Redskins was already eroding. People hate the stadium and the gameday experience. They've hated the on-field product for nearly 20 years. And most importantly, people hate Snyder. And I mean HATE. The best way to gain support for a name change is to announce that the name is going to be changed once the franchise is owned by someone other than Snyder. Which is probably the truth, and to be honest, probably for the best. If you let Snyder choose the new name, it will always be tainted.

RGIII has changed a lot of things. If you changed the name today, people wouldn't just walk away. He's too interesting. But if his knee explodes the first time he plants his leg on FedEx's "turf," fan frustration is going to revert back to pre-2012 levels quickly. The franchise clearly wouldn't fold or anything, but people are still pissed that Frank Herzog was replaced as the radio play-by-play guy in 2004. They will absolutely hold a grudge when it comes to the name. (Not that that's a valid excuse for not changing the name, just that it should not be dismissed as inconsequential.)
SumnerH said:
The Washington color isn't anything like that.  Burgundy's a much closer description:
The Washington Burgundy & Gold isn't a terrible option for a name change. Of course, the Redskins don't actually wear burgundy or gold anymore. Ketchup & Mustard would be a more accurate description.

 

Leather

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No way, the Chiefs have the Ketchup and Mustard combo for the ages.
 
Anyway, "Burgundy and Gold" is a terrible name. 
 
Just call them the Washington Commanders or some shit, and change the logo to a silhouette of MacArthur and his pipe (i'm half kidding).
 

Trlicek's Whip

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Super Nomario said:
This is my favorite part of the interview with Snyder. From USA Today:
 
So, like, if you you knew her, then you might be able to comment on whether you would call her a redskin to her face?
 
This is exactly like the recent changes-of-heart some Republican politicians had after a family member came out as gay. It was a totally different story once it impacted them personally. 
 
So I guess once Snyder finds out he's 1/14th Cherokee or his kids come out as Native American, we'll see the name change. 
 

mascho

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The Army of the Potomac.

Nice.

But considering one of the more prominently featured t-shirts in Virginia stores Richmond on south reads "North 1, South 0, Halftime." I'm guessing that won't fly.
 

DanoooME

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I'm surprised he hasn't wanted to change the name to the Washington Snyders to honor himself for the rest of his life.
 
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