QB Play in Washington

Stitch01

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Was thinking of bumping this, RG III wasn't good yesterday but probably wasn't bad enough on the field to be benched given team situation and alternatives.  Given the smoke around his attitude issues and the accountability issues with his postgame comments, might not be a bad time for Gruden to sit his ass for a week.
 

DJnVa

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RGIII needs a change of scenery and Skins need to give someone else a try.
 

DanoooME

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DrewDawg said:
RGIII needs a change of scenery and Skins need to give someone else a try.
 
Except this team is owned by Dan Snyder, who is a total star f*cker.  I'd say Jay Gruden is out of there after one year and Snyder will go find someone RGIII will get along with.
 
For a year. Maybe.
 
Lather, rinse, repeat.
 

DJnVa

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Cris Carter was on the ESPN Radio this morning and said he's talked to some folks in DC and said that RGIII has been trying to do the right thing, but that this is a relapse into what he was trying to get away from.
 
That said, I have never understood the athlete that seems more insistent on building his brand before doing what he needs to do to have a long career.
 

dcmissle

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So fascinating on so many levels.
 
First, it firmly establishes Kyle Shanahan as a horse whispering genius.  As Gruden said yesterday, there are Tebowesque-level deficiencies in Griffin's game -- not arm strength, certainly, but very basic footwork, vision and other very elemental aspects of playing the position.
 
"Raw" would be the label attached to RGIII if he were coming out this year, and the label that should have been attached when he was drafted.  World class sprinter speed (straight line, not elusiveness) should never have eclipsed that fact.  That Shanahan was able to help squeeze the performance out of RGIII that he delivered in 2012 says a lot of good about Shanahan.
 
Second, everything that culminated this week sheds a ton of light on all of the equivocation about Griffin on Gruden's part.  RGIII has a lot of basic deficiencies and isn't that good.
 
Finally, although over-the-top, Gruden's brutal honesty yesterday was totally in keeping with his candor, and a nice contrast with the passive-aggressive approach Mike Shanahan took to the QB.  There is no leaking; it's right out there.  But it's not insubordinate. 
 
Bottom line from Gruden:  you want to fire me Mr. Snyder, fire me.  NFLers will not blame me; they will blame you, and I'll be just fine.
 

Winger 03

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I felt badly for Gruden after seeing "apology" yesterday.  Somebody (Allen - Snyder - ???) got to him and gave him a little talking to.  Sad, I thought he was going to be able to do something.  I am glad for him that he got a 5 year deal.  Whatever happened here will not reduce his ability to get another job.  Everyone in the league realizes the "obstacles" here n WAS and no one will hold it against him.
 

dcdrew10

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Winger 03 said:
I felt badly for Gruden after seeing "apology" yesterday.  Somebody (Allen - Snyder - ???) got to him and gave him a little talking to.  Sad, I thought he was going to be able to do something.  I am glad for him that he got a 5 year deal.  Whatever happened here will not reduce his ability to get another job.  Everyone in the league realizes the "obstacles" here n WAS and no one will hold it against him.
I wouldn't be so sure. Not one of the head coaches hired by Snyder has gotten an NFL head coaching job after he left. Grudges is lucky that he's thought of as a up and coming guy and most of the other guys were on their second or third go arounds, but Snyder guts a lot of coaches.
 

Tony C

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Winger 03 said:
I felt badly for Gruden after seeing "apology" yesterday.  Somebody (Allen - Snyder - ???) got to him and gave him a little talking to.  Sad, I thought he was going to be able to do something.  I am glad for him that he got a 5 year deal.  Whatever happened here will not reduce his ability to get another job.  Everyone in the league realizes the "obstacles" here n WAS and no one will hold it against him.
 
It's not to defend RGIII to say that Gruden did fuck up. The public apology probably just exacerbated that, but like it or not he's stuck with RGIII and to publicly humiliate him like he did didn't serve Gruden's interests or the interests of the *skins. That said, the public apology is similar in that it undermines Gruden, in turn...so it all comes around. Bottom-line: everyone is better served by keeping things in-house, as is well known around here. It was a rookie move by Gruden just like it was by RGIII.
 

Winger 03

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dcdrew10 said:
I wouldn't be so sure. Not one of the head coaches hired by Snyder has gotten an NFL head coaching job after he left. Grudges is lucky that he's thought of as a up and coming guy and most of the other guys were on their second or third go arounds, but Snyder guts a lot of coaches.
But look at who he has had thus far.....
 
Norv who he inherited (and did find work later - but he still sucks)
Robiskie tho took over for Norv - career assistant save for another interim gig with Cleveland
Schottenheimer
Spurrier
Gibbs II
Zorn
Shanahan
Fredo Gruden
 
Some good names (Gibbs - Schottenheimer - Shanahan) with real NFL pedigrees.  But Gibbs was not going to get another look anywhere by anyone else, Schottenheimer went to San Diego and the jury is out on if Shanahan returns.  The rest of the bunch were JAG's including Spurrier whose offense will never work in the NFL.
 
I think Gruden is the guy who can and will find meaningful HC work in the NFL after he is done here.  Not to draw a parallel, but was anyone really high on Belichick after Cleveland?  Point being is that you can fail in a shitty situation and not really tarnish your star too much.
 
I am so fed up with this team, constant BS and no change on the horizon.
 

Hagios

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My apologies if this is not appropriate for the forum, but I thought that Cooley's analysis is detailed enough to be of general interest to all football fans, and not just for those of us with the misfortune of being Redskins fans.
 
 
 
“It’s a pop-pass that he is looking to throw to the tight end,” Cooley said. “He takes no drop, which is fine. Jordan Reed (the red circle)  is open. It’s a read-option look. Jordan Reed is open over the middle. You throw the ball. Boom. Ball out, throw. You’ve got to throw the ball into coverage, and he’s not even that covered. Throw the ball.
 
“Beyond that, he’s got a little bubble screen out to the right. [The wide receiver, the blue circle, is] wide open. So if you don’t like the pop pass initially, you go bubble screen outside of that. That’s the read. The read is if they collapse on pop pass — tight end over the middle, which is a 10-yard, easy gain — go directly to bubble screen.
 
“He doesn’t go to bubble screen,” Cooley said. “He goes to scramble left. And in the midst of scramble left — which he cannot do, he cannot move to his left, at all… — he looks to see Niles Paul (the purple circle).  ...
 
.http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/11/19/chris-cooley-rgiii-was-so-bad-i-cant-assess-the-rest-of-the-redskins-offense/
 

Corsi

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It's even more damning if you include the photo of the two receivers he moved off of:
 
 

dcmissle

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Context for those not in DC:
 
Chris Cooley regularly does detailed and lengthy analysis and positional breakdowns based on extensive film study.  It's the kind of stuff rarely heard on sports radio -- (I've never heard anything approaching it in Boston, Smerlas and DeOssie notwithstanding) --  stuff that lots of folks here would like a lot.
 
He critiqued RGIII's last game earlier this week through two radio segments totaling at least 20 minutes.  Devastating.  Verdict -- QB play was so bad in that game, that it provided no hope of anyone else on the team getting any better.  Credible verdict because Cooley wants RGIII to succeed and is generally even handed.
 
Five minutes after these segments ran, the leading beat writer in DC called the show and said that this was the stuff Snyder really needed to hear, and that unless RGIII showed substantial progress over the remaining 6 weeks, he should be out of here.  This is more than idle speculation, for if this team continues its downward spiral, it's going to be positioned to draft a QB high.
 
So this whole place is like, "wow ... we had no idea."  Transformational moment. 
 

Marciano490

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How do these guys get to this position with mechanical flaws, and why does it seem like mechanical flaws are more devastating as a QB than in other sports?
 
RG3 is a phenomenal athlete; why can't he get his feet right?  Is it a coachability issue?  I know boxers can have great careers with awful footwork, so why is it so devastating here?  Just seems odd to give up on a guy with so much obvious talent and potential.
 

Hagios

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Marciano490 said:
How do these guys get to this position with mechanical flaws, and why does it seem like mechanical flaws are more devastating as a QB than in other sports?
 
RG3 is a phenomenal athlete; why can't he get his feet right?  Is it a coachability issue?  I know boxers can have great careers with awful footwork, so why is it so devastating here?  Just seems odd to give up on a guy with so much obvious talent and potential.
 
 
I've been wondering that myself. My best guess is that RG3 has been exploiting one of those Moneyball-esque market inefficiencies with the read-option. I recall seeing a study somewhere that it averaged 7.8 yards per play (or somesuch) in 2012 and only 4.8 (or somesuch) in 2013. (It was also being run more frequently in 2013). Now that defenses have caught up to the read-option RG3's poor fundamentals are being exposed. (Tangent: I've wondered if the Pats' renewed emphasis on the running game is because the pendulum has swung too far and now the Pats are exploiting a defensive inefficiency).
 
I'd be curious what the folks who actually live in DC think. Has Cooley compared RG3's current footwork and throwing mechanics to his rookie season?
 

dcmissle

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Word is here that it's work ethic.  Not on the physical side, obviously, but in knowing what he needs to do and when he needs to do it.  Film study.  Having the play book so internalized that it's as natural as English.
 
The safety valve -- running -- is impaired.  The novelty of read-option is gone.  2012 is gone, forever.
 

Winger 03

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Agreed with dcmissle.  He needs to be instinctual with his play, but not instinctual with what he has done in the past (read option - run) because he cannot do that any longer.  What he needs to be instinctual with is something he does not really know because he has gotten by for so long on what he was good at he did not learn the fundamentals of the position.  I think I confused myself with that....
 
As an aside every time I see Luck i can dream of what might have been if the Colts picked style over substance.
 

Hagios

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DanoooME said:
 
Except this team is owned by Dan Snyder, who is a total star f*cker.  I'd say Jay Gruden is out of there after one year and Snyder will go find someone RGIII will get along with.
 
For a year. Maybe.
 
Lather, rinse, repeat.
 
Yup. Then eventually Synder will tire of RG3 and win another offseason Superbowl with another trade and have a new best friend/coach killer to pal around with.
 

Jnai

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Is anyone else slightly uncomfortable with labeling rg3 as a super-athlete with a bad work ethic?

It may be true in this case, but we also know very little about him and this might just be an easy label to put on a black qb.
 

Marciano490

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Jnai said:
Is anyone else slightly uncomfortable with labeling rg3 as a super-athlete with a bad work ethic?

It may be true in this case, but we also know very little about him and this might just be an easy label to put on a black qb.
What the fuck?
 

soxfan121

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Jnai said:
Is anyone else slightly uncomfortable with labeling rg3 as a super-athlete with a bad work ethic?

It may be true in this case, but we also know very little about him and this might just be an easy label to put on a black qb.
 
Not in the slightest. First, he used to be super-athletic. Much of this thread is dedicated to his injuries and the effect they have had on his physical skills. Second, what little we do know is that multiple NFL head coaches have had problems with his work ethic. 
 
No one who has watched Washington and RG3 play this season would think race is a factor.
 

Marciano490

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He's either stupid, stubborn or lazy. Which would be the least racist theory? Stubborn?
 

Jnai

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soxfan121 said:
 
Not in the slightest. First, he used to be super-athletic. Much of this thread is dedicated to his injuries and the effect they have had on his physical skills. Second, what little we do know is that multiple NFL head coaches have had problems with his work ethic. 
 
No one who has watched Washington and RG3 play this season would think race is a factor.
 
Maybe it's off base, but I figured that the superstar black athlete with a bad work ethic might be a trope we all might casually accept with little questioning because of decades of institutional racism in the NFL that has traditionally kept talented black athletes from being QBs and pushed them into other roles like RB and WR.
 
I think it's worth mentioning here. Not to give RG3 a free pass if his work ethic really is bad, but that we (and the greater media) are probably much less critical of these labels when they're given to black athletes.
 
Marciano490 said:
He's either stupid, stubborn or lazy. Which would be the least racist theory? Stubborn?
 
And there you go.
 

Marciano490

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You're taking a disgusting and cynical position and I refuse to be the subject of it. Really, how pathetic is your life that you get satisfaction from judging people on the internet? Who appointed you arbiter of anything? Last I remember you you were gleefully disseminating gossip about who might've been the marathon bomber.

What's your benign and acceptable reason for why a phenomenal athlete (and I'm calling him that because he played two sports at a very high level, not because he's black) can't master things that are only elusive to those who don't want to practice them?
 

Jnai

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Marciano490 said:
You're taking a disgusting and cynical position and I refuse to be the subject of it. Really, how pathetic is your life that you get satisfaction from judging people on the internet? Who appointed you arbiter of anything? Last I remember you you were gleefully disseminating gossip about who might've been the marathon bomber.

What's your benign and acceptable reason for why a phenomenal athlete (and I'm calling him that because he played two sports at a very high level, not because he's black) can't master things that are only elusive to those who don't want to practice them?
 
I expect you to be outright banned for such flagrant bullshit. Like, if you're still a member of this board by morning, some shit has gone seriously wrong.
 
My post was about how it's kind of uncomfortable to be throwing around "work ethic" labels on black athletes. I don't see why it inspired this kind of reaction, much less accused me of some shit with the marathon bombings.
 
Seriously. You should be banned. Now.
 

Super Nomario

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Marciano490 said:
What's your benign and acceptable reason for why a phenomenal athlete (and I'm calling him that because he played two sports at a very high level, not because he's black) can't master things that are only elusive to those who don't want to practice them?
I don't think the bolded is remotely true. Approximately 100% of young quarterbacks enter the NFL with footwork and mechanics that are problematic at times, especially those like RGIII who aren't from pro-style college offenses. You could write everything you wrote about Tim Tebow, a great athlete who had zero work-ethic-related questions, and he still could never figure out remotely acceptable footwork and mechanics at the NFL level.
 

Marciano490

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Super Nomario said:
I don't think the bolded is remotely true. Approximately 100% of young quarterbacks enter the NFL with footwork and mechanics that are problematic at times, especially those like RGIII who aren't from pro-style college offenses. You could write everything you wrote about Tim Tebow, a great athlete who had zero work-ethic-related questions, and he still could never figure out remotely acceptable footwork and mechanics at the NFL level.
And I'll say the same thing about Tebow based on my decade and a half of training and training with high level athletes across various sports - if we wanted to master footwork he would've devoted time and resources to doing so. There are a lot of reasons why athletes have sloppy technique and many who are able to overcome it throughout their careers. But when an athlete's career is being hindered or derailed by technical deficiencies that he refuses to correct, there's only one of three explanations for that and I listed those above.
 

Super Nomario

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Greg Cosell often talks about (as he did today on the Ross Tucker Football Podcast) that NFL teams are focused on game plans and next week's game and don't have time to spend on fundamentals and mechanics. The same is true in college. This made me wonder if RGIII has a throwing coach (like Brady famously does). He does.
 
 
-Shea is currently training David Fales, QB, San Jose State for the 2014 NFL Draft at Athletes Performance in Phoenix, Arizona.
-Shea developed & trained 2013 NFL fourth round draft selection Tyler Wilson for the 2014 NFL Draft.
-Shea developed & trained Heisman Trophy Winning Quarterback, Robert Griffin III (Baylor) for the 2012 NFL Draft.  RG3 was the overall #2 NFL draft pick by the Washington Redskins.
-Shea developed & trained 2011 NFL first round, #10 overall draft selection Blaine Gabbert (Jacksonville Jaguars).
-Shea developed & trained 2010 overall #1 NFL draft pick Sam Bradford (St. Louis Rams).
-He prepared the 2009 #1 overall NFL draft pick Matthew Stafford (Detroit Lions).
-Shea trained & developed NFL first round draft picks Josh Freeman (Tampa Buccaneers) & Brady Quinn (Denver Broncos).
So maybe this guy is the fuckin' problem. Yikes, that is as bad a track record as you could possibly put together.
 

SumnerH

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I dunno, if he trained them incoming until the NFL and someone else took over later, rg3 and Bradford aren't bad results.
 

Reverend

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Marciano490 said:
You're taking a disgusting and cynical position and I refuse to be the subject of it. Really, how pathetic is your life that you get satisfaction from judging people on the internet? Who appointed you arbiter of anything? Last I remember you you were gleefully disseminating gossip about who might've been the marathon bomber.
What's your benign and acceptable reason for why a phenomenal athlete (and I'm calling him that because he played two sports at a very high level, not because he's black) can't master things that are only elusive to those who don't want to practice them?
  
Jnai said:
I expect you to be outright banned for such flagrant bullshit. Like, if you're still a member of this board by morning, some shit has gone seriously wrong.
 
My post was about how it's kind of uncomfortable to be throwing around "work ethic" labels on black athletes. I don't see why it inspired this kind of reaction, much less accused me of some shit with the marathon bombings.
 
Seriously. You should be banned. Now.
Personally, I'm not expecting to see anybody get banned over la Who-Is-More-Liberal fiight where the ships passed each other in the night.

Yeah, whether or not black quarterback is unsuccessful because he's lazy and leans on "innate physical talent" is and old racist trope. It's worth being cognizant of.

But if that same qb is fucking up, and really is, then things get complicated. I mean, we all know he's physically talented--that is irrefutable. So if he fucks up in games, what is it?

That's where this got weird.

I mean, he is missing his reads right? If I'm not mistaken, Marciano was tring to suggest that if we aren't willing to consider laziness or bad work ethic as options, well, then, given physical skills, we are left with him being dumb as rocks and inherently unable to play.

We would never attribute that to race, I hope, so why is laziness etc attributed to race?

The facials concern in criticism is valid, esp. Of QBs. But when a guy sucks, there's gotta be a reason. In the case of a black qb, sadly, almost any reason you can bring up has racial overtones, simply because blackness brings that with it.

Not to get all V&N here, but you liberals eat your young. I mean, a fight about who is fucking over the black people by being in sufficiently attentive to stereotypes versus not realizing the damage promulgated by attentiveness to those stereotypes?

Go start a fund or something. Together. Or take it to backwash where you will discover you are on the same side.
 

cromulence

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No, you didn't get too V&N at all. This was totally a thread about those stupid liberals.
 
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Glad to hear there's some "facials concern," but I suspect that somewhere in the dark nether regions of SOSH there's a thread for that sort of thing, as well. Maybe go there.
 

Eric Ampersand

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Considering that I listen to The Drive on my way home regularly, allow me to weigh in. The other day Cooley said that Robert would probably ace a written test on the offense. Robert knows what to do but can't seem to apply it on the field. Robert works hard but only in areas that are already strengths. You don't come back from a severe knee injury as quickly as Robert unless you put in the rehab work.

My opinion is that his problems are mental. He puts himself under pressure to perform and loses his poise. He also doesn't know how to lead or communicate well. If he did, then we wouldn't hear about all these locker room problems involving #10. His Lt. Coach attitude seems to really get in the way of doing his job.
 

Toe Nash

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Marciano490 said:
And I'll say the same thing about Tebow based on my decade and a half of training and training with high level athletes across various sports - if we wanted to master footwork he would've devoted time and resources to doing so. There are a lot of reasons why athletes have sloppy technique and many who are able to overcome it throughout their careers. But when an athlete's career is being hindered or derailed by technical deficiencies that he refuses to correct, there's only one of three explanations for that and I listed those above.
Why are you so sure they can just fix it with practice? Everything we read about Tebow was that he worked hard and he didn't figure it out.
 
What if it's really difficult to re-learn something you've done one way for years AND do so at not just a high level but the very highest in the world?
 
I mean, you can't just fix your footwork and mechanics, you have to be near-perfect with them while still being able to throw accurately and with power. We hear about pitchers having slight injuries or mechanical changes which mess up their whole game -- imagine that, but you also have to be running around avoiding sacks. I mean, there are only ~10-15 guys in the world who can play NFL QB at a top level, but there are lots of guys who can throw a football hard and accurately. It's really difficult and it doesn't surprise me in the least that some QBs can't master one part of it.
 

Average Reds

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Jnai said:
 
I expect you to be outright banned for such flagrant bullshit. Like, if you're still a member of this board by morning, some shit has gone seriously wrong.
 
My post was about how it's kind of uncomfortable to be throwing around "work ethic" labels on black athletes. I don't see why it inspired this kind of reaction, much less accused me of some shit with the marathon bombings.
 
Seriously. You should be banned. Now.
 
Let me begin by stating that tone sometimes does not translate well, so please do not take this as an effort to inflame things.
 
Marciano will not be banned for this.  I understand that your suggestion was in the heat of anger, but it was misguided.  Further, while I believe he might have overreacted, Marciano's outrage is grounded in reason. 
 
Nothing Marciano said has a racial component to it.  He's simply pointing out that RGIII is (or was, pre-injury) a phenomenal athlete who got by on raw talent.  Post-injury, his lack of fundamentals (like footwork and the ability to work through his progressions and make the right read) are being exposed.  This is a problem, and if he can't or won't address it by modifying his approach, he's not going to be a successful QB in the NFL.
 
I'll grant you that there used to be a distinctly racial component to the labelling of any black QB as an "Athlete."  I'm old enough to remember when this sort of slur was the common, polite way of implying that black QBs may have the athletic talent, but lacked the smarts to be an NFL QB.  And yes, for many years when I would hear that label being applied I would feel distinctly uncomfortable about it.  In some circumstances, I still feel that way.
 
This is not one of those circumstances.  RGIII may very well have the smarts and the work ethic to succeed, but his stubbornness in not changing his approach is getting in the way.  (I believe that this was the key to why Tebow never made it.)  Or it may be that he doesn't have the work ethic or he can't adjust to the pro game.  Would I have been as strident in my analysis as Marciano was?  Probably not.  That doesn't make him wrong.  And it certainly doesn't imply that there's any racial component to his comments.
 

cromulence

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Toe Nash said:
Why are you so sure they can just fix it with practice? Everything we read about Tebow was that he worked hard and he didn't figure it out.
 
What if it's really difficult to re-learn something you've done one way for years AND do so at not just a high level but the very highest in the world?
 
I mean, you can't just fix your footwork and mechanics, you have to be near-perfect with them while still being able to throw accurately and with power. We hear about pitchers having slight injuries or mechanical changes which mess up their whole game -- imagine that, but you also have to be running around avoiding sacks. I mean, there are only ~10-15 guys in the world who can play NFL QB at a top level, but there are lots of guys who can throw a football hard and accurately. It's really difficult and it doesn't surprise me in the least that some QBs can't master one part of it.
 
Did we read that about Tebow? The stuff I most remember reading about Tebow was that he's always been a terrible practice player (I was going to cite sources but it's not even worth it - google "Tebow Bad Practice Player"). He got away with it in Florida, but not in the NFL.
 

Marciano490

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Again, there's a huge difference between being a hard worker and being willing to work hard at various aspects of your game. Just because you can put in 2 hours every day at the batting cage doesn't necessarily mean you're equally willing to take grounders till your palm hurts.  I have no doubt that Tebow, RG3 et al work really, really hard.  I question whether they work really, really hard at the things they actually need to get better at.
 
I killed myself training when I fought.  Four to five hours a day, six days a week.  There was nobody who could say I wasn't a hard worker.  But, I hated working defense.  I was a come forward fighter, and could never be bothered to work on my defensive game.  Was I a hard worker? Yes, but I was also stubborn and lazy.
 
Add to that the fact that it's incredibly difficult to be willing to take a step back to take two forward.  These are people who've dominated at every level since they were 5 years old doing what comes natural to them.  Now they have to go against reflex and muscle memory and spend a month, a season whatever sucking.  It's hard.  It's frustrating.  If you're a pitcher who could throw 90 since high school, but with a motion that's going to get you Prior'ed, it's a ton to ask to spend 3 months sitting in the low 80s while you learn a new technique, rewire your muscle memory, build up different muscles, etc.
 
I'm a pretty good powerlifter.  Not the RG3 of powerlifting, but I've won a bit here and there, set some local records here and there.  I'd be a lot better if I took 100 pounds off the bar and learned proper technique.  Rather, instituted proper technique.  I know how to lift, I can tell other people how to lift, I know what I should be doing.  But, it's just insanely difficult for me to start over with the weights I was using in high school in order to learn to use my body's leverages better and eventually hit new PRs.  Again, I'm stubborn and lazy.
 
It's impossible to master technique without a certain level of athleticism. I've boxed with guys for years who could never look right throwing a punch.  You need a baseline amount of coordination.  RG3 has that athleticism.  You can say that for the same reason you can say that about Rodgers - his fluidity of movement, his reflexes, his bodily control, etc.  He has the athleticism to make his body do and go what and where he wants.  If he's been unable to nail down proper footwork given that level of athleticism and coordination, there can be only the excuses I mentioned above.
 
Even the simplest tasks involving sports require massive amounts of technique.  Look at running - something we've all done since we were 2, 3 years old.  Go to Charlie Francis's site sometime and read how to run properly.  Stride length, hand configuration, how to swing your arms, how to position your mouth, breathing, how to relax your traps, etc.  Lots of guys are naturally fast and never bother to start from scratch and learn to run to their full potential.  Lorenzo Cain did, and look how it paid off.  Gronk could probably add a MPH or two to his topline speed if he really wanted to learn to run right.  But, again, after 20-plus years being the biggest, baddest and the fastest, who wants to add time to film study, weight training, regular practice, etc. learning how to do something all over again?
 

mascho

Kane is Able
SoSH Member
Nov 30, 2007
14,952
Silver Spring, Maryland
Toe Nash said:
Why are you so sure they can just fix it with practice? Everything we read about Tebow was that he worked hard and he didn't figure it out.
 
What if it's really difficult to re-learn something you've done one way for years AND do so at not just a high level but the very highest in the world?
 
I mean, you can't just fix your footwork and mechanics, you have to be near-perfect with them while still being able to throw accurately and with power. We hear about pitchers having slight injuries or mechanical changes which mess up their whole game -- imagine that, but you also have to be running around avoiding sacks. I mean, there are only ~10-15 guys in the world who can play NFL QB at a top level, but there are lots of guys who can throw a football hard and accurately. It's really difficult and it doesn't surprise me in the least that some QBs can't master one part of it.
 
That's it in a nutshell.
 
His entire life, Tim Tebow was able to win football games using his feet and incredible athletic ability and determination. In HS and college, he could tuck the ball and either run away from, or over, defenders. Urban Meyer's job was to win games, not prepare Tebow for the pros, so he had little incentive to polish his mechanics.
 
When Tebow got to the pros, what worked for him in the past was not enough in the NFL. Sure, he could make some guys miss and break some tackles, but not with nearly the same amount of success that he had when younger, against easier competition.  
 
You can work on polishing mechanics all you want. You can put in hours with throwing coaches getting your feet set, shoulders turned, pulling through with the lead arm, high release, all of that stuff. You can look like a Hall of Fame QB in every 7-on-7 drill you run. But when you find yourself in live action, the things that worked for you in the past flash into your mind every single time you sense trouble. It's pure muscle memory. You can't undo 8 or more years of it.... You sense the pressure and your mind and body revert to what you used to be able to do. 
 
I used 8 years because, well, that's how many years I played QB before I got to college. In both Pop Warner and high school, I was faster than most people on the field. So I ran the ball. A lot. It got me out of pressure and I kept plays alive all the time using my feet. But when I got to college, even at the D3 level, my speed was no longer the weapon it once was. Coaches tried with me my freshman year to work me into more of a pocket passer. But every single time that internal clock started going off, I'd look to tuck the ball and go. And what used to be 10 yard gains ended up 2 yard gains, because guys could close on me quicker. They moved me to WR as a sophomore but due to injuries and transfers I moved back to QB as a junior. And one day during practice the same issues popped up, and our old, crochety WR coach (who would chew cigars rather than chewing tobacco. That's hardcore) pulled me aside and told me that my [bleeping-bleeping] feet were the reason I never won the job. Once they got moving I couldn't turn them off.
 
I think it is the same thing with RG3. Guy with almost world class speed was able to run away from guys in college. Now, with more lower body injuries to his name and in the NFL, he can't simply run away from guys. But he can't undo years of success doing just that. It is seared into his brain. 
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
If we cannot allow some rhetorical latitude and assume each other's good faith, then this thread might as well be locked.
 
Nothing above makes me feel the least bit uncomfortable, particularly since the individuals who allegedly made borderline posts have no track record of prejudice or insensitivity.
 
It's about individuals, not race. 
 
JaMarcus Russell was indisputably lazy, and tragically pissed away a wealth of talent.
 
Heath Shuler, who went on to a substantial career in Congress and accumulated great personal wealth in real estate, was indisputably stupid in a football sense, dumber than a box full of hammers.
 
Yet nobody thought either of these characterizations was ill motivated, and rightly so.
 

Hagios

New Member
Dec 15, 2007
672
I am not a great athlete and I have not trained great athletes so take this for what it's worth:
 
Footwork and fundamentals: I'll bet that Tim Tebow and RG3 can both run agility ladders like champs. And I'll bet that if they're in practice they can do perfect 3, 5, and 7 foot drops and slides and step-ups in the pocket. But when you've developed certain bad habits over years of play at game speed, you can't simply rip them out and replace them with new ones. I'll bet there are a bunch of SoSH'ers here who have made it a point to expose their kids to sports in a certain way to prevent them from developing bad habits. Now pros have a lot more coordination, but years of neural patterns are not easily changed for anyone no matter how gifted. So I think there's a realistic possibility that RG3 will never improve his fundamentals.
 
Making reads: I don't think this skill can be taught unless you have it. Take Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning. At the speed of the college game I'll bet they both could see the whole field and track the action of all the players. But only one of the two could do this at the speed of the pro game. It's that Wayne Gretzky sixth sense of "I don't skate to the puck, I skate to where the puck is going to be." You can never know which quarterback can do this at NFL speeds until they've been in the NFL. If RG3 doesn't have fast enough real-time information processing to keep up with the NFL then 100 hours of film study per week won't make a difference.