QB Play in Washington

[coremiller]

Making reads: I don't think this skill can be taught unless you have it. Take Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning. At the speed of the college game I'll bet they both could see the whole field and track the action of all the players. But only one of the two could do this at the speed of the pro game. It's that Wayne Gretzky sixth sense of "I don't skate to the puck, I skate to where the puck is going to be." You can never know which quarterback can do this at NFL speeds until they've been in the NFL. If RG3 doesn't have fast enough real-time information processing to keep up with the NFL then 100 hours of film study per week won't make a difference. 

 
I think the bolded is an important point.  [SIZE=14.4444446563721px]The making reads part of being an NFL QB is probably the most important skill for an NFL QB, but I hate seeing people equate it with intelligence.  Making correct reads is essentially high-speed visual pattern recognition under stress conditions.  It has almost nothing to do with intelligence as we normally conceptualize it.   Reading defenses is a very different mental skill from having a thorough intellectual/conceptual understanding of everything that's going on.  You could have the playbook and all the reads down cold -- you could know exactly that X play out of Y formation/personnel group is designed to get the tight end matched up against a Cover-2 linebacker b/c linebacker coverage is this week's opponent's weakness, using an out-breaking route because that MLB likes to play with inside leverage, but if the safety shades to that side then the split end on the backside should be open on the post route, etc. and you could know that stuff thoroughly for every play in the game plan -- but if you can't rapidly process visual information in real-time while 280 LB men try to rip your head off, all that knowledge is useless.  There have been very bright guys who failed at QB because they couldn't do that, and relatively dim guys who were excellent.[/SIZE]

 

[Super Nomario]

Again, there's a huge difference between being a hard worker and being willing to work hard at various aspects of your game. Just because you can put in 2 hours every day at the batting cage doesn't necessarily mean you're equally willing to take grounders till your palm hurts.  I have no doubt that Tebow, RG3 et al work really, really hard.  I question whether they work really, really hard at the things they actually need to get better at.
 
I killed myself training when I fought.  Four to five hours a day, six days a week.  There was nobody who could say I wasn't a hard worker.  But, I hated working defense.  I was a come forward fighter, and could never be bothered to work on my defensive game.  Was I a hard worker? Yes, but I was also stubborn and lazy.
 
Add to that the fact that it's incredibly difficult to be willing to take a step back to take two forward.  These are people who've dominated at every level since they were 5 years old doing what comes natural to them.  Now they have to go against reflex and muscle memory and spend a month, a season whatever sucking.  It's hard.  It's frustrating.  If you're a pitcher who could throw 90 since high school, but with a motion that's going to get you Prior'ed, it's a ton to ask to spend 3 months sitting in the low 80s while you learn a new technique, rewire your muscle memory, build up different muscles, etc.
 
I'm a pretty good powerlifter.  Not the RG3 of powerlifting, but I've won a bit here and there, set some local records here and there.  I'd be a lot better if I took 100 pounds off the bar and learned proper technique.  Rather, instituted proper technique.  I know how to lift, I can tell other people how to lift, I know what I should be doing.  But, it's just insanely difficult for me to start over with the weights I was using in high school in order to learn to use my body's leverages better and eventually hit new PRs.  Again, I'm stubborn and lazy.
 
It's impossible to master technique without a certain level of athleticism. I've boxed with guys for years who could never look right throwing a punch.  You need a baseline amount of coordination.  RG3 has that athleticism.  You can say that for the same reason you can say that about Rodgers - his fluidity of movement, his reflexes, his bodily control, etc.  He has the athleticism to make his body do and go what and where he wants.  If he's been unable to nail down proper footwork given that level of athleticism and coordination, there can be only the excuses I mentioned above.
 
Even the simplest tasks involving sports require massive amounts of technique.  Look at running - something we've all done since we were 2, 3 years old.  Go to Charlie Francis's site sometime and read how to run properly.  Stride length, hand configuration, how to swing your arms, how to position your mouth, breathing, how to relax your traps, etc.  Lots of guys are naturally fast and never bother to start from scratch and learn to run to their full potential.  Lorenzo Cain did, and look how it paid off.  Gronk could probably add a MPH or two to his topline speed if he really wanted to learn to run right.  But, again, after 20-plus years being the biggest, baddest and the fastest, who wants to add time to film study, weight training, regular practice, etc. learning how to do something all over again?

Thanks for the clarification. But it's not just about willingness, I think. During the season, teams and players are (rightly) focused on winning games - obviously RGIII isn't going to do the equivalent of "spending three months sitting in the low 80s" when he's got the 49ers on Sunday to worry about. This sort of stuff has to come during the offseason - and significantly, Griffin missed the entire offseason after his first year. He apparently put in some work with a throwing coach this offseason, but he's also working in a new offense this year. I guess my point is: that we haven't seen the results on the field doesn't mean that there isn't progress behind the scenes, or that Griffin (still just 24) lacks the personal qualities to make this kind of progress.
 

 
I think the bolded is an important point.  [SIZE=14.4444446563721px]The making reads part of being an NFL QB is probably the most important skill for an NFL QB, but I hate seeing people equate it with intelligence.  Making correct reads is essentially high-speed visual pattern recognition under stress conditions.  It has almost nothing to do with intelligence as we normally conceptualize it.   Reading defenses is a very different mental skill from having a thorough intellectual/conceptual understanding of everything that's going on.  You could have the playbook and all the reads down cold -- you could know exactly that X play out of Y formation/personnel group is designed to get the tight end matched up against a Cover-2 linebacker b/c linebacker coverage is this week's opponent's weakness, using an out-breaking route because that MLB likes to play with inside leverage, but if the safety shades to that side then the split end on the backside should be open on the post route, etc. and you could know that stuff thoroughly for every play in the game plan -- but if you can't rapidly process visual information in real-time while 280 LB men try to rip your head off, all that knowledge is useless.  There have been very bright guys who failed at QB because they couldn't do that, and relatively dim guys who were excellent.[/SIZE]

Agreed 100%. It's a kind of intelligence, but it does not necessarily correlate with classic "book smarts."

 

[soxfan121]

Agreed 100%. It's a kind of intelligence, but it does not necessarily correlate with classic "book smarts."

 
See Gronkowski, Robert James.

 

[mauf]

Like plate discipline in baseball, QB fundamentals are a learned skill that function a lot like innate ability at the highest level of the sport. Just as a 24-year outfielder who chases bad pitches won't learn to lay off them, a 24-year QB with bad footwork or mechanics is unlikely to fix those things. That doesn't mean an Alfonso Soriano or a Drew Bledsoe can't have a fine career with those limitations, but when you're trying to project the future of a WMB or RG3, you should assume those flaws aren't fixable.

And as an aside, Jnai's behavior in this thread is one of the worst things I've seen on SoSH. If you're going to insinuate that your fellow posters are racist, you had damn well better have a thick skin. I'm frankly surprised that Marciano is the only person who ripped into him.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Agreed 100%. It's a kind of intelligence, but it does not necessarily correlate with classic "book smarts."

Yup. Even Peyton, the classic example of a "thinking man's QB," got a 1030 on his SATs. Ryan Fitzpatrick got a 1580.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

And as an aside, Jnai's behavior in this thread is one of the worst things I've seen on SoSH. If you're going to insinuate that your fellow posters are racist, you had damn well better have a thick skin. I'm frankly surprised that Marciano is the only person who ripped into him.

Agreed. I'm just picking this thread up this morning and figured it was best to let sleeping dogs lie. But come the fuck on. That shit was disgraceful.

 

[DJnVa]

Is anyone else slightly uncomfortable with labeling rg3 as a super-athlete with a bad work ethic?

 
No.

 

[Marciano490]

Like plate discipline in baseball, QB fundamentals are a learned skill that function a lot like innate ability at the highest level of the sport. Just as a 24-year outfielder who chases bad pitches won't learn to lay off them, a 24-year QB with bad footwork or mechanics is unlikely to fix those things. That doesn't mean an Alfonso Soriano or a Drew Bledsoe can't have a fine career with those limitations, but when you're trying to project the future of a WMB or RG3, you should assume those flaws aren't fixable.

 
I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge of baseball that others here do, but aren't there examples of people fixing holes in their swing or their mechanics as they got older?  Did Randy Johnson improve his accuracy because of technical changes or just through experience and reputation.  What changes did Kazmir make when he was pretty much out of baseball?  Why do players get sent down to the minors like Halladay to work out kinks and start from scratch?  I'm not saying everyone does it, but isn't it at the least possible with diligence and dedication?
 
I can certainly think of examples in boxing, which is just as live action and think on your feet as football.  Wlad Klitschko totally changed his style after getting put down by a series of nobody fighters - Brewster, Sanders, etc. - and has since been untouchable.  Miguel Cotto learned to fight after 15 years in the sport.

 

[mauf]

 
I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge of baseball that others here do, but aren't there examples of people fixing holes in their swing or their mechanics as they got older?  Did Randy Johnson improve his accuracy because of technical changes or just through experience and reputation.  What changes did Kazmir make when he was pretty much out of baseball?  Why do players get sent down to the minors like Halladay to work out kinks and start from scratch?  I'm not saying everyone does it, but isn't it at the least possible with diligence and dedication?

My point about baseball was narrow, and related to plate discipline. Sure, Randy Johnson transformed himself as a pitcher, Wade Boggs learned how to play defense in the majors and ended up becoming a Gold Glover, and loads of LHBs were utterly incapable of hitting LHPs when they arrived in The Show but became quite good at it over time. But free-swingers almost never become disciplined hitters -- occasionally, a dominant slugger will get wise to teams pitching around him, but that guy who chases pitches in the dirt will probably never shake that habit, any more than a slow runner will become an intrepid base stealer.

I think QB mechanics are similar. RG3 can get better at reading defenses, or staying in the pocket, or any number of other things, but his mechanics probably are what they are at this point. Maybe he can have a good career with shaky mechanics, like Drew Bledsoe did, but if his future success hinges on improving those mechanics, he's likely fucked.

 

[Super Nomario]

My point about baseball was narrow, and related to plate discipline. Sure, Randy Johnson transformed himself as a pitcher, Wade Boggs learned how to play defense in the majors and ended up becoming a Gold Glover, and loads of LHBs were utterly incapable of hitting LHPs when they arrived in The Show but became quite good at it over time. But free-swingers almost never become disciplined hitters -- occasionally, a dominant slugger will get wise to teams pitching around him, but that guy who chases pitches in the dirt will probably never shake that habit, any more than a slow runner will become an intrepid base stealer.

I think QB mechanics are similar. RG3 can get better at reading defenses, or staying in the pocket, or any number of other things, but his mechanics probably are what they are at this point. Maybe he can have a good career with shaky mechanics, like Drew Bledsoe did, but if his future success hinges on improving those mechanics, he's likely fucked.

I think if you really sat down and tried to pick out anecdotes, you'd find just as many players who improved their plate discipline as improved their defense or control. Such dramatic improvements are going to be rare in any aspect, however.
 
The major difference between the NFL and MLB is that there is no minor leagues for development. Every rookie quarterback comes into the NFL needing to improve mechanics, footwork, reading defenses, and handle pressure. Most don't improve enough to be useful, fewer still improve enough to be great. But there are players who improve.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I think if you really sat down and tried to pick out anecdotes, you'd find just as many players who improved their plate discipline as improved their defense or control. Such dramatic improvements are going to be rare in any aspect, however.
 
The major difference between the NFL and MLB is that there is no minor leagues for development. Every rookie quarterback comes into the NFL needing to improve mechanics, footwork, reading defenses, and handle pressure. Most don't improve enough to be useful, fewer still improve enough to be great. But there are players who improve.

I agree that nobody enters the NFL as a finished product but there are certainly degrees of rawness and I think it does actually have a lot to do with the kind of football guys have played in the "minor leagues" - basically, college and high school. If we're talking about "high-speed visual pattern recognition under stress conditions" (Coremiller's nice phrase), then part of that is some kind of innate mental wiring but part of it is a product of repetition and muscle memory, stuff that can be rooted in very early experiences playing football and hard to change when you're in your 20s. Teasing out these things is almost impossible empirically, but I don't think its a surprise that when you look at the top pocket passers in the league, its almost entirely a group of guys who grew up in middle-class to upper-middle-class environments, were going to elite QB camps from an early age, often played for fairly big time high school programs that threw the ball a lot, and then went to college programs and played in offenses that weren't too weird or run-oriented. What you don't see a lot among the elite pocket passers in the NFL are guys that (a) picked up the QB position relatively late in life, like even as an upperclassman in high school or (b) were predominantly running or option QBs at the high school level, much less at the college level. Obviously, having the "right" kind of football exposure in high school and college is not sufficient for success at the NFL level - most of these guys never get a sniff or bust when they get there - but it may be close to necessary.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Rg3 wasn't a predominantly running or option QB in college, Baylor ran an Air Raid spread offense, throwing as much as anyone. He threw 400 times for over 4000 yards and ran for 700 his senior year. Just because a guy can run doesn't mean he's predominantly a runner. 
 
Not to say that Rg3 has the potential of Drew Brees, but Brees is an example of a guy who ran a spread offense in college (also ran a bit, 500 yds his senior season), struggled with bad footwork and trouble reading defenses for his first few seasons (29/31 TD/INT, <60% completions his first three seasons), and turned it around. He got benched for Doug Flutie one year. 

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Rg3 wasn't a predominantly running or option QB in college, Baylor ran an Air Raid spread offense, throwing as much as anyone. He threw 400 times for over 4000 yards and ran for 700 his senior year. Just because a guy can run doesn't mean he's predominantly a runner. 
 
Not to say that Rg3 has the potential of Drew Brees, but Brees is an example of a guy who ran a spread offense in college (also ran a bit, 500 yds his senior season), struggled with bad footwork and trouble reading defenses for his first few seasons (29/31 TD/INT, <60% completions his first three seasons), and turned it around. He got benched for Doug Flutie one year.

I'm not saying that guys can't improve in the pros or claiming that RGIII was a running QB in college or can't possibly become a strong pocket passer. I'm talking about a more general pattern regarding when and how guys are introduced to the QB position and the types of offenses they play within going back to high school (or maybe even earlier).

FWIW, my understanding is that Drew Brees is precisely one of these pocket QB lifers that I'm talking about - his family had all sorts of football roots and connections down in Texas, he probably went to all sorts of QB camps growing up, he definitely ent to one of these big-time high school programs (Austin-Westlake) and ran a very pass-heavy offense there, etc.

 

[Marciano490]

I'm not saying that guys can't improve in the pros or claiming that RGIII was a running QB in college or can't possibly become a strong pocket passer. I'm talking about a more general pattern regarding when and how guys are introduced to the QB position and the types of offenses they play within going back to high school (or maybe even earlier).

FWIW, my understanding is that Drew Brees is precisely one of these pocket QB lifers that I'm talking about - his family had all sorts of football roots and connections down in Texas, he probably went to all sorts of QB camps growing up, he definitely ent to one of these big-time high school programs (Austin-Westlake) and ran a very pass-heavy offense there, etc.

 
Someone needs to get Malcolm Gladwell on this theory.

 

[Super Nomario]

I agree that nobody enters the NFL as a finished product but there are certainly degrees of rawness and I think it does actually have a lot to do with the kind of football guys have played in the "minor leagues" - basically, college and high school. If we're talking about "high-speed visual pattern recognition under stress conditions" (Coremiller's nice phrase), then part of that is some kind of innate mental wiring but part of it is a product of repetition and muscle memory, stuff that can be rooted in very early experiences playing football and hard to change when you're in your 20s. Teasing out these things is almost impossible empirically, but I don't think its a surprise that when you look at the top pocket passers in the league, its almost entirely a group of guys who grew up in middle-class to upper-middle-class environments, were going to elite QB camps from an early age, often played for fairly big time high school programs that threw the ball a lot, and then went to college programs and played in offenses that weren't too weird or run-oriented. What you don't see a lot among the elite pocket passers in the NFL are guys that (a) picked up the QB position relatively late in life, like even as an upperclassman in high school or (b) were predominantly running or option QBs at the high school level, much less at the college level. Obviously, having the "right" kind of football exposure in high school and college is not sufficient for success at the NFL level - most of these guys never get a sniff or bust when they get there - but it may be close to necessary.

There are exceptions - Roethlisberger wasn't a QB until senior year of high school, Favre's high school team ran the option - but you may not be right. I'd be careful with this sort of generalization, however, because the spread option stuff where QBs are asked to both run and pass is fairly new and we don't know what the career path of guys like Newton, Kaepernick, Mariota, etc. is going to be. The traditional option QB skill set obviously wasn't going to translate to the NFL, but it's not clear where this new breed is going to end up.
 
What you say doesn't invalidate my earlier point, which is that growth once players enter the league is essential to success - no one enters fully formed. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, and Romo couldn't even see the field as rookies, Peyton, Eli, and Luck were inconsistent turnover machines. The best rookie quarterbacks have been guys like Wilson, Griffin, and Roethlisberger who played in run-heavy offenses that didn't ask them to take too much on their shoulders.

 

[mascho]

@thomloverro  ·  34m 34 minutes ago
QB guru Terry Shea tells "The Sports Fix" @espnradio980 #RGIII earned a B grade in play against Tampa

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Rg3 wasn't a predominantly running or option QB in college, Baylor ran an Air Raid spread offense, throwing as much as anyone. He threw 400 times for over 4000 yards and ran for 700 his senior year. Just because a guy can run doesn't mean he's predominantly a runner. 
 
 

 
He also wracked up his yards against some pretty terrible Division I passing defenses in 2011. Out of 120 D1 teams, the teams they played ranked pretty poorly in passing yards against.
 
Rice: 112th
TCU: 60th
KSU: 103rd
Iowa St: 73rd
Texas A&M: 109th
OK State: 107th
Missouri: 94th
Kansas: 110th
Oklahoma: 79th
Texas Tech: 66th
Texas: 42nd
Washington: 116th
 
They also didn't face a single top 25 defense (in points against), and only 4 teams in the top 50. RGIII may have thrown for some yards in college, but his success would lend more credence to him taking advantage of shitty defenses (and relying on arm strength/athleticism to elongate plays) opposed to him being a good throwing quarterback. 

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

There are exceptions - Roethlisberger wasn't a QB until senior year of high school, Favre's high school team ran the option - but you may not be right. I'd be careful with this sort of generalization, however, because the spread option stuff where QBs are asked to both run and pass is fairly new and we don't know what the career path of guys like Newton, Kaepernick, Mariota, etc. is going to be. The traditional option QB skill set obviously wasn't going to translate to the NFL, but it's not clear where this new breed is going to end up.
 
What you say doesn't invalidate my earlier point, which is that growth once players enter the league is essential to success - no one enters fully formed. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, and Romo couldn't even see the field as rookies, Peyton, Eli, and Luck were inconsistent turnover machines. The best rookie quarterbacks have been guys like Wilson, Griffin, and Roethlisberger who played in run-heavy offenses that didn't ask them to take too much on their shoulders.

I don't think we really disagree on much here. I'm just throwing out a theory trying to explain why and how the "minor leagues" might matter a bit more. But like all theories its asking way too much to be able to work in every case. And nothing about that theory suggests that growth once entering the league isn't essential to success. As you say, there are nearly no examples of guys that enter the NFL and are immediately great when asked to shoulder a heavy load in a passing-oriented attack. I thought Dan Marino might be an exception but looking back at his numbers even his 1983 Dolphins team ran a ton.

 

[Super Nomario]

 
He also wracked up his yards against some pretty terrible Division I passing defenses in 2011. Out of 120 D1 teams, the teams they played ranked pretty poorly in passing yards against.
 
Rice: 112th

Hey, F you Ross

 

[Infield Infidel]

 
He also wracked up his yards against some pretty terrible Division I passing defenses in 2011. Out of 120 D1 teams, the teams they played ranked pretty poorly in passing yards against.
 
Rice: 112th
TCU: 60th
KSU: 103rd
Iowa St: 73rd
Texas A&M: 109th
OK State: 107th
Missouri: 94th
Kansas: 110th
Oklahoma: 79th
Texas Tech: 66th
Texas: 42nd
Washington: 116th
 
They also didn't face a single top 25 defense (in points against), and only 4 teams in the top 50. RGIII may have thrown for some yards in college, but his success would lend more credence to him taking advantage of shitty defenses (and relying on arm strength/athleticism to elongate plays) opposed to him being a good throwing quarterback. 

 
I was comparing how much he ran to how much he threw, MMS clarified so his point is clearer now. 
 
I don't think you can look at sheer yardage or points to view if those pass defenses are good or not. As an example, Baylor last year had 359 passing ypg, Tennessee had 164 ypg. If you gave up 250 passing yards against Baylor you did awesome, if you gave up 250 passing yards against Tennessee you did terrible.
 
Many Big 12 teams play with high tempo offenses, so those numbers are always going to be high, because Big 12 teams run up to 100 plays a game. RG3 ypa in 2011 was 10.7 yards per pass, best in the country, .4 better than Russell Wilson. 
 
Let's look at yards per attempt against and ranking for those teams, you may be right but I'm curious to see. 
 
Team: ypaa, rank (RG3 ypa)
Rice: 8.4, 109th (10.2)
TCU: 7.1, 64th (13.3)
KSU: 7.2, 68th-tie (11.2)
Iowa St: 7.1, 68th-tie (7.1)
TA&M: 7.0, 56th (10.8)
OK St: 6.5, 24th-tie (8.5)
Mizzou: 6.7, 37th (9.9)
Kansas: 8.9, 119th (10.8)
Okla: 6.6, 34th-tie (14.1)
T Tech: 8.7, 115th (9.6)
Texas:6.0, 9th (14.5)
Wash: 7.6, 87th (8.9)
 
Yards per game avg rank. 89.25
Yards per play avg rank 65.8
 
Their per play rankings were significantly better, including one top ten team and another top 25. with 120 teams, 65.8 is a skosh below average in FBS. And that's including playing against the guy with the best ypa in the country. His highest ypa game (14.5 ypa) was against Texas, was not only the best ypa against team on the list, it's over twice what Texas gave up on average. Same for Oklahoma. Both games were wins for Baylor.
 
Let's see how they would have ranked if they didn't have the misfortune of playing Baylor
 
Rice: 8.4 ypa>8.2 ypa, 109th>108th
TCU: 7.1>6.7, 64th>37th
KSU: 7.2>6.9, 68>52nd
Iowa St: 7.1>7.1, 68>68th
TA&M: 7.0>6.7, 56th>37th
OK St: 6.5>6.3, 24th>17th
Mizzou: 6.7>6.5, 37th>24th
Kansas: 8.9>8.7, 119th>115th
Okla: 6.6>6.1, 34th>10th
T Tech: 8.7>8.6, 116th>115th
Texas: 6.0>5.6, 9th>4th
Wash: 7.6>7.5, 87th>83rd
 
Avg ranking including Baylor games: 65.8
Avg ranking without Baylor games: 55.8
 
Baylor, alone, was the difference between these teams finishing just below average and just above average. Without Baylor, Oklahoma was 10th in ypa against, with Baylor they were 34th. Baylor increased Texas's ypa against by 15%.
 
These teams didn't have poor pass defense collectively, against everyone else they were above average. 3 were very bad, one was bad, 2 were average, 2 were good, 2 were very good and 2 were elite in all non-Baylor games. Four were crappy and 8 were average to elite. And his best two ypa games were in wins against the best two teams on the schedule. 

 

[singaporesoxfan]

 
I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge of baseball that others here do, but aren't there examples of people fixing holes in their swing or their mechanics as they got older?  Did Randy Johnson improve his accuracy because of technical changes or just through experience and reputation.  What changes did Kazmir make when he was pretty much out of baseball?  Why do players get sent down to the minors like Halladay to work out kinks and start from scratch?  I'm not saying everyone does it, but isn't it at the least possible with diligence and dedication?
 
I can certainly think of examples in boxing, which is just as live action and think on your feet as football.  Wlad Klitschko totally changed his style after getting put down by a series of nobody fighters - Brewster, Sanders, etc. - and has since been untouchable.  Miguel Cotto learned to fight after 15 years in the sport.

SuperNomario mentioned it earlier, but as Greg Cosell said on the Ross Tucker podcast, there may simply not be enough time for any such training in-season. It may not be a work ethic or diligence thing. A QB has to spend time learning defense and learning the game plan (and RG3 seems to know the game plan, so he's putting that time in) - the mechanics are taken as a given. And RG3's spent so much offseason time rehabbing, which is time he couldn't really use to improve his footwork.

It seems in all the examples of drastically reworking mechanics (people sent down to minors, Tiger Woods remaking his swing) the person needed to spend significant time away from the topmost echelon of the sport.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Hey, F you Ross

I get my subtle digs in where I can.

 

[Tony C]

interesting tweet
 
 

Manny_PPI Emmanual Benton
Jim Harbaugh took a shot at the #Redskins. Basically said good organizations are into lifting up their players not tearing them down.
 

 
Couldn't agree more. Say what you will about RGIII, that organization is dysfunctional -- watched much of the game and Johnny Unitas wouldn't have had a chance against that pass rush. Don't doubt Gruden will use RGIII as his whipping boy again, though.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

@thomloverro  ·  34m 34 minutes ago
QB guru Terry Shea tells "The Sports Fix" @espnradio980 #RGIII earned a B grade in play against Tampa

WaPo expanded on this grade here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/11/22/terry-shea-says-robert-griffin-iiis-fundamentals-deserved-a-b-against-tampa-bay/. Biggest takeaway:
 

"I’d give him two grades,” Shea said. “One would be on production, and one would be on technique and accuracy or fundamentals. I’d say his fundamentals — not knowing what’s expected of him in terms of the different drops — I thought he threw the ball fundamentally sound. There was one time in the third quarter where he kind of hopped backwards and he lost his balance and his foundation on his footing. And that’s not good. You always put yourself in a position not to make a throw in that case. But from a fundamental technique standpoint, I’d give Robert a B grade.
 
“Now from a production standpoint, when you get tossed around in the red zone like the offense did — and I think I counted four different situations where they were 1st-and-15, and then they had a couple 3rd-and-20-plusses — I mean, those are no-win situations for the most part. So production-wise, you’d have to say well they scored one touchdown, so he’s no better than a C in terms of production.”

 

[mascho]

Local CBS news in DC just reported that Colt McCoy is starting Sunday in place of RG3, citing an Adam Schefter report.

 

[dcmissle]

http://central.sonsofsamhorn.net/nfl/life-after-robert-the-future-of-qb-play-in-washington/
 

Terminado.
Don't blame Shanahan. It is true that the elder was complicit in ripping up his knee, but the younger was instrumental in giving him what he otherwise would likely never have had -- a phenomenally successful, record shattering rookie season. Based on a system that his body could not sustain and that the NFL soon figured out.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

What's the point of benching him? What a dysfunctional organization.

 

[LondonSox]

This is so freakin dumb. You have to know Colt McCoy is not the answer at QB. I mean surely. The minor risk that's not the case and they think that he could be a long term answer, I'm going to go ahead and say would be even sadder.
 
You gave up a fortune to get RGIII he's played what 4 games this year and you need to decide this year if you're picking up his option for next year but you think the best plan is to make that decision without letting him play?
 
BEST case, Washington wins an extra game or two and gets a worse draft pick, and you still don't know anything about RGIII.
That's the best case.
 
Worst case (and most likely) you lose anyway, it makes no difference. You know know Colt McCoy isn't your guy. Congratulations, we all knew that anyway. And you have no guidance on what to do about the RGIII option.
 
I mean as an Eagles fan. Smooth move, please continue.

 

[Winger 03]

He is done here. Most likely cut during the offseason unless someone wants to give a low draft pick for him. Gruden realizes he is not a competent NFL QB and for the health of his coaching career this the the correct move. A little bit of a power play in that Snyder is allowing this to happen, this scenario was unimaginable just a few months ago - that the coach had more authority than the III.

 

[Super Nomario]

If RGIII has to make a lot of improvements to his mechanics and footwork, playing on Sundays is probably more of a distraction than anything. This is only really dumb if he's getting far fewer practice reps now.

 

[mauf]

You can't ask players to put their bodies on the line, then make coaching decisions the way a tanking NBA team would. If Gruden believes McCoy gives Washington its best chance to win, he has to start him. He has to be willing to lose his job over this, though I don't think it will come to that. (Snyder is a starfucker, but RG3 isn't a star anymore.)

 

[LondonSox]

You can't ask players to put their bodies on the line, then make coaching decisions the way a tanking NBA team would. If Gruden believes McCoy gives Washington its best chance to win, he has to start him. He has to be willing to lose his job over this, though I don't think it will come to that. (Snyder is a starfucker, but RG3 isn't a star anymore.)

 
I totally disagree. Playing Colt McCoy over both Cousins AND RGIII is giving up on the season and declaring you have no plan for the future either.
He's shit too, but little chance of improvement.

 

[axx]

 
I totally disagree. Playing Colt McCoy over both Cousins AND RGIII is giving up on the season and declaring you have no plan for the future either.
He's shit too, but little chance of improvement.

 
Perhaps this is an indication that the Skins are giving up on both and they want to see if Colt can be the backup next year?

 

[soxfan121]

If RGIII has to make a lot of improvements to his mechanics and footwork, playing on Sundays is probably more of a distraction than anything. This is only really dumb if he's getting far fewer practice reps now.

 
The idea that the backup quarterback gets more practice reps than the starter seems...flawed.

 

[dcmissle]

As an aside, it's great having a village scold in town.  Steve Czaban on radio driving home yesterday:
 
"2012 RGIII is not today's NFL ... Today's NFL is being a pocket passer, playing 15 years, going to Canton, and dating and banging supermodels ..."
 
There are some people who believe in back to the future.  Others not -- read-option has proven almost as gimmicky as Wildcat, and Russell Wilson just proves there is an exception to every rule.  That's a debate here, with Czaban in the former camp.
 
In any event, it's moot because RGIII certainly is unwilling, and perhaps unable, to revert to 2012.  And because he is so undeveloped as a conventional QB -- and because there is a team mutiny (talk to Garcon or DeSean Jackson) -- this move was necessary.  Super Nomario is right on about the futility of playing out the string this season.  Yes, RGIII IS that far away, and playing him the next 5 will only further damage very damaged goods. 

 

[Super Nomario]

 
The idea that the backup quarterback gets more practice reps than the starter seems...flawed.

Ideally he'd be getting a lot of one-on-one time with a position coach off to the side of the field or something, focusing on mechanics and footwork without the pressure of having to play in a game that week ... but I'm probably being naive.
 
At the end of the day, I'm not sure how much it really matters. He needs work, but specific kinds of work (as Marciano noted upthread), and kinds he's probably not going to get this year whether he starts or not.

 

[Average Reds]

 
I totally disagree. Playing Colt McCoy over both Cousins AND RGIII is giving up on the season and declaring you have no plan for the future either.
He's shit too, but little chance of improvement.

 
Or perhaps it's an acknowledgement by the owner that he fucked up badly by forcing the head coach to play RG III before he was fully healed.  Regardless, the question of whether they have given up on the season or not is something of a red herring, because their season has been shot for a long time now.
 
No one should argue with your larger point, which is that the Washington franchise is a completely dysfunctional mess.

 

[Marciano490]

Not much to add, but this is fairly shocking and sad.  I was a big fan of his coming out of Baylor and after Year 1.  What Shanahan did to him was criminal.

 

[Hagios]

Not much to add, but this is fairly shocking and sad.  I was a big fan of his coming out of Baylor and after Year 1.  What Shanahan did to him was criminal.

 
I think Shanahan wanted to bench him after his injury, but didn't have the power. Since Snyder likes to pal around with the stars, the star players end out with more power than the coaches. RG3 wanted to play so he played.

 

[dcmissle]

Marciano:
 
I share the sadness, but let me temper it.
 
1. A repeat of 2012 was never in the cards.  Yes, he tore ass through the League then, along with Kap and Wilson, but the League adjusted.  Wilson now is merely very good, Kap adequate.
 
2.  Even if the League had not adjusted,  RGIII could never have sustained that level of play physically.  People don't know it, but he is slight.  Everyone knows -- and you appreciate far more than most -- that he lacks elemental skills in protecting his slight frame.  In this respect, he is the polar opposite of Wilson.
 
3.  So, intelligently, RGIII aspires to become a more conventional QB.  Aaron Rodgers his role model.  What people didn't realize until the last week is just how far away from that RGIII is. 
 
What is fascinating about this locally -- and maybe even nationally -- is how quickly the scales have fallen from fans' eyes.  People are shocked.  That's what a couple of good film break downs by Chris Cooley will do.
 
All of a sudden, everything done and said by Gruden, the Shanahans before him, and his fellow players came into focus and now makes perfect sense.  It's the sports equivalent of what is happening with Bill Cosby right now.

 

[Devizier]

Nothing against Griffin, but I love watching the Foreskins suffer. So be it.

 

[Winger 03]

Well put.  The suddenness of the fall (or at least the realization of it) is staggering.
 
 

Marciano:
 
I share the sadness, but let me temper it.
 
1. A repeat of 2012 was never in the cards.  Yes, he tore ass through the League then, along with Kap and Wilson, but the League adjusted.  Wilson now is merely very good, Kap adequate.
 
2.  Even if the League had not adjusted,  RGIII could never have sustained that level of play physically.  People don't know it, but he is slight.  Everyone knows -- and you appreciate far more than most -- that he lacks elemental skills in protecting his slight frame.  In this respect, he is the polar opposite of Wilson.
 
3.  So, intelligently, RGIII aspires to become a more conventional QB.  Aaron Rodgers his role model.  What people didn't realize until the last week is just how far away from that RGIII is. 
 
What is fascinating about this locally -- and maybe even nationally -- is how quickly the scales have fallen from fans' eyes.  People are shocked.  That's what a couple of good film break downs by Chris Cooley will do.
 
All of a sudden, everything done and said by Gruden, the Shanahans before him, and his fellow players came into focus and now makes perfect sense.  It's the sports equivalent of what is happening with Bill Cosby right now.

 

[Marciano490]

Marciano:
 
I share the sadness, but let me temper it.
 
1. A repeat of 2012 was never in the cards.  Yes, he tore ass through the League then, along with Kap and Wilson, but the League adjusted.  Wilson now is merely very good, Kap adequate.
 
2.  Even if the League had not adjusted,  RGIII could never have sustained that level of play physically.  People don't know it, but he is slight.  Everyone knows -- and you appreciate far more than most -- that he lacks elemental skills in protecting his slight frame.  In this respect, he is the polar opposite of Wilson.
 
3.  So, intelligently, RGIII aspires to become a more conventional QB.  Aaron Rodgers his role model.  What people didn't realize until the last week is just how far away from that RGIII is. 
 
What is fascinating about this locally -- and maybe even nationally -- is how quickly the scales have fallen from fans' eyes.  People are shocked.  That's what a couple of good film break downs by Chris Cooley will do.
 
All of a sudden, everything done and said by Gruden, the Shanahans before him, and his fellow players came into focus and now makes perfect sense.  It's the sports equivalent of what is happening with Bill Cosby right now.

 
It's probably a far different and more complex topic, but I've always been fascinated by everything that's required to become a high level athlete.  You see guys with all the gifts in the world save one or two, and the shaky foundation eventually crumbles or guys with all the physical tools and none of the mental ones.  I just hate seeing potential fail, but maybe I've watch A Bronx Tale too many times.

 

[AB in DC]

I don't know why Jay Gruden is getting off so easy in this mess.  Successful coaches adapt their offense (or defense) to fit the strengths of the players on their offense (or defense).  Bad coaches install "their" system regardless of whether he has players who can run it, then spends entire seasons trying to force square pegs into round holes.
 
 
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/rg3-robert-griffin-10-possible-destinations/

He hasn’t looked anything like the guy who excelled in 2012, in part because Gruden has taken out the packaged plays and Baylor conceptsthat Kyle Shanahan installed in his scheme for Griffin coming out of college. Per ESPN Stats & Information, Washington has executed just 24 zone-read runs on offense this season. In 2012, Washington ran 118 such plays, and that’s without considering the plays in which Griffin held on to the football as part of a packaged play and threw it.
Nobody used the play-fake in 2012 more than Washington, with Griffin as the point man on a league-high 195 dropbacks. He averaged nearly 11.7 yards per pass attempt and posted an 87.9 QBR on those throws, the third-best figure in the league behind Peyton Manning and Ryan Tannehill. In 2014, Griffin has gone to the play-fake only 35 times in five games, and while he’s completing 77.4 percent of his passes on play-fakes, it’s produced a QBR of just 52.1. At the top of the QBR charts for performance on play-action passes, mind you? Colt McCoy (first, 99.7 QBR on 10 attempts) and Kirk Cousins (fourth, 96.1 QBR on 41 attempts). Washington is just 17th in play-action frequency this season under Gruden.

 

[Stitch01]

There are a lot of things going on here, but I'd wager the chances of RGIII making the transition in playing style would have been a lot higher if he trusted his knees and still had his athleticism.

This franchise is fucked.

 

[mascho]

I don't know why Jay Gruden is getting off so easy in this mess.  Successful coaches adapt their offense (or defense) to fit the strengths of the players on their offense (or defense).  Bad coaches install "their" system regardless of whether he has players who can run it, then spends entire seasons trying to force square pegs into round holes.
 
 
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/rg3-robert-griffin-10-possible-destinations/

 
Cousins does well on play-action?
 
Weird. 

 

[dcmissle]

The answer is that RGIII himself, and through others such as his dad, has made it crystal clear that 2012 is not happening again. Indeed, recent reports indicated that RGIII went to Kyle Shanahan last year with a list of 20 plays he would NOT run again -- and in this was aided and abetted by the owner.

So Gruden's position is, you want to be a pocket QB, fine. But right now you fucking suck at that, and I'm not throwing 52 other guys under the bus for you.

Seems to me like the right call.

Edit. To expand on this, Jay Gruden ran read option with Andy effing Dalton, for God's sake.

It's Griffin's old man who said after 2012, "show me a running QB, and I'll show you a loser." And as noted above, RGIII fancies himself as Aaron Rodgers.

Faced with this, Gruden has quite sensibly decided that he's not wrecking his career with RGIII as a conventional QB. Translated -- you want to fire my ass and pay me $20 million, go ahead. I'll resurrect my career someplace else as an OC, then HC. I am not signing up for a suicide mission.

 

[Tony C]

Well, too late for him to say that now -- he did sign on to a suicide mission, he may not know it but his ship sinks with RGIII's. I seriously doubt he'll be around by the time Washington has a true franchise QB.
 
Pox on all these guys, from owner to coach to QB. Dysfunction creates dysfunction creates dysfunction, etc.

 

[Freddy Linn]

Local radio dug this oldie up, via Schefter:
 

The March night when the Redskins agreed to send three first-round picks and a second-round pick to St. Louis for the right to go up to No. 2 in the draft and select Robert Griffin III, Washington's brain trust celebrated in a style that was beyond grand. Redskins owner Daniel Snyder boarded his private plane with general manager Bruce Allen and head coach Mike Shanahan, and the men flew to the Bahamas to celebrate their franchise-altering acquisition. The men spent the weekend toasting their trade, playing golf and celebrating a deal that neither Cleveland nor Miami could get done.
 

 

Yet when word of the Redskins' weekend trip to the Bahamas filtered back to St. Louis last winter, Rams officials kiddingly wondered out loud, "They're celebrating? Maybe we didn't get enough."
 

 

[RSN Diaspora]

Heath Shuler, who went on to a substantial career in Congress and accumulated great personal wealth in real estate, was indisputably stupid in a football sense, dumber than a box full of hammers.

 
Not that this has any bearing on RGIII, but Heath Shuler served three terms in Congress. I got to know him and like him quite a bit, but I don't think that rises to "substantial."

WRT RGIII, we'll obviously never know, but I wonder how much of it was his ACL versus a lot of the other factors being discussed here. Was his game just not translatable to the pros long-term, or might a healthier RGIII been able to adapt?