Red Sox in season discussion

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

As far as what Chaim should have done? Bobby Dalbec had six good weeks of production in 2021. It may have been. A good idea to bring in a first baseman who had a better track record than Travis Shaw. JBJ spent last year in Milwaukee being the worst every day outfielder in the league.Him being handed the starting RF job without a platoon partner is borderline negligent.

I can’t recall which poster asked the question, “What was Chaim supposed to do?”, what’s the point of having anyone in the front office? His job is to anticipate issues like this. If he can’t, shame on him.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

After today's game we are 15th in run differential league wide and 7th in the AL. Sale is likely out for the season. If we do end up selling at the deadline, why not just throw Houck and Whitlock into the rotation to prep for next season?

if they weren’t afraid of how long it would take to stretch them back out and concerned about overuse, this would be a good idea.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

if they weren’t afraid of how long it would take to stretch them back out and concerned about overuse, this would be a good idea.

I'm game to put Whitlock back in the rotation regardless. Moving him back to the pen made sense when his return was coinciding with Sale's (and Wacha and Hill were still active as well). With Sale gone again, there's a hole in the rotation that I'd rather see Whitlock in than Winckowski or Crawford.

Ramping him up to 80-90 pitches should only take 2-3 starts. Figure there's maybe 12-13 turns left to take in the rotation, call it three starts to get fully ramped up, then 10 starts averaging 5-6 innings, and he'd be on track for roughly 110-120 total innings by season's end. I think that lines up with what they were hoping for at the start of the year.

 

[Ganthem]

As far as what Chaim should have done? Bobby Dalbec had six good weeks of production in 2021. It may have been. A good idea to bring in a first baseman who had a better track record than Travis Shaw. JBJ spent last year in Milwaukee being the worst every day outfielder in the league.Him being handed the starting RF job without a platoon partner is borderline negligent.

I can’t recall which poster asked the question, “What was Chaim supposed to do?”, what’s the point of having anyone in the front office? His job is to anticipate issues like this. If he can’t, shame on him.

Many players have a bad year and then rebound. Taking a swing on JBJ wasn't insane. He also had a platoon partner in JDM before he got banged up early in the season. As for a better backup then Travis Shaw sure, but when that backup proceeded to ops 700 you would still be complaining. Backups are backups because they are not good enough to be every day players. The best you can hope for when a player goes down or is ineffective is that the team has a promising prospect ready to go.

 

[YTF]

Bloom could have investigated finding replacements for guys like Bradley and Dalbec, no? What did the Yankees give up for Carpenter? JD and Boagerts aren’t the problem. The problem is that the team is routinely starting 5-6 below average offensive players each and every night; and staffed their rotation with injury prone back of the rotation pitchers. Is anyone really shocked that Rich Hill and Michael Wacha went on the DL?

Maybe not spend $21M on Paxton, Diekman, and Bradley and instead use it on guys who can play? Schwarber, Gausman, Rodon- the alternate options are plentiful.

Injuries happen, but the Rays are pretty hobbled and they just smoked the Sox. There’s always an excuse if you are looking for one.

The arguments by the Bloom fanboys/girls always seem to suggest that he did what he did because what else could have he done? How is that a legitimate defense?

I have no qualms with you questioning some of Blooms moves, but the three guys that you point out make 1/3 of Schwarber, Gausman and Rondon.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Many players have a bad year and then rebound. Taking a swing on JBJ wasn't insane. He also had a platoon partner in JDM before he got banged up early in the season. As for a better backup then Travis Shaw sure, but when that backup proceeded to ops 700 you would still be complaining. Backups are backups because they are not good enough to be every day players. The best you can hope for when a player goes down or is ineffective is that the team has a promising prospect ready to go.

Of course but a good roster builder hedges his bets. Yeah, JBJ might rebound but he hasn’t hit in years. And JD Martinez was his platoon partner? In right field, in Fenway Park? That would be a disaster.

JBJ should have been the fourth outfielder, not the starter in this team. As much as I hate saying this, he’s cooked as a full time player. He can still field excellently but his bat is bad. It wasn’t great in Boston in 2020, it was very bad in Milwaukee in 2021 and he’s bad today.

that’s a trend Bloom should have recognized. It worries me that he didn’t. YMMV.

 

[moondog80]

I wanted better options at 1B and RF too. But Bloom was working with a budget and had to go cheap and cross his fingers in a few spots.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

I have no qualms with you questioning some of Blooms moves, but the three guys that you point out make 1/3 of Schwarber, Gausman and Rondon.

I mean the money spent on those three this year could have gone to one of Schwarber, Gausman, or Rodon (or less optimistically, E-Rod or Syndergaard). The team seemed fixated with pitchers who would sign one year deals. The money spent on Paxton and Bradley suggested they cared more about future years than this one. Curious given the lack of long term money committed. It was a weird off-season.

 

[Ganthem]

Of course but a good roster builder hedges his bets. Yeah, JBJ might rebound but he hasn’t hit in years. And JD Martinez was his platoon partner? In right field, in Fenway Park? That would be a disaster.

JBJ should have been the fourth outfielder, not the starter in this team. As much as I hate saying this, he’s cooked as a full time player. He can still field excellently but his bat is bad. It wasn’t great in Boston in 2020, it was very bad in Milwaukee in 2021 and he’s bad today.

that’s a trend Bloom should have recognized. It worries me that he didn’t. YMMV.

One year doesn't make a trend. As for JDM being the platoon partner, well that was Cora's idea probably with the input of the front office. Cora seems to not mind playing JDM in the outfield which I never really understood.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

The idea of JDM playing OF didn’t make sense; who was playing DH in such a scenario? I think it was just something they said they were going to do when they were trying to create leverage against Schwarber, Suzuki, and the rest of the corner OF they didn’t sign. And look, despite the incredible ineptitude of this OF, JD has played a total of 0 innings in the field.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

Bloom could have exercised the $6 million option on Martin Perez.

 

[YTF]

I mean the money spent on those three this year could have gone to one of Schwarber, Gausman, or Rodon (or less optimistically, E-Rod or Syndergaard). The team seemed fixated with pitchers who would sign one year deals. The money spent on Paxton and Bradley suggested they cared more about future years than this one. Curious given the lack of long term money committed. It was a weird off-season.

I hated bringing Bradley back as much as anyone here, but I'm also cognizant of the fact that Bloom essentially bought a couple of prospects from the Brewers in that deal and Paxton was surely brought here with an eye to the future. And guess what, we are definitely going to need guys in the not so distant future when you look to the guys that we know are going to be gone after this season.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Many players have a bad year and then rebound. Taking a swing on JBJ wasn't insane.

JBJ didn't just have a bad year last year. He hit .163/.236/.261 for an OPS+ of an astonishingly bad 34. That's Mario Mendoza level bad. He was 31 years old last season. What were the odds that he'd rebound? He had 428 plate appearances. Nobody else in baseball with more than 185 plate appearances put a worse number than JBJ did last year. He wasn't just a player having a down year. He was the worst regular player in the major leagues by a considerable margin, at an age when he was unlikely to take step forward in his career progression.

It was fine to use our financial muscle to acquire some prospects by doing the Brewers the favor of getting this guy off their roster, although (as others have pointed out) that muscle might have been better used to acquire something else of actual value on the major league roster. What was malpractice was to just blithely assume that JBJ could be a productive regular for us.

Do you think JBJ is likely to be in the major leagues next year after these two seasons? If the Sox cut him right now, would a contender pick him up? It is a total waste of time for this guy to be on the roster, and that is Bloom's fault.

 

[YTF]

The idea of JDM playing OF didn’t make sense; who was playing DH in such a scenario? I think it was just something they said they were going to do when they were trying to create leverage against Schwarber, Suzuki, and the rest of the corner OF they didn’t sign. And look, despite the incredible ineptitude of this OF, JD has played a total of 0 innings in the field.

Who's playing DH in that scenario is the easiest fix ever. In that circumstance JDM's bat is still in the lineup and you are essentially swapping JBJ's bat for whoever DHs

 

[Ganthem]

JBJ didn't just have a bad year last year. He hit .163/.236/.261 for an OPS+ of an astonishingly bad 34. That's Mario Mendoza level bad. He was 31 years old last season. What were the odds that he'd rebound? He had 428 plate appearances. Nobody else in baseball with more than 185 plate appearances put a worse number than JBJ did last year. He wasn't just a player having a down year. He was the worst regular player in the major leagues by a considerable margin, at an age when he was unlikely to take step forward in his career progression.

It was fine to use our financial muscle to acquire some prospects by doing the Brewers the favor of getting this guy off their roster, although (as others have pointed out) that muscle might have been better used to acquire something else of actual value on the major league roster. What was malpractice was to just blithely assume that JBJ could be a productive regular for us.

Do you think JBJ is likely to be in the major leagues next year after these two seasons? If the Sox cut him right now, would a contender pick him up? It is a total waste of time for this guy to be on the roster, and that is Bloom's fault.

I think Bloom had a reasonable plan B in Duran. Taking those swings sometimes produce JBJ and sometimes they produce Wacha. A lot hasn't worked out this year, but Bloom's thought process as near as we can tell was solid while constructing this team.

 

[dhappy42]

I think Bloom had a reasonable plan B in Duran. Taking those swings sometimes produce JBJ and sometimes they produce Wacha. A lot hasn't worked out this year, but Bloom's thought process as near as we can tell was solid while constructing this team.

No problem with the plan. The plan just hasn’t worked out that well. Taking a chance on JBJ wasn’t that different from the Yankees flyer on Matt Carpenter.

 

[jon abbey]

No problem with the plan. The plan just hasn’t worked out that well. Taking a chance on JBJ wasn’t that different from the Yankees flyer on Matt Carpenter.

Although JBJ’s AAV is $12M while Carpenter is making $1M.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Although JBJ’s AAV is $12M while Carpenter is making $1M.

Yeah, that’s a key distinction here. JBJ netted 2 half decent prospects but it came at a significant cost to the payroll.

 

[Ganthem]

Yeah, that’s a key distinction here. JBJ netted 2 half decent prospects but it came at a significant cost to the payroll.

Is 12 million really significant to a team with a payroll like the SOx?

 

[BigSoxFan]

Is 12 million really significant to a team with a payroll like the SOx?

Given that they went ultra cheap at 2 key positions this year, I’d say yes. Maybe “significant” is too strong of a word but this team has a budget just like any other and we tied up some flexibility for a guy who isn’t an MLB hitter. Clearly, $12M in abstract won’t sink this team’s budget but there is an opportunity cost there.

 

[CR67dream]

Is 12 million really significant to a team with a payroll like the SOx?

I mean in the grand scheme of things it's not going to kill them, and they did land a couple of prospects as well, but it does set it apart from the Carpenter deal in a big way.

 

[RedOctober3829]

JBJ was considered a throw in and a 4th/5th OF at the time of the trade. They were expected to be in on Suzuki or another OF before spring and it never happened. Not properly replacing Renfroe’s bat is a big indictment on Bloom.

Bloom’s problem is that he’s gone to the dumpster diving well way too much for a large market team. Playing players out of position and hoping for the best isn’t going to cut it here. This is a big offseason for him. If he doesn’t vastly improve the roster, he’s going to move close to if not on the hot seat.

 

[scottyno]

JBJ should have been the fourth outfielder, not the starter in this team. As much as I hate saying this, he’s cooked as a full time player. He can still field excellently but his bat is bad. It wasn’t great in Boston in 2020, it was very bad in Milwaukee in 2021 and he’s bad today.

that’s a trend Bloom should have recognized. It worries me that he didn’t. YMMV.

He had a 116 ops+ in 2020, if that isn't great, especially for a guy that is mostly glove then nothing is

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

JBJ was considered a throw in and a 4th/5th OF at the time of the trade. They were expected to be in on Suzuki or another OF before spring and it never happened. Not properly replacing Renfroe’s bat is a big indictment on Bloom.

Bloom’s problem is that he’s gone to the dumpster diving well way too much for a large market team. Playing players out of position and hoping for the best isn’t going to cut it here. This is a big offseason for him. If he doesn’t vastly improve the roster, he’s going to move close to if not on the hot seat.

SOSH considered JBJ a backup OF but is there any evidence the Sox did? The comments by Bloom after the trade, and the actions since, suggest the plan was for him to start.

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/jackie-bradley-jr-red-sox-trade-chaim-bloom-alex-binelas-david-hamilton-prospects-mlb/

Regardless, whatever the plan was and the intention of it, at some point you have to realize it’s not working and move on!

And I totally agree on dumpster diving. They seemed to only be in on pitchers who would sign one year deals, which led to Wacha and Hill. Which has been fine, I guess, but add up the $$$ spent on Wacha, Hill, Richards, Perez, and Andriese - and is this a great strategy and ROI?

When you are only signing players to short term deals you benefit from not assuming any long term risk, but you also are going to have more volatility because you are cycling through a lot of guys, are only considering a relatively small pool of flawed players, and going to miss out on upside of having a player at fixed price for a longer period of time.

 

[Sox Puppet]

It was fine to use our financial muscle to acquire some prospects by doing the Brewers the favor of getting this guy off their roster, although (as others have pointed out) that muscle might have been better used to acquire something else of actual value on the major league roster.

Right, and I know we have to be patient with these things, but Alex Binelas is currently hitting .222/.333/.464 in Portland, while David Hamilton's got a similar .232/.310/.381 profile going. So to eat JBJ's contract to get those two prospects doesn't sound like a great allocation of resources.

 

[bosockboy]

My guess is the Renfroe deal was a combo of selling high, loving Binelas, and betting on a bounce back from JBJ. That’s all fine but you have to get a backup plan if JBJ didn’t bounce back. And sadly, he’s cooked.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

My guess is the Renfroe deal was a combo of selling high, loving Binelas, and betting on a bounce back from JBJ. That’s all fine but you have to get a backup plan if JBJ didn’t bounce back. And sadly, he’s cooked.

It was also an attempt to shore up OF defense which was dreadful last year.

 

[chawson]

I think JBJ would’ve been gone weeks ago had it not been for lengthy injuries to Kiké and Casas (which rerouted Cordero). They need a center fielder and Duran is not one (-5 DRS in 23 games).

 

[scottyno]

My guess is the Renfroe deal was a combo of selling high, loving Binelas, and betting on a bounce back from JBJ. That’s all fine but you have to get a backup plan if JBJ didn’t bounce back. And sadly, he’s cooked.

Pretty sure Duran was the backup plan, a Duran/Refsnyder platoon in right would have actaully worked out pretty well.

It was also an attempt to shore up OF defense which was dreadful last year.

Huh? I mean, I know you kind of tuned the team out the 2nd half of last year, but once they moved Kike to full time center field the outfield defense was tremendous. Verdugo in left was solid, Renfroe was average, and Kike was one of the best defensive outfielders in baseball. The only time it was bad after that was when they were trying to force Schwarber and Dalbec both into the lineup and Schwarber was playing left.

 

[cfmoran13]

I think JBJ would’ve been gone weeks ago had it not been for lengthy injuries to Kiké and Casas (which rerouted Cordero). They need a center fielder and Duran is not one (-5 DRS in 23 games).

Can we talk about Cordero for a minute?!? 0 for his last 16 with 15 K's. Dalbec is his platoon at 1B. Can we PLEEEEEASE get an effing first baseman before Baltimore is in 4th place and the Sox are 5 games out of the last Wild Card spot?!?

 

[Daniel_Son]

I mean in the grand scheme of things it's not going to kill them, and they did land a couple of prospects as well, but it does set it apart from the Carpenter deal in a big way.

I mean the other difference is that coming into 2022, JBJ was 32 years old and a year removed from a 116 OPS+ season with elite defense. There was a reasonable expectation he'd bounce back in Boston. Worst case scenario, he's a solid defensive replacement with a hot streak or two left in him. Coupled with a pair of decent prospects, that seemed like a pretty good investment at the time.

Matt Carpenter, on the other hand, is three years older and his last above average season was in 2018. I don't think anyone could've predicted he'd have the kind of season he's having. Yanks took a flyer on a player who looked cooked and caught lightning in a bottle. Nothing you can do about that but tip your cap.

 

[grimshaw]

Right, and I know we have to be patient with these things, but Alex Binelas is currently hitting .222/.333/.797 in Portland, while David Hamilton's got a similar .232/.310/.691 profile going. So to eat JBJ's contract to get those two prospects doesn't sound like a great allocation of resources.

The guy turned 22 in May. He got promoted after going .245/.345/.495 in High A. He has massively struggled in Portland (two home runs last night though!) in 75 PA, but you've got to give him some time. Hamilton was more of a lottery ticket.

I'd do the trade again. Playing JBJ this much has been the issue, not the trade itself.

 

[Steve Dillard]

Is 12 million really significant to a team with a payroll like the SOx?

Trading an "overpriced" Benintendi (or Renfroe) because they are only a smidge above replacement, to save a couple million on overpriced players, says yes. Put differently, if they took on JBJ's 19 million obligation, and then acquired a RF for 7 million (a Kike type), that's a plan. If they didn't have the "let's buy two prospects for $19 PLUS the cost of a real RF" plan, i.e., 25 million, then don't move on from a flawed but MLB average Renfroe.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

The Sox had the best OF in baseball not long ago; this year, their top OF by bWAR are Refsnyder (0.9), Hernandez (0.3), and Duran (0.2). That’s kind of insane. OF certainly seems like an organizational weak spot.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Trading an "overpriced" Benintendi (or Renfroe) because they are only a smidge above replacement, to save a couple million on overpriced players, says yes.

Benintendi muscled up, and trended down for 3 years, cratering in 2020, his age 25 season. He was due for a $3m bump in salary and will be a FA in 2023. So that's two years of possible suck from a guy who is trying to musclez his way into a big FA contract.

In exchange they got Franchy Cordero, a high-tool, low result guy, and Josh Winckowski, a potential future starter.

Benintendi went on to have an average 2021 at $6.6m, and very good 2022 for $8.5m. This year, arguably, he'd have been a good fit for the Sox, but last year with Renfroe and Verdugo. . .probably not so much.

Meanwhile, Cordero has had his ups and downs and has been an adequate stop-gap player at times, but has not found himself at the plate. His approach has changed, so one never knows. He's a FA in 2025.

Winckowski, age 24 and still a rookie, has given us 7 competitive (i.e., league average) starts on a quasi-emergency basis.

So it turned out to be what it was - a project for a project, plus a pitcher that had a good chance of being an innings eating starter.


So this idea they did it to "save a couple of million" - where is that coming from?

 

[amfox1]

Bloom could have exercised the $6 million option on Martin Perez.

Why should he have done so, based on his 2021 performance? I suppose your argument is that you knew at that time that Perez would sign with TEX for $2mm less than his BOS option, change his 2022 pitching repertoire and have a career year. If so, kudos to you.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Why should he have done so, based on his 2021 performance? I suppose your argument is that you knew at that time that Perez would sign with TEX for $2mm less than his BOS option, change his 2022 pitching repertoire and have a career year. If so, kudos to you.

Yeah, there's no way I'd criticize Bloom for letting Perez walk. This kind of performance was completely out of previous years for him.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

As it relates to Benintendi, career OPS by year: 835, 776, 830, 774, 442, 766, 786. He’s been worth 4.7 WAR for the Royals; while Franchy and Winckowski have combined for -0.2. So, not great. Seems like they bet on his terrible 52 plate appearances in ‘20 as being predictive of some kind of decline (wasn’t that the argument at the time, that they had to cash in before he got expensive and was a non-tender?) or really loved Franchy, or both? Either way, doesn’t look like a great trade, but guess Winckowski could theoretically be a mainstay in the Sox rotation for years to come.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

As it relates to Benintendi, career OPS by year: 835, 776, 830, 774, 442, 766, 786. He’s been worth 4.7 WAR for the Royals; while Franchy and Winckowski have combined for -0.2. So, not great. Seems like they bet on his terrible 52 plate appearances in ‘20 as being predictive of some kind of decline (wasn’t that the argument at the time, that they had to cash in before he got expensive and was a non-tender?) or really loved Franchy, or both? Either way, doesn’t look like a great trade, but guess Winckowski could theoretically be a mainstay in the Sox rotation for years to come.

He's in A ball, but Luis De La Rosa is looking pretty good. Half the guys they got in the deal are still in the FCL or A ball so it's way too early to make any conclusions.

 

[Rovin Romine]

As it relates to Benintendi, career OPS by year: 835, 776, 830, 774, 442, 766, 786. He’s been worth 4.7 WAR for the Royals; while Franchy and Winckowski have combined for -0.2. So, not great. Seems like they bet on his terrible 52 plate appearances in ‘20 as being predictive of some kind of decline (wasn’t that the argument at the time, that they had to cash in before he got expensive and was a non-tender?) or really loved Franchy, or both? Either way, doesn’t look like a great trade, but guess Winckowski could theoretically be a mainstay in the Sox rotation for years to come.

If you wanted to make an analysis instead of an argument, maybe you could look at Benni's WAR pattern in its entirety, which reflects his eroding defense with the Sox, or OPS+ to account for Benintendi's production relative to the league. Likewise, you certainly wouldn't use WAR to evaluate Winckowski's limited appearances. It's a purely backwards looking stat dependent on production over time, and clearly not the right tool to use here.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

If you wanted to make an analysis instead of an argument, maybe you could look at Benni's WAR pattern in its entirety, which reflects his eroding defense with the Sox, or OPS+ to account for Benintendi's production relative to the league. Likewise, you certainly wouldn't use WAR to evaluate Winckowski's limited appearances. It's a purely backwards looking stat dependent on production over time, and clearly not the right tool to use here.

Ok.

Benintendi’s WAR by year:
2.8, 4.8, 1.8, -0.1, 2.4, 2.3*

His dWAR over tine
0.6, 0.4, -0.5, 0.2, 0.3, -0.2*
*2022 STD

The difference between AB and JBJ this year is ~3 wins. AB also makes a lot less money. (Hell, the difference in JbJ and Renfroe is 2.5 wins).

I think they panicked and sold low on Benintendi. I’m skeptical of Winckowski’s ability to be terribly useful because he doesn’t strike enough guys out. But we shall see.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Ok.

Benintendi’s WAR by year:
2.8, 4.8, 1.8, -0.1, 2.4, 2.3*

His dWAR over tine
0.6, 0.4, -0.5, 0.2, 0.3, -0.2*
*2022 STD

The difference between AB and JBJ this year is ~3 wins. AB also makes a lot less money. (Hell, the difference in JbJ and Renfroe is 2.5 wins).

I think they panicked and sold low on Benintendi. I’m skeptical of Winckowski’s ability to be terribly useful because he doesn’t strike enough guys out. But we shall see.

Right, because Gambrell, LDR and Valdez are already busts. Who cares how they develop. A 19 year old pitcher in Salem currently sporting a 32.6% K rate. Pfft, big deal. Write him off. Also ignore the great luck Benny has had this season and ignore the ISO under .100.

You can not even begin to judge this deal yet.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Yeah, there's no way I'd criticize Bloom for letting Perez walk. This kind of performance was completely out of previous years for him.

Sox need to hire a Precog as GM

Right, because Gambrell, LDR and Valdez are already busts. Who cares how they develop. A 19 year old pitcher in Salem currently sporting a 32.6% K rate. Pfft, big deal. Write him off. Also ignore the great luck Benny has had this season and ignore the ISO under .100.

You can not even begin to judge this deal yet.

Hmmm. Does PiaB need a job?

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Where did I write anyone off or say the deal was a bust? That clearly won’t be known for several years. In the short term however, it has made the Boston Red Sox a worse team.

Same goes for the Renfroe-Bradley deal; we won’t know for several years. But as of now, that move has hurt the major league team significantly, no?

A lot of the moves of the last few fears have prioritized the future more than the present. Given that the Sox are a good team, I think that’s been a bit of a mistake. Others can disagree. That’s what we are doing here no?

This team has a historically bad outfield- with no outfield help on the horizon- a few years after having a great one - but we can’t talk about it, I guess?

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Where did I write anyone off or say the deal was a bust? That clearly won’t be known for several years. In the short term however, it has made the Boston Red Sox a worse team.

Same goes for the Renfroe-Bradley deal; we won’t know for several years. But as of now, that move has hurt the major league team significantly, no?

A lot of the moves of the last few fears have prioritized the future more than the present. Given that the Sox are a good team, I think that’s been a bit of a mistake. Others can disagree. That’s what we are doing here no?

This team has a historically bad outfield- with no outfield help on the horizon- a few years after having a great one - but we can’t talk about it, I guess?

You said they panicked and sold low on Benny. Based on what? The guys they wanted in the deal are in their age 19 and 20 seasons. It also ignores the fact that Benny's good year is luck aided. His underlying peripherals are terrible.

If you want to argue it made the team worse, argue that. If you want to argue the sox panicked and sold low on Benny... based on what? Just a WAG?

 

[amfox1]

Where did I write anyone off or say the deal was a bust? That clearly won’t be known for several years. In the short term however, it has made the Boston Red Sox a worse team.

Same goes for the Renfroe-Bradley deal; we won’t know for several years. But as of now, that move has hurt the major league team significantly, no?

I'm confused. Does a trade need to help a team in the short-term? If so, why would you ever trade a major league player for prospects?

Do you believe that the front-office doesn't realize the impact of trading a major league player for prospects?

Every trade of a major league player for prospects hurts the trading team in the short-term. Why do teams make those trades, then? (Hint: maybe there is a different reason for making the trade - strengthening the minor league depth, opening a spot for a free agent or a prospect, money, etc.)

You can criticize the deal, of course. Not enough value back, not the right kind of value. It was clear at the time that they were trading a player that the organization had thought had maxed out and was going to start making significantly more money for a pu-pu platter of prospects from a stronger minor league system to build up a barren system, with lower ceiling/higher floor (Winckowski, Gambrell), higher ceiling/lower floor (Cordero) and low-minors lotto ticket prospects.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

You said they panicked and sold low on Benny. Based on what? The guys they wanted in the deal are in their age 19 and 20 seasons. It also ignores the fact that Benny's good year is luck aided. His underlying peripherals are terrible.

If you want to argue it made the team worse, argue that. If you want to argue the sox panicked and sold low on Benny... based on what? Just a WAG?

I think they thought Benintendi was declining and wanted to dump him before he got expensive and would potentially be non-tendered. Was that not the argument here at the time? They were also clearly looking to cut money that off-season and this was an easy way to do it, and they surely though they could fix Franchy; and I’m sure they like the prospects.

With more info, we see that AB is still a solid, useful player (although not as good as originally hoped). Given where the team thought they were a few years ago, the AB move is totally defensible. Coupled with the JBJ trade and the lack of a FA acquisition, I think it’s harder to figure out.

It’s not the end of the world or anything but several moves have contributed to the team fielding one of the worst outfields in recent memory, with no significant outfield prospects on the horizon. I think it’s concerning.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I think they thought Benintendi was declining and wanted to dump him before he got expensive and would potentially be non-tendered. Was that not the argument here at the time? They were also clearly looking to cut money that off-season and this was an easy way to do it, and they surely though they could fix Franchy; and I’m sure they like the prospects.

With more info, we see that AB is still a solid, useful player (although not as good aand hasn’t regressed at all really.

It’s not the end of the world or anything but several moves have contributed to the team fielding one of the worst outfields in recent memory, with no significant outfield prospects on the horizon. Is this not of concern to anyone or worth discussing?

None of what you wrote describes a panic move. At worse, it describes a misevaluation of a player but I digress.

I think most people don't care to discuss it because no one wants Benny. BAbip of .365, ISO of .084. His BB% bounced back anyway so there's that. He also wasn't on the team last year and the team was just fine. He's old news.

If he was on the team in 2021, the team probably doesn't have Renfroe anyway. So then what?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I think they thought Benintendi was declining and wanted to dump him before he got expensive and would potentially be non-tendered. Was that not the argument here at the time? They were also clearly looking to cut money that off-season and this was an easy way to do it, and they surely though they could fix Franchy; and I’m sure they like the prospects.

With more info, we see that AB is still a solid, useful player (although not as good as originally hoped). Given where the team thought they were a few years ago, the AB move is totally defensible. Coupled with the JBJ trade and the lack of a FA acquisition, I think it’s harder to figure out.

It’s not the end of the world or anything but several moves have contributed to the team fielding one of the worst outfields in recent memory, with no significant outfield prospects on the horizon. I think it’s concerning.

Why should the Benintendi and JBJ trades be coupled? They happened 12+ months apart. I don't think one has anything to do with the other.

 

[irinmike]

This team is playing for next year at this point no matter what Cora or any other Red Sox officially says publicly. Therefore use Whitlock where he will be most effective moving forward. Groom him as the closer on a "real" team, unlike this year's sorry lot.