Report: A-Rod banned through 2014?
- Thread starter mabrowndog
- Start date
crow216 said:
Yeah, there was a story (I think I linked to it pages ago in this thread) from Jeff Passan (i think) who had a source close to ARod saying that all he wants now is his money. His only goal now is to get as much of the money the Yanks owe him as possible and then go invest in Florida real estate (with that particular invest target being another hilarious example of how dim his bulb must be).
The fact he is actually hitting well ( .319 in small sample) I think gives even more mental ammo to fight as much as possible. If he were 4 for 47 or something along those lines, the he's washed out banter would really raise the level for him to step down. (Not that he would but id be more fun to see the YS crowd call for his head if his play was sub par)
86spike said:
I saw a report that he made something like $15-20m in real estate investments during 2013.
Edit: $15m on one investment
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/alex-rodriguez-budding-real-estate-mogul-miami-house-sold-for-30-million-052313
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
You guys are missing the real story here.
Brian Cashman's (ex? alleged?) mistress is named Louise Meanwell. Louise Meanwell. That's like a Bond-girl or Austin Powers-girl name. I mean it's not Shagwell or Pussy Galore, but, you know, she's trying her hardest.
The A-Rod saga, like Derek Jeter's VD, is the gift that keeps on giving.
Brian Cashman's (ex? alleged?) mistress is named Louise Meanwell. Louise Meanwell. That's like a Bond-girl or Austin Powers-girl name. I mean it's not Shagwell or Pussy Galore, but, you know, she's trying her hardest.
The A-Rod saga, like Derek Jeter's VD, is the gift that keeps on giving.
You guys are missing the real story here.
Brian Cashman's (ex? alleged?) mistress is named Louise Meanwell. Louise Meanwell. That's like a Bond-girl or Austin Powers-girl name. I mean it's not Shagwell or Pussy Galore, but, you know, she's trying her hardest.
The A-Rod saga, like Derek Jeter's VD, is the gift that keeps on giving.
Maybe theres some "Aptly Surnamed" message board they met on.
Brian Cashman's (ex? alleged?) mistress is named Louise Meanwell. Louise Meanwell. That's like a Bond-girl or Austin Powers-girl name. I mean it's not Shagwell or Pussy Galore, but, you know, she's trying her hardest.
The A-Rod saga, like Derek Jeter's VD, is the gift that keeps on giving.
Maybe theres some "Aptly Surnamed" message board they met on.
glennhoffmania said:
Speaking of very bad advice, has A-Rod tuned out Boras completely? Say what you will about Scott Boras, he's usually pretty good about maximizing his clients' income (which maximizes his 5%).
HriniakPosterChild said:
They split in 2010:
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5527332
I think we may be missing the forest for the trees here. This is a sport full of vile, horrible people – racists like Ty Cobb and Tom Yawkey, scumbags like Comiskey, to say nothing of the Pete Roses and all the low-life creeps that have infected the game in one way or another. When you factor in the steroids scandal, the reputation hit to the Yankees, the money, the "wasted talent," the tabloid nature of every aspect of this story, etc., it makes me wonder:
Is ARod the biggest villain in the history of baseball?
Is ARod the biggest villain in the history of baseball?
I'd have to think Bonds would be up there as well. A lot of that may have had to do with how he acted towards the media though. Of all Alexs faults he is at least accessable to the media and provides them with plenty of quotes and soundbites (ill-advised as they may be).Van Everyman said:
Bonds on the other hand openly hated the media leading to queues of media types willing to write/speak out against him.
Jaylach said:
The problem was not that the Yankees let him play, they are only one part of the equation in the decision making process, it was that they withheld information from him that he needed to make an informed decision on whether to play. Based on what DRS said earlier, he would probably not be risking further injury, so he probably decides to play anyways.
As for the Yankees and Arod spat on his coming back from rehab, this is likely related to what transpired in October and subsequent events/discussions. Arod and his legal team had likely already brought the matter to the Yankees attention and they could see where he was going with it, so the Yankees take the opposite approach and withold him based on the MRI results and ignore the clinical symptoms after his initial feeling of discomfort (polar opposite to how they handled the labrum tear where they ignore the MRI results because he had no clinical symptoms).
This game playing at a time when the Yankees desperately needed his bat at 3B may have cost the Yankees a game or two they may regret not winning.
Anyways, I hope Arods legal team, the Yankees and MLB (and their anonymous leakers) all STFU going forward.
This little side story might give an indication of the ultimate destination of ARod's strategy.This threat of exposing other PED use on the Yankees and in MLB tells me that Alex might be willing to use the old "I was only one of many defense" to claim that his suspension is excessive and driven by MLB in collusion with the Yankees because of his contract. It is certainly better for Selig if he can tidily wrap up this package and dump it in ARod's lap. This makes it seem like the Commisioner has gone the distance to finally root out the PED problem.MentalDisabldLst said:
Last week everyone wondered why ARod's people would release documents that implicated other players as well as himself.
This road could very well get bumpy going forward. The bumps might be the players Rodriquez is willing to drive his getaway car over.
Doctor G said:
This seems more and more likely.
I don't write this to disagree with you, but to point out that the trouble with this approach is that the accused must essentially do a mea culpa. In other words, "one of many" implies you did it.
However, A-Rod isn't similarly situated to the other players involved, plus he's already used most of his defenses (see below).
In terms of overall punishment fairness, I think MLB has a good position. I just can't get around the idea that a "day for day" ban seems a fundamentally fair (if not "light") punishment. A-Rod's alleged to have used PEDs for more than 211 days - he's also alleged to have tried to stymie MLB's investigation and thus cover up way more than 211 days worth of PED use for other players as well.
In terms of unfairly punishing A-Rod for something everyone else was doing, no one else really tired to interfere with MLB's investigation. No one else came close to the numbers of PEDs and the length of time those PEDs were used for. (Unless someone did and A-Rod attempts to throw that person into the volcano to appease the MLB gods - but I think we'd have heard of that by now if it was a possibility.)
So, he's not really the same as the others. For better or worse, A-Rod is something of a superstar, a "face of baseball" figure. While he shouldn't be punished more severely for it, he's also less able to invoke some sort of "I was pressured into it" or "the better players did it" or "I fell under the influence of a superstar player" defense.
Furthermore A-Rod has no "it was a first mistake" defense - thanks to his TX PED admisssion. He also does not have a "I was caught and admitted it" defense - he clearly tried to weasel out of it.
When you think about it, A-Rod's "I was young and stupid and felt contract pressure, and everyone was doing it in the 'loosey-goosey' atmosphere of the times" press conference really shot down pretty much any subsequent "equity" defense (in the arb proceedings) he has. He said it was wrong, he regretted it, he wasn't doing it, and he wasn't going to do it again. Then he went out and did it behind everyone's backs and tried to cover it up. What's left?
I'd say in the abstract, there's really no good PR/equity position left for him to stake out, apart from: "my employer (or another party) coerced me into it" and/or "I was an addict and due to the biochemical effects the drug had on my brain, had diminished capacity to resist the drug and/or make correct decisions." And neither of those really seem to apply.
***
In various judicial proceedings there are a bunch of factors that can be invoked to mitigate punishment. Some apply only in certain scenarios. While they're not exhaustive, they are a good way to begin to think about possible equity defenses. Basically they break down into "But I've done (do) good stuff," and "But it wasn't as bad as the crime itself suggests because. . ."
Here are a few: Defendant shows full and complete cooperation with authority, Defendant was a minor participant in the conduct, Defendant's capacity to appreciate the nature of his conduct was impaired due to (mental illness/drug use/childhood abuse), the Victim had unclean hands (initiated the problem or participated in it, Defendant acted under extreme stress, Defendant was dominated by the will of another person, Defendant admitted crime before an investigation began, defendant tried to "fix" the situation independently of external pressure, the offense was committed in an unsophisticated manner and was an isolated incident for which the defendant has shown remorse, at the time of the offense the defendant was too young to appreciate the consequences of the offense, etc.
This sort of list makes intuitive sense to most of us, I think. Not all levels of guilt are the same - so not all levels of punishment should be the same.
However, A-Rod really does not seem to be able to invoke any of these.
We don't know the particulars of ARod's use. If he used only in the context of recovery from surgery he could claim there was extreme stress due to the Yankees contract. He can also claim that the chronic nature of his hip condition dictated his use of HGH at least.Rovin Romine said:
If this was prevalent among players recovering from surgery, he has every incentive in the world to point fingers and name names. He can claim that his usage was of performance enabling drugs rather than performance enhancing drugs. I don't believe this was the case. Just throwing out a hypothetical.
Guilt reguires rationalization.
It's's likely that A-Rod's actions interfered with the collection of evidence, both documents and testimony. That evidence went to between 10 and 20 MLB players using PEDs. If A-Rod had been successful, he'd have stopped MLB from sanctioning himself and others.Jnai said:
Melky ran a smokescreen - a bogus defense of himself if you will. Nothing he did actively interfered with MLB's investigation. He just gave them fake data to consider as well.
That's a material difference, both in the type of activity and the scope of what that activity affected.
Doctor G said:
True. However, there has been reporting that ARod used for "years" and took over a dozen substances at a time in a sophisticated doping regimen when he wasn't injured. While there is no therapeutic exception provision for HGH, there is one for artificial testosterone use (Mike Lowell). But in any case, you have to disclose your use pursuant to your injury or handicap.
If there truly was a culture of PED use, pursuant to injury-recovery, which was known and tolerated despite the official policy I'd like to find out about it. And so, while it seems that A-Rod was simply using to get a competitive advantage when he could otherwise play, I think "theoretical injury recovery" should be added to our (otherwise slim) list of possible ARod defenses.
However, in terms of "stress," Arod's already played the "extreme stress" card to justify his TX PED use. Hard to play it again. Especially when he negotiated his own "stressful" contract with the Yankees. He could have spent .0000001% of his salary on a good psychologist who can prescribe him something to take the edge off if needed. ("Stress" is used more in the context of, say, doing something stupid and out of character after you've found out you've been laid off and your wife is dying of cancer.)
Not sure this belongs here, and the claims are coming from someone who is most likely at least partially insane but...
popcorn.
http://tracking.si.com/2013/08/20/defendant-says-yankees-brian-cashman-misled-investigators/?sct=hp_t2_a13&eref=sihp
popcorn.
http://tracking.si.com/2013/08/20/defendant-says-yankees-brian-cashman-misled-investigators/?sct=hp_t2_a13&eref=sihp
The fun is over. A-Rod has told his legal team to stop commenting publicly. "I'm shutting it down, just focus on baseball, just baseball."
SemperFidelisSox said:
Assuming that his reported statements today don't count, the over/under on the first time that Tacopina violates this has to be what, 3 days?
Glad Arod took my advice to shut his team up.
I don't think "why you use" can be a defense. Certain PED's are not allowed for any reason per the JDA. If such a defense was possible, Arod could perhaps claim MLB's own tolerance for steroid use for many years, during which he has admitted using, requires him to continue to use to remain competitive with younger players who began their careers in the testing era and are presumed to have never used steroids. Its well known that chronic steroid use can actually shut down your natural testosterone production, and supplementing natural testosterone with synthetic is required to get you to same levels as other players. In other words, not cheating, just keeping up. This of course does not justify HGH use.
Gabe Kapler had an interesting article on BP which talked a bit about how testosterone declines with age.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=21574
I suppose Arod could also argue he needs testosterone to be on a level playing field with 25 yo and is not cheating. :lol:
Notwithstanding his alleged cheating, his performance shows a noticeable decline with age consistent with declining testosterone
age-yr OPS+
31-2007-176
32-2008-150
33-2009-138
34-2010-123
35-2011-119
36-2012-112
Now look at Player X
age-yr- OPS+
31-2007-171
32-2008-124
33-2009-102
34-2010-137
35-2011-154
36-2012-172
37-2013-164
Player X is the guy whose numbers are making a mockery of the aging curve, not Arod. Does not mean Player X is using of course, or that Arod did not.
Rovin Romine said:
I don't think "why you use" can be a defense. Certain PED's are not allowed for any reason per the JDA. If such a defense was possible, Arod could perhaps claim MLB's own tolerance for steroid use for many years, during which he has admitted using, requires him to continue to use to remain competitive with younger players who began their careers in the testing era and are presumed to have never used steroids. Its well known that chronic steroid use can actually shut down your natural testosterone production, and supplementing natural testosterone with synthetic is required to get you to same levels as other players. In other words, not cheating, just keeping up. This of course does not justify HGH use.
Gabe Kapler had an interesting article on BP which talked a bit about how testosterone declines with age.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=21574
The average male’s testosterone levels begin declining at age 20. By 30, the same man is producing 25 percent less testosterone, and the decrease in production continues through his 30s. By the time he reaches 40, he has 50 percent less testosterone production than at his peak in his early 20s.
Speaking of our most important figures, a recent edition of The Washington Post contained a piece on A-Rod’s recent decline and cited Yale economist Ray C. Fair’s mathematical model of how hitters age, derived using the stats of every batter who played at least 10 full seasons between 1921 and 2004. He uncovered that the typical peak is around age 28, even with a selective sample of hitters who aged gracefully enough to make it in the majors for a decade or more. By 29, such hitters are already in a decline. It’s worth noting that pitchers are at their best even earlier (around 26, which is when I noticed my own descent).
If we are to start somewhere in our quest to understand PEDs, it’s most likely by examining performance. Scientifically, it’s difficult to fathom players aging in reverse, as they have so often in recent years. What we see in terms of physique—muscle gain or weight loss—is far less useful as an indicator of potential use than statistics that make a mockery of the aging curve.
I suppose Arod could also argue he needs testosterone to be on a level playing field with 25 yo and is not cheating. :lol:
Notwithstanding his alleged cheating, his performance shows a noticeable decline with age consistent with declining testosterone
age-yr OPS+
31-2007-176
32-2008-150
33-2009-138
34-2010-123
35-2011-119
36-2012-112
Now look at Player X
age-yr- OPS+
31-2007-171
32-2008-124
33-2009-102
34-2010-137
35-2011-154
36-2012-172
37-2013-164
Player X is the guy whose numbers are making a mockery of the aging curve, not Arod. Does not mean Player X is using of course, or that Arod did not.
I don't think that's a reasonable way to look at it.So now it's a witchhunt for any player over 30 who has a good year?
Correlation does not imply causation. Just because the steady decline in ARods’s numbers match the steady decline in testosterone in the average male doesn’t mean that they’re connected. Even if they are, Testosterone levels drop at different rates in specific individuals, the graph you display represents an average.
The aging curve for elite ballplayers can vary widely from Jim Rice's nose dive to Hank Aaron's productive early 40s. The guys who age well tend to be less predictable from season to season, but are still capable of producing great seasons well into their late 30’s. I don’t think Ted Williams (233 OPS+ at 38) or Hank Aaron (194 OPS+ at 37) were on HGH or Winstrol, (greenies maybe) and they made a mockery of the aging curve too. The point is, there are outliers, and always will be.
Just as a note- Aaron mentions his 37 year old season as a time when he still had the reflexes to get around on a pitch, but was able to combine that with the experience of knowing what everyone would throw him in a particular situation.
Correlation does not imply causation. Just because the steady decline in ARods’s numbers match the steady decline in testosterone in the average male doesn’t mean that they’re connected. Even if they are, Testosterone levels drop at different rates in specific individuals, the graph you display represents an average.
The aging curve for elite ballplayers can vary widely from Jim Rice's nose dive to Hank Aaron's productive early 40s. The guys who age well tend to be less predictable from season to season, but are still capable of producing great seasons well into their late 30’s. I don’t think Ted Williams (233 OPS+ at 38) or Hank Aaron (194 OPS+ at 37) were on HGH or Winstrol, (greenies maybe) and they made a mockery of the aging curve too. The point is, there are outliers, and always will be.
Just as a note- Aaron mentions his 37 year old season as a time when he still had the reflexes to get around on a pitch, but was able to combine that with the experience of knowing what everyone would throw him in a particular situation.
Williams had an OPS+ of 233 in his age 38 season, a career high (after his age 22 235). Basically apropos of nothing, other than god I wish I had been born earlier.
ForceAtHome said:
Exactly, and a completely CHB approach by Sampo Gida to Sosh posting. Fuck that! I lurked here for years because I thought this site was better than that. S_G say what you want to say and don't use inuendo and snark to win your argument. If you think Ortiz is using, has used and/or is a PED poster boy, please, just say it. Otherwise STFU!
I don't know if he "is" and I pray that he's not, but to mix Ortiz into a discussion of AROD/Biogenesis that has real evidence of PED abuse is some weak ass shit... especially on a Sox message board.
Fascinating comments on Arods situation from Papi
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2013/08/21/david-ortiz-defends-alex-rodriguez-peds/2683315/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2013/08/21/david-ortiz-defends-alex-rodriguez-peds/2683315/
Sampo Gida said:
What, exactly are you trying to say?
EDIT: Why are these "fascinating" from a member of the Players Union?
Porter Fischer, the whistleblower who started all of this, has turned over all the records he took from the Biogenesis clinic to the feds.
The government now being in possession of the records and Fischer/Bosch being tied up in what is now a criminal indictment has to complicate things for MLB.
The government now being in possession of the records and Fischer/Bosch being tied up in what is now a criminal indictment has to complicate things for MLB.
It doesn't take innuendo to link Ortiz with PEDs. He tested positive in 2003. I'm sure you know this.EllisTheRimMan said:
EvilEmpire said:
Then say it. We know that nearly everyone dabbled or at least are guilty by association. I would ask you and everyone, what great/really good player in this time period is clean with 100% certainty?
This is why I think MLB went for the extended suspension and that they wanted it to happen immediately. More crap is going to come out and I think MLB hoped to be able to make the suspension permanent based on additional evidence dripping out or A-Rod being indicted/found guilty of something by the feds.SemperFidelisSox said:
One thing I've always wondered is why these guys continue to use after they get their big contract.
I learned after doing some more research that if you've been using testosterone for many years your body can stop having the ability to start back up again and make its own. (I.e your balls shrink and never grow back.)
So I wonder if some of these guys HAVE to use the synthetic stuff, which could be why Alex never gets caught in a test (levels aren't abnormal) but why he needs to associate with unsavories to keep a supply.
Just a thought.
I learned after doing some more research that if you've been using testosterone for many years your body can stop having the ability to start back up again and make its own. (I.e your balls shrink and never grow back.)
So I wonder if some of these guys HAVE to use the synthetic stuff, which could be why Alex never gets caught in a test (levels aren't abnormal) but why he needs to associate with unsavories to keep a supply.
Just a thought.
seageral said:
Maybe it's not just about the money? Maybe they want to be as good as possible?
Testosterone production does not shut down from years of steroid use if properly paired with other hormone therapy. If hormone therapy is not performed, even a single cycle of steroids can shut down testosterone production. With the amount of money these guys are making, I'm sure they are getting their drugs - and advice - from people who know what they are talking about. Hell, some of those busted have even been doctors or relatives of doctors.
EllisTheRimMan said:
Maybe it's more fair just to blame the ones who were actually caught?
If the players don't like that, they can turn on themselves.
EvilEmpire said:
Nitpicking alert, IIRC actually we don't know that. The newspaper has a list, but the MLBPA disputes that it's the correct list.
It didn't take long for ARod's presence in the Yankee lineup to bring out the whining about Ortiz, and the NYYfans rationalisation that every team has guys using PEDs. All it took to go from I never want to see him disgrace the Pinstripes again to he's our guy was a couple of HRs.EvilEmpire said:
Even if Papi's use is disputable, Manny's is not. I don't think Manny Ramirez suddenly discovered steroids only when he hit the LA scene at the tender young age of 36.
Back to the topic of the thread: A-Rod's histrionic immolation-by-proxy. I am disappointed that there have been no further plot developments in the last 24 hours. C'mon guys, we need another leak.
Back to the topic of the thread: A-Rod's histrionic immolation-by-proxy. I am disappointed that there have been no further plot developments in the last 24 hours. C'mon guys, we need another leak.
djbayko said:
People like Bosch?
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not convinced all of the users are rich men.
Pearl Wilson said:
I'm talking about the players. With an average salary of $3,213,479 and a minimum of $490K, I think they're doing alright.
Yeah, not so much. Ortiz and Manny are just reminders for those Sox fans who have been indulging in a bit of sanctimony. That's all. Thankfully, there isn't a ton of them.Doctor G said: