Revis the Jet: Plans to be part of the WH visit
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Jeff Howe @jeffphowe 16s16 seconds ago
I don't know the numbers but my understanding is the Jets had a significantly higher offer for Revis than the Patriots, source says.
I don't know the numbers but my understanding is the Jets had a significantly higher offer for Revis than the Patriots, source says.
Jeff Howe @jeffphowe 4s5 seconds ago
I was also told the Patriots did not give Revis permission to explore his value from the competition before yesterday at 4. Browner did.
I was also told the Patriots did not give Revis permission to explore his value from the competition before yesterday at 4. Browner did.
Jeff Howe @jeffphowe 6s6 seconds ago
I was also told the Patriots did not give Revis permission to explore his value from the competition before yesterday at 4. Browner did.
I was also told the Patriots did not give Revis permission to explore his value from the competition before yesterday at 4. Browner did.
The Social Chair said:
Amen. With what their bodies get put through to play football, I never begrudge a NFL player for taking the most money, particularly since the teams show zero loyalty towards them when they get too expensive or get hurt.
A number of posters here, apparently -- some of whom are debating the merits of Ron Borges' "analysis" of the situation. My point was, the media is going to focus on the specifics of the negotiation--the guaranteed money he got and the difference with what we offered--when what the Patriots were focused on was what they would have to do to the rest of the roster to fit him in under the cap. They simply couldn't given the way the Jets deal was constructed.E5 Yaz said:
One other point that should not be lost during all the noise is that, even though Revis didn't ultimately end up taking less to play with the Patriots, the Patriots have been extremely successful getting tons of players take less over the years. Revis was one example last year. McCourty is the latest. And, most of all, Brady, who has renegotiated his deal time and again.
They all do it for different reasons. McCourty because he felt most comfortable in New England. Revis to reestablish his value on the biggest stage. And Brady, because as the leader of the team, he wants to play with players worthy of his talent and drive. These are the things that the Patriots can provide that, ultimately, have more value to them than the contracts they play for alone.
I think we all hoped that the Patriots had something else to offer Revis this year that was more important to him than money -- winning, team culture, legacy, etc. But at the end of the day, he had already gotten what he wanted out of us: that chance to reestablish his value and get his last payday.
Does it make him a mercenary? Maybe. I'm honestly not sure. But to suggest that the Patriots didn't hit the jackpot already with Revis, as many are doing right now, is just wrong. They simply didn't hit it twice.
Three10toLeft said:
He's not underpaid.
Can we stop not only with the "Revis is a bugger for taking more money" talk, but also the holier-than-thou "I don't begrudge..." stuff? It's almost as bad and equally as pointless. Nobody's a working class hero for speaking up for the multi-millionaire famous athlete in his struggle against the multi-billionaire business owner. You applaud his decision, bully for you.
The narrative on this is kind of crazy. The colloquialism of the NFL as a "business" seems to miss the point fairly severely. Yes, it's a business, but that implies that teams are attempting with players to try to minimize what they pay to players. While possibly true in the micro sense, in the macro sense, teams pay their players $143 million (or whatever the cap is) each year. At least most do, and the Patriots do. And when they don't, whatever they have left over, they carry to the next year and spend it then. It's just far more accurate to say the NFL is a "jigsaw puzzle" than a business. It's not about trying to pay less than $143 million. It's about trying to get the best you can for it.
One of the things that I think gets a bit lost in the Revis discussion is that the Patriots had already borrowed $5 million from this year's cap to get him for last year. There's only so much you can put on the credit card.
One of the things that I think gets a bit lost in the Revis discussion is that the Patriots had already borrowed $5 million from this year's cap to get him for last year. There's only so much you can put on the credit card.
Charles Robinson @CharlesRobinson now
RE: Darrelle Revis: League source says #Patriots dropped out of negotiations upon hearing he was seeking $16 mil per and $40 mil guaranteed.
RE: Darrelle Revis: League source says #Patriots dropped out of negotiations upon hearing he was seeking $16 mil per and $40 mil guaranteed.
RedOctober3829 said:
To me, this and the Corsi post above suggest that the Patriots were already thinking that Revis was gone, and by not permitting him to seek out his value, sets up the basis for arguing for significant compensation from tampering.
soxhop411 said:
Well, far be it for me to question Miguel, but I think he might have this one wrong. The $14m for the Jets is over 5 years. I think negotiations with the Patriots necessarily were for the first three years, with the two years tacked on to defray salary cap. The Jets were able to sign a pay for play while the Patriots were not. The first three years of the deal with the Jets is effectively a 3/48, which is probably what Revis was asking for from the Patriots, albeit with a contract that made them almost have to cut him or renegotiate in 2018. Miguel's premise is that if the Patriots had the ability to do a pay for play contract with the same structure as the Jets agreed to, the ask still would have been $16m a year (that is, $80 million instead of $70 million). I highly doubt that.
Shane Mosely: Floyd Mayweather only fights for money( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
Floyd Mayweather: it is called prizefighting you dumb motherfucker! We are fighting for a prize
I'm having trouble connecting the dots.Corsi said:
If the Pats knew that they were out of the Revis bidding, why would they cut Browner loose?
Did they really view him as not worth the contract or not worth having in a system that was not man-to-man? And even if one or both of those is true, isn't it strange that they had no immediate plans to get a veteran CB signed? I guess you could answer that there were none on the market that they liked.
Bill went into the 2013 season with a group of young/rookie WRs. While the remaining CBs are more seasoned than that WR group and there are 6 months until the first game, I have trouble believing that he wouldn't have covered his backside better if he knew he was going to lose out on Revis.
My guess is that we do not have the full story.
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Right, Revis really wanted 16 million over the first three years, with 40 guaranteed. So, basically, he wanted 2 years at 16 guaranteed each and halfsie insurance on the 3rd season in case he was injured at that point. If healthy, he'd make 48. I think a better way to look at it is 3/48, with insurance on the final season that covered half his salary.
Edit - Actually, that third year is probably guaranteed for injury, which would make it essentially a 3/48 deal fully guaranteed, since Revis isn't falling off of a cliff far enough to cut him for half his salary in 3 years.
It may be irrational, but my hope is that Malcolm Butler ends up being the defense-equivalent player to Brady. As players who were basically overlooked, but impressed so much in training camp that the team decided to keep them on even though they already had the positions filled -- Brady as the 4th quarterback with Bledsoe at the helm, Butler as the 6th cornerback with Revis at the helm. Their stories, while different in many ways, are also eerily similar in some. Both far exceeded expectations and became Super Bowl heroes early in their careers.
We obviously saw what Butler can do in the Super Bowl. We have word from people like Browner that he caught more interceptions in practice than anyone else in the secondary. He ran a 4.40 40 time in a private workout, much faster than advertised. Seems to have quick reflexes and anecdotally can learn from his mistakes. Hopefully a few things from Revis rubbed off on Butler.
In the last few years we've had a few young cornerbacks that have showed promise but haven't lived up to it yet, at least not consistently. It's possible that one of them - Dennard, Ryan, or Butler, gets to the next level next year.
We obviously saw what Butler can do in the Super Bowl. We have word from people like Browner that he caught more interceptions in practice than anyone else in the secondary. He ran a 4.40 40 time in a private workout, much faster than advertised. Seems to have quick reflexes and anecdotally can learn from his mistakes. Hopefully a few things from Revis rubbed off on Butler.
In the last few years we've had a few young cornerbacks that have showed promise but haven't lived up to it yet, at least not consistently. It's possible that one of them - Dennard, Ryan, or Butler, gets to the next level next year.
I think the simplest explanation is likely the correct one...the Pats didnt think Browner was worth the cap number that he would cost next season and he wasnt amenable to a contract restructuring that would get him to the Pats number.TheoShmeo said:
They traded Mankins 9 days before the season or w/e with no real backup plan in mind. In 2012 they solved the CB issue midseason with the Talib trade. Their history says they dont fear not having the CB situation solved in March.
theapportioner said:
I've had similar thoughts about Butler winding up being a strong CB next year. He could also turn into a pumpkin, but today I am choosing to be optimistic.
TheoShmeo said:
Isn't the only way to think about it at this point that they didn't think Browner was worth $5.5 mil? They were shopping him, then they cut him. They at least knew there was a significant risk Revis would leave---they'd had the ability to speak to him for months and hadn't gotten anywhere (who knows to what degree they tried before last week, but it still matters). They knew where he started negotiations, and knew Jets were in the picture. I think it's really, really unlikely they were surprised by anything here.
Also, Browner was not all that good last year overall. I loved the edge he brought, but I imagine I care more about that than BB does.
drleather2001 said:
I wonder if changing the secondary scheme to fit Revis's and Browner's strengths kind of screwed the development of guys like Dennard and Ryan, though. Maybe they are more suited for zone coverage or some other scheme. But I don't look at the film and wouldn't really understand it if I did, anyway.
Trying to look on the bright side!
TheoShmeo said:
Reiss explained this the other day on Sportscenter. The Pats apparently felt that Browner's value was dependent on having a strong man converage on the other side. Without that, they would change their defensive scheme -- which makes Browner's press abilities less valuable.
Reiss said it comes down to the def schemes they wanted to play with Revis, or in the event he left
E5 Yaz said:
So it sounds like Browner was gone either way. Either he had to be sacrificed to get Revis to fit under the cap, or he wasn't going to fit in the secondary sans Revis. The story fits with the timeline of the Pats supposedly giving him permission to look elsewhere several days before free agency began. Also, Browner was signed two days after Revis was, possibly suggesting that the Patriots wouldn't have gone after him unless Revis was onboard.
What do you expect Revis to say now that he is going to play in front of Jets fans for the next few years?
Two weeks ago every "source" in Revis's camp was saying he wanted to return to the Patriots. Now he is telling a Jets reporter that he always wanted to go back to New Jersey. What has changed in that time? The Jets offered him the most money.
Is he supposed to say "I hope the Jets fan aren't too invested in narratives that are created after the fact, because let's be honest: I don't care who I play for as long as the checks don't bounce."
Of course the Patriots "had a chance." Offer the most money. They decided that wasn't the best decision for the franchise, and I have no reason to doubt them.
Two weeks ago every "source" in Revis's camp was saying he wanted to return to the Patriots. Now he is telling a Jets reporter that he always wanted to go back to New Jersey. What has changed in that time? The Jets offered him the most money.
Is he supposed to say "I hope the Jets fan aren't too invested in narratives that are created after the fact, because let's be honest: I don't care who I play for as long as the checks don't bounce."
Of course the Patriots "had a chance." Offer the most money. They decided that wasn't the best decision for the franchise, and I have no reason to doubt them.
Here's Miguel's blog post on the deal:
http://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/?p=1059
http://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/?p=1059
However, as mentioned above, I'm not sure I agree with Miguel. It's true that Revis signed for $14M AAV, but that deal looks like it's designed for three years only, with Revis expecting to be cut or to hold out after three. The AAV over the first three years is $16M.
Regarding Revis' comments: of course he's going to say those things. What else would he say? It may be true, it might be a stretch, we won't ever know. I wish we lived in a world where he could say "Umm, $40M guaranteed?! I'd be f'n crazy to turn that down" and people would nod their heads and think "of course, I'd do the exact same thing".
I thought Gasper's treatment of the topic in today's Globe was balanced and interesting. He managed to drop points that were somewhat novel (at least for me) along the way.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/11/belichick-believes-himself-more-than-revis/h8fSBv3ISuX8ZT1Ohloe0J/story.html
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/11/belichick-believes-himself-more-than-revis/h8fSBv3ISuX8ZT1Ohloe0J/story.html
I believe the $40 million is fully guaranteed not just for injury but skill as well. Small but important difference.Ed Hillel said:
According to Voilin on the radio yesterday, Patriots would only guarantee for injury. So depending on how their offer was structured it may have been a significant difference.
As you state, with the Jets contract Revis it's guaranteed 40M and very good chance at 48.
From the little we know about the Pats offer of mid 30's guaranteed for injury. Revis may have been assured of the first two years or depending on how the bonus was he may have really only been guaranteed one year.
Now, I don't see Revis skill eroding in a year but it's possible and could be a significant factor when evaluating offers.
I'm also not sure even if the offers are close that he chooses the Patriots a many assumed. Maybe but maybe not. He may just prefer NY.
Does Revis indicating he thought the NYJ were a fit all along give any evidence to the potential damages as a result of Woody's tampering? Revis shouldn't have known all along the Jets were going to open the bank account but it was the worst kept secret in the NFL.
Reiss was speculating on this yesterday. He said the Pats were not completely unhappy to lose him to the Jets because they expected the tampering case to yield compensation.amarshal2 said:
Edit: found the Reiss article. What he stays isn't as strong as what I remembered but he does think the Pats will get a draft pick for tampering.
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=bostonnew-england-patriots&id=4779020&city=boston&src=desktop
I thought he laid on the "BB believes only in himself" angle a little thick but otherwise I agree. Ultimately I think this came down to "We could keep Revis and have to gut other areas of the team," ie, the OL that protects our #1 asset, or "Make do with some of the assets we have" and hope some combination of FA signings, development and scheme (including bolstering the DL) will get us to par in the defensive backfield. Given how stacked the Pats are on the rest of the roster, that makes a lot more sense than plugging one hole only to open up another (or several others). At the end of the day, this is still a really, really good team.TheoShmeo said:
Would Kensil be the guy leading the investigation? If so, that would be awkward.
I think it's possible that damages could be significant. The tampering issues this FA season were so blatant and have received a fair bit of media coverage. If Goodell does little or nothing, then it would send a signal to the teams that a fine or lost 6th round draft pick is just a part of the "cost" of getting an unfair advantage on signing an impact free agent. If Miami was already prepared to give Suh a $114 million contract with $60 million guaranteed, a 50K fine or the loss of a 6th round pick isn't going to stop them.
Edit: I think the Jets' first round picks this year and next would be fair compensation.
I think it's possible that damages could be significant. The tampering issues this FA season were so blatant and have received a fair bit of media coverage. If Goodell does little or nothing, then it would send a signal to the teams that a fine or lost 6th round draft pick is just a part of the "cost" of getting an unfair advantage on signing an impact free agent. If Miami was already prepared to give Suh a $114 million contract with $60 million guaranteed, a 50K fine or the loss of a 6th round pick isn't going to stop them.
Edit: I think the Jets' first round picks this year and next would be fair compensation.
I think it's at least possibly interesting that the league has waited so long to address the tampering claim against Johnson. It happened in December. Maybe that's how long these things take, but another interpretation is that the league has been waiting to see what happened to Revis before deciding on how to resolve the matter. My instinct is that the Jets will receive some form of punishment, if only because Roger doesn't seem very smart and he's very black and white. What Woody did is expressly prohibited in the rules, and they even give an example that is close to word for word what Woody said. Roger is at his Ginger Hammer most vicious when it's black and white -- it's the nuance he seems to struggle with. I'm guessing we will see a late round draft pick as punishment, because I think to not do it on an obvious example sort of gives off the vibe that it's gloves off for tampering. If for any reason the Patriots can prove there was tampering over the weekend, that would probably add to it, but how do you prove that.
Could you imagine if this had been Kraft and the Patriots had ended up with the player? The shit storm would be unending.
Could you imagine if this had been Kraft and the Patriots had ended up with the player? The shit storm would be unending.
So Gasper is telling everybody that if you have better players on defense that your performance will improve. Thanks, Chris.TheoShmeo said:
He is just very smart. He said receiving coaching from BB was awesome. He said he was going home. He downplayed the border war -- it's just a rivalry. Whether home is NYC or where the money is, it doesn't much matter. He wasn't coming back.amarshal2 said:
And after a little reflection, I'm just fine with it. We won't be so cap squeezed going forward, and the construction of the 15 team will be much more interesting.
No complaints about Revis whatever. He was ideal when here and gracious enough since he left.
I mean, who knows with Goodell, but if the added cost of tampering for Revis's services is a 6th, then the Jets do it 100 times out of 100. Other teams see this and will be more brazen about it. If it gets worse, teams will have a hard time extending their best players. Let's say it's the middle of the last season before Gronk goes to free agency. Let's say that the Jets are whispering stuff like, "hey Gronk, we'll give you a 10 year 200 million contract with 100 guaranteed. But only if you stay healthy or fake an injury so you don't play the rest of the season. Gronk then goes "cool, NYC has hot chicks", decides to get Ellsbury-itis, sits out the rest of the year, and within 2 seconds of free agency signs that massive contract with the Jets.E5 Yaz said:
That's an extreme scenario but not entirely implausible if the consequences of tampering do not outweigh the benefits of doing so.
theapportioner said:
That is an absolute straw man scenario that is basically tantamount to fixing, and no longer tampering.
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